Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: waterboy on September 18, 2007, 10:00:41 PM
Post by: waterboy on September 18, 2007, 10:00:41 PM
Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.
Perhaps he could pick up a copy of OklahomaGlory magazine. A glossy, professional centennial travel guide magazine available to prospective visitors to Oklahoma. Also can be viewed at TravelOK.com. Why? Well, it has all the great places to visit, stay and spend money on while here in Oklahoma, listed by region and by city.
OKC had a total of 17 pages of things to do, places to stay and dine. That included many full page full color ads for cities near OKC like Guthrie, Stillwater, Norman, El Reno, Shawnee and Chickasha. Very impressive the way surrounding communities "coat tail" onto the Bricktown/Downtown OKC development.
Tulsa? We had four pages which included a full page ad from Sand Springs. No other display ads. Some of our attractions? Bell's amusement-park, Redbud valley, Arkansas River Historical Museum. Been to those lately?
These questions come to mind.
1. Which city would you choose to visit while in Oklahoma?
2. How can surrounding cities in Tulsa County think there is nothing in this project for them?
3. How can anyone but a politician pandering to anti-tax regulars bellow out that a 4/10 cent sales tax increase will erode total sales tax dollars in the face of success merely 80 miles away??
NOTE: OKC did their improvements from a sales tax increase, which was considered too high at the time.
Perhaps he could pick up a copy of OklahomaGlory magazine. A glossy, professional centennial travel guide magazine available to prospective visitors to Oklahoma. Also can be viewed at TravelOK.com. Why? Well, it has all the great places to visit, stay and spend money on while here in Oklahoma, listed by region and by city.
OKC had a total of 17 pages of things to do, places to stay and dine. That included many full page full color ads for cities near OKC like Guthrie, Stillwater, Norman, El Reno, Shawnee and Chickasha. Very impressive the way surrounding communities "coat tail" onto the Bricktown/Downtown OKC development.
Tulsa? We had four pages which included a full page ad from Sand Springs. No other display ads. Some of our attractions? Bell's amusement-park, Redbud valley, Arkansas River Historical Museum. Been to those lately?
These questions come to mind.
1. Which city would you choose to visit while in Oklahoma?
2. How can surrounding cities in Tulsa County think there is nothing in this project for them?
3. How can anyone but a politician pandering to anti-tax regulars bellow out that a 4/10 cent sales tax increase will erode total sales tax dollars in the face of success merely 80 miles away??
NOTE: OKC did their improvements from a sales tax increase, which was considered too high at the time.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: MichaelBates on September 18, 2007, 10:37:03 PM
Post by: MichaelBates on September 18, 2007, 10:37:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.
Perhaps he could pick up a copy of OklahomaGlory magazine. A glossy, professional centennial travel guide magazine available to prospective visitors to Oklahoma. Also can be viewed at TravelOK.com. Why? Well, it has all the great places to visit, stay and spend money on while here in Oklahoma, listed by region and by city.
OKC had a total of 17 pages of things to do, places to stay and dine. That included many full page full color ads for cities near OKC like Guthrie, Stillwater, Norman, El Reno, Shawnee and Chickasha. Very impressive the way surrounding communities "coat tail" onto the Bricktown/Downtown OKC development.
Tulsa? We had four pages which included a full page ad from Sand Springs. No other display ads. Some of our attractions? Bell's amusement-park, Redbud valley, Arkansas River Historical Museum. Been to those lately?
I couldn't find the magazine online -- could you post a direct link?
I think what you have there is more proof, as if we needed any, of the shortcomings of Tulsa's convention and visitors bureau, a branch of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, funded by City of Tulsa hotel/motel tax dollars.
You and I both know there is far more worth seeing and doing in Tulsa and the surrounding area than what was contained in this magazine.
A few years ago when I was in Wichita on business, I found brochures for Tulsa and Oklahoma City in a rack at the hotel.
