http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070727/ap_on_re_us/helicopters_collide
Two helicopters collide over Phoenix By JACQUES BILLEAUD, Associated Press Writer
PHOENIX - Two news helicopters collided and crashed Friday while covering a police pursuit on live television, killing at least two people. Both helicopters went down in a park in central Phoenix and caught fire.
The collision happened as the two choppers broadcast coverage of police pursuing a truck. Cameras aboard both aircraft were pointed at the ground, so viewers did not witness the accident. The first indication of trouble came when pictures from one of the helicopters broke up, then showed spinning images before the station switched to the studio. Television station KNXV reported that it owned one of the choppers. The other was from KTVK, which reported that the pilot and photographer were killed in the crash.
Within a minute, other stations with helicopters in the area began reporting news of the crash. The two choppers came down on the grass lawn in front of a boarded-up church at the park. Firefighters swarmed to the area as thick black smoke rose from the scene. Mary Lewis said she was stuck in traffic with her four grandsons and was watching the helicopters. She turned to talk to the children, then saw a fireball in the air when she looked up again.
"I looked up and I see this 'boom,' and I see one of the helicopters coming down, and I said 'Oh my God,'" Lewis said. She said she went to the crash site to help, but there was nothing she could do. "It's nothing there," Lewis said. "Just burned-up stuff."
Are television helicoptors becoming a hazard? I have always worried that they might make a delicate crime situation worse. I also don't like the noise and pollution from helicoptors.
Is it news coverage or just high-priced paparazzi?
Thank God no one else was hurt.
Have to say I'm with you 100% on your comments RM.
Its "entertainment" more than news. I mean, a high speed chase IS news, but the coverage is being utilized for its entertainment value more than newsworthiness. Gotta sell the footage to "Cops".
I agree with the paparazzi comments.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0727coptercrash27-ON.html (//%22http://%22)
http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/commphotos/show.php?colid=2148&slide_nbr=1&HTTP_REFERER=http://www.azcentral.com/ (//%22http://%22)
The fortunat thing is that within a half mile of the crash site is a VA Hospital, two fifteen story apartment buildings, a Holiday Inn, two college prep schools and a host of convenience stores and business, as well as two main streets.
I agree that this will change the way that TV stations use helicopters for news reporting. All five helicopters were in the air within five minutes of each other to follow the chase as well as two Phoenix Police helicopters.
Channel 5 in Phoenix was asking the same thing. How will this change news coverage from a helicopter? Not just in their city but across the country. I know that the KOTV chopper crashing was not national but how many other news choppers crash and we don't hear about it?
Also, they were saying on the same news broadcast that the police chase they were covering, those people driving the car could be charged with their deaths?? I did not quite get that. Dont they assume the risks when covering the story?
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0727coptercrash27-ON.html (//%22http://%22)
http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/commphotos/show.php?colid=2148&slide_nbr=1&HTTP_REFERER=http://www.azcentral.com/ (//%22http://%22)
The fortunat thing is that within a half mile of the crash site is a VA Hospital, two fifteen story apartment buildings, a Holiday Inn, two college prep schools and a host of convenience stores and business, as well as two main streets.
I agree that this will change the way that TV stations use helicopters for news reporting. All five helicopters were in the air within five minutes of each other to follow the chase as well as two Phoenix Police helicopters.
All within an already fairly busy "Class B" airspace I might add.
Surprised this didn't happen during the slow speed Bronco chase w/ OJ out in LA.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
Channel 5 in Phoenix was asking the same thing. How will this change news coverage from a helicopter? Not just in their city but across the country. I know that the KOTV chopper crashing was not national but how many other news choppers crash and we don't hear about it?
Also, they were saying on the same news broadcast that the police chase they were covering, those people driving the car could be charged with their deaths?? I did not quite get that. Dont they assume the risks when covering the story?
From KPHO in Phoenix:
http://www.kpho.com/news/13770683/detail.html (//%22http://%22)
I think what the PIO for Phoenix PD is reffering to is that it will be investigated as if the victims were in a car, or pedestrian and struck and killed. I believe that there is a statute in AZ that if you cause the death directly or indirectly while commiting a felony crime, you can be charged with murder. There arew three felony charges in this situation, the first is auto theft, second he rammed a police officer in his crusier, and third the second car jacking.
Thanks dbacksfan.
Personally I think that all police officers should be allowed to just shot the driver of the car (if they can) during a pursuit. They are endangering the lives of people. So in order to protect they can shot them. I bet there would be a lot fewer pursuits
This is a video clip from channel 10 the Fox affiliate here. (15 second commercial first) He arrived right as the two crashed into each other.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3901134&version=7&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1 (//%22http://%22)
this was inevitable. just another reason why high speed pursuits should just be called off.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
Thanks dbacksfan.
Personally I think that all police officers should be allowed to just shot the driver of the car (if they can) during a pursuit. They are endangering the lives of people. So in order to protect they can shot them. I bet there would be a lot fewer pursuits
Repeat 3X what you just said and perhaps you'll realize how ridiculous this idea sounds.
