KJRH says there have been more allegations made.
This is getting more Hollywood every day.
http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=34ac9d61-ca95-4a35-aac8-85426e499587
Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts now faces more shocking allegations in a lawsuit filed against him. A second petition was filed today in district court that includes the university's Board of Regents as a defendant. Inside the petition is a scandal vulnerability assessment which contains a web of new allegations.
It claims Mrs. Roberts spent the night in the university's guest house with an underage male on 9 separate occasions.
It states there are 29 photos of Mrs. Roberts and the underage male alone in her sports car after city-wide curfew. The university's Board of Regents was added as a defendant in the lawsuit. It claims Roberts and the board gave a convicted sexual deviant unrestricted access to the students of the university as a "mentor."
It also says three days after the original lawsuit was filed, ORU and Roberts terminated ORU's financial comptroller. Then it states witnesses have reported that voluminous materials and documents were shredded and destroyed. It also quotes a taped phone call where Roberts was heard saying, "I have the deck stacked -- I am elected to three year terms and if a regent appears to give me trouble, I remove him. I stack the deck."
Channel 2 tried to contact Richard Roberts for a response to the new allegations. The reporter could not reach him.
The new allegations are not against Richard but against his wife who is slandered to the extent that she and a underage male was in the guess house on nine occasions which could be observed by 4,000 other students.
It claims the wife was hauling around an underage male, somewhere either on the campus or on the streets of Tulsa. (I believe an underage can accompany an adult during all hours' day or night.) Gather the stones and we will have a public stoning,
It claims Roberts and the board gave a convicted sexual deviant unrestricted access to the students of the university as a "mentor." (Where do you pick the line that divides the book opinion and experience to educate of the wrong way?)
Nearly every business including churches has paper shredders. Do we convict every one that has a shredder and uses it to compact the office trash?
One thing is there but is missing. It is the quilting bee where persons can sit around and gossip.
DT has always hated ORU because one person put it together when TU, an university privately owned by the Lords of the inter ring.
Most things are by design. This story reads like Vince McMahon's script writers were involved 8 months ago constructing the entire story line. Sounds like pre-cursor to another giant fund raiser for the ORU institution.
Who else from Tulsa has been reported with CNN, MSNBC, Today Show, Larry King? The River Project and the Tulsa PGA just wish thay could of had this massive International coverage.
When will the book be out? :)
I'm reminded of the 1957 movie "Peyton Place" and two songs, the 1968 hit song of Tom T. Hall's "Harper Valley PTA" and Billy Joel's 1989 "We Didn't Start the Fire"
Is this 1957 or 2007? :)
----------------------------------------------
"I want to tell you all a story 'bout a Harper Valley widowed wife
Who had a teenage daughter who attended Harper Valley Junior High
Well her daughter came home one afternoon and didn't even stop to play
She said, "Mom, I got a note here from the Harper Valley P.T.A."
The note said, "Mrs. Johnson, you're wearing your dresses way too high
It's reported you've been drinking and a-runnin' 'round with boys and going wild
And we don't believe you ought to be bringing up your little girl this way"
It was signed by the secretary, Harper Valley P.T.A.
Well, it happened that the P.T.A. was gonna meet that very afternoon
They were sure surprised when Mrs. Johnson wore her mini-skirt into the room
And as she walked up to the blackboard, I still recall the words she had to say
She said, "I'd like to address this meeting of the Harper Valley P.T.A."
Well, there's Bobby Taylor sittin' there and seven times he's asked me for a date
Mrs. Taylor sure seems to use a lot of ice whenever he's away
And Mr. Baker, can you tell us why your secretary had to leave this town?
And shouldn't widow Jones be told to keep her window shades all pulled completely down?
Well, Mr. Harper couldn't be here 'cause he stayed too long at Kelly's Bar again
And if you smell Shirley Thompson's breath, you'll find she's had a little nip of gin
Then you have the nerve to tell me you think that as a mother I'm not fit
Well, this is just a little Peyton Place and you're all Harper Valley hypocrites
No I wouldn't put you on because it really did, it happened just this way
The day my Mama socked it to the Harper Valley P.T.A.
The day my Mama socked it to the Harper Valley P.T.A."
I am sorry the story turned to sex.
I thought religion, politics, wrongful termination, fraud, and nepotism were enough.
Silly me.
TW reports; ".......the latter section are riddled with misspellings, lack of punctuation and are written with phrases that run together."
I just wanted it to be known that shadows did not compose the two amendments to the original petition before he is accused to doing so.
To the best of my knowledge, and a few labor attorneys I have posed the question to, in Oklahoma "At Will" employees find it hard to locate an attorney that is willing to file for wrongful termination on a contingency basis, as Oklahoma is an employment at will state. May find an attorney that will take that type of case on retainer however. I submit the majority of the high profile cases are a form of a "paid political campaign" of some sort as most individuals do not have the amount of free cash to fight such a case, especially while they are recently without income.
Now if there is a collective bargaining agreement, or the "at will" employee is terminated due to age discrimination, that is another story.
The other employment status categories are "Exempt" and "Non-Exempt" meaning having the power to hire and fire and not being subjected to overtime rules, but that is another area of employment labor law.
Anyone have links to other Oklahoma employment cases based on "wrongful termination" that do not involve age or collective bargaining agreement breach of contract.
As a general proposition, Oklahoma follows the "employment-at-will" doctrine. Id. at 1461. Under Oklahoma's iteration of that familiar rule, "an employment contract of indefinite duration may be terminated without cause at any time without incurring liability for breach of contract." Burk v. K-Mart Corp., 770 P.2d 24, 26 (Okla. 1989). "nder the classic statement of the at-will rule 'an employer may discharge an employee for good cause, for no cause or even for cause morally wrong, without being thereby guilty of legal wrong.'" Hayes v. Eateries, Inc., 905 P.2d 778, 781 (Okla. 1995) (quoting Burk, 770 P.2d at 26). The Oklahoma courts have carved out exceptions to the at-will principle, however, restricting the grounds on which an at-will employee may be terminated. See id. at 781-82. Thus, an implied or express contract that restricts an employer's power to terminate the employee can alter the employment relationship. See id. at 782; Black, 107 F.3d at 1461.
I'm glad that they are being exposed for the hypocrites that they are. There are too many in this town!
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
I'm glad that they are being exposed for the hypocrites that they are. There are too many in this town!
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
AMP - Isn't there some kind of whistleblowers protection law? Came with the ENRON deal? I would guess that is why. That's my first guess. Also, usually professors are tenured and have protection under that.
At will seems like a joke. Even though OK has it, it sure seems like employers are afraid to fire employees.
Did you watch the Larry King interview? They never denied spending 800 dollars a month on a phone bill nor spending fifty grand on clothes.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
Did you watch the Larry King interview? They never denied spending 800 dollars a month on a phone bill nor spending fifty grand on clothes.quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
And that makes anyone guilty? Get over yourself. This whole scandal isn't near over yet. Let's get the judicial system to do its job before passing judgment.
All of the allegations might not be true but they live an extravagant lifestyle. Are two swimming pools really necessary?
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
Did you watch the Larry King interview? They never denied spending 800 dollars a month on a phone bill nor spending fifty grand on clothes.quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
And that makes anyone guilty? Get over yourself. This whole scandal isn't near over yet. Let's get the judicial system to do its job before passing judgment.
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
All of the allegations might not be true but they live an extravagant lifestyle. Are two swimming pools really necessary?
Home team and visitors
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
All of the allegations might not be true but they live an extravagant lifestyle. Are two swimming pools really necessary?
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
Did you watch the Larry King interview? They never denied spending 800 dollars a month on a phone bill nor spending fifty grand on clothes.quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
And that makes anyone guilty? Get over yourself. This whole scandal isn't near over yet. Let's get the judicial system to do its job before passing judgment.
So now it's more than one swimming pool? Well then, let's lock them away and throw away the key on that one. Heck, the next thing Ill here is they should be prosecuted for their pool being 1ft deeper than you think it should be.
Maybe they are guilty of something. But let's wait this one out and find out instead of you passing judgement.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
So now it's more than one swimming pool? Well then, let's lock them away and throw away the key on that one. Heck, the next thing Ill here is they should be prosecuted for their pool being 1ft deeper than you think it should be.
Maybe they are guilty of something. But let's wait this one out and find out instead of you passing judgement.
Now if those TWO swimming pools also each had their own "our river yes" sign. That would mean he wouldn't be non-biased. I don't know how this adds to the conversation, just had to throw it in.
My favorite thing was the accusation that they had a 2000sq. ft. closet, in response on Larry King Mrs. Roberts said her closet "isnt even 600 Sq. Feet." Oh thank god, I was afraid they had lost touch and were not living a humble life. [;)]
Many of the allegations are probably not criminal, its the hypocritical nature that I chuckle at. For Jesus sake I need another Versachi (sp? I dont even know how to spell it...) dress! Now, add that a charity is buying such items and you can get fraud or tax evasion.
BUT, anyone can make an accusation. Lets see how it pans out. If there was a rapid move to shred evidence it certainly will only work against them. If it was standard operation procedure, then its no big deal. Similarly with all of the new accusations.
Surely this is an interesting show to watch though!
What bugs me the most is the hypocrisy.
OK, so God wants them to live well. That's great. But can't Lindsay get around town in something other than a red Mercedes Convertible and a white Lexus SUV? Wouldn't a Chrysler Town & Country minivan do the same? What the heck, she could order a power sunroof if she wants to feel the wind in her hair and sun on her face. (Actually, Lindsay, from the looks of your hair, you should probably keep the sunroof closed...)
Couldn't a 2,500 square foot home protect the Roberts family as well as the monstrosity they have now?
Wouldn't it do more good to cut the clothing budget and send the money saved somewhere where it could really do some good? What the heck, Dillard's has nice clothes, and you can get them on sale most of the time.
I'm pretty sure God didn't tell Lindsay she needed a red Mercedes. They are spending money on themselves that could/should be spent fixing that dilapidated campus, or feeding the poor, or giving scholarships to the needy.
God told me we should stop discussing this and move on. Lets see what transpires as the court date approaches. And send c_f a dollar.
Money is the route of all evil.
Send $9.95 for more information.
Two questions I've got:
What is the relevance of the salacious details in the suit filing? This is about wrongful termination, these plaintiff's are not seeking damages due to these other actions, just for wrongful termination. Sounds like Gary Richardson figured out a way to legally black-mail ORU.
Secondly:
Underage male running around w/ Lindsey Roberts. I'm not saying I was a teenage Cassanova, but I could have done a LOT better than that when I was underage. Eeeeewwww!
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Money is the route of all evil.
Send $9.95 for more information.
That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible.
As for the case on the Robert's.. I don't really know much about it & I don't care to sit there & judge them, when I know nothing about this situation..
1.) I don't watch TV (it stresses me out & makes me break out in hives & raises my blood pressure & etc- too much drama & bad stuff on there all the time, never anything good. It's either sex, drugs, murder, alcohol, T&A, cursing or bad news- the news especially stresses me out, so no thanks, I don't have time for that garbage in my life)..
2.) I used to have equestrian lessons with the Robert's girls. All 3 of the girls seemed really sweet & they never said or did anything bad to anyone. Since I knew them, I also knew Lindsay Robert's, because she was always there with her girls. It's really surprising to hear all this stuff, because she just didn't seem like that kind of person. She knew me on a first-name basis & was always giving people stuff & helping people with things. She was never mean or arrogant with anyone. So forgive me, but I'm reluctant to believe everything I hear/see on TV, because I've actually spent time with that person & that family. How about you guys? (and no, I'm not rich or anything.)
3.) How many of you have had premarital sex or had sex outside of your marriage or relationship?.. How many of you have spent money on stupid things that you don't really need? How many of you have made mistakes?
Let's go through this & think of how much you' screw up on a daily basis, shall we?...
Exodus 20:2–17
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
- Let's see here. We all screw this one up. Why? Lots of reasons. Anything can become your god. Whatever you value more than God is your god. Money, cars, wife / husband / boyfriend / girlfriend / family / friends / music / sex / etc...
Not to mention Deuteronomy 23:13 - "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and
make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."
Everyday we say the names of other gods. The days of our weeks, the names of the months, our holidays & etc - all Pagan - all come from names of other gods.
You shall not make for yourself an idol,
whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Excuse me, but what is a cross? Doesn't it usually come from wood or metal?.. What about those fish symbols? How about the dove? What about the "star of David"?... All sound like idols/symbols to me. Do you even know where the cross comes from? It's a Babylonian symbol of the Tau. As for the fish, it's symbolic of the fish-god, Dagon..
Constantine adapted most of the abominations surrounding the worship of the sun god into what is now modern Christianity. Even the sign of Mithra—the Babylonian Tau (or cross of Tammuz) – decorated the banners of the Roman legions a hundred years before the birth of Y'shua. Jews were crucified by the thousands on the cross of Mithra in the city streets of Jerusalem. They were crucified as a sacrifice to the Roman sun god. This is the emblem that Constantine chose to designate his new religion, the same emblem that decorated Roman battle banners for four centuries of conquests.
