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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: carltonplace on August 15, 2007, 01:57:24 PM

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: carltonplace on August 15, 2007, 01:57:24 PM
Or so the TW reports:
Tulsa World Article (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070815_5__Mauri70410%22)
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: USRufnex on August 15, 2007, 02:31:30 PM
Wow.  Just wow.

Gives a little more insight as to why Kanbar seems to be stuck in a "wait-and-see" mode with those properties...
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 15, 2007, 02:42:35 PM
I love the comment feature on TW online:

"welp, there goes downtown. Maybe the IRS will repossess all the properties and demolish them to sell the scrap materials."

Brilliant analysis.  That guy needs to send his computer back to Blue Hippo.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: USRufnex on August 15, 2007, 02:51:49 PM
heh-heh... too bad the World can't put that on pg. 2 and bring back its Call the Editor section...

I once called in as a joke back when the state was debating the legalization of tattoo parlors (2001?)... think I said some crackpot stuff about tattoos and the book of Leviticus........ they printed it.... bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah!...... suckers. [8D]
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 15, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: USRufnex on August 15, 2007, 03:11:49 PM
Nope, they won't be forthcoming... cuz I remember what you posted on the subject previously but will defer all comments to someone else...

Sick 'em, Bruno...
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 15, 2007, 03:30:35 PM
more crack pot stuff....
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: PreserveSouthTulsa.com on August 15, 2007, 03:33:33 PM
I hope Kanbar prevails.  I am always behind a guy that his tenants cookies. [:D]

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Steve L on August 15, 2007, 04:19:54 PM
You may be interested in the story published at www.newsok.com last night and in this morning's Oklahoman: "Tulsa Rift: $20 million lawsuit divides investors"
http://newsok.com/article/3105112
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Renaissance on August 15, 2007, 05:07:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





Apologies.  I scoffed at you, although I'm not sure I did so publicly.

Regardless, the partnership's grand plan for downtown is most likely over.  This became apparent when the OU/Philbrook partnership chose Brady over "Mayo Place."  If Kanbar does liquidate his Tulsa holdings, though, there is a potential silver lining: a sudden glut of low priced, historic real estate that could attract several creative investors.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 15, 2007, 05:22:15 PM
Love gone bad....

Perhaps a better opportunity exists just around the corner. Some of their portfolio is impressive, especially with the street improvements.

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 15, 2007, 05:35:54 PM
The additional stories aren't really smoking gun material.  Just another case of someone being trusted with a blank check book.  

I guess we'll know soon enough what that means for downtown.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Renaissance on August 15, 2007, 05:41:28 PM
Well it's not going to get any worse for downtown.  They already tore down the two structures that would be worth demolishing.

It's quite possible that Kanbar will stick with his investment, and just hire competent people.  Sounds like liquidity may be an issue, especially with the current real estate market, but I bet he finds funds if he goes looking.

There's also another K out there with some spare cash on hand . . .
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: AMP on August 15, 2007, 11:03:17 PM
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070810_5_E1_hKanb58616

Three firms planning 321 Quality Jobs

Kanbar Properties, Tulsa Winch and Thermal Engineering International envision larger work forces.

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: brunoflipper on August 16, 2007, 08:50:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

more crack pot stuff....


hey settle down, i admitted last july that i'd heard that they were on the outs and that whole development was at risk of going tits up and i admitted you may have been correct in claiming there were problems (threw you a bone)... but you had said they were all for sale, which they weren't and still aren't, which is diff'rent...

july post (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4595&SearchTerms=kanbar%22)
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: swake on August 16, 2007, 09:18:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





No, what you said was that the buildings were all back for sale, and that was over a year ago and they still are not all for sale.

And hey, how's that failure Riverwalk doing while we are looking at your prognostication skills. It's so sad to see the place in foreclosure and all those empty storefronts, oh wait, it's fully leased and still packed, missed on that too. Didn't you also say that the first Ruby Tuesday was going to be by Best Buy on I-44? How is that location working out, oh wait, that was wrong too?

And, the kicker, your user name is still misspelled. The album is Aoxomoxoa.


Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: jne on August 16, 2007, 09:23:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





No, what you said was that the buildings were all back for sale, and that was over a year ago and they still are not all for sale.

And hey, how's that failure Riverwalk doing while we are looking at your prognostication skills. It's so sad to see the place in foreclosure and all those empty storefronts, oh wait, it's fully leased and still packed, missed on that too. Didn't you also say that the first Ruby Tuesday was going to be by Best Buy on I-44? How is that location working out, oh wait, that was wrong too?

And, the kicker, your user name is still misspelled. The album is Aoxomoxoa.






