Big 12: Tulsa falls short in Big 12 bidding
Does this make our plans for the BOK Center an Edsel for the use for the BIG 12 Basketball games?
By BILL HAISTEN World Sports Writer
5/26/2007
Site of women's tournament may have hurt city's chances.
After Tulsa was turned down in its bid to host the 2010 or 2011 Big 12 men's and women's basketball tournaments, conference commissioner Kevin Weiberg indicated in a Kansas City Star report that the league would prefer not to play its tourney games on the home court of a nonmember school.
Mike Dodson, executive director of the Tulsa Sports Commission, said Tulsa's bid proposed the playing of men's games at the downtown BOK Center and the women's games at Oral Roberts University's Mabee Center or the University of Tulsa's Reynolds Center.
"We were told that some member institutions did not favor playing the championship on another institution's home floor," said Dodson, who attended the Big 12 spring meetings in Colorado Springs. "We were not told that it disqualified us, but it had been discussed in some circles.
"In addition to the Mabee Center, we decided to include the Reynolds Center in our bid because it was closer to downtown. We wanted to give them options."
The 2009 Big 12 event was awarded to Oklahoma City.
Kansas City, Mo., already had been given the 2008 tournaments, and on Thursday. Kansas City also was awarded the 2010 and 2011 tournaments. Men's games will be played at the new $276 million Sprint Center and women's games at the Municipal Auditorium.
Oklahoma City was a first-time Big 12 host this year. The Oklahoma City games were played at two downtown venues, with men competing at the Ford Center and women at the Cox Convention Center.
Dodson said Tulsa officials "will not be dissuaded" from continuing to bid for Big 12 basketball events and NCAA Tournament sub-regionals.
"I didn't think our Big 12 bid this year was a long shot, but I knew it was a process," Dodson said. "We're in the ballgame with what's happening in the future. I really believe we're on the short list."
Next year, Dodson said, Tulsa will bid to host an NCAA sub-regional in 2011 or 2012. Dodson expressed confidence that Tulsa can secure a sub-regional. Tulsa is comparable to several cities that will host subregional games in 2008 (Omaha, Neb.; Little Rock, Birmingham, Ala.) and 2009 (Boise, Idaho, and Dayton, Ohio).
Big 12 change: Since the inception of the Big 12 basketball tournaments, the women have played their championship game on Saturday night and the men on Sunday afternoon. Beginning in 2009, there will be a switch -- with the men playing on Saturday and the women on Sunday. The men's tournament will become a Wednesday-through-Sunday format. The women will open play on Thursday.
Big 12 men's coaches lobbied for the change. The NCAA Tournament men's field is finalized on the same Sunday that the Big 12 men have played their championship game. With the league's move to a Saturday championship, the NCAA men's selection committee has more time to consider Big 12 teams.
Also, Kansas coach Bill Self told the Kansas City Star, "It removes the possibility of a team in the championship game returning late Sunday night and going to an NCAA site early Tuesday, which could be a competitive disadvantage."
Tulsa World (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=070526_2_B1_ENWor41376%22)
Quote:
We were told that some member institutions did not favor playing the championship on another institution's home floor," said Dodson, who attended the Big 12 spring meetings in Colorado Springs. "We were not told that it disqualified us, but it had been discussed in some circles.
The Tulsa World is a joke. Kansas City got two years, and the women's tournament in KC is going to be played Municipal Auditorium, which does happen to be the home court for UMKC, which even happens to be in the same conference as ORU.
The "on campus" part would make sense. And I'm sure the Pavillion is too small, I think it only seats 6000.
I'm still interested to know how OKC managed to leave parts of the old Myriad intact as a sporting venue, while converting the rest to convention space and then building the Ford Center on top of it all! It sounds like outside of the Big XII Women's tournament, the Cox Convention Center isn't even used much...did OKC leave it behind as an arena solely for this tournament every 3rd year? Dallas and K.C. though are doing the same thing by leaving Reunion Arena and Municpical Auditorium around to host events. At least Municipal has a home tenant though. Did Tulsa miss the boat on this by deciding to take out ALL of the seats at the existing Maxwell Convention Center? It seems like other cities really look at the big picture when planning their facilities...I hope we didn't screw this up.