As for Constantine, he was a sun-worshipper til the day he died. He had "Sol Invictus" on his coins- which meant "Unconquered Sun" Sol Invictus being short for "Deus Sol Invictus" which meant, Unconquered Sun-God. (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus%22)
As for Dagon, the fish-god.. Philistine god of the sea.. The most humorous link I can give for that would be: http://www.xanga.com/Babylon_The_Great/506472225/item.html
You want more info? Google dagon the fish god. Tons of stuff comes up.
How's that for hypocrisy?..
I could go on & on & on about "Idols" used in "Christianity".. But I'll just list some of them.
Christmas wreaths, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, Santa Claus, Reindeer, Easter eggs, Easter bunny, Easter baskets, Easter bonnets, Crosses, the ichthys (also symbolic of dagon, the fish-god- and I see people rolling around town with those plastered all over their cars & whatnot- NICE!!!).. Even "Saint Patrick's day" has pagan idols... May day- that poll that's wrapped with ribbons.. There's so many pagan idols & gods brought into the church that it's ridiculous. People do idol worship on a daily basis & don't even realize it or think twice about it.
"
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
People bow down to Christmas trees all the time. To get their presents.. Which comes from the pagan festival of Saturnalia, where there's big feasts/banquets & gift-giving.. Why is Christmas December 25? Because it's the winter solstice and the birthday of Tammuz aka Nimrod / Amun-Ra / Odin / Aries / Ares / Bacchus / Dionysus / Eros / Hephaestus / Hermes / Pluto / Hades / Poseidon / Zeus / Kronos / Mars / Cupid / Vulcan / Mercury / Neptune / Jupiter / Saturn / Samhain / Dagon / etc.. This is also where you get "Lent" from.. Tammuz was killed when he was 40 by a boar, so people wept & gave things up a day for every year that he was alive, which was 40. This is also why most people eat an "Easter Ham" - because you're eating the thing that killed Tammuz. (Eating pig meat is certainly not something the bible tells you to do, it's not Kosher!)
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
All "Christians" do this, almost on a daily basis!!! It's misuse of God's name to sit there & go around preaching at people, telling them they're going to hell, especially when they, themselves don't even understand what "Hell" really is.. Modern Christian idea of hell comes from Hades, which is a pagan thing. I won't go into talking about Hell, because it's quite a lengthy discussion, but it's not what you probably think it is. It's not even meant for human beings (because human beings are not immortal & neither are their souls- if that were the case, we wouldn't need Jesus to give us immortality as one of his gifts upon returning to Earth)
My point is that cursing is not the only way you can misuse the name of God. You misuse it by falsely representing him, and doing things in his name that are not of him. People do that every single day.
Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
Do you even know when the sabbath is? It's not on SUNday... SUNday is actually one of Constantine's many changes to "Christianity", which has basically just become candy-coated paganism.. Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. In the bible the days begin when the sun sets, not when it rises. So if you're worshiping on SUNday, the day the sun worshipers worship their god- the sun.. How are you keeping God's sabbath that he commanded you to keep, NOT "asked" or "suggested" you to keep it, but flat out told you that you HAD to keep it?... How many of you make other people work on the sabbath?.. You go out to eat, which means people have to cook for you, they have to clean up after you, they have to wait on you, etc.. What about going to get gas? Someone's got to work that gas pump. Using your cell phone? Someone's got to monitor it & make sure you don't lose your signal. That's why Jews don't do anything on the sabbath. They prepare all their meals in advance & just chill out at home & spend time with eachother & talk about God- That's what sabbath is!
Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
How many of you have disrespected your parents? How about those of you that allow your children to disrespect you?.. By allowing that, you're cutting your children's lives short. By being disrespectful, you're cutting down the length of your own life. People rarely teach you the full commandment on that one. Most kids just roll their eyes when you say that they have to respect their parents, but what they don't realize is that their very existence and length of their life depends on it.. There's a reason you're supposed to respect your elders & it's not simply because it's the polite thing to do.
You shall not murder.
I don't think I need much of an explanation on this one. I'm sure most sane people would agree that murdering people is bad. However, when Jesus came, he brought a whole new meaning to this. He didn't make things easier by making things spiritual.. He made them harder. Now whenever you get ticked off & you think about how much you'd like to stab that guy at work, or that guy that cut you off when you were driving.. You've just committed murder in a spiritual sense. People do that everyday without thinking or even realizing it.
You shall not commit adultery.
Adultery is a 2 way street. People commit adultery all the time- they cheat on God with other gods. They cheat on their spouses spiritually and physically. If you lust after super models or hunky guys & you're married, that's committing adultery spiritually.
You shall not steal.
How many people have stolen stuff?.. How many people have even thought of stealing stuff?...
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
Oh, you mean like what we're doing with the Robert's family?.. Or the Johnson's down the street? Or that chick at work or the guy in school?.. Hmmm... Most people don't even think Gossip is a sin, but when you gossip, what are you doing?- Bearing false witness against someone.
You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
How many people have done that?...
So.. Unless you've never broken any single one of these commandments, I don't think you have the right to open your big mouth about how anyone else is wrong in what they're doing.. I also don't see what business it is of yours/mine. Why stick our noses in other people's business, when there's so much wrong with us that needs to be fixed? We shouldn't have the time to sit there & gossip about people, because we should be working on fixing our own faults, which there is obviously no shortage of.
Just to clarify, when I say "you" and "people" I'm not saying YOU personally, I'm referring to "you" as a people and myself as well. I've committed most, if not all of those sins myself, in some form or another. Not to mention that I've done the 7 things that God hates.. (Proverbs 6:16-19)
These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (10 commandments rehashed)..
~ Kongsuni
I'm of the wait and see persuasion. He is afflicted with the same disorders that most people in power are subject to. But what possessed you to obsess with this topic? Are you going to save us all? Are you an ORU student who has lost contact with the real world and is dedicated to being "in the world" but no longer "of the world"? I tire of the sanctimonious people who aren't polluted with TV and never fail to mention it in conversation. Yeah, disengaging from the world is the answer. Bury yourself in religion and evangelize. Are you rationalizing the Robert's alleged behaviors because you know them personally and never saw their off screen behaviors? Its just not clear.
I had a good friend who was professional, had wonderful manners, was raising a fine family, had tons of money, was raised in the church and lived in a gorgeous home in the burbs. Helpful to anyone and generous as well with his money. He was also a child molester. Should he also get the benefit of your rationalizations? Its okay, cause we're all sinful?
I got half way through and felt like dozing off (conditioned response from years of sermons at more formal occassions). Symbols? Hey, I used to carry a real live rabbits foot key chain when I was in grade school. How's that for misguided symbolism. All the kids did it even though we dearly loved rabbits, and it never occurred to us that real rabbits died for our fashion statement. Had we realized that and continued the practice then yeah, it would have said something about our values.
So humans suck. Our contrivances, hypocrisies and our propensity to show a lack of historical context to symbolism...suck. If we just paid more attention to 1000 year old dieties and turned off contemporary societal distractions like TV and movies, we could what...suck a little less?
Forgive me, but isn't your post just like the Harper Valley PTA song only more cerebral?
quote:
Originally posted by kongsuni
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Money is the route of all evil.
Send $9.95 for more information.
That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible.
As for the case on the Robert's.. I don't really know much about it & I don't care to sit there & judge them, when I know nothing about this situation..
1.) I don't watch TV (it stresses me out & makes me break out in hives & raises my blood pressure & etc- too much drama & bad stuff on there all the time, never anything good. It's either sex, drugs, murder, alcohol, T&A, cursing or bad news- the news especially stresses me out, so no thanks, I don't have time for that garbage in my life)..
2.) I used to have equestrian lessons with the Robert's girls. All 3 of the girls seemed really sweet & they never said or did anything bad to anyone. Since I knew them, I also knew Lindsay Robert's, because she was always there with her girls. It's really surprising to hear all this stuff, because she just didn't seem like that kind of person. She knew me on a first-name basis & was always giving people stuff & helping people with things. She was never mean or arrogant with anyone. So forgive me, but I'm reluctant to believe everything I hear/see on TV, because I've actually spent time with that person & that family. How about you guys? (and no, I'm not rich or anything.)
3.) How many of you have had premarital sex or had sex outside of your marriage or relationship?.. How many of you have spent money on stupid things that you don't really need? How many of you have made mistakes?
Let's go through this & think of how much you' screw up on a daily basis, shall we?...
Exodus 20:2–17
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
- Let's see here. We all screw this one up. Why? Lots of reasons. Anything can become your god. Whatever you value more than God is your god. Money, cars, wife / husband / boyfriend / girlfriend / family / friends / music / sex / etc...
Not to mention Deuteronomy 23:13 - "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."
Everyday we say the names of other gods. The days of our weeks, the names of the months, our holidays & etc - all Pagan - all come from names of other gods.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Excuse me, but what is a cross? Doesn't it usually come from wood or metal?.. What about those fish symbols? How about the dove? What about the "star of David"?... All sound like idols/symbols to me. Do you even know where the cross comes from? It's a Babylonian symbol of the Tau. As for the fish, it's symbolic of the fish-god, Dagon..
Constantine adapted most of the abominations surrounding the worship of the sun god into what is now modern Christianity. Even the sign of Mithra—the Babylonian Tau (or cross of Tammuz) – decorated the banners of the Roman legions a hundred years before the birth of Y'shua. Jews were crucified by the thousands on the cross of Mithra in the city streets of Jerusalem. They were crucified as a sacrifice to the Roman sun god. This is the emblem that Constantine chose to designate his new religion, the same emblem that decorated Roman battle banners for four centuries of conquests.
As for Constantine, he was a sun-worshipper til the day he died. He had "Sol Invictus" on his coins- which meant "Unconquered Sun" Sol Invictus being short for "Deus Sol Invictus" which meant, Unconquered Sun-God. (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus%22)
As for Dagon, the fish-god.. Philistine god of the sea.. The most humorous link I can give for that would be: http://www.xanga.com/Babylon_The_Great/506472225/item.html
You want more info? Google dagon the fish god. Tons of stuff comes up.
How's that for hypocrisy?..
I could go on & on & on about "Idols" used in "Christianity".. But I'll just list some of them.
Christmas wreaths, Christmas trees, Mistletoe, Santa Claus, Reindeer, Easter eggs, Easter bunny, Easter baskets, Easter bonnets, Crosses, the ichthys (also symbolic of dagon, the fish-god- and I see people rolling around town with those plastered all over their cars & whatnot- NICE!!!).. Even "Saint Patrick's day" has pagan idols... May day- that poll that's wrapped with ribbons.. There's so many pagan idols & gods brought into the church that it's ridiculous. People do idol worship on a daily basis & don't even realize it or think twice about it.
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
People bow down to Christmas trees all the time. To get their presents.. Which comes from the pagan festival of Saturnalia, where there's big feasts/banquets & gift-giving.. Why is Christmas December 25? Because it's the winter solstice and the birthday of Tammuz aka Nimrod / Amun-Ra / Odin / Aries / Ares / Bacchus / Dionysus / Eros / Hephaestus / Hermes / Pluto / Hades / Poseidon / Zeus / Kronos / Mars / Cupid / Vulcan / Mercury / Neptune / Jupiter / Saturn / Samhain / Dagon / etc.. This is also where you get "Lent" from.. Tammuz was killed when he was 40 by a boar, so people wept & gave things up a day for every year that he was alive, which was 40. This is also why most people eat an "Easter Ham" - because you're eating the thing that killed Tammuz. (Eating pig meat is certainly not something the bible tells you to do, it's not Kosher!)
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
All "Christians" do this, almost on a daily basis!!! It's misuse of God's name to sit there & go around preaching at people, telling them they're going to hell, especially when they, themselves don't even understand what "Hell" really is.. Modern Christian idea of hell comes from Hades, which is a pagan thing. I won't go into talking about Hell, because it's quite a lengthy discussion, but it's not what you probably think it is. It's not even meant for human beings (because human beings are not immortal & neither are their souls- if that were the case, we wouldn't need Jesus to give us immortality as one of his gifts upon returning to Earth)
My point is that cursing is not the only way you can misuse the name of God. You misuse it by falsely representing him, and doing things in his name that are not of him. People do that every single day.
Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
Do you even know when the sabbath is? It's not on SUNday... SUNday is actually one of Constantine's many changes to "Christianity", which has basically just become candy-coated paganism.. Sabbath is Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. In the bible the days begin when the sun sets, not when it rises. So if you're worshiping on SUNday, the day the sun worshipers worship their god- the sun.. How are you keeping God's sabbath that he commanded you to keep, NOT "asked" or "suggested" you to keep it, but flat out told you that you HAD to keep it?... How many of you make other people work on the sabbath?.. You go out to eat, which means people have to cook for you, they have to clean up after you, they have to wait on you, etc.. What about going to get gas? Someone's got to work that gas pump. Using your cell phone? Someone's got to monitor it & make sure you don't lose your signal. That's why Jews don't do anything on the sabbath. They prepare all their meals in advance & just chill out at home & spend time with eachother & talk about God- That's what sabbath is!
Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
How many of you have disrespected your parents? How about those of you that allow your children to disrespect you?.. By allowing that, you're cutting your children's lives short. By being disrespectful, you're cutting down the length of your own life. People rarely teach you the full commandment on that one. Most kids just roll their eyes when you say that they have to respect their parents, but what they don't realize is that their very existence and length of their life depends on it.. There's a reason you're supposed to respect your elders & it's not simply because it's the polite thing to do.
You shall not murder.
I don't think I need much of an explanation on this one. I'm sure most sane people would agree that murdering people is bad. However, when Jesus came, he brought a whole new meaning to this. He didn't make things easier by making things spiritual.. He made them harder. Now whenever you get ticked off & you think about how much you'd like to stab that guy at work, or that guy that cut you off when you were driving.. You've just committed murder in a spiritual sense. People do that everyday without thinking or even realizing it.
You shall not commit adultery.
Adultery is a 2 way street. People commit adultery all the time- they cheat on God with other gods. They cheat on their spouses spiritually and physically. If you lust after super models or hunky guys & you're married, that's committing adultery spiritually.
You shall not steal.
How many people have stolen stuff?.. How many people have even thought of stealing stuff?...
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
Oh, you mean like what we're doing with the Robert's family?.. Or the Johnson's down the street? Or that chick at work or the guy in school?.. Hmmm... Most people don't even think Gossip is a sin, but when you gossip, what are you doing?- Bearing false witness against someone.
You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
How many people have done that?...
So.. Unless you've never broken any single one of these commandments, I don't think you have the right to open your big mouth about how anyone else is wrong in what they're doing.. I also don't see what business it is of yours/mine. Why stick our noses in other people's business, when there's so much wrong with us that needs to be fixed? We shouldn't have the time to sit there & gossip about people, because we should be working on fixing our own faults, which there is obviously no shortage of.
Just to clarify, when I say "you" and "people" I'm not saying YOU personally, I'm referring to "you" as a people and myself as well. I've committed most, if not all of those sins myself, in some form or another. Not to mention that I've done the 7 things that God hates.. (Proverbs 6:16-19)
These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (10 commandments rehashed)..
~ Kongsuni
Sorry, guy - but that post just makes me feel "icky". Needs a dash of grace and some unconditional love.
As far as the ORU thing and the Roberts - I'm saddened by what is going on. I would not want to be in their shoes, nor would I want to be in their accusers' shoes. I stand on neither side, instead, I stand in the gap - praying.
Kongsuni:
I'm not going to bother attempting to reply to each of your biblical references as you are very carefully analyzing the wording. Such a labor is worthless. Don't forget that your divinely inspired book has been passed down orally for several hundred years, then written in Aramaic, then Greek, and then translated into Latin. Just for fun, some books were in Hebrew somewhere in the middle there. The Latin version was then transcribed from Old, to Middle and to "Modern" dialects of Latin. The translation was also altered by each Pope, King, or Prophet that felt he had something to add or to remit. Finally, the book was translated into English.
So what you are interpreting is what some despot decided you should read after it had been passed around for centuries before, edited, reworded, translated, and edited some more. So when you analyze the word "idol" (define: a material effigy that is worshiped) to find out if it includes "symbols" (define: an arbitrary sign that has acquired a conventional significance) you are engaged in an exercise in futility.
In fact, in that instance Hebrew has as many as 18 different words for "idol" ranging from "Teraphim" (meaning family idol, or a protection god for your family) to "Pesel" (meaning a metal statute worshiped as a god). Not to mention, in the best known part of the bible is the commandment Though Shalt not KILL or MURDER? Surely there is a difference - surely there is a difference but Christians can not agree on the commandment.
And I wont bother going into the all the blatant errors (Earth does not have corners, hares do not chew their cud, mustard seed is not the smallest, bats are not birds, whales are not fish, mustard plants are not trees, you cannot see the whole world from the top of any mountain) and contradictions (Samuel 31:4-6 Saul killed himself vs. Samuel 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines; Matt 1:16 says Jacob was Josephs father while Luke 3:23 says Heli was Josephs father; Lot was Abraham's nephew in Gen. 14:12 but becomes his brother by Gen. 14:14).
Either your god is really flippant with his language or the book you live your life by has been horribly corrupted by man. Don't bother fencing with the small details unless you are prepared to actually study on them. If you're lucky the overall meaning of some of the book has not been lost in translation, analogy, or modern understanding - but your attempt to define a single word and accordingly cast a stone is simply misguided.
SO... while I appreciate yours faith and your thoughts in this matter I have to disagree with your conclusion. Would not your god be outraged at the use of his temple for the accumulation of wealth? In fact, wasn't that the only time Jesus acted out in anger - when traders were using the lord for profit? I have a long, long list of sins (9 of the commandments that I can think of by the strictest of definitions [ie. false witness = lying. Lusting - adultery]), but I have never used others faith in god for my personal gain.
I've used the lords name in vain by cursing, but such an act surely pales in comparison to the vanity of using HIS name for profit. And we all know "the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." Exodus 20:7. Thus, like your god - I will not acquit the Roberts for their sin. in an attempt to atone for his sin he should disgorge his money (to me) lest he be cast into a fiery hell. Mat 18:9.
"That's not true. Jesus says to make friends with mammon (aka money).. It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Having money is not a bad thing, knowing how to make money work for you is not a bad thing.. Abraham was rich, Isaac was rich, Jacob, Joseph & David were rich.- And they were royalty on top of that. Solomon was rich (and royal).. There were quite a few extremely wealthy people in the bible."
What ever happened to it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man gaining entrance to heaven?
The Bible contains enough stories, allegories, proverbs, etc. that one can find justification for about any action, up to, and including killing another man. I've seen the Bible bastardized for personal gain in many, many ways. I'm not impuning this inspired work, I'm impuning people who have used it and God's name for nefarious gains and building extreme personal wealth on the backs of lonesome pensioneers.
"Seed faith" evangelists are up there on my list as being the worst of the worst hucksters and hustlers.
The concept and purpose of tithing is about personal sacrifice for the good of others and self-humility. However, the concept of tithing isn't limited to financial contributions. It takes very little thought to donate money. It takes a heart to donate your time or skills. Think of the the old "give a man a fish vs. teaching him to fish".
I won't sit here and deny that donations to ORM haven't gone to worthwhile missions which have provided comfort to people all over the world. There are also ORU graduates who have become better humans for their experience and education at ORU.
The Roberts are wide open for criticism, and that criticism is not done without a certain amount of self-examination, at least for me. Just because I'm a common sinner is not justification for an inspired leader of many Christians to be partaking in greed, gluttony, and "sins of the flesh". They have gained a sense of entitlement at the expense of thousands of people who believe that their contributions all go to good causes. Richard Roberts appears to have zero compassion in dealing with dissidents in his ranks and lavish spending is considered a necessity and a right.
What is truly sad is that Richard and Lindsey Roberts have evolved into celebrities and all the screwed up thinking which comes with that.
Majoity of US Currency has "In God We Trust" engraved on it.
Yes, yes it does. It was placed there after the civil war so future generations would not look back on that time period and think that those people were horrible godless pagans. Sticking that phrase on our currency has made all the difference in our war-like nature. [;)]
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
"One Nation, Under God" was to help fight communism. No one told Cuba that it mattered.
quote:
Sorry, guy - but that post just makes me feel "icky". Needs a dash of grace and some unconditional love.
I'm not a guy. :) I'm female. As for love, I don't think people have to be pushovers or something to love people. I'm not out there telling people they're going to burn in hell forever & whatnot. I was basically trying to say that no one is perfect, it's not our business what other people do, because we should be working on ourselves & how can people judge others when they aren't so hot themselves? (that's including me).. Pointing that sorta thing out (at least in my opinion) is very loving. XD The way I actually say things & the way they end up coming off online are very different, so I apologize if I sounded mean or something, I wasn't trying to be. lol I'm just a very blunt person I guess. (one of the many things I need to work on!!)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Kongsuni:
I'm not going to bother attempting to reply to each of your biblical references as you are very carefully analyzing the wording. Such a labor is worthless.
It's not like I just decided to do a study on this all of a sudden just for this subject. I've been studying for almost a decade & are just things that are common knowledge for me. :) Not much of a labor, really, just typing up some basic, standard info.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Don't forget that your divinely inspired book has been passed down orally for several hundred years, then written in Aramaic, then Greek, and then translated into Latin. Just for fun, some books were in Hebrew somewhere in the middle there. The Latin version was then transcribed from Old, to Middle and to "Modern" dialects of Latin. The translation was also altered by each Pope, King, or Prophet that felt he had something to add or to remit. Finally, the book was translated into English.
That's not entirely true. I'm not going to bother replying more than that, because it's not a theological debate. :)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
So what you are interpreting is what some despot decided you should read after it had been passed around for centuries before, edited, reworded, translated, and edited some more.
Again, not entirely true. :)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
So when you analyze the word "idol" (define: a material effigy that is worshiped) to find out if it includes "symbols" (define: an arbitrary sign that has acquired a conventional significance) you are engaged in an exercise in futility.
There's only one thing that I can remember
off the top of my head that God said for people to make, as far as a symbol goes, but they weren't to worship it.. It was a sepulcher of a serpent & they were supposed to look at it, so that the poison of these snakes that were attacking them didn't hurt them & they would be spared. There wasn't anything about crosses, fish, stars, menorahs or etc.. My belief is that people don't need symbols/idols to show their faith in God, because THEY themselves are most important symbols of their faith. There were certain things that were in the tabernacle or in the temple, ie: arc of the covenant/throne of God etc.. But people couldn't actually LOOK at that, if they did, they'd be fried. lol They also didn't worship those things, they were there for a specific reason.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
In fact, in that instance Hebrew has as many as 18 different words for "idol" ranging from "Teraphim" (meaning family idol, or a protection god for your family) to "Pesel" (meaning a metal statute worshiped as a god). Not to mention, in the best known part of the bible is the commandment Though Shalt not KILL or MURDER? Surely there is a difference - surely there is a difference but Christians can not agree on the commandment.
Yep, there are different words for idol in Hebrew. It's important to know which type that the bible is talking about. I have a few concordances that I look up words in, as it'll take me a lifetime to learn Hebrew as well as I need to, but there are major differences in the words & it's important to look them up. I try to refer back to the Hebrew/Aramaic/Chaldee/Greek as much as possible. :) I was just tossing out some basic information for folks to nibble on, not trying to win some theological debate.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
And I wont bother going into the all the blatant errors (Earth does not have corners, hares do not chew their cud, mustard seed is not the smallest, bats are not birds, whales are not fish, mustard plants are not trees, you cannot see the whole world from the top of any mountain) and contradictions (Samuel 31:4-6 Saul killed himself vs. Samuel 21:12 Saul was killed by the Philistines; Matt 1:16 says Jacob was Josephs father while Luke 3:23 says Heli was Josephs father; Lot was Abraham's nephew in Gen. 14:12 but becomes his brother by Gen. 14:14).
Those aren't blatant errors. :D There's reasons why those things were said & they can be explained fairly simply.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Either your god is really flippant with his language or the book you live your life by has been horribly corrupted by man.
If that's the case, I'm still not worried. I believe things will be straightened out upon His return. :) That's partially what the 1000 years before judgment is for! :D He does give you every opportunity possible to accept him, you know. :)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Don't bother fencing with the small details unless you are prepared to actually study on them.
That's all I do is study & they're not small details. :P A small detail to me is arguing weather Jesus ate leavened or unleavened bread at the last supper, or that John the Baptist ate grasshoppers cooked or uncooked. Those are small details (but I have witnessed people arguing over them. LOL).
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
If you're lucky the overall meaning of some of the book has not been lost in translation, analogy, or modern understanding - but your attempt to define a single word and accordingly cast a stone is simply misguided.
I don't think so, otherwise I wouldn't have said it, but thanks for your opinion. :)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
SO... while I appreciate yours faith and your thoughts in this matter I have to disagree with your conclusion. Would not your god be outraged at the use of his temple for the accumulation of wealth?
Where did you read that I thought it was okay for people to use his "temple" for accumulation of wealth?.. I didn't ever say anything like that. I just said that being rich isn't a crime & it's not. :D A lot of people are under the misconception that God wants us all to be poor, beggar type of people.. That's not true. If that's what YOU want, go for it, but there's numerous times where God put people in extremely high positions & gave them so much wealth they couldn't spend it in 100 lifetimes.