Oklahoma City's brochure had a big map on one side, and on the other side big words (with map coordinates) promoting their most family-friendly, cowboy-and-Indian attractions -- the zoo, the Cowboy Hall of Fame, the Omniplex, Frontier City. (None of which were funded by MAPS.)
Tulsa's brochure was targeted at a more upscale audience. It was a booklet, with tiny type, and it emphasized the opera, the ballet, fine art museums, and Utica Square.
If you're driving through Oklahoma with rowdy kids in the back of the minivan in need of a place to burn off some energy, which city would you aim for?
The job of marketing Tulsa to tourists needs to be put out for bids, with the CVB disqualified from bidding for poor past performance.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Rico on September 18, 2007, 10:39:22 PM
Post by: Rico on September 18, 2007, 10:39:22 PM
^
No that is not evidence that "sales taxes" do not work.........
However... Tulsa and Tulsa County define "sales tax" as the cure to all ills...
One day soon they are going to have to find a new way to get from point A to Z.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: sgrizzle on September 18, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
Post by: sgrizzle on September 18, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
http://oklahoma.dirxion.com/entrymap.asp?screen=1400&os=win
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Double A on September 18, 2007, 10:59:22 PM
Post by: Double A on September 18, 2007, 10:59:22 PM
It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: TheArtist on September 18, 2007, 11:12:13 PM
Post by: TheArtist on September 18, 2007, 11:12:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.
Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 12:17:01 AM
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 12:17:01 AM
quote:By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?
Originally posted by TheArtistquote:
Originally posted by Double A
It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.
Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: perspicuity85 on September 19, 2007, 02:11:49 AM
Post by: perspicuity85 on September 19, 2007, 02:11:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
I think what you have there is more proof, as if we needed any, of the shortcomings of Tulsa's convention and visitors bureau, a branch of the Tulsa Metro Chamber, funded by City of Tulsa hotel/motel tax dollars.
You and I both know there is far more worth seeing and doing in Tulsa and the surrounding area than what was contained in this magazine.
The job of marketing Tulsa to tourists needs to be put out for bids, with the CVB disqualified from bidding for poor past performance.
Mr. Bates, I couldn't agree with you more. Tulsa's biggest problem in terms of tourism is marketing. The CVB does an awful job of identifying which Tulsa attractions to promote and who the target market tourists are. Furthermore, there is a general lack of effort, in my opinion, to market the city's unique attractions and cultural infrastructure.
There is a technical term for this phenomenon: marketing myopia.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: waterboy on September 19, 2007, 07:17:09 AM
Post by: waterboy on September 19, 2007, 07:17:09 AM
The link is www.TravelOK.com but the web site doesn't have the same impact as the glossy magazine.
Look, maybe the COC is poor at promoting Tulsa but the list of places to go and things to do in Tulsa was not deficient. Its just a small list. Are they responsible for waking up the surrounding communities to understand that its a centennial year and they should capitalizze on the marketing being done nationwide? Only Sand Springs understood the value of that and they should be angry that the rest of the regions left them out to dry.
What major attraction should the COC have featured? Perhaps the Arena though it opens late in the year. Perhaps the casinos or Brookside/Cherry St/Blue Dome/Riverwalk. There simply is no large focus for the rest of the region to hang its hat on. Bricktown is that focus for OKC along with all the other attractions like the Cowboy Museum, Remington, Whitewater, Frontier City, OmniPlex etc. THEN the other cities did ads that showed their claim to fame mentioning their close proximity to OKC...
Shawnee-world class casino
Norman-world class museums
Stillwater-meeting & events facilities
El Reno-rail based trolley & festivals
Guthrie-first capital city, architecture, festivals, centennial events.
Chickasha-festival of light
That region works together to play off of the central focus that Bricktown serves. Meanwhile we're arguing about how the burbs have nothing to gain from us establishing the River Project as a focus for the region. The proof of how a small sales tax can leverage into large sales tax returns, not erosion of returns, is clear to see. Unless you just have a political reason for opposing any tax and don't mind waiting 20 more years for v2025 overages to kick in. Yeah, culturally we're superior I guess. Business wise we're dense.
