I just finished a trip thru Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and parts of Wisconsin and I can say that without a doubt they all have better roads and bridges than we do.
It isn't even close.
Take Michigan and Wisconsin for example. I was in the far Northern parts of those states. Drove the entire state of Michigan, crossed the Mackinac Bridge, crossed the Michigan U.P. and then into Wisconsin. Anway...those roads are smooth as silk. I'm not just talking the major interstates either. It makes me sick that they have such nice roadways and bridges and we have such total crap. Hell their roads are built in a far worse environment, hello 260 inches of snow in an average year, than ours are and they look flawless.
I'm so mad right now I'm ready to march on OKC and ask them just what the F*** they have been doing with our money for so many years.
Building stuff in OKC and BFE.
While I'm no roadway engineer, the reason why our roads are crap is because of the cycles they go thru each year. Up north, they get cold and stay cold until spring. Here, they get cold, warm up, get cold again, ad nauseum. Water enters the road surface, freezes and cracks it up. The summer is also a lot hotter here than up there, which tends to melt the asphalt. In the north, their roads may cycle 3 or 4 times, while down here, it may be 15-20.
It seems that we need an entirely different road material technology for this area of the country. At the least, we should look a Kansas and such to see how they do it, since they have similar climate swings as we do.
And, yes, where has our roadway money gone!?!
Oklahoma is a poor state - that is all that need be said.
quote:
Originally posted by claygate39
Oklahoma is a poor state - that is all that need be said.
Thanks troll.
We have the lowest fuel taxes in the entire nation.
It's really that simple, we have gotten what we have paid for, which is cheap gas and crappy roads, outside of metro Oklahoma City.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
We have the lowest fuel taxes in the entire nation.
It's really that simple, we have gotten what we have paid for, which is cheap gas and crappy roads, outside of metro Oklahoma City.
Thought I was reading a
Lorton's World article, authored by the Swake, there for just a moment.
It is a patented
Lorton's World Half-Truth to say our roads are bad because our fuel taxes are so low.
The REST of the truth is that approximately ONE-HALF of the fuel taxes are siphoned off by our state legislature and spent in the General Fund. For everything under the sun EXCEPT roads.
THAT is the one major reason why we have such terrible state roads.
A second major reason for terrible roads is that our Tulsa legislators do fight hard enough to get state road building for the metro Tulsa area. Oklahoma City and rural legislators team up to divide ALL the road building money, and Tulsa ends up with a few, measley crumbs. Oklahoma City has fine six lane highways running in every direction, and the rural areas have 4 lane roads running from No-Wheres-Ville to End-of-the-Earth, or Cordell to Clinton.
Finally, the Turnpike Addiction which has built many roads receives almost -0- Federal Funding for road building, only a minor pittance for signage. That is another major reason why Oklahoma has been a DONOR state on federal fuel tax for about 50 years, because building stupid Turnpikes denies access to the 80% Federal Funding for Interstate highways.
Until Sen. Inhofe temporarily got Oklahoma some additional Federal funding for road-building, Oklahoma had been a perpetual Donor State, due to the Turnpike Addiction. That money isn't coming back again with Inhofe now in the Senate minority.
The Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth.
[:O]
Bear,
I agree with what you have said too. And the weather is also a big factor. A huge one, in Oklahoma we need to be spending more money on roads and we get less money from the feds per capita and we get less from taxes. That all equals the fact that we have the worst roads in the nation. We should have been getting more from the feds and we should be paying more at the pump, we haven't been.
Sorry, but there is no free lunch.
More good news. Sorry, normally I'm a shiny happy person.
I wonder how often we lose funding like this.
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134590
Oklahoma is not a good state for asphalt roads- yet we persist because ostensibly they are cheaper going in. Far more expensive to maintain. Concrete with expansion joints works far better for the climate cycles we have.
Drive any stretch of road around Tulsa constructed from concrete, then drive down some asphalt. It's like driving down an aiport runway, then turning off onto the lunar landscape.
Doesn't matter if I have four flats and a bent frame by the time I get there, but by-God we will have a really cool river!
Another reason that Oklahoma doesn't have a lot of money for roads is because its population is small. There's not a lot of tax base to draw from.
Combine that with Oklahoma being a big state geographically and the other problems people have mentioned, and you have underfunded roads.
Not much is going to be done until the roads get SO bad that the public will *want* a gas-tax increase. I don't see any other solution, save for a heck of a lot of additional federal money.