Also, God's temple is a pile of rubble in Jerusalem right now. Why do you think animal sacrifices stopped?... :P Not to mention that followers of God had to go to Jerusalem 3 times a year, to participate in 3 of the feasts. (Not all animal sacrifices are for sins- so don't get your knickers in a wad, that's not what I was saying).. There's just a huge lack of knowledge about Hebrew (NOT "Jewish") customs. Abraham was the first Hebrew. Hebrew means "he who crosses over", because he left Babylon to follow God. Through his line came the 12 tribes of Israel (Israel is Jacob's name).. Out of the 12 tribes of Israel, Judah was only ONE of them. Jews come from Judah. There's 11 other tribes out there & they're
all Hebrews. It's not JUST a "Jewish" thing.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
In fact, wasn't that the only time Jesus acted out in anger - when traders were using the lord for profit?
Yes. I never said that using God's name to make money was a good thing & I never would say that. I don't support it at all. That's why I don't go to any Christian churches. I think they're all pretty much that way. Pass the money basket around. XD
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I have a long, long list of sins (9 of the commandments that I can think of by the strictest of definitions [ie. false witness = lying. Lusting - adultery]), but I have never used others faith in god for my personal gain.
I've used the lords name in vain by cursing, but such an act surely pales in comparison to the vanity of using HIS name for profit.
Doesn't really matter how you've misused his name, the point is that you have & it's just as bad as what the Robert's are or aren't doing. (Personally, I can't say if they're guilty or not, because I wasn't there & it's not my job to judge them- or anyone else for that matter & it's certainly not my job to go around & tell everyone that they're going to rot in hell forever & ever & things like that.)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
And we all know "the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." Exodus 20:7. Thus, like your god - I will not acquit the Roberts for their sin. in an attempt to atone for his sin he should disgorge his money (to me) lest he be cast into a fiery hell. Mat 18:9.
LMAO [:D][:o)][;)] What can I say to that?... Rock on with your bad self, cannon. [8D]
~ Kongsuni
"Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?"
Friedrich Nietzsche
Wow.
While I have some seriously theological and religious differences of opinions with you Kongsuni, I am thoroughly impressed with your reasoned and well written response. Too often people stop in and post a righteousness bomb and walk away feeling they are holier than thou. I misjudged you and I apologies. I'm glad to learn that you understand the faults in your beliefs, have studied in that accord and are willing to question what you know.
Again, in spite of disagreement - thanks for a well thought out reply.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
What ever happened to it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man gaining entrance to heaven?
Nothing. :) That was an analogy, though. Basically saying that you can't buy your way into heaven. :)
As far as wealth is concerned.. Proverbs 13:18 says "Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured."
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The Bible contains enough stories, allegories, proverbs, etc. that one can find justification for about any action, up to, and including killing another man. I've seen the Bible bastardized for personal gain in many, many ways. I'm not impuning this inspired work, I'm impuning people who have used it and God's name for nefarious gains and building extreme personal wealth on the backs of lonesome pensioneers.
I can't blame you for that. I think it's wrong for these preachers to ask people for money, so they can use it themselves. I don't support it at all.. But you know what? They're the ones that will have to pay for that, not you or me. :D Ever hear that song "sucks to be you"?.. LOL Well, It sure does suck to be someone who does that, cause... They'll surely land themselves in a bit of a pickle sometime or another. :) But they definitely won't get away with it! :D
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
"Seed faith" evangelists are up there on my list as being the worst of the worst hucksters and hustlers.
Can't blame you for that. It's really horrible that a lot of these ministries take people's money.. A lot of people who don't have any money.. They call in or send off a check or something & it's those people's last bit of money... Those poor people. :(
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The concept and purpose of tithing is about personal sacrifice for the good of others and self-humility. However, the concept of tithing isn't limited to financial contributions. It takes very little thought to donate money. It takes a heart to donate your time or skills. Think of the the old "give a man a fish vs. teaching him to fish".
I agree with you! Actually, in the bible, when people "tithed", it was usually food.. Like.. People would bring some animals for sacrifices & the priests would give the parts to God that he needed/wanted for himself & then cook the animals for the village.. The only ones that actually got to keep stuff were the Levites. Some people didn't have livestock, so they'd bring some of their crops.. So the whole tribe or whatever would basically get together & have a big feast & talk about how awesome God is. That's not what modern preachers do with what they're given.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I won't sit here and deny that donations to ORM haven't gone to worthwhile missions which have provided comfort to people all over the world. There are also ORU graduates who have become better humans for their experience and education at ORU.
Yep! :D
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The Roberts are wide open for criticism, and that criticism is not done without a certain amount of self-examination, at least for me. Just because I'm a common sinner is not justification for an inspired leader of many Christians to be partaking in greed, gluttony, and "sins of the flesh". They have gained a sense of entitlement at the expense of thousands of people who believe that their contributions all go to good causes. Richard Roberts appears to have zero compassion in dealing with dissidents in his ranks and lavish spending is considered a necessity and a right.
I don't know him, so I can't say. I only had contact with the girls & Lindsay Robert's. They seemed really nice, but you never know. My dad always told me that a Christian is not who you are in public, but who you are in private.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
What is truly sad is that Richard and Lindsey Roberts have evolved into celebrities and all the screwed up thinking which comes with that.
I agree. :/ So sad.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Wow.
While I have some seriously theological and religious differences of opinions with you Kongsuni, I am thoroughly impressed with your reasoned and well written response. Too often people stop in and post a righteousness bomb and walk away feeling they are holier than thou. I misjudged you and I apologies. I'm glad to learn that you understand the faults in your beliefs, have studied in that accord and are willing to question what you know.
Again, thanks for a well thought out reply.
Oh goodness! LOL I certainly don't believe that I'm holier than anyone. Yikes. LOL It's okay for having misjudged me. It happens (it's the internet! woo hoo! XD)
I can't accept things at face value. I have to dig for myself & I can't sit there & accept something that doesn't make sense, just because someone tells me it's what I should believe. If it's the right way to believe, then there should be no problems when you question it or look for supporting evidence or whatnot. :) ie:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
[^]
~ Kongsuni
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, guy - but that post just makes me feel "icky". Needs a dash of grace and some unconditional love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not a guy. :) I'm female. As for love, I don't think people have to be pushovers or something to love people. I'm not out there telling people they're going to burn in hell forever & whatnot. I was basically trying to say that no one is perfect, it's not our business what other people do, because we should be working on ourselves & how can people judge others when they aren't so hot themselves? (that's including me).. Pointing that sorta thing out (at least in my opinion) is very loving. XD The way I actually say things & the way they end up coming off online are very different, so I apologize if I sounded mean or something, I wasn't trying to be. lol I'm just a very blunt person I guess. (one of the many things I need to work on!!)
Sorry about calling you a guy. I commend you for your obvious study habits. I may not agree with you completely, but I do agree with your bottom line assessment - it is not my personal business to judge another for their faults.
Having an opinion and passing judgment are two different things. I have an opinion, and believe that it is forged in decades of experience in ministry, study and observation. I may share that opinion with close friends and family - but not here.
It would probably be irrelevant here. Most people in Tulsa have already made up their minds about ORU, the Roberts, and ministries in general. No amount of online debate will change those folks' minds and that's OK.
Being direct is not a fault. Why, some of my best friends are direct...
"I finally found out how priests get holy water. They boil the hell out of it."
Joan Rivers
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
"I finally found out how priests get holy water. They boil the hell out of it."
Joan Rivers
[:O] LMAO [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by kongsuni
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
The Roberts are wide open for criticism, and that criticism is not done without a certain amount of self-examination, at least for me. Just because I'm a common sinner is not justification for an inspired leader of many Christians to be partaking in greed, gluttony, and "sins of the flesh". They have gained a sense of entitlement at the expense of thousands of people who believe that their contributions all go to good causes. Richard Roberts appears to have zero compassion in dealing with dissidents in his ranks and lavish spending is considered a necessity and a right.
I don't know him, so I can't say. I only had contact with the girls & Lindsay Robert's. They seemed really nice, but you never know. My dad always told me that a Christian is not who you are in public, but who you are in private.
I think it also goes along the lines of:
"If you have to tell someone you are a Christian, you likely aren't" [;)]
Sounds like we are on the same page. I guess a few of us thought you were a self-righteous hit-and-run poster.
Glad to see that we were disproved by your later replies. Stick around and join the fun on the rest of our dicussions.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I think it also goes along the lines of:
"If you have to tell someone you are a Christian, you likely aren't" [;)]
Sounds like we are on the same page. I guess a few of us thought you were a self-righteous hit-and-run poster.
Glad to see that we were disproved by your later replies. Stick around and join the fun on the rest of our dicussions.
[:I] Why thank you. [:D] Don't mind if I do! [^]
Nope, not a hit & run poster. :) I know those types, though. LOL I run a couple forums myself, so I can't blame ya for thinking that. [;)]
You all seem very nice & I'm happy to be here. :D
Best Wishes,
~ Kongsuni
I remember the Chapel service during the $8 million days. Richard stood up and told the assembled that we would 'burn' if we criticized Oral.
One sister-in-law nannied the (younger) tykes, and had nothing negative to say (but the housekeeper thought Lindsay threw tatrums.) The other sis-in-law was the (older) kids' favorite teacher at Victory and so her and bro were over for dinner, nothing wierd.
If the Robertses were really involved with some mentally ill dually addicted kids it would not be unusual for them to have extensive contact with them at odd hours.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
I remember the Chapel service during the $8 million days. Richard stood up and told the assembled that we would 'burn' if we criticized Oral.
That's a mighty strong accusation to make Tim and you either need to show proof or state it is your opinion that is what was said. Otherwise you could face a libel suit.
I would look forward to the 'discovery' phase. He did not say 'burn in hell' or 'burn in perdition,' just 'burn.'
Good enough then. You stated for a fact, not your opinion that this indeed did happen. Duly noted and hope you are accurate.
Roberts is a public figure... a suit over ANYTHING said on a message bored would be extremely difficult. Not to mention the damages portion of the trial. "Your honor, user name Tim defamed me and I want money." Judge: "Why?"
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Roberts is a public figure... a suit over ANYTHING said on a message bored would be extremely difficult. Not to mention the damages portion of the trial. "Your honor, user name Tim defamed me and I want money." Judge: "Why?"
I thought the judge would say something like: "I can't say I blame him for defaming you..."
Like Father , Like Son: Both crooks.
Saw a report that Richard has temporarily stepped down from ORU.
He should be run out of town. What a huckster. Anyone who donates to this worms ministry deserved to be ripped off. Good riddance!
He has stepped down -
http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=138125
TULSA, Okla. (AP) -- Embattled Oral Roberts University president Richard Roberts has asked the school's board of regents for a temporary leave of absence, three weeks after a lawsuit accused his family of lavish spending at donors' expense and illegal involvement in a local political campaign.
On Wednesday, Roberts, 58, said he would continue his role as chairman and CEO of Oral Roberts Ministries.
"I don't know how long this leave of absence will last, but I fully trust the members of the Board of Regents," Roberts said in a statement released by the university. "I pray and believe that in God's timing, and when the Board feels that it is appropriate, I will be back at my post as president."
The October 2 lawsuit was filed by three former ORU professors who said they were wrongfully dismissed and alleges the spending at donors' expense, including numerous home remodels and a senior trip to the Bahamas for one daughter on the ministry's dime.
It also accused Roberts of illegal involvement in a local political campaign, which would violate the university's nonprofit status.
To read the lawsuit against Roberts, click here.
Statement issued by Dr. Richard Roberts, Wednesday, October 17, 2007
The last 3 weeks have taken a serious toll on me and my family. The untrue allegations have struck a terrible blow in my heart. The untrue allegations of sexual misconduct by my wife have hurt the most. It has broken her heart and the hearts of my children that such untrue allegations could be made. Lindsay and my children have sustained heavy damage these last weeks. God is very interested in the family unit and so am I.
The plaintiffs have said "We don't know if any of these allegations are true, but they are so defaming that the Roberts won't survive." We Roberts have a strong faith in God and in what is right. We will do what is right and trust the Lord.
Today, I have asked the Board of Regents of Oral Roberts University to grant me a temporary leave of absence until such time as these matters can be resolved. I have prayed about it, and feel that it is in the best interest of my family and the University.
I have a tremendous love for the students and alumni of ORU—they are precious to God. They came here to get a quality education and to learn to hear the Voice of God. That's happening daily. Even today, other young people around the world are searching for the right college to attend. I pray that they will consider ORU. This university is academically sound, spiritually alive and physically disciplined. I don't know how long this leave of absence will last, but I fully trust the members of the Board of Regents. They are great men and women who have a deep love for this university and for me and my family. I pray and believe that in God's timing, and when the Board feels that it is appropriate, I will be back at my post as President.
