Well George was just saying how many "positive developments" there have been in Iraq that show the "War on Terror-Against Weapons of Mass Destruction-Possible Iranian Mushroom Clouds" is on track. The "key" to this being, of course, the Iraqi people and Government taking the initiative and "taking the lead"....
Well, there is a sign, there may be an inkling of "Truth" to all of this...
8/30/2007 5:31 PM
Last Modified: 8/30/2007 6:06 PM
WASHINGTON -- A plane carrying U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe was fired upon Thursday as it left Bahgdad airport, according to an aide to the Oklahoma Republican.
Elizabeth French said several shots, including rocket-propelled grenade rounds, were fired at the plane, which also had U.S. Sens. Mel Martinez and Richard Shelby of Ala. and U.S. Rep. Bud Cramer of Alabama on board.
French said the plane was not hit.
She said the plane's crew has been credited for taking a number of measures to avoid being hit, including discharging protective flares.
A veteran member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Inhofe is visiting the war zone as part of a congressional delegation.
Hey, those guys shot at us. We better pack up and leave!
Geez. Flying with Inhofe is just not a good idea- even when he's not the pilot. You'd think he'd get the hint by now and buy a Prevost.
I got an alibi. I was nowhere near Bahgdad that day.
I was...uh...at the movies. Yeah, I remember now.
I thought this was going to be the recent news that Petreaus recently told the Austrlian that the surge was wroking...
quote:
General Petraeus told The Australian during a face-to-face interview at his Baghdad headquarters there had been a 75 per cent reduction in religious and ethnic killings since last year, a doubling in the seizure of insurgents' weapons caches between January and August, a rise in the number of al-Qa'ida "kills and captures" and a fall in the number of coalition deaths from roadside bombings.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22337285-31477,00.html
Clearly its not a bed of roses. But the complete lack of good news seems to be unfounded, at least I hope so.
Don't worry CF. Rico doesn't care if the surge ever works. In fact, from what I gather from his posts, he's praying it won't. As for this story, it's just a wet dream of Rico's to see Inhoffe die.
I think we should try and negotitate with them.....
Why would anybody be surprised to hear the surge is yielding results? It's simple math, more troops, more results. But, is it enough? They may be disrupting some things, but the country is still in chaos. To get it under control would require even more time and more troops.
Whatever time they did buy for the Iraqi government has been wasted (month long vacation, only 3 of 18 benchmarks met). How can anyone claim they are "stepping up"?
The Iraqis are in a civil war that is closer to the beginning than the end. We can't increase our troop levels to stop it...we can't even sustain the numbers we have there now for much longer. To say that the surge is "working", or that there is enough "good news" to keep it up, is really, really, stretching the bounds of reason.
As for Inhofe, I'm glad he and the rest of the crew are okay. But I wonder how he's so sure that it was Al Qaeda that fired on him?
I'd like to know where Petraeus got his numbers on the sectarian killings after the surge. A 75 percent drop doesn't match *any* data I've seen anywhere.
And wasn't the whole purpose of the surge was to prop up the Iraq government so it could stand on its feet? The Iraqi government hasn't done squat.
So we're wasting money and lives, yet again.
You probably have better sources of information than the man who lives and works in Iraq, has daily contact with the government of Iraq, free access to all of Iraq, and commands the armies in Iraq. Or maybe not.
And yes, the surge is meant to buy time and quell threats to the government. And no, they have not done a good job. And yes, we are wasting money and men...
but your first statement pretty well sucked all your credibility out of your post. Why lead in with hyperbole then try to make a point?
To all who say this is "hopeless" or things aren't improving, how do you explain this?
Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, also a Shi'ite, traveled to Karbala and vowed to restore order. And, Moqtada al Sadr later announced his militia would halt its activities for up to six months.
Al-Sadr call for cease-fire (//%22http://voanews.com/english/2007-08-31-voa14.cfm%22)
Al-Sadr isn't doing this because he cares for the US, in fact we have squads patroling city streets looking to kill the guy as we speak. Pressure is being exerted on him somehow and it's making a difference. Personally I don't care who is making things better, but this is a great sign.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
She said the plane's crew has been credited for taking a number of measures to avoid being hit, including discharging protective flares.
Yeah, I'm sure the unguided ordinance would've killed them if not for the flares...
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
She said the plane's crew has been credited for taking a number of measures to avoid being hit, including discharging protective flares.
Yeah, I'm sure the unguided ordinance would've killed them if not for the flares...
I think by "flares" they meant to say precision guided, arab seeking missiles...
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
I think by "flares" they meant to say precision guided, arab seeking missiles...
But how many pieces of flare did they use?
