http://tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070809_1__Facin42121
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PSO pulls the plug on plan to bury power lines in Maple Ridge
By STAFF REPORTS
8/9/2007 5:13 PM
Facing an organized "Stop the Box" campaign against plans to bury power lines in people's front yards, officials decided Thursday to not bury the lines at all in Tulsa's historic Maple Ridge neighborhood.
Homeowners had been asking the power company to bury the lines in their back yards, where the above-ground transformer boxes wouldn't be visible from the street. But officials said the idea wasn't possible.
Now the lines won't be buried in front or back, at least for the foreseeable future, said Ed Bettinger, a spokesman for American Electric Power-Public Service Company of Oklahoma.
"We've decided not to go forward with the project at this time," Bettinger said.
Some Maple Ridge residents wanted PSO to run powerlines around houses, under pools, under sheds and run them through the backyards which would not facilitate trenching or any other heavy equipment. Apparently PSO does not yet have "magic fairy dust" technology that allows you to bury the lines without affecting the structures around them. All this to avoid something like 12 transformer boxes in the front yards.
I'm sure everyone who doesn't have buried lines yet is glad MR made it into such a fiasco.
I guess I didn't think the green boxes were too ugly. Yes, they would be weird to have in the front yard, but couldn't you landscape around it...hide it with a bush?
If I'm a homeowner with a $400,000 investment in a beautiful property, I'm not letting you put a big green box in the front yard without a fight. Whether it's ugly or not, landscape-able or not.
I think it's unfortunate that they couldn't figure out a way around it. But I mean, honestly, isn't the point of buried power lines to improve the aesthetics of a neighborhood? And how is it improved with 3'x3' green metal cubes in every fifth front yard?
Those folks also used their money stroke and wouldn't allow the city to widen Peoria between 21st and 31st when it came up for repairs. So, instead of a wider, safer street, all Tulsan's ended up with an expensive, and still unsafe, overlay.
Safety be damned!
Michael...you are exactly right. Those boxes are ALL over south tulsa, and you never notice them because they have been landscaped around them.
Here is my question...what was to happen to the phone and cable lines? Weren't they going to remain on poles?
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Now the lines won't be buried in front or back, at least for the foreseeable future, said Ed Bettinger, a spokesman for American Electric Power-Public Service Company of Oklahoma.
But this is what AEP wanted all along, isnt it?
Cheap and easy overhead lines instead of investing in a more reliable buried system?
Doing a job you were forced to do as poorly as you can in retaliation is the logic of an eight year old child.
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Originally posted by Floyd
If I'm a homeowner with a $400,000 investment in a beautiful property, I'm not letting you put a big green box in the front yard without a fight. Whether it's ugly or not, landscape-able or not.
I think it's unfortunate that they couldn't figure out a way around it. But I mean, honestly, isn't the point of buried power lines to improve the aesthetics of a neighborhood? And how is it improved with 3'x3' green metal cubes in every fifth front yard?
No, that is NOT the point if burying lines. The point is to increase reliability. As stated before, just because PSO buries a line has little or no effect on whether the poles go away. No neighborhood should get special treatment. If they want something done differently, it should be on their dime.
This same group and mentality is the reason a lot of stuff gets spoiled in this town.
No, seems like the boxes in South Tulsa are in backyards- not the front. Somehow I've managed to live at two different houses in planned neighborhoods with U/G power and wound up with the big green box in my backyard. It was in the next door neighbor's yard at another property.
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Originally posted by Conan71
No, seems like the boxes in South Tulsa are in backyards- not the front. Somehow I've managed to live at two different houses in planned neighborhoods with U/G power and wound up with the big green box in my backyard. It was in the next door neighbor's yard at another property.
They are in the backyards in many neighborhoods because they predate the houses. Those boxes generally require a backhoe and a crane to install. See what the Maple Ridgers think of driving a backhoe through their bckyard.
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Originally posted by pfox
Here is my question...what was to happen to the phone and cable lines? Weren't they going to remain on poles?
Yes. I have changed my mind about the "green boxes" for my neighborhood (26th & Yale area.) At first I wanted none of it, but now I don't think it would be that bad. But the poles, cable and phone lines would remain. Why go to all the trouble and expense, which we utility customers will all pay for in the long run, if they don't bury all the lines at the same time eliminate the poles entirely? Until they do this, I will oppose burying the PSO lines in my neighborhood.
I will welcome the green boxes with open arms....PSO come on over.......I have been waiting for this shoe to drop....Good for PSO to push on....What a bunch of numpty's in that area with there "Stop the Box" signs.....