...even if someone did drop the ball, I hope there's a smarter person in the room for a recovery.
I fought the need, fundng method, design, and location of the thing, but it's going up and there better be someone who knows how to grease palms, twist arms, call in favors, or whatever the dynamics of sports productions are to book the place.
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
...even if someone did drop the ball, I hope there's a smarter person in the room for a recovery.
I fought the need, fundng method, design, and location of the thing, but it's going up and there better be someone who knows how to grease palms, twist arms, call in favors, or whatever the dynamics of sports productions are to book the place.
Sports..? I thought it was going to be Tulsa's answer to the "Crystal Cathedral"...?
And on the off days...
Ricky Martin.
It has been a very good "promo item" for Tulsa..
Hope they put some kinda wind in the sails so it can at least remain that.
quote:
Originally posted by bacjz00
I'm still interested to know how OKC managed to leave parts of the old Myriad intact as a sporting venue, while converting the rest to convention space and then building the Ford Center on top of it all! It sounds like outside of the Big XII Women's tournament, the Cox Convention Center isn't even used much...did OKC leave it behind as an arena solely for this tournament every 3rd year? Dallas and K.C. though are doing the same thing by leaving Reunion Arena and Municpical Auditorium around to host events. At least Municipal has a home tenant though. Did Tulsa miss the boat on this by deciding to take out ALL of the seats at the existing Maxwell Convention Center? It seems like other cities really look at the big picture when planning their facilities...I hope we didn't screw this up.
We didn't. The old Convention Center would be way too small and infinitely too crappy to host the Big XII women's event. It wasn't even good enough for the NAIA tournament -- 5 years ago! We'll be far better off with the ballroom configuration in that space.
sporty, I'm sorry, but I take issue with the title of this thread. We bid for the very first time for an event against 5 others cities -- all of which are bigger than us, 3 of which have hosted it before. We don't win the bid, so the arena's an Edsel? REALLY??
The very first time in a person's life they ask someone out on a date, if they get a no are they a hopeless loser?
Nobody's come out and said it, but lack of a thriving downtown has to hurt the bids. Lots of fans are going to want to stay downtown, walk to the games then walk to dining/nightlife afterward. We don't have enough hotels downtown and there's not much as far as dining options when the games end at 11 p.m.
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
...even if someone did drop the ball, I hope there's a smarter person in the room for a recovery.
I fought the need, fundng method, design, and location of the thing, but it's going up and there better be someone who knows how to grease palms, twist arms, call in favors, or whatever the dynamics of sports productions are to book the place.
Carbon copy of my own opinions.
"...and there's not much as far as dining options when the games end at 11 p.m." - The Ted
Dude, Caz's sells Snickers and sometimes Beef Jerky till 2:00 AM, what you talking about?
"...ask someone out on a date, if they get a no are they a hopeless loser?" - AJ
Made me one.
That's why I cruise the Brookside parking lots Friday nights on my bike - setting off every ones car alarm with the rumble.
"Sports..?" - rico
Yeah, Sports...you know, a big honking basketball court? Move some curtains around and Pesto! it's still a big honking Basketball court!
I'll refrain from saying "I told you so" until after Tulsa fails to get bids on the NCAA tourney.
I was about to point out the same issue with the worlds statement on the use of the second arena in KC. But I guess what I am trying to point out is, should we consider not taking out the arena in the convention center. It seems like the BIG 12 likes having the location so close. I have no idea what the Tulsa Sports Commission was thinking with the use of the Mabee Center if only for its size. Its way to far away from downtown and no easy direct route to get there. Reynolds center is a good location, and so is the Pavilion. How many people do they really expect to get in to watch women's basketball? I am curious if anyone can find out the number of tickets that they took each day when they played in OKC last year. I would think that the women would like to have more people close together in a smaller facility to make it sound louder and bigger.