Look, maybe the COC is poor at promoting Tulsa but the list of places to go and things to do in Tulsa was not deficient. Its just a small list. Are they responsible for waking up the surrounding communities to understand that its a centennial year and they should capitalizze on the marketing being done nationwide? Only Sand Springs understood the value of that and they should be angry that the rest of the regions left them out to dry.
What major attraction should the COC have featured? Perhaps the Arena though it opens late in the year. Perhaps the casinos or Brookside/Cherry St/Blue Dome/Riverwalk. There simply is no large focus for the rest of the region to hang its hat on. Bricktown is that focus for OKC along with all the other attractions like the Cowboy Museum, Remington, Whitewater, Frontier City, OmniPlex etc. THEN the other cities did ads that showed their claim to fame mentioning their close proximity to OKC...
Shawnee-world class casino
Norman-world class museums
Stillwater-meeting & events facilities
El Reno-rail based trolley & festivals
Guthrie-first capital city, architecture, festivals, centennial events.
Chickasha-festival of light
That region works together to play off of the central focus that Bricktown serves. Meanwhile we're arguing about how the burbs have nothing to gain from us establishing the River Project as a focus for the region. The proof of how a small sales tax can leverage into large sales tax returns, not erosion of returns, is clear to see. Unless you just have a political reason for opposing any tax and don't mind waiting 20 more years for v2025 overages to kick in. Yeah, culturally we're superior I guess. Business wise we're dense.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: waterboy on September 19, 2007, 07:22:24 AM
Post by: waterboy on September 19, 2007, 07:22:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Double Aquote:By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?
Originally posted by TheArtistquote:
Originally posted by Double A
It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.
Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?
My kids loved Frontier City when they we visited there in the 80's-90's. Put Bell's to shame.
No tears AA, but I wept inside for those who blurted out and applauded form over substance. Were you one of them? Nice pants btw.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: TheArtist on September 19, 2007, 08:21:32 AM
Post by: TheArtist on September 19, 2007, 08:21:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Double Aquote:By chance, have you ever been to Frontier Sh*#ty? The last time I was there(granted it's been many years), it made Bells(at it's worst) look like Disney World. Did you and waterbuoy weep to yourselves all the way home after the disapproving reception that the crowd gave to the pro tax side at the forum tonight? How's that TN poll going, BTW?
Originally posted by TheArtistquote:
Originally posted by Double A
It is evidence the Metro Chamber should no longer receive sales tax dollars to promote Tulsa. I bet Bell's wasn't even included as a Tulsa attraction, yet OKC had Frontier Sh*#ty prominently promoted on their brochures. Interesting.
Well thank god for that. Can you imagine the impression someone would get going to Bells and thinking it was what we considered an attraction?
Didnt do any weeping. Though I wish the personalities had been a bit more balanced between the yes and no sides. The yes side had some facts but no balls. They were so woosy in their responses they couldnt debate their way out of a paper bag. It was like watching Mr Rogers debate Rush Limbaugh.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Townsend on September 19, 2007, 09:20:32 AM
Post by: Townsend on September 19, 2007, 09:20:32 AM
It's a shame.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 09:26:54 AM
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 09:26:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Councilor Eagleton insists that an additional 4/10 of a cent sales tax will erode sales tax collections in the city of Tulsa.
Eagleton did lose me on that point. I guess I'm not enough of an economist for that to make sense.
Honestly, I don't think there was a problem with who they picked for the pro side. I just don't think they have the full message to present yet. It's hard to answer pointed questions when you don't know all the details or can't release them yet.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 09:29:47 AM
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 09:29:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
It's a shame.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away. They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it. This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.
I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen. That's pure B.S.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 19, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 19, 2007, 01:46:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
It's a shame.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away. They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it. This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.