If you have cops shooting on the run (which is very difficult) trying to hit a moving target such as a speeding vehicle, you will have more problems than you bargain for. Not to mention a significant increase in innocent civilians being struck by wayward bullets or bullets that might ricochet off of another object and strike an innocent bystander. Not to mention if cops are inclined to shoot on the run, these suspects may decide to engage or return fire then you have firefights all over big city America. Who loses...........again ?
Re-think your comments...........this is no fault of anyone on the ground.
Shooting at the car seems to work in Georgia... then again, they are VERY back-water out there. I agree, shooting at a moving car is just asking for trouble.
quote:
Are television helicoptors becoming a hazard? I have always worried that they might make a delicate crime situation worse. I also don't like the noise and pollution from helicoptors.
Tulsa has the same problem. When TPD's helicopter goes out on a crime, it is often competing for air space with the local media.
quote:
I believe that there is a statute in AZ that if you cause the death directly or indirectly while commiting a felony crime, you can be charged with murder.
Most states have that same law, including Oklahoma.
For those interested I have some more info on this event.
The way the airspace over Phoenix is governed, and this came from an FAA spokesperson, "When news helicopters are traveling through the airspace over Phoenix, they are controlled by the controllers at Sky Harbor Airport. When they are hovering over a scene, they are to police themselves and inform each other as to where they are and what their intentions are."
recyclemicheal, I respect your question as to wether this is news or high paid paparrazzi.
These people were not paparrazzi in any sense of the word. They were covering a news situation that was going on involving a felony suspect. They were not hovering over the latest scandal in Hollywood.
The news helicopters here in Phoenix work very closely with both police and fire in all of the suburbs in the area, and have been very instrumental in search and rescues, and finding things before they can.
There is one incident that I can relay to this. There was an accident on a valley freeway late at night involving two cars racing that had an accident. The next morning one of the local stations was out doing morning shots and early news in their helicopter when they found a vehicle that was off the side of the freeway in a drainage culvert. The victims, and their vehicle could not be seen from the roadway. The Highway Patrol came out to investigate and followed up on info gathered from that scene and was able to tie the people they had contact with previously as having collided with the one in the culvert, and connecting them with a fatal hit and run.
I felt that I just needed to say this.
Tulsa already averages about a chase a day, but in some cities high-speed pursuits are so common that its just like watching an air show or NASCAR.
Remember reading about the carnival atmospheres at public executions when we had them? You can see where any value as deterrence is lost to the value of the entertainment.
Of course, I can recall the promise made that if Tulsa would just buy a police helicopter, that would be the end of high-speed chases. Anyone else remember that?
Side note...
The reporter in this video is former Tulsan Bruce Dunbar, who worked at KJRH in the eighties. A little grayer these days.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3901134&version=21&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Tulsa already averages about a chase a day, but in some cities high-speed pursuits are so common that its just like watching an air show or NASCAR.
Remember reading about the carnival atmospheres at public executions when we had them? You can see where any value as deterrence is lost to the value of the entertainment.
Of course, I can recall the promise made that if Tulsa would just buy a police helicopter, that would be the end of high-speed chases. Anyone else remember that?
Side note...
The reporter in this video is former Tulsan Bruce Dunbar, who worked at KJRH in the eighties. A little grayer these days.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=3901134&version=21&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
I have on a video tape when Brce Dunbar was the anchor at KJRH (before that KTEW) during the flooding in 1986. If I remember correctly the co-anchor then was Beth Rengal from channel 8. I will have to watch it again to see.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
those people driving the car could be charged with their deaths?? I did not quite get that. Dont they assume the risks when covering the story?
that would be utter bull****. thats like saying if someone was killed rubbernecking at the car wreck you are in, you are responsible for that. the 'law' has gotten way out of hand these days.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
that would be utter bull****. thats like saying if someone was killed rubbernecking at the car wreck you are in, you are responsible for that. the 'law' has gotten way out of hand these days.
I would have to agree, those laws are abused to the point of absurdity. If you're flying a 'copter near hazards or racing through intersections at 60 you are the one making the decisions -- peddling the consequences off on someone else when you make the wrong decisions lacks responsibility.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=528003
I doubt the news agencies that lost colleagues are the ones pushing to charge a truck driver on the ground with a mid-air collision.
What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.
BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy
What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.
BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.
The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police. His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary. If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.
All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught. Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.
I think the main point of most TV stations having helicopters is so they can get to a news scene quicker. Channel 8 could fly to Claremore in like 15 minutes, where it would take almost an hour to make the haul from West Tulsa by vehicle.
I havent really seen the local stations do any of the stupid car chase type stories. I dont know if they would if they could (as dramatic chases don't unfold on Tulsa streets too often) but that doesn't seem to be their reason for having copters. They mainly just do shots of locations, brag about "having a helicopter", and occasionally get on the scene of stuff exploding.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy
What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.
BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.
The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police. His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary. If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.