The women's championship game had 12,413 in attendance. The convention center arena is nowhere near good enough for the women's tournament.
This is the reason I was almost certain we wouldn't get a bid. The arena not being completed and there not being any of the infrastructure (restaurants, bars, hotels, etc. . .) needed in place around the arena were obvious things that would hurt our chances. Although those will hopefully be fixed in time. The issue of needing a second arena for the women's tournament will never be resolved.
As far as the NCAA's go. I really do feel like we have a shot at those. At least once there are more hotels, restaurants, etc. . . actually downtown.
Big 12 Women's Basketball Attendance
Session 1 (Tuesday, 1st round)
1,124 1997
1,560 1998
2,946 1999
3,770 2000
6,077 2001
4,652 2002
3,061 2003
5,400 2004
3,251 2005
1,820 2006
Session 2 (Tuesday, 1st round)
1,768 1997
2,162 1998
3,264 1999
4,023 2000
2,454 2001
7,126 2002
3,045 2003
2,624 2004
4,345 2005
1,423 2006
Session 3 (Wednesday, 2nd round)
2,421 1997
1,700 1998
5,264 1999
3,550 2000
3,221 2001
4,781 2002
6,405 2003
8,771 2004
5,119 2005
4,358 2006
Session 4 (Wednesday, 2nd round)
2,670 1997
4,052 1998
5,137 1999
3,614 2000
6,408 2001
4,715 2002
5,735 2003
3,326 2004
4,038 2005
3,065 2006
Session 5 (Thursday, semifinals)
3,565 1997
3,500 1998
6,230 1999
5,865 2000
5,518 2001
5,482 2002
6,656 2003
6,165 2004
4,068 2005
4,212 2006
Session 6 (Saturday, championship)
7,152 1997
5,800 1998
8,127 1999
9,130 2000 (sellout)
8,153 2001
6,197 2002
10,717 2003
8,226 2004
6,108 2005
10,673 2006
12,413 2007
Day One Total (Tuesday only)
2,892 1997
3,722 1998
6,210 1999
7,793 2000
8,531 2001
11,778 2002
6,106 2003
8,024 2004
10,847 2005
3,243 2006
Day Two Total (Wednesday Only)
5,091 1997
5,752 1998
10,401 1999
7,164 2000
9,629 2001
9,496 2002
12,140 2003
12,097 2004
9,157 2005
7,423 2006
Three-Day Total (Tues.-
11,548 1997
12,974 1998
22,841 1999
20,822 2000
23,678 2001
26,756 2002
24,902 2003
26,286 2004
24,072 2005
14,878 2006
Tournament Total
18,700 1997
18,774 1998
30,968 1999
29,952 2000
31,831 2001
32,953 2002
35,619 2003
34,512 2004
26,929 2005
25,551 2006
Tournament Averages
3,116 1997
2,129 1998
5,161 1999
4,994 2000
5,350 2001
5,492 2002
5,937 2003
5,809 2004
6,108 2005
4,259 2006
Championship Sites
Venue City Years Capacity
Municipal Auditorium Kansas City, Mo. 1997-2002, 05, 08 9,130
Reunion Arena Dallas, Texas 2003-04, 06 19,000
Cox Convention Center Oklahoma City, Okla. 2007 13,300
If they are going to be using Municipal Auditorium again for the women's games, Tulsa's Convention Center Arena holds 8,900 which holds more than any one non championship game or even the Expo Square Pavilion would work. They could then hold the championship game in the BOK center.
Hate to be the one to throw kerosene on a fire.......But here goes..
Arena delays other city projects
Last Update: May 31, 2007 4:36 PM
(DOWNTOWN TULSA, Okla.) May 31 - Construction costs for Tulsa's downtown arena have skyrocketed, likely pushing back other projects for years.