Meanwhile, I will give myself afresh and anew to my family, and to prayer and the Word of God. I shall continue my role as Chairman and CEO of the Oral Roberts Ministries. I shall continue on television as I have a burning passion for the lost, the sick and the hurting of this world. I shall continue preaching and teaching God's Word and drawing people to Christ our Savior. I shall continue to write letters and books and minister to the needs of people for I have a passion for souls. Thank you for all your prayers and support; it means a great deal to me and my family.
Oh BOO HOO!
Well he only stepped down as head of the university. At least he has his evening/Sunday job still. [:o)]
It's been a tough three weeks so I think a lengthy trip to some warm, tropical climate on the school's jet with a few underage men is in order!
A true snake oil salesman just like dear old Dad. He can take his "lovely" wife and pack up for California to visit Oral. The university campus should be razed and replaced with another Cheesecake Factory.
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
The university campus should be razed and replaced with another Cheesecake Factory.
Heck, I was just hoping they'd fix some of the busted steps.
I am an adult and I have given underage males a ride in my car - however - I never spent the night with them in a guest house....
Our company name was recently used in one of those South african Scams with travelers checks. We have spent an entire month collecting paper to protect ourselves.....
If someone had allegations against me that's exactly what I would do. Create a paper trail to protect me. I would not shred anything unless I have something to hide. Nor would I fire anyone because that makes people wonder....
I guess after living through Oral's silliness, this is really not a stretch for most to believe.
If all these accusations are proven then we will have all those surplus bricks from the demolishing of the city own building, We can have a good fashion public Christian stoning. That would fill the gap between a major asset to Tulsa and the beliefs that we morally depend on in our every day lives,
cnn.com lead story
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom
cnn.com lead story
Can't find it at all on foxnews.com - hmmmmm
I don't even attend the University but I can't believe the blood-sucking people that post here. No one has any final answers over anything and yet the attacks are incredulous. I guarantee most if no one here even knows the truth to the allegations and mainly go off their own hatred/bigot statements.
The guy may be guilty. Who knows. But its not the fact some people here are just talking about it, its the "burn in Hell because I just knew you were untrustworthy" BS. Yeah, I AM a Christian. I guess that puts a mark on me too. Yeah, I believe in tithing to my church since that is the only way it can function. That's another Tulsa Now mark I guess too. Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
I don't even attend the University but I can't believe the blood-sucking people that post here. No one has any final answers over anything and yet the attacks are incredulous. I guarantee most if no one here even knows the truth to the allegations and mainly go off their own hatred/bigot statements.
We've all seen this story arc again and again involving celebrities, politicians, rich morons, and other folks who believe they're impervious to ordinary laws. The initial news breaks. Then it's 'deny, deny,deny.' Tidbits of information leak. Finally there's a heart-felt confession and promise to never engage in wrong-doing again. The much-reduced congregation of true believers moves into a smaller church.
While I agree entirely that "no one has any final answers" and that implies we should be reserving judgment about this case, let's take that to it's logical conclusion. None of us, Christians, Jews, Hindus, or even the Neo-Druid Dead Puppy Cult, know what ultimately happens after we die. So could your Christian fellows reserve judgment about the rest of us sinners, at least until after we're all dead?
It's a small thing, I know.
As usual, I see nothing but empty-filled words with generalized and biased remarks which contain no truth. All your post shows is the typical anti-Christian remarks about Christians acting holier than thou and all sinners are sub-par.
It is your own self-indulged euphoria over anyone who believes in the Christian way that deludes you and your mindset on the real world. If someone is guilty, then they are guilty. Holding over every Christian's head that they are a bunch of self-proclaimed judges of the earth is typical banter of a misinformed and quite ignorant human being.
I thought I heard something like "Judge not lest ye be judged" in the previous post. Perhaps I was mistaken.
Exactly.
Not Christian, not subject to judge not.
With that cleared up, I know for a fact he is guilty of living a lavish lifestyle off of other people's tithing. I know that his ministries are used for the enrichment of his other family members (cue daughters salaries). I know that his wife's closet is half the size of my house (per her Larry king discussion). I'm not accusing anyone of such things, its a readily known and admitted fact.
I don't know if he has crossed the line into criminal fraud. I don't know if his tithers realizes or care about his lifestyle. But it offends me that someone serving god lives in a manner that could sustain an entire town of the poor such tax exempt ministries are supposed to support.
and you can keep your pity party for everyone picking on the poor Christians. I don't care what religion you are nor what your belief system is. But when it becomes a matter of public inquiry I have a right to poke my head up there and see what's going on. When it effects public institutions (creationism at zoo), the tax code (Roberts), or the nation as a whole (the jerk from Kansas protesting soldiers funerals) it will and should generate discussion. I'd do the same thing if it were a Hindu Temple, a Jewish Synagogue, a Mosques, Mormo,. a gaggle of Krishna's, Zoroastrian, or even a Scientologist (ok, maybe I'd have to mock a Scientologist a little for the belief in Lord Helatrobus who killed the evil aliens in a volcano filled with nuclear weapons).
Then again, your complaint is a self fulfilled prophecy. You complained about being persecuted and now you have.
quote:
Rowdy wrote
Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought.
. . .
typical banter of a misinformed and quite ignorant human being
How very Christ like to call me stupid for expressing my beliefs and opinions when they differ from yours. Truly the enlightened and high road is to conform to your belief system lest I be stupid. In fact, Jesus himself told the children of Israel as he hung from the cross " Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought." Thank for for showing me how to be a better person, understand, forgive, and not cast stones.
and, for the record... I believe you should re-read Ed's post.
^agreed
Rowdy, you stated your side poorly
I'm not going to re-read all the previous posts, so don't complain if I rehash stuff.
Dear brother Roberts has now decided to "take a leave of absence" yesterday, and translating that from bullsh#t to English, it occured to me that the dear brother was asked to step down by the BOR. Innocent people do not "step down" volitionally from presidential positions. Notice that he said that he would come back when the BOR thought it to be appropriate...interesting statement coming from a person who voluntarily stepped down. Shouldn't he be able to return to the post at any time if it was truly his decision?
This is very reminiscent of another dear brother by the name of Haggard who vehimently denied any and all charges against him...then stepped down and admitted guilt. Though dear brother Roberts has not admitted guilt yet, I foresee that he soon will.
This is what happens when churches and non-profits are run like for-profit businesses. Taking part in a non-profit organization should NEVER move a person up economically. If you want money, get a real job that pays money not collected from senior citizens tithing under the auspices of a "gift to God."
Dear Brother Roberts,
Philanthropy is not a pyramid scheme.
Love,
Jesus
What concerns me is how hateful the comments became about the University and the students. All kinds of pejorative remarks have been made that show what folk are really thinking. It is one thing to call the Roberts' hypocrites or whatever, another to say the university is a sham and should be torn down, and taking joy in the debacle.
I find it hard to believe that Lindsay was dingling some 15-year-old. The allegations have nothing to do with the IRS thing, so why are they part of the suit?
Tim, who has earnestly called for the University to be torn down. Several have said it in jest in re River development of to move it downtown, but I think most have argued the University as a whole is good for Tulsa. Hell, I've actually defended it against some people outside of Tulsa who think it is a bible college and not an educational University comparable to a state school.
Personally, I have repeatedly said on this board that I hope the University survives this ordeal.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
What concerns me is how hateful the comments became about the University and the students. All kinds of pejorative remarks have been made that show what folk are really thinking. It is one thing to call the Roberts' hypocrites or whatever, another to say the university is a sham and should be torn down, and taking joy in the debacle.
I find it hard to believe that Lindsay was dingling some 15-year-old. The allegations have nothing to do with the IRS thing, so why are they part of the suit?
Most would find it hard to believe that dear brother Haggard was diddling a male prostitute.
The inclusion of the other allegations into the suit is what is commonly known in military terms as "collateral damage."
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
What concerns me is how hateful the comments became about the University and the students. All kinds of pejorative remarks have been made that show what folk are really thinking. It is one thing to call the Roberts' hypocrites or whatever, another to say the university is a sham and should be torn down, and taking joy in the debacle.
I find it hard to believe that Lindsay was dingling some 15-year-old. The allegations have nothing to do with the IRS thing, so why are they part of the suit?
Most would find it hard to believe that dear brother Haggard was diddling a male prostitute.
The inclusion of the other allegations into the suit is what is commonly known in military terms as "collateral damage."
Don't you ever see the news? Brother Haggard never had sex with the male prostitute. He just bought meth from him which he never used.
Since Brother Haggard said so, it must be true.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
What concerns me is how hateful the comments became about the University and the students. All kinds of pejorative remarks have been made that show what folk are really thinking. It is one thing to call the Roberts' hypocrites or whatever, another to say the university is a sham and should be torn down, and taking joy in the debacle.
I find it hard to believe that Lindsay was dingling some 15-year-old. The allegations have nothing to do with the IRS thing, so why are they part of the suit?
Most would find it hard to believe that dear brother Haggard was diddling a male prostitute.
The inclusion of the other allegations into the suit is what is commonly known in military terms as "collateral damage."
Don't you ever see the news? Brother Haggard never had sex with the male prostitute. He just bought meth from him which he never used.
Since Brother Haggard said so, it must be true.
Oh yeah...he just got a "massage." Maybe Mrs. Dear Brother Roberts was just up "praying" with the underaged student....
BTW, what poor guy would be caught dead with that old bag? Some kids get Deb LaFave...
I always thought Mary Kay LeTourneau was pretty hot.
Years ago I worked for the architect for ORU.
In that position we all heard a regular healthy dose of insider information concerning the habits of the Roberts. One of the things we all commonly knew was that the University was treated by the Roberts as their personal piggy bank thinly disguised as business expenses. Based upon all the stuff I used to hear I am not at all surprised at the things coming down now.
It is probably not unusual for closely held organizations such as this to have this problem.
And just one more thing. When I was a child I used to witness Oral Roberts, in his radio broadcast, beseeching my grandma to put her hands on the radio and he would heal her. During the time she had her hand on the radio, hoping against hope that her ailments would go away, the subject of money always came up. He would tell her that a part of his healing involved her tilth to God through him. Don't tell me these people are good and just. They are far from it and are more like leaches than anything else.
Oh, my grandmother was getting a government pension of sixty dollars a month at the time. Oral Roberts regrettably got a portion of that each month.
quote:
Originally posted by citizen72
And just one more thing. When I was a child I used to witness Oral Roberts beseeching my grandma to put her hands on the radio and he would heal her. During the time she had her hand on the radio, hoping against hope that her ailments would go away, the subject of money always came up. He would tell her that a part of his healing involved her tilth to God through him. Don't tell me these people are good and just. They are far from it and are more like leaches than anything else.
Oh, my grandmother was getting a government pension of sixty dollars a month at the time. Oral Roberts regrettably got a portion of that each month.
"Dear brothers and sisters: please remember Brother Roberts in your will. Then get in your bathtub, place your radio on the edge of the bathtub...."
quote:
Originally posted by citizen72
Years ago I worked for the architect for ORU.
In that position we all heard a regular healthy dose of insider information concerning the habits of the Roberts. One of the things we all commonly knew was that the University was treated by the Roberts as their personal piggy bank thinly disguised as business expenses. Based upon all the stuff I used to hear I am not at all surprised at the things coming down now.
It is probably not unusual for closely held organizations such as this to have this problem.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's really no different than what millions of sole proprietors and CEO's of family-held companies do. Personal vehicles owned by the company, ghost dinners with "customers", taking the corporate jet for two hours of business and a week's worth of playing.
Except the private companies are not doing so under the guide of helping the poor or serving god. And they pay taxes on it. THATS the difference. If Dick Roberts said "give me money so I can live phat!" and people saw fit to do so I would only me mildly annoyed (see Paris Hilton).
It may be another "I have sinned" moment.
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38691000/jpg/_38691859_swaggart238.jpg)
The eyes of the Tabloids are upon us...
quote:
Originally posted by patric
It may be another "I have sinned" moment.
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38691000/jpg/_38691859_swaggart238.jpg)
The eyes of the Tabloids are upon us...
"So what was 'Little Jimmy' doing out of his pulpit?"
(http://inspirationinc.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/church_lady.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Except the private companies are not doing so under the guide of helping the poor or serving god. And they pay taxes on it. THATS the difference. If Dick Roberts said "give me money so I can live phat!" and people saw fit to do so I would only me mildly annoyed (see Paris Hilton).
Agreed, though there's countless instances of tax fraud going on with a lot of the "perks" that come along with owning a for profit business.
Not saying it in defense of Brother Roberts, just saying this is nothing new, especially in the realm of televangelists. That's why it doesn't even take one finger for me to count the number of contributions I've made to TV ministries.
Now, Oral Roberts is living in Palm Springs. Is there something wrong with this picture? I always heard he was a poor man!
No, it is just the way of the leech.
quote:
Originally posted by citizen72
Now, Oral Roberts is living in Palm Springs. Is there something wrong with this picture? I always heard he was a poor man!