There are many states with smaller population densities than Oklahoma (density is what matters for road funding). Heck, most Western states do. But our lack of concentration on roads, coupled with a lack of federal funding (look at the ratios sometime), the concentration of road monies in OKC and rural Oklahoma, as well as our hell on roads weather patterns lead to bad roads (hot hot hot, freeze thaw, lots of water = possibly the worst location for a road in the USA).
I have to agree, the roads are not good.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Bear,
I agree with what you have said too. And the weather is also a big factor. A huge one, in Oklahoma we need to be spending more money on roads and we get less money from the feds per capita and we get less from taxes. That all equals the fact that we have the worst roads in the nation. We should have been getting more from the feds and we should be paying more at the pump, we haven't been.
Sorry, but there is no free lunch.
Wonder if adding 5 feet and 8,000 pounds to the Federal Truck Weight limits has had any effect on our roads and bridges?? Now up to 53' and 80,000 pounds, vs. 48' and 72,000 lbs. for almost the entire life of the Interstate Highway System??
Did Arkansas-based Wal-Mart, Hunt Trucking, and Tysons get their very own Slick Willie to up the Federal weight and length limits for trucks?? Hmmmhh?
Yes, weather is a factor, too, with very wide swings in temperatures. You would think that there is at least one civil engineering graduate in Oklahoma who just might have a better idea on how to build Oklahoma roads to last.
But then again, if they engineered and built our roads to LAST, the engineering and road construction cartel would be actually WORSE off, because that would slow the road re-building and re-paving cycle.
So, what's their incentive for building roads to last? We use a lot of asphalt because of the powerful influence of companies such as Conoco and Phillips (now Conoco-Phillips!).
And, our road builders don't asphalt the roads in a manner to last. In Europe, they use an updated version of the old macadam process, and their asphalt roads stay in excellent condition for a long period of time.
And, merely raising the State Fuel Tax does NOT equal more road spending.
It just means more taxes.
It is a fact that already approximately 1/2 of the state fuel taxes are siphoned off for NON-ROAD related state spending.
And you want to give those rotten maggots in Oklahoma City HIGHER FUEL TAXES??
[}:)]
We encourage trucks to cross our state with really low diesel taxes and allow double and even triple tractor trailer rigs. If a single semi does that damage of 1000 cars, what does a triple rig do? And that's all aside from the danger aspect of allowing what is basically a train on the highway.
And we encourage trucks on our highways with low fuel taxes on our already poor roads? This is just beyond stupidity to me.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
We encourage trucks to cross our state with really low diesel taxes and allow double and even triple tractor trailer rigs. If a single semi does that damage of 1000 cars, what does a triple rig do? And that's all aside from the danger aspect of allowing what is basically a train on the highway.
And we encourage trucks on our highways with low fuel taxes on our already poor roads? This is just beyond stupidity to me.
As long as we have I-40, I-35, and I-44, there are going to be a LOT of trucks crossing Oklahoma. .
I-35 runs from Laredo to Minneapolis.
I-40 is coast to coast.
And, the heavy trucks do a LOT of damage to our highways and bridges
Uh, we could
ACTUALLY raise the fuel tax on
ONLY DIESEL FUEL.Anyone thought of
THAT!
Bear:
Europe has very nice roads because they have an ideal climate for roads to last, have less traffic, lighter vehicles, and much denser populations. Not to mention gas taxes that more than triple the cost of fuel and usage restrictions that remove large loads from the roadways. But I must insist, our climate has more to do with the roads than anything... go to a desert down and the roads are usually great. No water = better roads.
Not that the things you mentioned do not contribute nor that there shouldn't be a way to improve roads for weather.
quote:
I just finished a trip thru Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and parts of Wisconsin and I can say that without a doubt they all have better roads and bridges than we do.
It isn't even close.
Take Michigan and Wisconsin for example. I was in the far Northern parts of those states. Drove the entire state of Michigan, crossed the Mackinac Bridge, crossed the Michigan U.P. and then into Wisconsin. Anway...those roads are smooth as silk. I'm not just talking the major interstates either. It makes me sick that they have such nice roadways and bridges and we have such total crap. Hell their roads are built in a far worse environment, hello 260 inches of snow in an average year, than ours are and they look flawless.
I'm so mad right now I'm ready to march on OKC and ask them just what the F*** they have been doing with our money for so many years.
Ummm... and you are just now realizing this? This subject has been churned before on every Oklahoma forum.