It's $45 million over budget. But the Vision 2025 Authority says it is still Tulsa's top priority and the money has to come from somewhere.
City leaders say they're determined to get this arena completed. And construction is ongoing despite the budget shortfall.
But some projects, like the one at the Oxley Nature Center is not so fortunate. Their $800,000 funding has been delayed for at least three years.
It's a labor of love for volunteer Dick Sherry. It began 33 years ago, the same day his first daughter was born. “That’s the first day I went to meet the park board.�
And after all these years, he says the building needed a redo. Exhibits, outside ramps, bathrooms, it needs a complete overhaul. “When we started hearing comments that nothing has changed, we realized it was high time to go ahead and really makes some improvements.�
Vision 2025 was supposed to provide $800,000 for the work. But Sherry recently found out that money is now on hold so it could help fund the over-budgeted downtown arena. “It’s very disappointing because we’ve had a very good relationship with the city for many years.�
But Mayor Kathy Taylor says she and the city have no control over how money is prioritized for Vision 2025. The decision to reallocate money came from the county's Vision 2025 Authority. “It was a unanimous agreement, that this is a high priority for the event center. Construction costs have increased across the country�, said Mayor Taylor.
And Taylor says Tulsa is just one city, among many, vying for Vision 2025 funds. “This is only less than two-tenths of one percent of all the 2025 funding. So we’re hoping someone could shake it out of a tree somewhere.�
Mayor Taylor says now that all the funds have been shifted around, the arena is still on track to be completed in September of 2008.
In addition to Oxley Nature Center, the city says some of the Route 66 projects and the Centennial Walk project are also on hold.
I don't really think the Tulsa Convention Center arena was a particularly viable option to keep open... OKC's old Myriad arena has had a listed capacity of over 13,000 for hockey... and it just sits there vacant most of the time... Tulsa's convention center is listed as 7,111 capacity that I saw for Ice Oilers' hockey... may be a little bigger for basketball...
But the 8,900 listed capacity included floor seating for concerts, etc...
OKC was the first (and will likely be the only) Big 12 basketball tourney site to have its two venues down the street from each other.
And if you compare the looks of the Ford Center to Tulsa's new arena, well... it's actually the Ford Center that looks more like an Edsel... hope it doesn't cost OKC their shot at a permanent NBA team as tenant. Tulsa's new arena will not cost nearly as much as Kansas City's Sprint Center; last I checked costs projected to be $276 million...
It's easy to be a critic... my criticism would be based around the fact that just about every city in the country is doing the arena thing... let's call it an oversaturation of the market on a national scale... but I'd like to wait until that darned iconic thing in Tulsa's open before becoming a critic... otherwise, it just makes me a NAYSAYER! [:O]
Heck, even Wichita's getting in on the downtown arena business... costs have risen from $184 million listed in 2004 to $201 million the last time I checked... will seat 15,000 for basketball, 17,000 for concerts... and will look something like this...
(http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/images/scarena.jpg)
Iconic enough for ya?
$45,000,000.00 over budget? I thought the whole damn thing was supposed to be done BY 2008 and cost $180,000,000. That makes it closer to $245,000,000.00 over budget - considering the $15mil in corporate support are not counted. Even though we were led to believe that the cost would be defrayed by the corporate donations.
Latest progress report:
http://www.vision2025.info/includes/pages/tulsavisionbuildersmonthlyreport/uploads/023/file.pdf
Now it "is on schedule to be completed by the revised deadline of Sept. 1, 2008." NO kidding? I would hope it is on schedule if you just revise the deadline. Everything is on schedule when you revise deadlines.
More importantly, when did the cost rise additionally? I knew it went up with the first round of bids, but didnt the mayor make a big frikken deal when other bids came in below estimates? Did we just raise the estimates and then brag when the bids were below them... that's dumb. We are facing a nearly 1/3 increase in the cost. Ouch.
I hope this works out. I was excited by the plan because I felt Tulsa needed a spark to get its sh!t together... now I'm not so sure a quarter of a billion dollar arena is what we needed.