I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen. That's pure B.S.
It took THREE votes (1997, 2000 and finally passed in 2003) before the local citizenry were softened up enough and the economy was bad enough that the voters succumbed to the JUST DO SOMETHING ploy.
If the Kaiser-River-Tax fails, the coldly, calculating local ruling Power Oligarchy and their clique of connected construction company cronies will regroup, re-shape the message and RAISE THE PRICE, and try again, and again, and again.
If they ultimately end of spending $5 million over the next 5 years to get the Kaiser River Tax passed, it will be well worth it to them, if they in turn gain control over 1/2 Billion dollars in future tax revenues.
Let's just do their arithmetric, shall we:
Cost: $5,000,000 to promote
Gross Receipts: $500,000,000.
Return: My business calculator doesn't compute that high of percentage return. Must find a Tulsa Ruling Oligarchy calculator that goes that high to compute such an ASTRONOMICAL return on investment.
Okay, borrowed a calculator from a major Crack Wholesaler, and I've got it figured now:
A whopping 10,000% return on their sales tax promotion "investment".
They'll then continue to build on their Third Fortunes, whistling all the while, while we are hosed in every purchase we make.
[:O]
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: TheArtist on September 19, 2007, 01:52:02 PM
Post by: TheArtist on September 19, 2007, 01:52:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
It's a shame.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away. They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it. This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.
I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen. That's pure B.S.
I think the big money donors in this are the ones that pushed it to such an early vote. Next spring would have been a better time. More could have been done plan wise etc. It seems that Mr Kaiser needs to get this sum of money dedicated to something this year or it will have to go to some other cause. But I am sure something could have been worked out. I would hope that if this tax doesnt pass that the donors go ahead and do their part.
If they dont the most honorable, and publicity wise, "wise" thing to do would be to pay the citizens back the cost of doing the vote. That would make it much easier to do another vote next year and soften a lot of rancor.
As for the topic at hand. I have always felt Tulsa never sold itself like it should. What I have seen has just never worked. Its like they just dont get it. They dont know how to sell what we have. This also leads to us not valuing, growing, and improving our assets. Things like our art-deco are half heartedly mentioned while we continue to lose many of them to decay and tear downs. Rarely are obvious opportunities availed to enhance and grow the deco heritage. Doesnt have to be true art-deco can definitley be a modern version of it to be fresh, contemporary, and a sign of our times yet build on and grow an asset. Enhance and further create a unique identity. New city construction, parking garages, street lights, stop lights, city signage, rest stops, etc. New pedestrian bridge, a flashy, sleek, contemmporary rendition of art-deco? Tulsa welcome signs at the major entrances to the city. New overpasses on the highways have a hint of it, black deco trolleys and buses, the city logo, website, advertising and paperwork all have a contemporary or "retro deco" look, etc, etc. Other cities and areas "theme" the dickens out of themselves lol. You could play the deco theme in many directions. It can project an image that is classic and contemporary, sleek, sophisticated, strong, create a "METROPOLIS" feel, hearken back to an old fashioned romantic era yet be fun and trendy... all kinds of things.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 02:09:55 PM
Post by: Conan71 on September 19, 2007, 02:09:55 PM
Even if this block of Kaiser's money needs to be allocated this year, I think he knows where to find more. [;)]
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 05:21:06 PM
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 05:21:06 PM
quote:True dat. Don't believe the hype.
Originally posted by Conan71quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
It's a shame.
At least we're still "comfortably cosmopolitan".
or are we "I am something or other".
If the river vote fails, Tulsa is stuck in glue for another 10 years.
If the Oct. 9 river vote fails, this will not go away. They will learn something from it, seek more input, provide more details and we will get it. This was a suicide mission at best by calling for a vote in a 60 to 90 day time frame.