All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught. Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.
It is human nature for people to run from what they percieve is a threat to them. Doesn't mean you have to chase them. There are other ways for them to be caught- any they will be caught eventually. It is unfortunate that a trooper was killed, however it was in his line of duty and being a police officer is a dangerous profession. How many other lives have been taken by dangerous high speed, and IMO unnecessary chases? Too many.
Conducting high speed pursuits is an interesting argument. I find points with each side that I can agree with. But that is a little different than what I wanted to talk about in this thread.
Helicopters can obviously respond to a news scene faster, especially to distant communities. I have to be realistic and understand that the television news media is very competitive and first is one of the most important trophies.
But following a crime in progress in a parade of helicopters has got to be a bad idea. The driver of the car being pursued, the police cars in pursuit, and most importantly, how the pursuit comes to an end were probably all influenced by such a spectacle.
I am sure there are many more times when the media helps the police officers do their job by using their spotlight for assistance. It just seems to me that the helicopters on this pursuit, in this town, on that day, were in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
quote:
Originally posted by azbadpuppy
What really angers me about this is that the Phoenix police put so many people's lives in jeopardy by engaging in this type of high speed chase. The suspect car-jacked a car and was on parole- thats about all the info I could find. Big deal. What was he on parole for? I will bet it was for something like drug charges. How ridiculous and ego-centric of the Phoenix police to put their desire to capture this guy before the safety of the citizens of Phoenix. I blame the Phoenix police department and Sheriff Joe for this accident, both of which have a very long history of violent, and sometimes criminal style of law enforcement.
BTW, I was standing in front of my business when the helicoptors collided about a block north of us. We heard the impact and then saw a tail go flying off. This high speed chase was conducted through one of the densest corridors in Phoenix, midday, with thousands of people in the 'line of fire' in office towers, on downtown streets, in their cars etc. Absolutely unacceptable.
The suspect is to be blamed for running from the police. His actions are to blame for this. If he would have pulled over and stopped none of this would have happened. High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary. If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
After the suspects in the car got away, they went on a crime spree, killed a State Trooper and held people hostage at a bank until they were finally captured.
All of that could have been avoided if the suspects would have pulled over or since they didn't, the pursuit was allowed to continue and the suspects were caught. Now troopers have to live with the reality that as a result of their own policy, a trooper will never go home to his family.
hindsight is 20/20 (or maybe 20/10 in your case) they made the right decision at the moment....they couldn't predict the future. Spiderman let the crook go that killed Uncle Ben...blah blah blah.
high speed pursuits are crap. they should be stopped.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary. If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
Since you're going to cite that report, heres something you left out:
"In 1995 and 1996, almost 800 people died during police chases across the country, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. More than 30 percent of those killed were bystanders.
Some law enforcement agencies responded by tightening pursuit policies, and chase-related deaths fell to about 300 a year from 1997 to 1999."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=070728_1_A6_hTwom32887
That's hundreds who are still alive because police in those communities realize not all chases are necessary.
We may never know how may lives are "saved" by the bloody pursuits of people with tinted windows or outstanding traffic fines, but the loss of the one state trooper, while tragic, is a gross exception to a policy that is saving hundreds of lives elsewhere.
PWn3d!
quote:
Originally posted by patric
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
High speed chases are dangerous but are necessary. If they were not allowed then criminals would just flee and continue on their crime spree.
The most recent example of this is the Illinois State Trooper that was killed because an earlier pursuit was cancelled. Troopers had to stop a pursuit because of their policy to only pursue suspects if they believe someone is in danger or when a violent crime has occurred.
Since you're going to cite that report, heres something you left out:
"In 1995 and 1996, almost 800 people died during police chases across the country, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. More than 30 percent of those killed were bystanders.
Some law enforcement agencies responded by tightening pursuit policies, and chase-related deaths fell to about 300 a year from 1997 to 1999."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=070728_1_A6_hTwom32887
That's hundreds who are still alive because police in those communities realize not all chases are necessary.
We may never know how may lives are "saved" by the bloody pursuits of people with tinted windows or outstanding traffic fines, but the loss of the one state trooper, while tragic, is a gross exception to a policy that is saving hundreds of lives elsewhere.
Sounds like a plan to me. What was I thinking! It was foolish of me to think that the police should chase criminals. Risking my life, driving at high rates of speed, trying to protect the citizens of Tulsa. Even though the supreme court ruled that they are justified, that doesn't mean anything in Tulsa. We'll just stop it all. I agree. I will start talking to my chain of command about changing your policy. I don't want to chase criminals anymore. In fact, let's expand it. Drunk driver's who are to drunk to notice us, no need to chase them. We'll let them go. We can't stop them. Active shooters in schools, business or in public places, we won't respond to them. The flying bullets could hit a innocent citizen or student. We'll just wait until the shooting is over to respond. More deaths could happen if we responded. We'll just wait until it's all over to respond.
Outstanding. My family will now sleep easier. Thanks!
Apparently MH2010 missed the point.