I know we are griping about the arena costing more,,,, Omg who would have thought?! But I still wish we had ponied up and done the original design. That was the iconic design, the one we have now is only "so so".
Isn't this the original amount the arena was over budget that has been known and resolved for months?
In other words, this is not a new article stating this but rather somebody re-posting this information.....isn't it?
What was changed with the design? It looks amazingly similar to the original to me... but that might not mean a whole lot I guess.
Seriously, I try to stay informed. Its amazing how often I find myself in the dark.
Another $45 mil over. Now there's a shocker.
This was my favorite design (apologies to whomever posted this on here first, can't remember who it was to give credit):
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/newbokcenter.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
But the 8,900 listed capacity included floor seating for concerts, etc...
Do you think concert seating for the Big 12 women's tourney was a turn-off to the committee? [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Another $45 mil over. Now there's a shocker.
Again....does anyone have a link saying it is ANOTHER $45 million over? I'd think it would be big news around here.
Well, at least they stuck with the original feeling. If someone wants to be my "BFF" they could make an itemized list of what was promised and what was delivered visa vi this arena.
Ie: $180mi. - $245mil
As promised it had xxxx - as delivered it will have xxx
Open datex - open date x
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Another $45 mil over. Now there's a shocker.
Again....does anyone have a link saying it is ANOTHER $45 million over? I'd think it would be big news around here.
It's not another $45 million over. You are correct, the article references the same $45 million over that we knew about last summer. The total cost is still $180 million.
Thank you. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Another $45 mil over. Now there's a shocker.
Again....does anyone have a link saying it is ANOTHER $45 million over? I'd think it would be big news around here.
It's not another $45 million over. You are correct, the article references the same $45 million over that we knew about last summer. The total cost is still $180 million.
Hey Joe Thank You... That will teach me to believe anything "Rupert" is connected with is News..[B)]
Must've been a slow news week. Now they are re-using old news to fill in the gaps and spark outrage. [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by ricecake
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
What was changed with the design? It looks amazingly similar to the original to me... but that might not mean a whole lot I guess.
The exterior design was stripped down and the arena bowl was 'sunk' further into the ground, thereby reducing the exterior height.
Original design
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/9d/Tulsa_Arena.jpg)
What is being built
(http://www.cityoftulsa.org/News/images/BOKCenterSEview.jpg)
The exterior was not stripped down, and they did not drop the bowl. The "original design" you are showing was a schematic model. The design was developed. The costs actually have gone up and the design has been embellished on the exterior and they have added more than they have removed since that schematic model was done. Last year when bids came in over budget, they actually considered reducing the iconic glass wall height, reducing the strength of the glass, the tint, and other exterior changes, but ultimately none were ever made. They managed to save a few $ million by changing some of the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC components inside the building that no patron would ever know about.
And, yes, this news is over a year old. April 21, 2006 to be exact. It is only "new news" now because the money for Oxley was supposed to be coming available right about now with the original Vision 2025 plan. It has only been delayed, not shelved. The revised Arena budget is now $183. That is still a bargain when you look at Witchita's, Kansas City's, etc. The Ford Center will be a dump compared to Tulsa's.
I'm not going to lie: I think I actually like the schematic model better than the conceptual model. But to each his own.[8D]
this thing is going to look so out of place downtown...just like the borg cube.
Naaa, I like variety in a downtown. I actually think we are missing a really striking, contemporary, architectural, example for this decade. I mean heck look at what London and many other cities are doing. It just shows that our economy has been stagnant. Thank goodness for the Borg Cube and the Arena or we wouldn't have anything to show for this decade. Its like many have noticed. The old world is becoming new, and the new world is becoming old.
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8514/londonskylineko6.png)London
(http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3650/lvalencia4da5.jpg)Spain
And I like the borg cube, particularly at night, the tranlucent see-though is very cool, it and the arena will be nice bookends to the Williams Center's 70's/80's modern clean look.