No, it is just the way of the leech.
Newport Beach. Prolly costs even more to live there.
Actually Conan I did not know about Newport Beach, but I am aware he has a home in Palm Springs valued at around $ 600,000 and a home in a secure development in Beverly Hills that is valued at around $ 2,000,000. The Beverly Hills home was purchased for him by ORU and there you go again.
He certainly has never been a Mother Marisa. Wasn't her personal vow Charity chastity and poverty to the glory of God? Seems Oral might have some explaining to do at the big gate.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Not Christian, not subject to judge not.
With that cleared up, I know for a fact he is guilty of living a lavish lifestyle off of other people's tithing. I know that his ministries are used for the enrichment of his other family members (cue daughters salaries). I know that his wife's closet is half the size of my house (per her Larry king discussion). I'm not accusing anyone of such things, its a readily known and admitted fact.
I don't know if he has crossed the line into criminal fraud. I don't know if his tithers realizes or care about his lifestyle. But it offends me that someone serving god lives in a manner that could sustain an entire town of the poor such tax exempt ministries are supposed to support.
and you can keep your pity party for everyone picking on the poor Christians. I don't care what religion you are nor what your belief system is. But when it becomes a matter of public inquiry I have a right to poke my head up there and see what's going on. When it effects public institutions (creationism at zoo), the tax code (Roberts), or the nation as a whole (the jerk from Kansas protesting soldiers funerals) it will and should generate discussion. I'd do the same thing if it were a Hindu Temple, a Jewish Synagogue, a Mosques, Mormo,. a gaggle of Krishna's, Zoroastrian, or even a Scientologist (ok, maybe I'd have to mock a Scientologist a little for the belief in Lord Helatrobus who killed the evil aliens in a volcano filled with nuclear weapons).
Then again, your complaint is a self fulfilled prophecy. You complained about being persecuted and now you have.
quote:
Rowdy wrote
Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought.
. . .
typical banter of a misinformed and quite ignorant human being
How very Christ like to call me stupid for expressing my beliefs and opinions when they differ from yours. Truly the enlightened and high road is to conform to your belief system lest I be stupid. In fact, Jesus himself told the children of Israel as he hung from the cross " Guess the IQ wasn't as high here as I thought." Thank for for showing me how to be a better person, understand, forgive, and not cast stones.
and, for the record... I believe you should re-read Ed's post.
Let's see, I made a handful of posts stating that the guy should be proven guilty in a court of law. I then stated that the attitude here is blood-thirsty towards a generalized grouping of people-in this case Christians. I don't believe I am wrong in that fact or I could copy and paste quotes galore backing that up.
So that concludes with me being the guilty party. For what, getting people to stop the generalities of certain religions and let the legal system do its job? Please. If I had taken your road, I would just swim downstream with the lot of you and state "Yeah he deserves everything he gets! Lets lynch all the Christians!"
Excuse me for not drooling over trying to find everyone who claims to be a Christian and try in vain to ripping them a new one.
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
^agreed
Rowdy, you stated your side poorly
Townsend. I stated what I stated in clear English. Therefore, I made my point and wouldn't change one word. I could care less of your critique.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by patric
It may be another "I have sinned" moment.
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38691000/jpg/_38691859_swaggart238.jpg)
The eyes of the Tabloids are upon us...
"So what was 'Little Jimmy' doing out of his pulpit?"
(http://inspirationinc.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/church_lady.jpg)
Yes, the late Phil Hartman: nobody did it better!
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
^agreed
Rowdy, you stated your side poorly
Townsend. I stated what I stated in clear English. Therefore, I made my point and wouldn't change one word. I could care less of your critique.
You could?
Yeah. If I cared, I would probably post a paragraph or two in regards to your reply. Heck, I'm probably breaking one of your records now by posting a reply that is longer than a sentence.
I thought about sticking around for a bit for a few more days to defend or readdress but realized it's pointless around here and I would rather not waste my time any further so I will just say my peace and be gone. I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.
I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it). Being judgmental on my part would be "Fry the guy, he's guilty of it all! I just knew he was screwed up like his father!" I'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, enjoy the forums. I no longer enjoy seeing the same 25 in here anymore. Two years has been way long enough for me. I have enjoyed the forums for some good information and a few insightful posts. I have appreciated the time here and I won't let the door hit me on the way out! [:)]
So, should all ministers and clerics take vows of poverty? These are people who preach a prosperity message, so we should be surprised that they live what they preach?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
So, should all ministers and clerics take vows of poverty? These are people who preach a prosperity message, so we should be surprised that they live what they preach?
No, I believe it boils down to a preacher's own humility and conscience. Something which, on the surface, seems to be lacking within the Roberts compound- based on allegations in this suit.
Since I've not been through a divinity school, a Bible school like Rhema, and have never served on the board of a church, I really don't know the business end of religion.
I don't know if there is a percent which is considered acceptible for a pastor to take as salary, or how that works. I imagine in a lot of denominaitonal protestant churches there is some sort of pay scale from the diocese (or what ever their governing system may be) based on revenue or number of regular donating members, or a set salary approved by the church board.
I've worked either straight commission or salary/bonus for close to the last 20 years. My personal compensation paradigm tells me that a set percentage of the total revenues would be acceptible as a pastor.
Personal conscience would dictate to me to not assume a mode of living that is vastly beyond the majority of my flock if I were being supported with voluntary donations. Not everyone is possessed of that sort of thinking, though. I could see where it would show humilty as a church grew more prosperous, to cut the percentage a pastor takes as his own and divert more to missions work or community outreach.
I dunno, just my rambling thoughts. I drive a nine-year old truck because I like it and live in a modest house. I live a fairly simple life and have enough left over for a few toys and a couple of nice vacations a year and I should be able to get both my daughters through college without much debt, all the while not planning on depending on Social Security when I retire. I got all my needs taken care of and most all my wants. That's all that matters to me.
I don't be-grudge anyone else who out-earns me and feels the need to have a mansion and a $75K car- that's their business. When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others to build their own wealth that it starts to stick in my craw.
What I can't figure out is where Stephanie Cantees has been at. Has anyone heard her say anything at all?
"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."
I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.
A percentage of what comes in is OK up to a certain point. If it's 10% - and the University and ministry together pull in 60 million - that's 6 million dollars. That is excessive, in my opinion. A small church that does the same and pulls in $60,000 in donations only pays the minister $6,000 - not a liveable salary here. If that church grows, where is the cut-off point?
The real point is not even that - the real point is about true accountability. Who actually "owns" the ministry? Who makes these decisions? A "family-owned-ministry" is a dangerous thing. How can anyone expect something different? I have seen this over and over for more than 30 years in ministries. Many larger family-owned-ministries have puppet boards. The board has no real authority, only responsibility. The position is one of prestige, that can be taken away if one's actions or attitudes cause the "prophet" or his family to look bad. Loyalty is expected and anything less is punished. The corprate culture is very different from a secular business, and it is that cult of personality that can eventually topple these kinds of organizations.
Many of these extravagances and "crazy-to-the-normal-guy" things are IMHO, the result and fruit of bad theology. The theology sells and is easily packaged and marketed - and that is our culture's definition of success.
The ministry or church becomes a giant machine that eats money and craps money. Much of the money is spent making more money - and very little actually goes into the mission and purpose the thing was originally organized to do. Since most of the energy is expended on making and crapping money - money becomes paramount.
Go to one of these giant churches or ministries and ask to speak to the leader. He is not available. Go and knock on the door and say you need to speak to the "big guy" because your kid is on drugs and you need prayer. Chances are, you ain't gonna see the big guy - maybe one of the under-pastors who just graduated from Bible School will see you. Next month, go in and show the secretary a check for $25,000 and ask to see the big guy. Different results. Why? Money talks and BS (people in need) walks. The mission has been eaten up by the money monster.
I could go on and on - but I won't. This is nothing new. This is why people are so hateful of "organized" religion. Most are not ranting against God - they are ranting against the machine that has has sat down on the throne in many churches and ministries.
I wish the University and the Robertses the best. This may prove to be a blessing in disguise. The monster can only be killed when we stop feeding it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
I thought about sticking around for a bit for a few more days to defend or readdress but realized it's pointless around here and I would rather not waste my time any further so I will just say my peace and be gone. I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.
I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it). Being judgmental on my part would be "Fry the guy, he's guilty of it all! I just knew he was screwed up like his father!" I'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, enjoy the forums. I no longer enjoy seeing the same 25 in here anymore. Two years has been way long enough for me. I have enjoyed the forums for some good information and a few insightful posts. I have appreciated the time here and I won't let the door hit me on the way out! [:)]
I really hope you don't go - your input is needed and welcome - at least to me. I'm sure others were following your posts and even agree with much of what you say. In my short time here, I've been personally attacked and insulted (and that was with people I was agreeing with) - and seriously thought about leaving the fools behind. But, this forum serves a good purpose, and the mods step in when someone crosses the line most of the time.
I hope you keep posting. Your opinion counts, Rowdy.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."
I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.
This is how I'm characterizing self-denial and sacrifice, I might not be attaching the proper words to the notion I'm trying to convey: "Send your seed faith money. God tells us to give and have faith and you will prosper." People sacrificing 10% of a meager fixed income instead of spending it on heat, electricity, rent, or food staples.
Certainly not everyone who gives to ORM is in those financial circumstances, but the message definitely is geared at people who are struggling when you start talking about seed faith.
One thing which has turned me off on religion is when they feel the need to explain my financial obligations to God for two or three minutes prior to passing the plate. I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [:(!]
Thanks for the explaination on finances. I agree, what about the ministry which brings in $60mm a year? Chances are that in order for a ministry to grow to that point someone would have become such a megalomaniac at that point he/she likely isn't going to have a concept of how much is enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
"When I have a problem though is when it's someone who preaches a life of self-denial and sacrifice to others..."
I didn't know he preached that - like Tim said, I thought he preached the opposite - health and prosperity. If he preaches prosperity, he can't be accused of hypocrisy for prospering. He may be called into question as to whether or not that is a valid "gospel" message or not, and it may even be argued that the end result of such a message is what is causing the problem.
This is how I'm characterizing self-denial and sacrifice, I might not be attaching the proper words to the notion I'm trying to convey: "Send your seed faith money. God tells us to give and have faith and you will prosper." People sacrificing 10% of a meager fixed income instead of spending it on heat, electricity, rent, or food staples.
Certainly not everyone who gives to ORM is in those financial circumstances, but the message definitely is geared at people who are struggling when you start talking about seed faith.
One thing which has turned me off on religion is when they feel the need to explain my financial obligations to God for two or three minutes prior to passing the plate. I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [:(!]
Thanks for the explaination on finances. I agree, what about the ministry which brings in $60mm a year? Chances are that in order for a ministry to grow to that point someone would have become such a megalomaniac at that point he/she likely isn't going to have a concept of how much is enough.
Now I see what you meant.
Boy, I love your explanation about offerings-
"I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [:(!]" Can I use that at church on Sunday? Our people would genuinely enjoy that quote.
Some of the sons and daughters taking over their parents' ministries have been raised in very well-to-do homes and have been isolated from the common man. Some feel they deserve the best and are very far removed from the pain of poverty or lack. They have never lived from paycheck-to-paycheck, or wondered where they'd get the money for the light bill. They have lived a privileged life and excess for you and I is not excess in their world.
I have lots to say about ministries saying, "Give to me so God will give to you." Instead, I'll leave that for someone else to say.
(from yahoo news) (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071006/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal%22)
quote:
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
....wow i never heard that before
quote:
Originally posted by rhymnrzn
(from yahoo news) (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071006/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal%22)
quote:
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
....wow i never heard that before
As best that I recall this was indeed what happened. Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital. Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").
It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.
Oral missed his chance to go down as a real truth teller on that one.
If he had really died that day without raising the money, can you imagine how much money and how many bible readers he would have created?
Many universities that originally started out as religious universities became more secular and independent with time. I wonder if we are seeing the first tiny signs of that happening? It may take the next generation for that to really happen in this case though. Also having ties now with, OU or OSU I believe, will have an influence.
quote:
Originally posted by billintulsa
quote:
Originally posted by rhymnrzn
(from yahoo news) (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071006/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal%22)
quote:
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
....wow i never heard that before
As best that I recall this was indeed what happened. Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital. Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").
It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.
It was "Call Him Home"...Didn't he see a 900 ft Jesus as well.....
quote:
Originally posted by billintulsa
quote:
Originally posted by rhymnrzn
(from yahoo news) (//%22http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071006/ap_on_re_us/oral_roberts_scandal%22)
quote:
TULSA, Okla. - Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."
....wow i never heard that before
As best that I recall this was indeed what happened. Oral claimed that God was going to kill him (or "take him home") if he didn't raise enough money to build what was supposed to be a hospital. Only a few years after completion, the building is now a commercial real estate called "CityPlex" (it was originally called the "City of Faith").