I'm sick and tired of the loose implication from the "yes" campaign that if we don't act now it will never happen. That's pure B.S.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM
Post by: Double A on September 19, 2007, 05:27:06 PM
quote:Yeah, wassup with that? Kinda reminds me of that Richard Pryor flick Brewster's millions. Don't count on the five million pledged by the Creeks to ever materialize, BTW.
Originally posted by Conan71
Even if this block of Kaiser's money needs to be allocated this year, I think he knows where to find more. [;)]
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 07:43:29 AM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 07:43:29 AM
Off-topic
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 10:43:40 AM
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 10:43:40 AM
Off-topic
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 11:36:22 AM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 11:36:22 AM
Off-topic
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 12:13:06 PM
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 12:13:06 PM
Off-topic
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 02:18:44 PM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 02:18:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Double Aquote:Yeah, wassup with that? Kinda reminds me of that Richard Pryor flick Brewster's millions. Don't count on the five million pledged by the Creeks to ever materialize, BTW.
Originally posted by Conan71
Even if this block of Kaiser's money needs to be allocated this year, I think he knows where to find more. [;)]
Hmmmmmh, the Creek Nation possibly reneging on their $5M pledge brings to mind that 1960's Favorite by the rock group, 1910 Fruitgum Company:
INDIAN GIVER.
Indian giver, Indian giver, you took back the love you gave to me.
Indian giver, Indian giver, you took back the love you gave to me.
A Bubble-Gum Rock favorite.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Rico on September 20, 2007, 02:30:50 PM
Post by: Rico on September 20, 2007, 02:30:50 PM
Hey Bear they must have been listening to you regarding the "Tax" money.......
They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...
Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 02:49:00 PM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 02:49:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Hey Bear they must have been listening to you regarding the "Tax" money.......
(//images/speech/icon_speech_duh.gif) They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...
Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
Uh, wasn't the new Vision 2025 Tax reported by the Tulsa Co. Election Board in Sept. 2003 as Approved?
Uh, wasn't Hurricane Katrina in August 2005, TWO years later?
Oh, you say the Channels intervened in 2006, when someone greedy Someones got tired of waiting for their Trust Fund payment, and decided to grab $660 million in new taxes?
In 2007, we now have the Kaiser River Tax proposal, for Voila, TWO NEW LOW WATER DAMS?
But, where are the Low Water Dams promised in 2003???
Waiting........
Waiting........
Waiting........
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 04:55:39 PM
Post by: swake on September 20, 2007, 04:55:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bearquote:
Originally posted by Double Aquote:Yeah, wassup with that? Kinda reminds me of that Richard Pryor flick Brewster's millions. Don't count on the five million pledged by the Creeks to ever materialize, BTW.
Originally posted by Conan71
Even if this block of Kaiser's money needs to be allocated this year, I think he knows where to find more. [;)]
Hmmmmmh, the Creek Nation possibly reneging on their $5M pledge brings to mind that 1960's Favorite by the rock group, 1910 Fruitgum Company:
INDIAN GIVER.
Indian giver, Indian giver, you took back the love you gave to me.
Indian giver, Indian giver, you took back the love you gave to me.
A Bubble-Gum Rock favorite.
Still racist.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2007, 06:14:50 PM
Post by: Conan71 on September 20, 2007, 06:14:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Hey Bear they must have been listening to you regarding the "Tax" money.......
(//images/speech/icon_speech_duh.gif) They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...
Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
I think between Eagleton & Bates being on the offensive lately on this, it's pretty timely for them to make a formal "rebuttal".
V-2025 keeps hiding behind "press releases" from the time not the official proposition nor the official ballot to explain that we all knew this.
Somehow the fact that dams weren't included without matching funds has escaped a lot of people. Citing newspaper articles from the time which explain this is shoddy work. This should have been clearly spelled out in the contract between the voter and the taxing authority- the ballot. Period.
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Rico on September 20, 2007, 08:40:34 PM
Post by: Rico on September 20, 2007, 08:40:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Hey Bear they must have been listening to you regarding the "Tax" money.......