I always assumed his name was Max...
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Townsend on August 16, 2007, 09:46:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jne

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





No, what you said was that the buildings were all back for sale, and that was over a year ago and they still are not all for sale.

And hey, how's that failure Riverwalk doing while we are looking at your prognostication skills. It's so sad to see the place in foreclosure and all those empty storefronts, oh wait, it's fully leased and still packed, missed on that too. Didn't you also say that the first Ruby Tuesday was going to be by Best Buy on I-44? How is that location working out, oh wait, that was wrong too?

And, the kicker, your user name is still misspelled. The album is Aoxomoxoa.






I always assumed his name was Max...

 



Swake's right though, it's spelled wrong
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: RecycleMichael on August 16, 2007, 10:58:23 AM
Kanbar owns my office building.

These guys didn't invest in Tulsa, they purchased in Tulsa. They were buying buildings like another collector might buy cars or guns.

Pick out the ones you want to keep and sell the others.

Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Rico on August 16, 2007, 12:47:09 PM
"Gives a little more insight as to why Kanbar seems to be stuck in a "wait-and-see" mode with those properties..."
^
Could not agree more....Rufnex

First thing you and your accountants would want to do in this situation is to put a freeze on things that could cause more problems... Until it is all sorted out.

Also may go quite a way in the reason Mister Kanbar turned down the V2025 Downtown money he was awarded..

Not the end maybe just the beginning....
[8D]
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: jne on August 16, 2007, 12:55:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend

quote:
Originally posted by jne

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





No, what you said was that the buildings were all back for sale, and that was over a year ago and they still are not all for sale.

And hey, how's that failure Riverwalk doing while we are looking at your prognostication skills. It's so sad to see the place in foreclosure and all those empty storefronts, oh wait, it's fully leased and still packed, missed on that too. Didn't you also say that the first Ruby Tuesday was going to be by Best Buy on I-44? How is that location working out, oh wait, that was wrong too?

And, the kicker, your user name is still misspelled. The album is Aoxomoxoa.






I always assumed his name was Max...

 



Swake's right though, it's spelled wrong



Umm... yeah, thats why the Mox would be changed to Max.  If it wasn't on purpose, I'd be glad to join the roast.  No self-respecting know-it-all deadhead would let him get away with that! LOL
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Townsend on August 16, 2007, 02:01:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jne

quote:
Originally posted by Townsend

quote:
Originally posted by jne

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Seems like the axman here alluded to this over a year ago and was dismissed.

Apologies are in order but not forthcoming.





No, what you said was that the buildings were all back for sale, and that was over a year ago and they still are not all for sale.

And hey, how's that failure Riverwalk doing while we are looking at your prognostication skills. It's so sad to see the place in foreclosure and all those empty storefronts, oh wait, it's fully leased and still packed, missed on that too. Didn't you also say that the first Ruby Tuesday was going to be by Best Buy on I-44? How is that location working out, oh wait, that was wrong too?

And, the kicker, your user name is still misspelled. The album is Aoxomoxoa.






I always assumed his name was Max...

 



Swake's right though, it's spelled wrong



Umm... yeah, thats why the Mox would be changed to Max.  If it wasn't on purpose, I'd be glad to join the roast.  No self-respecting know-it-all deadhead would let him get away with that! LOL



Ah that explains it.  It's been bugging me for a while.  Guess I've appreciated too much of their music the correct way.  I've dained my bramage.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: T-Town Now on August 16, 2007, 02:27:45 PM
Well this explains a lot. The buildings Kanbar bought are not being maintained very well. The Bank of America tower is supposed to be Class A office space, yet look at the flower beds around the building. Not much going on there. A few trees died, and they were pulled but never replaced.

I've heard that leases take FOREVER to get signed and approved, too. Not good for a business that needs to know if they have office space or not.

Hopefully, this will all be worked out soon, because many of Kanbar's buildings need attention, and they aren't getting it so far.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: MichaelBates on August 16, 2007, 02:38:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now

Well this explains a lot. The buildings Kanbar bought are not being maintained very well. The Bank of America tower is supposed to be Class A office space, yet look at the flower beds around the building. Not much going on there. A few trees died, and they were pulled but never replaced.



Graffiti vandals are running wild with Kanbar's Tulsa Club building at 5th and Cincinnati. If the building were secured, I don't think they'd be able to spray paint the places they've hit. I don't remember that building having a graffiti problem before Kanbar bought it.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 16, 2007, 02:58:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now

Well this explains a lot. The buildings Kanbar bought are not being maintained very well. The Bank of America tower is supposed to be Class A office space, yet look at the flower beds around the building. Not much going on there. A few trees died, and they were pulled but never replaced.