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Originally posted by Steve
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Originally posted by pfox
Here is my question...what was to happen to the phone and cable lines? Weren't they going to remain on poles?
Yes. I have changed my mind about the "green boxes" for my neighborhood (26th & Yale area.) At first I wanted none of it, but now I don't think it would be that bad. But the poles, cable and phone lines would remain. Why go to all the trouble and expense, which we utility customers will all pay for in the long run, if they don't bury all the lines at the same time eliminate the poles entirely? Until they do this, I will oppose burying the PSO lines in my neighborhood.
When you get walmart, target and food pyramid to all sell milk for 50c a gallon, then pursue this.
Since the city isn't paying the utilities to bury, what motivation do the other utilities have to follow suit?
The green boxes do end powerlines being downed in neighborhoods during storms, but they are not impervious to failure. Water would get into one of them in a neighborhood I lived in and would knock a few blocks off the grid everytime we got a good thunderstorm. After numerous calls, PSO finally sent a backhoe into someone's back yard to fix the problem.
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Originally posted by Conan71
The green boxes do end powerlines being downed in neighborhoods during storms, but they are not impervious to failure. Water would get into one of them in a neighborhood I lived in and would knock a few blocks off the grid everytime we got a good thunderstorm. After numerous calls, PSO finally sent a backhoe into someone's back yard to fix the problem.
Sounds like the green boxes get the "Belvedere" treatment when it comes to waterproofing...[:O]
Numpty? Thats a new one for me.
If it doesnt' get rid of the poles then why the fuss? As one of the more modest homes in the hood I'm sure I would get the honor of landscaping around the box.
We haven't lost juice here since PSO did some long needed trimming. Did it piss people off? Yes. Like thats something new and different with any move. I think asking to put them in the back yard was never feasible and if we put green boxes in the front, why not silver gas meters?
The decision was fine with me.
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Originally posted by recyclemichael
I guess I didn't think the green boxes were too ugly. Yes, they would be weird to have in the front yard, but couldn't you landscape around it...hide it with a bush?
what is this 'bush' thing you speak of? I'm just an unfrozen caveman lawyer with a house in MR. These concepts confuse me...to think that you could 'hide' something that is already green and matches the color of my yard.
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/2/22/Unfrozen_Caveman_Lawyer.jpg)
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Originally posted by sgrizzle
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Originally posted by Steve
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Originally posted by pfox
Here is my question...what was to happen to the phone and cable lines? Weren't they going to remain on poles?
Yes. I have changed my mind about the "green boxes" for my neighborhood (26th & Yale area.) At first I wanted none of it, but now I don't think it would be that bad. But the poles, cable and phone lines would remain. Why go to all the trouble and expense, which we utility customers will all pay for in the long run, if they don't bury all the lines at the same time eliminate the poles entirely? Until they do this, I will oppose burying the PSO lines in my neighborhood.
When you get walmart, target and food pyramid to all sell milk for 50c a gallon, then pursue this.
Since the city isn't paying the utilities to bury, what motivation do the other utilities have to follow suit?
No the city isn't paying for it, we the captive electric company customers are.
I suppose it is sheer folly on my part to think that PSO, Cox, SWB/AT&T and all the companies that use the power poles for transmission lines could come together, synergize their efforts, and eliminate the poles and unsightly above ground wires altogether. If they could muster the guts and cooperation to do that, I would fully support the line burial in my neighborhood. Until then, I do not.
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Originally posted by Steve
I suppose it is sheer folly on my part to think that PSO, Cox, SWB/AT&T and all the companies that use the power poles for transmission lines could come together, synergize their efforts, and eliminate the poles and unsightly above ground wires altogether. If they could muster the guts and cooperation to do that, I would fully support the line burial in my neighborhood. Until then, I do not.
When that happensm akk of the auto manufacturers will switch to hybrids only, SUV production will halt, McDonalds will feel guilty and shut down and so will all the cigarette companies.
This all seems very "Miss America."
Everyone complains about reliability, environmentalism, aesthetics and rates. Most power companies can do 2 pretty well, 3 pretty well, and with 4 you're breaking the laws of physics.
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Originally posted by sgrizzle
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Originally posted by Steve
I suppose it is sheer folly on my part to think that PSO, Cox, SWB/AT&T and all the companies that use the power poles for transmission lines could come together, synergize their efforts, and eliminate the poles and unsightly above ground wires altogether. If they could muster the guts and cooperation to do that, I would fully support the line burial in my neighborhood. Until then, I do not.