(http://www.kinoweb.de/film99/OfficeSpace/pix/off7.jpg)
I can guaran-damn-tee ya it wasn't the "minimum."
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
To all who say this is "hopeless" or things aren't improving...
That group does not include me. Things are improving somewhat, and there's always hope. But, hope is not a strategy. There are things that we know: 1) We cannot sustain the surge indefinitely, in fact, we'll need to begin to draw down to previous levels within a few months...that jerk Al-Sadr knows this, too; and 2) The Iraqi Government is not using this precious time improve their own lot. The "surge" is simply that, a temporary increase in troop levels. Everybody knows this. The fact that Al-Sadr and the radical Shiites may take a few months off may simply indicate that time is on their side.
I hope for the best, of course I do. I hope that religious extremism goes out of style at exactly 4 'o clock this afternoon and never comes back. I hope that every AK-47 owner on the planet trades his weapon for an Xbox and get's hooked on Madden. And I hope that the surge works.
But, at the same time, it seems clear that the surge is not going to
be enough for
long enough. I don't think we need to spill American blood to forestall an inevitable conflagration.
quote:
The Iraqi Government is not using this precious time improve their own lot.
I think that VOA article I linked to is in disagreement with your position. They have somehow managed talk Al-Sadr into a cease-fire for at least 6 months and they are working on getting other factions to come to the table as well. Certainly not an insignificant turn of events.
We may need to draw down due to limits on deployment, but leaving doesn't seem to be a very palatable idea either, at least from a humanitarian POV, especially since Iran has now stated that they are "willing and ready to step into the power vacuum (//%22http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2007/08/28/afx4061368.html%22)" when and if we leave.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I hope for the best, of course I do. I hope that religious extremism goes out of style at exactly 4 'o clock this afternoon and never comes back. I hope that every AK-47 owner on the planet trades his weapon for an Xbox and get's hooked on Madden. And I hope that the surge works.
As they say: "Hope in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first."
I can't stand Madden or X-box. I like my small armory. [:P]
<--- AK-47 owner. Not trading. An X-Box will not help me when I have to overthrow Hillary. [;)]
But no, in all honesty... I've owned significant firearms (8mm Mausers, AK-47, .223 Remington, 12 Gauge, and on...) and have never even shot AT anyone. Held a car thief at gunpoint until the cops came one time, but never got a chance to shoot him.
Iraqi's just got the right to bear arms in their own homes. If I lived in Iraq, I would damn sure be armed within the law (outside the law is a good way to get killed by US forces). The demand for security is such that a single round for an AK is 90 cents.... 9 times the going rate. Hopefully that will not be needed in the near future, just like my firearms are not a mandatory security measure here.
The reports I've heard seem to indicate that Al-Sadr's decision was independent, that he may be reacting to the results of a recent gunbattle where 50 were killed. He's pulled back before...it could be a tactical or strategic move on his part. Who knows, the guy is as crazy as a pet squirrel.
Nevertheless, he has called on all others to cease fire, too. I'm still not sure that Al-Sadr's move was prompted by the Iraqi gov't or the surge, but yes, if others take a few months off, that is most definitely a hopeful sign.
As for the humanitarian fallout and the future of Iran in that country, Al-Sadr proved today that those are Iraqi choices.
I have been shot at once... I have Taken a pistol away from a guy that was going to shoot someone...And been peppered in the field while hunting, none of it was fun....But If I could have shot back it would have made me feel better......[}:)]
P.S. Sgrizz thanks for the laugh...heh...
“tell me that if the kind of success we are now seeing here continues, it will be possible to maintain the same level of security with fewer American forces.�
“I urge members of both parties in Congress to listen to what they have to say,� the president said. “Congress shouldn’t jump to conclusions until the general and the ambassador report.�
^
It is now going to be his decision....
Does he flip a coin at times like this or get out the Ouija Board....?
Decisions decisions.... Best left to the "deciderer"....
[}:)]
quote:
It is now going to be his decision....
M'kay...
Nearest I can tell from my public school ejumication in civics...he IS the one that makes that decision. Who else is supposed to...YOU? [}:)]
From LA Times (//%22http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-surge4sep04,0,3817546.story?coll=la-home-center%22)
quote:
Troop buildup fails to reconcile Iraq
BAGHDAD -- The U.S. military buildup that was supposed to calm Baghdad and other trouble spots has failed to usher in national reconciliation, as the capital's neighborhoods rupture even further along sectarian lines, violence shifts elsewhere and Iraq's government remains mired in political infighting.
In the coming days, U.S. military and government leaders will offer Congress their assessment of the 6-month-old plan's results. But a review of statistics on death and displacement, political developments and the impressions of Iraqis who are living under the heightened military presence reaches a dispiriting conclusion.