Graffiti vandals are running wild with Kanbar's Tulsa Club building at 5th and Cincinnati. If the building were secured, I don't think they'd be able to spray paint the places they've hit. I don't remember that building having a graffiti problem before Kanbar bought it.



Maybe Kanbar has some form of grafitti Tourette's Syndrome? [}:)]
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: cannon_fodder on August 16, 2007, 03:05:27 PM
I had high hopes when he started his collection, it began to wane as I saw little action, then turned to some concern when he was going to demolish one for "green space," then overt concern when he turned it into a parking lot, then hostility when he declined the V2025 loft funding and let another building sit and rot.

We knew this was going bad, we just didnt know why.  What's probably the worst, is all the press calling an investment in downtown Tulsa just short of criminal.

I hope something gets done, I don't care by who.  Maybe he will take a huge loss and someone can steal them cheap and have money to invest in them.  Though, I boldly predict this signals YEARS of setback for downtown.  It is unlikely he will sell or invest while this is being litigated.  3 years from now, when the case washes through, maybe something will happen downtown.  [V]

Hope I'm wrong.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: swake on August 16, 2007, 03:43:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:
Originally posted by T-Town Now

Well this explains a lot. The buildings Kanbar bought are not being maintained very well. The Bank of America tower is supposed to be Class A office space, yet look at the flower beds around the building. Not much going on there. A few trees died, and they were pulled but never replaced.



Graffiti vandals are running wild with Kanbar's Tulsa Club building at 5th and Cincinnati. If the building were secured, I don't think they'd be able to spray paint the places they've hit. I don't remember that building having a graffiti problem before Kanbar bought it.



Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that's NOT one of his buildings
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: MichaelBates on August 16, 2007, 03:50:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates


Graffiti vandals are running wild with Kanbar's Tulsa Club building at 5th and Cincinnati. If the building were secured, I don't think they'd be able to spray paint the places they've hit. I don't remember that building having a graffiti problem before Kanbar bought it.



Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that's NOT one of his buildings



Thanks for the correction. That would be one of the few downtown art deco buildings that he didn't buy. Any idea who does own it?
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: swake on August 16, 2007, 04:12:42 PM
The application for the 2025 housing money for the Tulsa Club building was made under the name of "The Tulsa Club Development Co.", I have heard the owners are out of state and unwilling to sell at any reasonable price.

On another note, while the grand vision of lofts and such in Kanbar's properties seems to be gone, at least for now. He does not show any signs of wanting to let the buildings sit and decline, or even any plans to sell them.

Kanbar has applied for "Quality Jobs Act" money from the state with plans to hire 80 people to manage his properties and this is from the Tulsa World talking to the Kanbar's spokesman:

Quote:
"Kanbar Properties is definitely poised to stay in Tulsa and expand," he said. "We're excited about it."
Plans for loft apartments are not a priority at this time, Baranowski said.

"At this time we're concentrating our efforts on the commercial side," he said.

Baranowski said leasing in the office sector has been better than anticipated. The company signed a new lease with Laredo Petroleum for 10,357 square feet in the Bank of America Center, a new lease with Atkinson Haskins Nellis Holeman Phipps Brittingham & Gladd for 24,916 square feet at the Park Centre Building, and renewed its lease with the Petroleum Club at the Petroleum Club building.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070810_5_E1_hKanb58616




The World says that the lawsuit does not even mention the Tulsa properties as being any reason for the lawsuit, much less the entire reason as the spin seems to be from the Oklahoman. The truth as always probably is somewhere in the middle.

Kanbar seems far from unhappy with owning the buildings, the reality is that he probably paid too high a premium for them and that one of the sources of the lawsuit, but just one among others. The World mentioned some financial misdeeds with Kanbar's charities as well as some questionable commission payments. The truth here will take time.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 16, 2007, 04:36:43 PM
Anybody here recognize what our monopolistic whirling writers omitted from the article today that was in the okc report yesterday?




Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 16, 2007, 04:46:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates


Graffiti vandals are running wild with Kanbar's Tulsa Club building at 5th and Cincinnati. If the building were secured, I don't think they'd be able to spray paint the places they've hit. I don't remember that building having a graffiti problem before Kanbar bought it.



Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that's NOT one of his buildings



Thanks for the correction. That would be one of the few downtown art deco buildings that he didn't buy. Any idea who does own it?




I thinketh BOK dumped the Tulsa Club building for $250,000 to a gentleman out of the bay area.
It's loaded with asbestos and the deferred maintenance which will make it unresurectable (not a word but who cares...you know what I mean).
Trinity will someday buy it and make it another parking lot. There's BIG money for that in the congregation and they will not have to pay property taxes on it...Just abatement, demolition expenses, and pavement. It's the theme downtown you know.