When that happensm akk of the auto manufacturers will switch to hybrids only, SUV production will halt, McDonalds will feel guilty and shut down and so will all the cigarette companies.
This all seems very "Miss America."
Everyone complains about reliability, environmentalism, aesthetics and rates. Most power companies can do 2 pretty well, 3 pretty well, and with 4 you're breaking the laws of physics.
Well I am sorry sqrizzle, if my opinions are too "Miss America" for you. I just thought that if PSO was going to go through the expense of burying the lines, that the other TV and communication utilities might save some money and bury their lines at the same time, eliminate the poles altogether, beautify our Tulsa neighborhoods, and save us rate payers some money in the process. Silly me. Lets just do it one company at a time so all the utilities can tack on fees and up the rates as they each bury the lines, when they could have done it all at one time much cheaper.
I don't give a damn about 2, 3, or 4 utility companies involved. I am just talking about common sense and combining efforts. If PSO comes in my neighborhood to bury lines without the cable and phones lines also to be buried, then I will loudly oppose this. It is just plain common sense, something most utilities and you have forgotten.
Hey, Steve, they can't work together, legally. When I asked my AT&T lineman to move the line over my backyard next to the cable line, he practically read the law to me. They can't even be within two feet of each other. Very competitive situation.
I don't see huge utilities working together for the sake of their customers, as odd as that sounds. Their first priority is to provide reliable service to us...at a profit. Then what we would like to have cosmetically is farther down the list. There was a time when PSO wouldn't even ask about putting green boxes in my front yard. Those days are over.
They use the law as an excuse. They are competative because they are increasingly offering the same services. Cable used to just be TV. But they started offering phone service, since digitally, it can be pulled off. The phone company used to just offer telephone service. And then digital internet (DSL) which was competative with cable. Now they try to enter the video market since video is digitally transferred over those net connects. Cable vs. Phone is at a cutthroat competative level right now. They would both rather make the consumer suffer than cooperate with one another.
Waterboy, I'm pretty sure your AT&T guy was just doing what he was told to demonize the evil cable company that didn't want to cooperate on a simple common-sense project of utility consolidation.
This whole thing about the companies not cooperating helps me to understand Maple Ridge opposing the deal though. Gaining a big box in your yard, but still having utilities on poles at the same time? What is the benefit in that? I'm just as pissed when my internet, phone, or TV die as I am when the power goes out. At least when you have above ground electric, the tree trimming crews will come out to ensure there isn't interference with branches on those lines. Do Cox or AT&T do anything of that sort?
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This whole thing about the companies not cooperating helps me to understand Maple Ridge opposing the deal though. Gaining a big box in your yard, but still having utilities on poles at the same time? What is the benefit in that? I'm just as pissed when my internet, phone, or TV die as I am when the power goes out. At least when you have above ground electric, the tree trimming crews will come out to ensure there isn't interference with branches on those lines. Do Cox or AT&T do anything of that sort?
PSO can't win, no matter what they do. They get complained on when the power goes out. They get yelled at for trimming the trees. Now they get yelled at for trying to bury the lines.
I would assume moving everyone's electricity to the backyards is a problem of rights-of-way. They probably have utility easements in the front yards, but not the back. I can't even imagine the legal problems of taking on even more easements in people's back yards. People built things in their backyards knowing there was no easement. What happens when a utility tries to come in a change an easement and starts tearing up pools, sheds, ......?
Mapleridge doesn't want their power lines buried in the front easements, fine. Then put up with the power outages and shut up!
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Originally posted by Wilbur
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This whole thing about the companies not cooperating helps me to understand Maple Ridge opposing the deal though. Gaining a big box in your yard, but still having utilities on poles at the same time? What is the benefit in that? I'm just as pissed when my internet, phone, or TV die as I am when the power goes out. At least when you have above ground electric, the tree trimming crews will come out to ensure there isn't interference with branches on those lines. Do Cox or AT&T do anything of that sort?
PSO can't win, no matter what they do. They get complained on when the power goes out. They get yelled at for trimming the trees. Now they get yelled at for trying to bury the lines.
I would assume moving everyone's electricity to the backyards is a problem of rights-of-way. They probably have utility easements in the front yards, but not the back. I can't even imagine the legal problems of taking on even more easements in people's back yards. People built things in their backyards knowing there was no easement. What happens when a utility tries to come in a change an easement and starts tearing up pools, sheds, ......?
Mapleridge doesn't want their power lines buried in the front easements, fine. Then put up with the power outages and shut up!
No, the easements are in the backyard. There is an easement with the city already existing in the front yard (streets & water), which allows them to put the wires there.