Despite the plan, which has brought an additional 28,500 U.S. troops to Iraq since February, none of the major legislation that Washington had expected the Iraqi parliament to pass into law has been approved.
The number of Iraqis fleeing their homes has increased, not decreased, according to the United Nations' International Organization for Migration and Iraq's Ministry for Displacement and Migration...
[more] (//%22http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-surge4sep04,0,3817546.story?coll=la-home-center%22)
quote:
...Pouring troops into the capital is no doubt going to make some areas safer, said one Marine officer, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the upcoming assessment.
"I don't know anyone who said, 'Let's have an argument on whether 20,000 troops can have an impact on some neighborhoods,' " the officer said. "I heard a debate about whether a 20,000-man surge would appreciably enhance the security of the Iraqi people and end the sectarian violence so political reconciliation could occur across the country, not just in Baghdad neighborhoods...
Exactly!
Oh boy! an LA Times article...Al-Jazeera website down today?
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Oh boy! an LA Times article...Al-Jazeera website down today?
Very funny. The LA Times is one of only a handful of news agencies that maintains a Baghdad bureau. Where would you
prefer to get your news IP?
I like the Chicago Sun-Times...but they're all equally poor for reporting nowadays. I think the days of honest and unbiased news reporting are long gone. It's hard to find good reliable news anywhere.
I like to read news from multiple sources in an effort to get all sides of the issue.
LA Times is one of the most dishonest papers in the US, IMO. For every story that makes one point, I can find three others that come to the opposite conclusion.
In other words, I tend to take all newspapers with a grain of salt.
From Chicago Sun-Times (//%22http://www.suntimes.com/news/jackson/540775,CST-EDT-jesse04.article%22)
quote:
Invest in U.S. instead of sacrificing in Iraq
September 4, 2007
JESSE JACKSON jjackson@rainbowpush.org
Heh. [;)]
Other than that, on Iraq, it's a bunch of AP reprints for the last week. I like the Chicago Sun-Times, too. But if they don't have the story, then they don't have it.
And we know how reliable the AP is...maybe they just doctor their photos...or was that Reuters? Either way, I've given up on newspapers to get anything right anymore.
I'd get my news from McClatchy News Bureau. They have reporters in Iraq, and it was the only bureau that got it right in the run-up to the Iraq war. Namely, they figured out there were very likely no WMDs in Iraq.
http://www.ajr.org/article_printable.asp?id=3725
Oh boy... I remember this one. Yeah, they knew MORE than the top 10 intelligence agencies on earth...
Dead CertainThe Presidency of George W Bush
The truth and nothing but the truth...
Why read any other News source...?
What the hell are you talking about? You're getting as bad as Shadows.
The surge is in no way working....and Bush is using the surge, killing and damaging more soldiers, just to make it the next presidents problem....it is a way to revise history. But he will not succeed. Don't believe the hype.
REMOVED
REMOVED
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
sniff...sniff...
Don't your co workers get annoyed with that odor in your office? If you are pointing at me Ipsqueky, put me on ignore. Otherwise, ****.
War is over. Have you heard?
sniff...sniff...sniff...that smell is getting stronger...
REMOVED
I seem to be smelling some serious surge........***snif...Sniff***
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
I seem to be smelling some serious surge........***snif...Sniff***
The surge is a joke on thousands of the finest men and women this country has ever known. The destruction to our countries greatest families is unconscionable.
The damage wrought by George Bush and company will hinder our progress for years.
Burner, your attack on me with the petty sniff sniff bs is indicative how lightly you and other's here at this leaky forum take the seriousness of this debacle.
War is over.
WARNING!!!
No one light a match...this room may assplode.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
WARNING!!!
No one light a match...this room may assplode.
You just want the surge to work for personal political reasons. You could obviously care less about righting this wrong.
Are you more interested in the next president having to deal with this issue? Are you not the least bit concerned about the future stability of America. Your attitude shows me you think this is a laughing matter....
Pot, Kettle. Kettle, pot.
AOX, why do you want the surge to fail so bad? It couldnt be for your political purposes could it?
And maybe, just maybe, IP (and others) want the surge to succeed because they are tired of spending money in Iraq, tired of seeing Americans killed, and just want things to be a little bit better around the world.
Not everyone is against you, nor is everything a conspiracy. The only thing around here that is a laughing matter is your attempt to justify yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Pot, Kettle. Kettle, pot.
AOX, why do you want the surge to fail so bad? It couldnt be for your political purposes could it?
And maybe, just maybe, IP (and others) want the surge to succeed because they are tired of spending money in Iraq, tired of seeing Americans killed, and just want things to be a little bit better around the world.
Not everyone is against you, nor is everything a conspiracy. The only thing around here that is a laughing matter is your attempt to justify yourself.