That's my prediction.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: sgrizzle on August 16, 2007, 04:47:09 PM
It's a california investor that owns tulsa club. They are not keeping it secure by any stretch of the imagination.

I kinda thought Kaufman was out of the picture long ago..
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 17, 2007, 12:54:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

Anybody here recognize what our monopolistic whirling writers omitted from the article today that was in the okc report yesterday?








I am pretty sure the part about the couple living together in NYC was left out of the late version whirled story.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: dsjeffries on August 17, 2007, 02:20:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I am pretty sure the part about the couple living together in NYC was left out of the late version whirled story.



The story said nothing of them living 'together' or being a couple at all.  Just that they both lived in New York City.  Martin Short and Dick Cavett came to my building in NYC once--does that make them a couple?

And you talk about whirled...
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 17, 2007, 08:40:57 AM
you are correct...
"The lawsuit states Kanbar looked to Kaufman as both a "trusted confidant" and as a financial advisor, and that the millionaire chose to focus his time on his inventions rather than on the financial details of his investments. In 1984, Kanbar moved from New York to San Francisco, but continued to rely on Kaufman for advice. He invited Kaufman to move from New York to San Francisco to be his financial manager and oversee his investments, business endeavors and philanthropic activities. "

I was reading more into the OKC story than I should have.

FYI, they lived together.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Renaissance on August 17, 2007, 09:59:13 AM
Ohhhhh. . .

So this is actually a "divorce" proceeding.  Makes sense, come to think of it.  Too bad for us - Tulsa got caught in the middle of a couple's spat.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2007, 10:17:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

you are correct...
"The lawsuit states Kanbar looked to Kaufman as both a "trusted confidant" and as a financial advisor, and that the millionaire chose to focus his time on his inventions rather than on the financial details of his investments. In 1984, Kanbar moved from New York to San Francisco, but continued to rely on Kaufman for advice. He invited Kaufman to move from New York to San Francisco to be his financial manager and oversee his investments, business endeavors and philanthropic activities. "

I was reading more into the OKC story than I should have.

FYI, they lived together.



Aox, why do you care?  Jealous?
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: swake on August 17, 2007, 11:13:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

you are correct...
"The lawsuit states Kanbar looked to Kaufman as both a "trusted confidant" and as a financial advisor, and that the millionaire chose to focus his time on his inventions rather than on the financial details of his investments. In 1984, Kanbar moved from New York to San Francisco, but continued to rely on Kaufman for advice. He invited Kaufman to move from New York to San Francisco to be his financial manager and oversee his investments, business endeavors and philanthropic activities. "

I was reading more into the OKC story than I should have.

FYI, they lived together.



If that is true than you are an (ahem) for "outing" two men who have not choosen to be "out".
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 17, 2007, 11:19:29 AM
MOD....swake needs a shake....

and yes, i am jealous that i do not own downtown property.
not.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2007, 01:54:40 PM
Unless you've been to their house and witnessed a co-habitation situation, then it's not really appropriate to make such a claim.  Really not even appropriate if you have been to their house for dinner before.   Why didn't you just say they've watched movies over at George Kravis' house before?

I've never known you to let facts get in the way of a good story, so I'll chalk it up to being one of your fantasies.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 17, 2007, 02:33:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

Unless you've been to their house and witnessed a co-habitation situation, then it's not really appropriate to make such a claim.  Really not even appropriate if you have been to their house for dinner before.   Why didn't you just say they've watched movies over at George Kravis' house before?

I've never known you to let facts get in the way of a good story, so I'll chalk it up to being one of your fantasies.






Now that's just wrong!
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Conan71 on August 17, 2007, 02:35:29 PM
For the sake of this discussion, Kanbar and Kaufman's sexual proclivities are totally irrelevant.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Renaissance on August 17, 2007, 03:27:45 PM
It's relevant that the source of the feud between the former partners, in which many architectural gems of downtown Tulsa are concerned, might not be financial in nature.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: aoxamaxoa on August 17, 2007, 03:35:08 PM
I agree Conan....sorry I brought it up. The thought of two old geezers.....never mind.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: inteller on August 19, 2007, 09:43:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa

I agree Conan....sorry I brought it up. The thought of two old geezers.....never mind.

 yeah, throw in some lint rollers and Skyy Vodka and you have some intereting situations.
Title: Kanbar sues Kaufman
Post by: Admin on August 19, 2007, 01:20:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71

For the sake of this discussion, Kanbar and Kaufman's sexual proclivities are totally irrelevant.



Correct.