(//images/speech/icon_speech_duh.gif) They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...
Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
I think between Eagleton & Bates being on the offensive lately on this, it's pretty timely for them to make a formal "rebuttal".
V-2025 keeps hiding behind "press releases" from the time not the official proposition nor the official ballot to explain that we all knew this.
Somehow the fact that dams weren't included without matching funds has escaped a lot of people. Citing newspaper articles from the time which explain this is shoddy work. This should have been clearly spelled out in the contract between the voter and the taxing authority- the ballot. Period.
You just hit the nail on the head.....
My opposition to the "River Tax" is that there is too much "it is in the plan..." and not enough spelling it out.. From what I gather they didn't even do this at the presentation last night...
Just the same old "Kaiser is going to give us this much money if we pass this bill for this much money... we can't pass this opportunity by.
phoooey
[}:)]
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 09:14:17 PM
Post by: Friendly Bear on September 20, 2007, 09:14:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ricoquote:
Originally posted by Conan71quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Hey Bear they must have been listening to you regarding the "Tax" money.......
(//images/speech/icon_speech_duh.gif) They say evrything is OK.... The money for the "Low Water Damns" is safely in a "lock box" and will only be spent if we approve 1."The River Tax", 2.Matching Funds show up... 3.Neither happens...
Vision 2025 money being spent as intended, committee chairman says
By World Staff
9/20/2007 12:46 PM
The chairman of the Vision 2025 Sales Tax Overview Committee on Thursday held a press conference to clear up what he called misconceptions about how the sales tax revenues have been spent.
"I think that the taxpayers can be assured that their money is being used properly and for the purposes it was intended," said Doug Collins.
Collins said the $5.6 million in Vision 2025 allocated for construction of low-water dams along the Arkansas River was always intended as seed money that would be matched by federal funds.
The federal funds never reached Tulsa because of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina, Collins said.
"Therefore, we have not done much in the way of spending any of the Vision 2025 dollars for river projects," he said.
Collins added that about $5.3 million of the funds allocated for the dams remains.
He said the funds will not be spent on dam construction unless federal matching funds become available or voters approve the the proposed $282 million Arkansas River development proposal.
That vote is Oct. 9.
If neither happens, Collins said, the Vision 2025 funds will be used for other projects.
I think between Eagleton & Bates being on the offensive lately on this, it's pretty timely for them to make a formal "rebuttal".
V-2025 keeps hiding behind "press releases" from the time not the official proposition nor the official ballot to explain that we all knew this.
Somehow the fact that dams weren't included without matching funds has escaped a lot of people. Citing newspaper articles from the time which explain this is shoddy work. This should have been clearly spelled out in the contract between the voter and the taxing authority- the ballot. Period.
You just hit the nail on the head.....
My opposition to the "River Tax" is that there is too much "it is in the plan..." and not enough spelling it out.. From what I gather they didn't even do this at the presentation last night...
Just the same old "Kaiser is going to give us this much money if we pass this bill for this much money... we can't pass this opportunity by.
phoooey
[}:)]
The stewardship of our $100,000,000's of hard-earned tax money in the hands of Doug Collins is now I would think, suspect.
He's shilling for the local power establishment, who obviously picked him because he was their lackey. Yassuh, Boss.
Is Collins any relation to the thuggish former Tulsa County Commissioner, Dilbert Collins?
Title: Is this the evidence that sales taxes don't work?
Post by: Conan71 on September 21, 2007, 10:36:11 AM
Post by: Conan71 on September 21, 2007, 10:36:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
You just hit the nail on the head.....
My opposition to the "River Tax" is that there is too much "it is in the plan..." and not enough spelling it out.. From what I gather they didn't even do this at the presentation last night...
Just the same old "Kaiser is going to give us this much money if we pass this bill for this much money... we can't pass this opportunity by.
phoooey
[}:)]
Rico, I've been hammering on that same nail for a few months now. I haven't hit my thumb yet. [;)]