It was quite a story and frankly I'm surprised how many people seem to know nothing about it.
Yeah, I was here at that time. Strangely, God neglected to tell him that hospitals were overbuilt at the time with a surplus of beds available. The local hospitals pointed it out but were ignored. The 900ft Jesus made for some hilarious jokes. Certainly funnier than the current scandal.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
The 900ft Jesus made for some hilarious jokes. Certainly funnier than the current scandal.
Has anyone here collected one of the posters that were circulating then, depicting a standard yellow pedestrian crossing sign with a silhouette of Jesus and the text "900' XING AHEAD" beneath?
The photo was taken with ORU in the background, and is one of those images that always comes to mind when I stop and think we shouldnt take ourselves too seriously.
Well Rowdy, I guess you took your ball and went home. But I'll respond anyway, since I assume in your posting that you were seeking a response.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
I read some posts that basically sound like some sort of moral lynch mob out to hang and quarter a guy. I thought it quite infantile to attack someone without getting the facts first.
FACTS: Lives in very expensive house. Drives very expensive cars. Has very expensive. Wife has 600+ Sq. Ft. closet. His daughters make ~9 times the average wage working for his charity. Begs for money for his charity claiming he is helping god and the poor. Refused student requests for budget information.
No one is arguing with those facts. Those are the FACTS I used to morally lynch him.
quote:
I then respond back on some posts and say he shouldn't be labeled as guilty just yet and I am the one who is labeled the proverbial judge. Hmm, explain that one to me because that just doesn't make any sense (never mind I won't be here to read it).
YOU CALLED ANYONE WHO DISAGREED WITH YOU STUPID. That is extremely judgmental. Hello pot, this is the kettle calling to tell you that you are black.
If you want perfect agreement or you do not want to see other people's opinions; then this is certainly NOT the place for you. Sorry to see you go but if it comes down to "agree with me" or I'm leaving - then leave.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Boy, I love your explanation about offerings-
"I don't need a brow-beating, I'm 41 years old, I get the point, just pass the damn plate, I know what to do. [:(!]"
Can I use that at church on Sunday? Our people would genuinely enjoy that quote.
Go for it!
Not only did Oral claim to see the 900 foot Jesus, but he also claimed that The 900 foot Jesus lifted up the unfinished "City of Filth" towers claiming "See how easy it is for me to lift them?" Oral did indeed claim that he would be "called home" if he didn't get a ton of money to finish the hospital. Well, he didn't get it, the hospital was never completely finished and what was in operation ceased in a few years. Oral spent a lot of money on the modern design with all of the gold mirrored glass. I guess he was trying to make it look like a Las Vegas hotel casino. Oral and his bunch have always been the biggest disgrace to the city of Tulsa and probably always will be. It is heartwarming to see that Richard is following so closely in Daddy's footsteps.
I believe that Oral was dedicated to providing an educational function that would have surpassed any in the local area. While we are stoning him lets not forget the he was told that through the City of Faith it would be given the solution to cancer.
The contributions given to any organization are giving freely. The support of the city leaders were never behind the welfare of the citizens and the hospital. The idea that one man could develop a complete teaching facility outside the Lords of the City Circle became a thorn in the palm of their hands.
True, their cry was that we had enough hospital rooms for years to come died when shortly after the City of Faith was open there was a glut of expanding the present hospitals by adding more rooms.
Builders of empires have a hard time passing on to their offspring's the drive that stimulated the production of the acts they create. Like workers of the city they look at the enormous income and in the name of the city's being so fortunate as to have their leadership they are able to set their own salaries.
The acts of Richard wife, proven or unproven, displayed before the public are accusations that by all moral rights have no place in the impending action before a court. Not only do they destroy before the public the marriage ideals but in doing so many seek to cut off the funding to ORU and undermine the integrity of an asset to the City of Tulsa.
Posters would seek to destroy those who in their final need for comforting, turn to the creator as a resource. From ones observation Oral could have the keys to the pearly gates in hand, not the leash to the golden calf of Aaron.
Oral's back in town:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071022_1__OralR64430
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Oral's back in town:
He's here for Halloween.
Just when you thought it was safe to let the children outside.
I am trying to choose the size of the container that will be needed to hold the number of stones for the public stoning which will be limited to those without sin to participate. When you select your stone make sure it represents your life style.
How large of a container will be necessary?
Watch out... he may ask your kids for money, somehow making them think that by forking over the cash, their parents' souls may be saved... I'm sorry, that's horrible. I stand by what I said, but that's horrible.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
I am trying to choose the size of the container that will be needed to hold the number of stones for the public stoning which will be limited to those without sin to participate. When you select your stone make sure it represents your life style.
I recently had some stones removed...(gall, kidney and flint, I believe).
Can those without stones cast the first sin?
Woah now shadows, you old hippie, I just said he was here for Halloween. I didn't say anything about Oral getting stoned.
Only heads get stoned.
Oral never taught that donations buy salvation, that would be the mideval Catholic Church.
New Problems? Maybe?
From KTUL (//%22http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1007/466693.html%22)
quote:
While Oral Roberts University is engulfed in accusations of lavish spending by its president, the chairman of the school's board of regents says the school is facing a crippling debt load. Regents Chairman George Pearsons says the ongoing maintenance costs and low financial support from donors have put Oral Roberts University $55 million in debt.
University president Richard Roberts has taken a temporary leave of absence while fighting a lawsuit claiming out-of-control spending.
Meanwhile, his father, Oral Roberts, has returned to Oklahoma from California to take a greater role in guiding the school he founded in 1963.
The university reported nearly $76 million in revenue in 2005, and one former regent said its endowment once approached $60 million.
The school did not respond to questions Wednesday about the exact size of its endowment, but published reports have estimated it at about $33 million.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
New Problems? Maybe?
From KTUL (//%22http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1007/466693.html%22)
quote:
While Oral Roberts University is engulfed in accusations of lavish spending by its president, the chairman of the school's board of regents says the school is facing a crippling debt load. Regents Chairman George Pearsons says the ongoing maintenance costs and low financial support from donors have put Oral Roberts University $55 million in debt.
University president Richard Roberts has taken a temporary leave of absence while fighting a lawsuit claiming out-of-control spending.
Meanwhile, his father, Oral Roberts, has returned to Oklahoma from California to take a greater role in guiding the school he founded in 1963.
The university reported nearly $76 million in revenue in 2005, and one former regent said its endowment once approached $60 million.
The school did not respond to questions Wednesday about the exact size of its endowment, but published reports have estimated it at about $33 million.
Whoops, sounds like the fecal matter is about to make contact with the oscillating cooling device.
Yikes. Salaries for most of the ORU staffers are already cut to the bone.
Does the word "bankruptcy" come to mind? Or "reorganization"?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Oral never taught that donations buy salvation, that would be the mideval Catholic Church.
I know, I know... it was a reflection of the Catholic Church. [:D] Anywho, the televangelist mode is to deny the problem or blame someone else. I just hope they will bear the brunt of the blame and reorganize (namely themselves).
quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
quote:
Originally posted by oasis812005
Did you watch the Larry King interview? They never denied spending 800 dollars a month on a phone bill nor spending fifty grand on clothes.quote:
Originally posted by Rowdy
Someone makes an accusation and you label them guilty? So if I call you a horse's rear does that make me right? Its people like you I hope never sit in a jury.
And that makes anyone guilty? Get over yourself. This whole scandal isn't near over yet. Let's get the judicial system to do its job before passing judgment.
Well said.
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
What bugs me the most is the hypocrisy.
OK, so God wants them to live well. That's great. But can't Lindsay get around town in something other than a red Mercedes Convertible and a white Lexus SUV? Wouldn't a Chrysler Town & Country minivan do the same? What the heck, she could order a power sunroof if she wants to feel the wind in her hair and sun on her face. (Actually, Lindsay, from the looks of your hair, you should probably keep the sunroof closed...)
Couldn't a 2,500 square foot home protect the Roberts family as well as the monstrosity they have now?
Wouldn't it do more good to cut the clothing budget and send the money saved somewhere where it could really do some good? What the heck, Dillard's has nice clothes, and you can get them on sale most of the time.
I'm pretty sure God didn't tell Lindsay she needed a red Mercedes. They are spending money on themselves that could/should be spent fixing that dilapidated campus, or feeding the poor, or giving scholarships to the needy.
That could apply to all of us. Who needs iPods, cell phones, vacations, designer handbags, etc.? Why don't we give that money to the poor? Why should the Robert's family be the only ones expected to do so? If people are sending money to them, that's not the Robert's problem... if anyone sent money to me, I'd take it, too!
quote:
Originally posted by mrskns
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now
What bugs me the most is the hypocrisy.
OK, so God wants them to live well. That's great. But can't Lindsay get around town in something other than a red Mercedes Convertible and a white Lexus SUV? Wouldn't a Chrysler Town & Country minivan do the same? What the heck, she could order a power sunroof if she wants to feel the wind in her hair and sun on her face. (Actually, Lindsay, from the looks of your hair, you should probably keep the sunroof closed...)
Couldn't a 2,500 square foot home protect the Roberts family as well as the monstrosity they have now?
Wouldn't it do more good to cut the clothing budget and send the money saved somewhere where it could really do some good? What the heck, Dillard's has nice clothes, and you can get them on sale most of the time.
I'm pretty sure God didn't tell Lindsay she needed a red Mercedes. They are spending money on themselves that could/should be spent fixing that dilapidated campus, or feeding the poor, or giving scholarships to the needy.
That could apply to all of us. Who needs iPods, cell phones, vacations, designer handbags, etc.? Why don't we give that money to the poor? Why should the Robert's family be the only ones expected to do so? If people are sending money to them, that's not the Robert's problem... if anyone sent money to me, I'd take it, too!
That COULD apply to all of us, except most of us are not on TV asking people to send money on the pretense that God wants you to.
"If people are sending money to them, that's not the Robert's problem..." - Uhm, it is if they are on the air regularly asking for it!
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
Not only did Oral claim to see the 900 foot Jesus, but he also claimed that The 900 foot Jesus lifted up the unfinished "City of Filth" towers claiming "See how easy it is for me to lift them?" Oral did indeed claim that he would be "called home" if he didn't get a ton of money to finish the hospital. Well, he didn't get it, the hospital was never completely finished and what was in operation ceased in a few years. Oral spent a lot of money on the modern design with all of the gold mirrored glass. I guess he was trying to make it look like a Las Vegas hotel casino. Oral and his bunch have always been the biggest disgrace to the city of Tulsa and probably always will be. It is heartwarming to see that Richard is following so closely in Daddy's footsteps.
He was called home. . .to Beverly Hills. He has a 20 million dollar home in a gated street close to Eddy Murphy's. I used to have a good areial of it. I'll look for the file.
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
Not only did Oral claim to see the 900 foot Jesus, but he also claimed that The 900 foot Jesus lifted up the unfinished "City of Filth" towers claiming "See how easy it is for me to lift them?" Oral did indeed claim that he would be "called home" if he didn't get a ton of money to finish the hospital. Well, he didn't get it, the hospital was never completely finished and what was in operation ceased in a few years. Oral spent a lot of money on the modern design with all of the gold mirrored glass. I guess he was trying to make it look like a Las Vegas hotel casino. Oral and his bunch have always been the biggest disgrace to the city of Tulsa and probably always will be. It is heartwarming to see that Richard is following so closely in Daddy's footsteps.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong because I am relying strictly on my memory. But didn't he raise ALL the money? As I recall, a man came forward (a guy who owned some dog racing tracks in Florida) and gave Oral enough to put him over the top of his goal.
At least that what I seem to remember.
^^Yes he did.
quote:
Originally posted by spoonbill
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
Not only did Oral claim to see the 900 foot Jesus, but he also claimed that The 900 foot Jesus lifted up the unfinished "City of Filth" towers claiming "See how easy it is for me to lift them?" Oral did indeed claim that he would be "called home" if he didn't get a ton of money to finish the hospital. Well, he didn't get it, the hospital was never completely finished and what was in operation ceased in a few years. Oral spent a lot of money on the modern design with all of the gold mirrored glass. I guess he was trying to make it look like a Las Vegas hotel casino. Oral and his bunch have always been the biggest disgrace to the city of Tulsa and probably always will be. It is heartwarming to see that Richard is following so closely in Daddy's footsteps.
He was called home. . .to Beverly Hills. He has a 20 million dollar home in a gated street close to Eddy Murphy's. I used to have a good areial of it. I'll look for the file.
OK, being neighbors as you've pointed out,I'm trying to imagine Oral Roberts and Eddie Murphy hanging out, and it looks pretty bizarre.
Mr. Jaynes, too bad they busted Richard's chops. Maybe you could have been the full-time cosmetologist/stylist for the Roberts Wemmen.