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Originally posted by Steve I don't give a damn about 2, 3, or 4 utility companies involved. I am just talking about common sense and combining efforts. If PSO comes in my neighborhood to bury lines without the cable and phones lines also to be buried, then I will loudly oppose this. It is just plain common sense, something most utilities and you have forgotten.
The way it's supposed to work is once the power is undergrounded, co-located utilities sharing the pole (cable, phone) also migrate to buried service when the electric utility stops supporting the poles. How long the migration takes is another matter, but the city
could have some say in the form of their franchise agreement with the utility.
An ordinance mandating undergrounding for all new construction would be a fine addition to the new Comprehensive Plan, as well as a timetable for conversion of the rest of the city (especially the areas where knocking down one pole affects 14,000 customers, ahem.)
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Originally posted by patric
The way it's supposed to work is once the power is undergrounded, co-located utilities sharing the pole (cable, phone) also migrate to buried service when the electric utility stops supporting the poles. How long the migration takes is another matter, but the city could have some say in the form of their franchise agreement with the utility.
An ordinance mandating undergrounding for all new construction would be a fine addition to the new Comprehensive Plan, as well as a timetable for conversion of the rest of the city (especially the areas where knocking down one pole affects 14,000 customers, ahem.)
The line that was taken out was a high-voltage transmission line, which would probably be at the very end of the underground priority list, if ever. The vehicle that took out the line (driven by a distant relative of mine) was hit and knocked into the pole at pretty high speed.
I am glad you know who this is.
I might file a lawsuit for the loss of a freezer full of frozen pizzas and ice cream sandwiches.
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Originally posted by recyclemichael
I am glad you know who this is.
I might file a lawsuit for the loss of a freezer full of frozen pizzas and ice cream sandwiches.
I don't know who caused the accident, but the woman who got knocked into the pole is at St Francis with her back broken.
My neighborhood didn't lose power. I was just looking at a way to get some more junk food in the freezer.
Sorry to hear about your relative. Hope they get OK.
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Originally posted by recyclemichael
I am glad you know who this is.
I might file a lawsuit for the loss of a freezer full of frozen pizzas and ice cream sandwiches.
You mean your freezer full of lobster, filet mignon, dodo egg, your home-made cure for AIDS, and Albert Einstein's brain. :)
I'm glad AEP is skipping Mapleridge, AKA "the neighborhood of complainers".
Hopefully AEP will make it over to my neighborhood soon. I'd rather have the box than the overhead lines. If they'll let me, I'm going to paint it to look like dice or a Happy Meal box.
Mapleridge needs to stop stopping everything so midtown can progress.
Most of my neighbors have large trees in the easement between the sidewalks and the street. Just how was PSO going to put the lines underground without either killing them or removing them? And pay attention: They still were going to leave the utility poles and lines across the backyard easements. They carry phone and cable lines.
You sound bitter, and you don't live here so stop calling names and characterizing those who do. Progress does not necessarily = killing trees. Besides, it was our choice, not yours.
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Originally posted by Rose
I'm glad AEP is skipping Mapleridge, AKA "the neighborhood of complainers".
Hopefully AEP will make it over to my neighborhood soon. I'd rather have the box than the overhead lines. If they'll let me, I'm going to paint it to look like dice or a Happy Meal box.
Mapleridge needs to stop stopping everything so midtown can progress.
Don't believe that buried power lines prevents power loss. I live in a neighborhood with buried lines and our power goes out.
Whatever happened to neighborhoods deciding their own fate? If they don't want them buried, I don't see why people are getting so wound up about it.
And Wilbur is right - I grew up in a newer neighborhood with underground utilities, and the power went out there just as much (if not more) often than it does in my older midtown neighborhood.
I live in the Lortondale addition, midtown at 26th & S. Yale. I have seen photos of my neighborhood under construction circa 1954, and there were no trees at all. Today, my addition is full of mature oaks, sycamores, maples, mimosas, etc. These trees were planted by homeowners or grew up from homeowner neglect, long after the original overhead utility/power lines were placed.
It really peeves me that my neighbors think that trees are maintenance-free objects, requiring no periodic pruning. PSO should remove all trees/shrubs growing on their right-of-way, and bill the property owner directly. I had this done at my own expense on my property after the big ice storm in 1987. If homeowners would maintain their own trees and landscaping properly, the issue of burying electric lines would not nearly be the controvery it is today.
Steve,
I'm with you on that. My mom's funny reply to "stop the chop" and "stop the box" --- "don't sue when it falls on you".
Rose