But let me chime in on Missouri. You probably just got lucky in that state because when I drove through on I-44 through the entire state, especially in St. Louis, the highway surface was complete crap, even worse than most Oklahoma roads. But the worst state for roads? It's California. Just drive around Orange County for a while.
Oklahoma DOT increased its funding to play catch up on bridges, but it isn't enough to fix every road. They need to concentrate more funding for our highway system.
And, we are not that poor. Let go of 1987 Oklahoma. This is 2007. We are not hard up for money anymore. The state legislature needs to learn how to spend. And sparsely populated? Look at Kansas. VERY SPARSE, but better roads.
quote:
Originally posted by okcpulse
quote:
I just finished a trip thru Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan and parts of Wisconsin and I can say that without a doubt they all have better roads and bridges than we do.
It isn't even close.
Take Michigan and Wisconsin for example. I was in the far Northern parts of those states. Drove the entire state of Michigan, crossed the Mackinac Bridge, crossed the Michigan U.P. and then into Wisconsin. Anway...those roads are smooth as silk. I'm not just talking the major interstates either. It makes me sick that they have such nice roadways and bridges and we have such total crap. Hell their roads are built in a far worse environment, hello 260 inches of snow in an average year, than ours are and they look flawless.
I'm so mad right now I'm ready to march on OKC and ask them just what the F*** they have been doing with our money for so many years.
Ummm... and you are just now realizing this? This subject has been churned before on every Oklahoma forum.
But let me chime in on Missouri. You probably just got lucky in that state because when I drove through on I-44 through the entire state, especially in St. Louis, the highway surface was complete crap, even worse than most Oklahoma roads. But the worst state for roads? It's California. Just drive around Orange County for a while.
Oklahoma DOT increased its funding to play catch up on bridges, but it isn't enough to fix every road. They need to concentrate more funding for our highway system.
And, we are not that poor. Let go of 1987 Oklahoma. This is 2007. We are not hard up for money anymore. The state legislature needs to learn how to spend. And sparsely populated? Look at Kansas. VERY SPARSE, but better roads.
West Germany used to have 60 million people and was the size of the state of Oregon, yet maintained superior roads and highways with NO SPEED LIMIT.
Uh, and the extra high fuel taxes are used in European countries to pay for UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. Not necessarily roads.
Weather is certainly a factor in Oklahoma.
And, a couple of other things not previously mentioned:
The AGGREGATE used in our concrete is inferior, due to some freak of geology.
And, the major oil companies are allowed to sell inferior asphalt compound. That's been a problem all the way back to the 1950's when they were convicted of Asphalt Price Fixing.
In the summer, the asphalt softens until it just gets squished by the big trucks, and you end up with two deep ruts running down the lane.
Of course, rather than alter their tried-and-true formula for building inferior roads with inferior road building materials, their sock-puppet politicians just ask their affiliated useful idiots to promote the idea that the problem will be fixed with MORE MONEY!
We need to start using more concrete.
States...and COUNTRIES that use concrete spend a little more on the concrete itself but spend less in long-term maintenance. Concrete is also lighter. Trucks who haul concrete over asphalt get better gas mileage. Asphalt is getting more and more expensive. Just like asphalt, concrete is also recyclable. Unlike asphalt, concrete does not need oil to produce it, thus lowering how much you pay for gas. Concrete is much more visible as a road surface than asphalt (tell me this isn't the truth on a rainy night). Unlike asphalt, concrete does not have small grooves in it for water to seep into which ashpalt does. These grooves provide a place for water to settle in and make them slippery..and I don't even have to explain what happens in the winter time with these grooves. This makes concrete significantly less vulnerable to potholes or other road damage. Concrete's lifespan is more than double that of asphalt. Minnesota has developed concrete that is expected to last for more than 60 years without any major maintenance required...and that's in Minnesota..ya know, the land of a thousand lakes, massive snowfall, etc.
I have noticed that Oklahoma doesn't like to fix problems. Instead, we like to cover them up and pretend they aren't there. Instead of patching and causing a very uneven roadway, we just need to replace that particular section. We also need to get a better understanding of what seamless transitions are.
I myself drive a car with an aftermarket sports suspension. You think you feel the bumps in your stock Toyota Corolla...you have no idea how many uneven transitions, raised manholes, deep potholes, and piss-poor patch jobs there are in the state until you've ridden in a car with a sports suspension.
So ask yourself, is our money being spent wisely??
quote:
Originally posted by swake
We have the lowest fuel taxes in the entire nation.