Turns out Tim Brooker's no novice when it comes to lawsuits, sounds like he's had some questionable business dealings of his own:
Story (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071104_1_A1_pbpuU64288%22)
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
I believe that Oral was dedicated to providing an educational function that would have surpassed any in the local area. While we are stoning him lets not forget the he was told that through the City of Faith it would be given the solution to cancer.
Apparently he was told wrong.
I know a lady, seriously, that broke a hip nearly 30 years ago, and is waiting on a faith healing. For nearly 30 years she's hobbled around on crutches, and this whole time the damn thing can be medically repaired.
She's old now, and crazy beyond belief. If faith-healers had the same liability that companies and doctors do, there wouldn't be any faith-healers.
Worked for Oral's campus architect during the time of the City of Faith and the medical school additions to the campus. Talking about waste and expensive spending, Oral was the unquenchable king of waste.
I was flipping the channels to get to "six in the morning" this morning and who was on with Benny Hinn this morning on Ch. 7? Oral. That ought to lend some credibility to the ministry for sure!
Poor Oral's ear lobes are getting so long he's starting to look like Goofy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/06/cbsnews_investigates/main3456977.shtml
Senate Panel Probes 6 Top Televangelists
The six ministries identified as being under investigation by the committee are led by: Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. Three of the six - Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar - also sit on the Board of Regents for the Oral Roberts University.
Joyce Meyer actually has some credibilty in my books. Interesting to note her ministry doesn't seem to be cagey about responding to the inquiry. I'm surprised they aren't interested in looking into Tilton or ORM in the probe.
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/1107/470334.html
Senator Probing Three Oral Roberts Regents
"An Iowa senator is investigating possible financial wrongdoing by six televangelists, including three who sit on the board of regents for Oral Roberts University. Senator Charles Grassley is the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee.
He is requesting financial records from televangelists Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White and Eddie Long.
Hinn, Copeland and Dollar are members of the ORU board of regents.
That school is more than $50 million in debt and fighting claims that its president, Richard Roberts, misspent university funds to support a lavish lifestyle.
Roberts has denied the allegations. "
What goes around comes around.....
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I was flipping the channels to get to "six in the morning" this morning and who was on with Benny Hinn this morning on Ch. 7? Oral. That ought to lend some credibility to the ministry for sure!
Poor Oral's ear lobes are getting so long he's starting to look like Goofy.
"That be fawkin goofy...." Mickey Mouse
This article has a few more details.
http://www.cbs46.com/news/14525113/detail.html?rss=lnta&psp=news
Why would anyone need a $23,000 toilet? Talk about money down the crapper!
I have nothing against these people, I actually admire some of them, but with all that power and money - stuff can happen.
An independent group has pushed Joyce Meyer before and she has been apologetic and quickly resolved any issues in the past.
$23,000 toilet? I think someone was in a hurry to sit on a heavenly throne...
Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait ... are you telling me that some people are using their god to try and amass worldly wealth and power? The ancient shamans, priests of the America's, Pharisees, Pharaohs, Oracles, Popes Prophets, Imams, and Monarchs would surely be shocked. SHOCKED I tell you.
Using god to coax people towards achieving your means is only surpassed in age by the use of violence. It just took a while to figure out telling people an invisible big brother wants them to do it was easier.
I hope honest charities are exonerated and continue to do good tax free with the support of the government, I hope those using the tax benefits and generosity of others to sit their royal asses on $23,000 toilets go down in flames.
From Kenneth Copeland (One of Oral Roberts pilots at one time IIRC).
They actually "need" His and Hers Citation X's to do more good work.
http://www.elitecxteam.org/kenneth/index.php
Partners,
As you know, Gloria and I have been believing God for a Cessna Citation X so that we can better fulfill the calling of Kenneth Copeland Ministries—to take the Word of God to the world—from the top to the bottom and all the way around.
Not long ago, one of our longtime Partners, Mac Gober, shared with us that God had placed a vision in his heart to help us purchase this airplane. Mac is a family friend and a fellow minister of the gospel. And when God speaks something to Mac, look out! He will take hold of that thing and run with it.
That's what he is doing with this plan concerning our airplane. Gloria and I have prayed about it, and we are behind him 100 percent. We would never hinder a Partner from doing what God has called him to do, and we believe Mac has heard from the Lord. Please get behind Mac and prayerfully consider your part in his vision for this Elite CX Team.
This is a very crucial time in history, and we have got to make the most of these days. Every minute counts. Every prayer counts. Every seed counts. In fact, we believe they count double. Gloria and I are believing that your increase will be doubled. We rejoice with you, Partners. The double is here, and I can see that Citation X on the horizon.
I prayed and prayed for a Citation X, and all I was blessed with was a second-hand Cessna 152...
Conan. Obvious you dont have the caliber of "Portners" or "Pahdnahs". To get 2 20 million plus Citations, you have to partner up big.
"Senator Probing Three Oral Roberts Regents"
Something about that story title isn't right.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by citizen72
Now, Oral Roberts is living in Palm Springs. Is there something wrong with this picture? I always heard he was a poor man!
No, it is just the way of the leech.
Newport Beach. Prolly costs even more to live there.
I understand that Dennis Rodman lives in Newport Beach. I'm getting a visual of them as neighbors, and it is disturbing....
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
"Senator Probing Three Oral Roberts Regents"
Something about that story title isn't right.
I didn't know Larry Craig was involved in this...
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I prayed and prayed for a Citation X, and all I was blessed with was a second-hand Cessna 152...
You can't pray FOR things, you have to pray "on" things apparently. So try again and maybe Jesus will give you your airplane.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I prayed and prayed for a Citation X, and all I was blessed with was a second-hand Cessna 152...
You can't pray FOR things, you have to pray "on" things apparently. So try again and maybe Jesus will give you your airplane.
Actually, it's a matter of "believing God" for your airplane, and then you'll get it!
Funny thing happened on the way to the airport today. The website Flightaware.com allows one to track any flight on an IFR flightplan in the U.S. Until recently the Roberts jet N455BK was available for tracking. Seems they have requested to have it removed from being available to us.
You can ck out Joyce Meyer's Gulfstream 4 movements.... N7JM
www.flightaware.com
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I prayed and prayed for a Citation X, and all I was blessed with was a second-hand Cessna 152...
You can't pray FOR things, you have to pray "on" things apparently. So try again and maybe Jesus will give you your airplane.
No I prayed on it, and personally asked Jeebus. No go. Not getting the Citation, and I'm not getting that new 52 ft. Hylas cutter-rigged sailboat either. Actually, I had prayed on a custom-built 80' alloy-hulled ketch initially, but thought the 52' Hylas was a much more humble and a reasonible goal.
I think your problem is what you are asking for. Jesus don't do boats. Ask for a plane.
Jesus is a co-pilot, not a co-captain.
I have much compassion for any individual who can by his worldly leadership build the area up where it is know world wide. There is no doubt that the 380+ acres stand in the way of the river development where some developers cannot understand when the voters say NO.
These same people who want to compare corporate perks to what the taxpayer should furnish those employed to benefit the general welfare of widower and working poor make their voice known loud and clear.
The screaming that OR is bankrupt with 168M in assets an 52M in liabilities leads many to believe the TU should make it another southern campus like the native American artifacts who's collection is recognized by his mane.
If the returning of Jesus were to appear in the new glass cube city hall, showing the discuss he had for those in the temple, the persons today would throw him to the ground and yell for an policeman to put him in hand cuffs.
How much was the government paying for toilets here a few years back?
Preach it, shadows, preach it!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071117_1_A1_hTheb43533
They left out that it serves as a parking lot as well.....
Maybe one of our local billionaires can buy it, redo it's exteriors and start a really good school instead of one that breaks the tax code rules....
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I prayed and prayed for a Citation X, and all I was blessed with was a second-hand Cessna 152...
You can't pray FOR things, you have to pray "on" things apparently. So try again and maybe Jesus will give you your airplane.
Kirk: "Excuse me... Excuse me... I just wanted to ask a question. What does God need with a starship?"
(http://www.jammersreviews.com/images/misc/frontier/sybok.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by billintulsa
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
I believe that Oral was dedicated to providing an educational function that would have surpassed any in the local area. While we are stoning him lets not forget the he was told that through the City of Faith it would be given the solution to cancer.
Apparently he was told wrong.
The provisions were placed in his hands to find a cure for a fatal illness that is the most feared by mortal persons. Only those who watch a person die with cancer would understand.
The day hospital opened it was a thorn in the fingers of the other church that control the hospitals. The word was that we did not need any more beds in Tulsa. Since, we have added many more and are told there is still a shortage.
By his faith he fulfilled his promises to his creator and partners to build the city of faith. He set in motion the process to find a cure of cancer but the needs were rejected by the mortals..
The bottom line question would be who is the looser as we go on with the search to find a cure?.
I've always wondered why it is that a guy who believes in "faith healing" needed to build a hospital. That just doesn't jive.
Still more:
Weekly Emails Checked (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071121_1_A1_hThep42784%22)
Stephanie Cantees sounds like a bumbling idiot. I bet she's not the only un-qualified hire on ORU or ORM payroll.
And the teen speaks out:
Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071121_1_A1_spanc11346%22)
The 'kid' is a budding delinquent...errrr, crook.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/casesearch.asp?query=true&srch=0&web=true&db=all&icasetype=&iDATEL=&iDATEH=&iCLOSEDL=&iCLOSEDH=&number=&iLast=Schwoegler&iFirst=&iMiddle=&iID=&iDOBL=&iDOBH=&SearchType=0&iDCPT=&iDCType=0&iYear=&iNumber=&icitation=
The kid sure needs some counseling from somebody.
Possession of drug paraphernalia, possession of burglery tools, unauthorized use of credit card...these are serious charges.
Six different times before a judge on separate charges in 25 months...
That's a real shame. I used to know his dad through business, and he was/is someone I looked up to as having pretty high morals and integrity.
Sounds almost like this kid has the PK syndrome.
Matthew 5:40
quote:
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
Oral Roberts President Resigns
3 hours ago
TULSA, Okla. (AP) — The embattled president of Oral Roberts University resigned from his position Friday, officials said.
Richard Roberts' resignation is effective immediately, according to a statement e-mailed from George Pearsons, chairman of the school's Board of Regents.
Roberts and the university have come under fire since a lawsuit was filed by three former professors accusing him, among other things, of misusing school funds to support a lavish lifestyle.
The evangelical school's regents will meet Monday and Tuesday to determine action in the search process for a new president, Pearsons said in the statement.
"Executive Regent Billy Joe Daugherty will continue to assume administrative responsibilities of the Office of the President, working together with Chancellor Oral Roberts, until the Regents meeting," the statement read.
Richard Roberts also expressed his feelings for the school in the letter, according to the statement.
"`I love ORU with all my heart,'" he said in the statement."` I love the students, faculty, staff and administration and I want to see God's best for all of them.'"
Continue this discussion in a new topic with folks from the Tulsa World comments, see:
http://www.tulsanow.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8134
God should force a few more resignations....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-7112115,00.html
I bet "God" sounded a lot like his defense lawyer.
Nah, I think God has a drawl which sounds a lot like Gary Richardson.
I'll tell you this much, a lot of alumni I've talked to are happy to see Roberts leave and Green take control.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Nah, I think God has a drawl which sounds a lot like Gary Richardson.
Or perhaps with the voice of that guy who does those voiceovers in those movie trailers (I think Don LaFontaine is his name).
By the way, ever notice that whenever Jesus is portayed in most movies, he comes off as some Shakespearean type from London or somewhere like that?
quote:
Originally posted by mr.jaynes
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Nah, I think God has a drawl which sounds a lot like Gary Richardson.
Or perhaps with the voice of that guy who does those voiceovers in those movie trailers (I think Don LaFontaine is his name).
By the way, ever notice that whenever Jesus is portayed in most movies, he comes off as some Shakespearean type from London or somewhere like that?
Hmmm, I never really noticed that. I always thought Jesus looked a little Jewish to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by mr.jaynes
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Nah, I think God has a drawl which sounds a lot like Gary Richardson.
Or perhaps with the voice of that guy who does those voiceovers in those movie trailers (I think Don LaFontaine is his name).
By the way, ever notice that whenever Jesus is portayed in most movies, he comes off as some Shakespearean type from London or somewhere like that?
Hmmm, I never really noticed that. I always thought Jesus looked a little Jewish to me.
Well, it always seems that a either a British actor or a Broadway-trained actor plays Jesus, and he always has this formal theatrical bearing to him in every scene. Why not try to give Jesus a new spin (as a friend of mine has suggested), such as a more streetwise bearing to him (because nobody knew the mean streets of Nazareth and Bethlehem better than Jesus), and maybe even a Brooklyn accent. Or perhaps a blue-collar edge (he was a carpenter after all). Because the whole British/Broadway Jesus thing has just been overdone.
Same friend of mine does a routine about the New York Jesus. Hilarious regardless if one is religious or not.