I do not think for a moment everyone on this forum is against me. Just you insiders who have a little click of gossip going on....
The one's who want the surge to succeed are wishful thinkers but in reality there is no way for it to succeed.
To turn this discussion around and say I must not want the surge to succeed is plain wrong. I never supported your thinking in the first place. I do not need to defend a stupid historic turning point for this country that I opposed from day one.
To find out it all started with a lie was enough for me to say I will have no part in it's support and instead run to the defense of the victims without any regard to the politics and politicians who started this mess.
REMOVED
Whenever I get discouraged about the war, I watch this (//%22http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d4_1187507591%22).
While it is sometimes difficult to take the same side as AOX, I will on this.
Views on the war and when it should end are all just opinion. I don't believe any of the propaganda coming out of Iraq from either side. They are both right and wrong. Things are going well or poorly, based on which side of the civil war that you talk to.
We need to find a way to get our troops home as soon as possible and this president thinks sending more over is the right answer.
No true American wants to lose this war. When you republican idealogues try to defend what is happening by claiming "the surge is working", you ignore the facts that American troops are still dying every day fighting a war that most Americans don't want them to be in.
And a message to you two...when you two just make fun of him and write "sniff", you lower the level of discourse.
REMOVED
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Whenever I get discouraged about the war, I watch this (//%22http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d4_1187507591%22).
Pretty macho....real sick....wrong way thinking.
quote:
When you republican idealogues try to defend what is happening by claiming "the surge is working", you ignore the facts that American troops are still dying every day fighting a war that most Americans don't want them to be in.
And when you naysayer liberal idealogues refuse to see positive results that even make a left winger like Katie Couric sit up and take notice of how the country is changing for the better I wonder why you ignore the "facts?"
quote:
And a message to you two...when you two just make fun of him and write "sniff", you lower the level of discourse.
Gee thanks for the self righteous admonishment... You're no prize poster yourself sometimes. It's amazing that out of all the hateful and personally directed comments AOX has made over the last two weeks you choose to harangue me and others...
AOX is an embarassment to himself and every other poster on this forum for the way he's acted over the last two weeks. Personally attacking individuals who both facilitate this forum and participate on it.
He deserves to be canned just for the half dozen times he's told various people to "****" in the last two days (at least once in this thread alone). As snarky as both you and I get, neither of us have stooped to that level.
That video is not sick. Talking about Karl Rove's mama's suicide is sick. Seeing some of your freedom fighters getting whacked is a GREAT thing. By golly, I am gonna watch it again and turn up that sound real loud.
RM:
First, I am not ridiculing AOX because of his anti war view. That view is a popular opinion and easily defensible. It is his antics and accusations that are annoying.
Anyway, I think the war has gone very poorly also and am not convinced more troops is the correct response. Of course, I am not a military strategist. In hind site, its so easy to say the course at the begging was horribly wrong. If our objective is a free and stable Iraq, and our military leaders say more troops are needed to accomplish that goal, then I am willing to accept that as the best course of action.
Setting the goal and determining what is an acceptable cost is a job for the politicians. Strategy should be left to the general (cost will obviously effect their available strategies). I'm just hoping the political side is not wagging the dog in this war as it did in Vietnam.
and as a side note, WWII was an unpopular war after a couple years too. Thanks to the outcome of the conflict history chooses to remember everyone donating pots and pans with a bright smile on their face, such was not always the case. Unpopularity is not necessarily indicative of a poor or failed cause. Especially since the American people would invade/pull out of wars every other week if given to their whims (North Korea said what? Invade them! A chopper crashed... crap pull out.).
Anyway, point taken.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Gee thanks for the self righteous admonishment... You're no prize poster yourself sometimes. It's amazing that out of all the hateful and personally directed comments AOX has made over the last two weeks you choose to harangue me and others...
AOX is an embarassment to himself and every other poster on this forum for the way he's acted over the last two weeks. Personally attacking individuals who both facilitate this forum and participate on it.
He deserves to be canned just for the half dozen times he's told various people to "****" in the last two days (at least once in this thread alone). As snarky as both you and I get, neither of us have stooped to that level.
I don't disagree. I thought you two had redeeming qualities and would take the friendly criticism as offered.
I sent a private message to the moderators agreeing that AOX be banned. He no longer had anything positive to add to the forum, in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Whenever I get discouraged about the war, I watch this (//%22http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d4_1187507591%22).
. . . then I feel bad about it all when I listen to MLK address the Vietnam War here (//%22http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1772990834810290128&hl=en%22).
quote:
I thought you two had redeeming qualities and would take the friendly criticism as offered.
Come on RM...you give me WAAAAY too much credit...[:P]