It's really that simple, we have gotten what we have paid for, which is cheap gas and crappy roads, outside of metro Oklahoma City.
Don't forget the pollution, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
quote:
Originally posted by swake
We have the lowest fuel taxes in the entire nation.
It's really that simple, we have gotten what we have paid for, which is cheap gas and crappy roads, outside of metro Oklahoma City.
Don't forget the pollution, too.
And don't forget the pollution too, exactly right.
We should ban coal.
We should raise diesel taxes by 25 cents, put all of it to state road maintenance
And raise fuel taxes by 12 cents
.06 to get rid of turnpikes
.03 to cities and counties for local roads, apportioned by population
and .03 to mass transit
And give a .05 discount to biodiesel and ethanol
^Oklahoma legislatures, where are you? Your fuel taxing answers are right there.
quote:
Originally posted by TurismoDreamin
^Oklahoma legislatures, where are you? Your fuel taxing answers are right there.
I was gonna say the same thing. Even my buddy Friendly Bear is talking sense.
Heaving soils are definitely a problem round these parts. If you were going to do concrete right, you'd want to start with a deep, well-drained base, not our clay gumbo.
And then, apparently, you can use potato-chip ingredients (//%22http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2007/08/a_frito_lay_sol.html%22) now to seal the concrete.
Another option, rather than struggling with difficult subsoils, is to look for more elastic, yet impermeable, overlays, layers, membranes, etc...I think those guys at SemGroup (//%22http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/contractors/infrastructure/sem/%22) could figure something out.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Bear:
Europe has very nice roads because they have an ideal climate for roads to last, have less traffic, lighter vehicles, and much denser populations. Not to mention gas taxes that more than triple the cost of fuel and usage restrictions that remove large loads from the roadways. But I must insist, our climate has more to do with the roads than anything... go to a desert down and the roads are usually great. No water = better roads.
Not that the things you mentioned do not contribute nor that there shouldn't be a way to improve roads for weather.
That's not entirely true. There are many parts of Germany with similar weather systems to ours, but I drove from one end to the other (crying every time I filled the gas tank) and the highways were smooth as glass. They simply put better materials in the roads, and engineer them to last 50 years, instead of our 20. They are more expensive, but most Germans are fine with paying taxes as long as they get something out of them, like the Autobahn, It seems to many people around here will demand better roads, but whine when they have to pay for them.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsascoot
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Bear:
Europe has very nice roads because they have an ideal climate for roads to last, have less traffic, lighter vehicles, and much denser populations. Not to mention gas taxes that more than triple the cost of fuel and usage restrictions that remove large loads from the roadways. But I must insist, our climate has more to do with the roads than anything... go to a desert down and the roads are usually great. No water = better roads.
Not that the things you mentioned do not contribute nor that there shouldn't be a way to improve roads for weather.
That's not entirely true. There are many parts of Germany with similar weather systems to ours, but I drove from one end to the other (crying every time I filled the gas tank) and the highways were smooth as glass. They simply put better materials in the roads, and engineer them to last 50 years, instead of our 20. They are more expensive, but most Germans are fine with paying taxes as long as they get something out of them, like the Autobahn, It seems to many people around here will demand better roads, but whine when they have to pay for them.
One thing the Germans do is have the builder bond the road and pay for any repairs for 30 years, so the incentive to build a good road is really there. Again, more expensive in the short term, but a better road.
quote:
Originally posted by TurismoDreamin
We also need to get a better understanding of what seamless transitions are.
I myself drive a car with an aftermarket sports suspension. You think you feel the bumps in your stock Toyota Corolla...you have no idea how many uneven transitions, raised manholes, deep potholes, and piss-poor patch jobs there are in the state until you've ridden in a car with a sports suspension.
God this is true. My ride is low to the ground and has a sports supsension. I brought it up 69/75 yesterday and even the Indian Nations Turnpike was awful. The transitions are a joke!
Seems that the Feds rebates to the state and its subdivisions one dollar of the road tax per month for each person counted in the 2000 census. Where does that money go?
Well Tulsa takes one desk job to supervise one and one half workers in the field.
Could we be led to believe that this also happens on the state level?
Hi! I've noticed a glaring difference when vacationing. You drive over the border and like magic the roads are new-looking and smooth. No bumps or potholes. Next week I'm going to Missouri, can't wait to drive on smooth roads and actually have decent bathroom stops. There's nothing like holding it in while trying to speed to the McDonalds that's 30 minutes away.