The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Had the day off and couldn't find a sharp stick to poke in my eye, so.........

the first MLS game I ever saw was at Mile High Stadium in Denver in 1996... the atmosphere and enthusiasm didn't hold a candle to what I'd experienced a decade earlier in Tulsa at Skelly Stadium for the Roughnecks... so I simply thought it'd only be a matter of time before Tulsa got its pro soccer team back...

Now Denver has a new stadium at Dick's Sporting Goods Park....

http://www.coloradorapids.com/
(http://www.coloradorapids.com/images/home/PhotoGallery_4_07.jpg)

And Tulsa... well... I still think Tulsa would be a better longterm market for Major League Soccer than Denver, KC or Dallas...

If you want perfect examples of "behind the curve Tulsa," look no further than the numerous botched opportunities Tulsa's has had over the last decade or so to add Major League Soccer:

1993-1996. Tulsa would have had a team in 1996 if TU had opted for natural grass.  Spartan Stadium in San Jose had natural grass... Skelly had artificial turf.

San Jose got a team, Tulsa didn't.  TU offered to go with natural grass if the soccer people in Tulsa would pay for it.  But the soccer people lacked the $$$...

1994 Cost:  $1mil - $1.5 mil and Tulsa could have had a league owned team in MLS.

1997.  The Tulsa Project includes a 5,000 seat soccer/track & field facility that could be expanded to MLS specs.  Sportswriter John Klein of the Tulsa World wrote at the time: "If you like sports, and we assume you do since you're reading this, the Tulsa Project is a no-brainer... Sometime in the future, Major League Soccer will be back in Tulsa... How do we know this?  It's our business to know these things. It's our business to talk with the people who make decisions in sports... Ask them if they've talked to folks with MLS... They aren't interested right now for obvious
reasons -- there's no place to play."

The Tulsa Project goes down to defeat... and in
1998, MLS adds teams in Chicago and Miami.

Summer 2002.  MLS officials proactively approach Tulsa city officials about the prospects of placing a team here.  The league now wants local ownership and a stadium.  The proposed stadium is not included in the
Vision 2025 projects.

2003 Cost of a team (expansion fee):  $10mil

Fall 2005.  Global Development Partners, who'd just purchased MLS's DC United, come to Tulsa to propose/develop a project including a soccer stadium/mixed use residential for downtown Tulsa.  The soccer stadium part of the project falls apart after Global backs out of the DC soccer deal in Jan 2006 and no local owners are found with enough $$$ to make up the difference.

2005 Cost of a team (expansion fee):  $15mil

Spring 2007.  TU announces new press box/luxury suites, new seating and reduction of capacity at Skelly Stadium to around 30,000 to 31,000.

2007 Cost of a team (expansion fee now that David Beckham's in the league):  $30mil

Do it your-self.....If you want it so bad....

Can you tell us what cities have built soccer stadiums recently and what they cost to build and operate?

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Cities with an MLS team and where they currently play-

New York - Giants Stadium (NFL)
Los Angles (2 teams)- Rose Bowl (college football)
Chicago -  Soldier Field
Toronto -
Washington DC - RFK Stadium (NFL)
Boston (Foxborough) - Gillette Stadium (NFL)
Columbus - "Crew Stadium" $25mil
Kansas City - Arrowhead (NFL)
Denver - Mile High (MLB)
Dallas - Cotton Bowl
Houston -
Salt Lake City
http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/teams/index.jsp

The smallest town on that list (Salt lake) has a metro area about 700,000 greater than the Tulsa area.  Not to mention Salt Lake is a truly unique town with wads of money and international appeal thanks to their Olympic bid. Most of those cities have populations larger than our state, let alone our town.

Cities are starting to build for MLS soccer:
http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/sites-mls.html

Columbus has their own designated MLS stadium.  It cost them $25million to build and was the first for MLS.  It started the war.

The Carson (LA) Chivas plays in a $150,000,000.00 facility owned by U of Cal (soccer specific, kinda?).  

Dallas built a soccer complex for $65mil.  

NJ is now building one for $200 million.  

So Denver is building one for $130mil.

Salt Lake is schedule to break ground on a $155,000,000 stadium.

Toronto (newest expansion) is building one at a cost of $95mil.

DC is crying for a new stadium now and threatening to leave town if they dont get one.

Just based on that, I dont think this is a race Tulsa can afford to jump into.  The $10mil you touted for a stadium would be laughed at by MLS.  The average new stadium now is over $100,000,000.   They are not content to play second fiddle anymore and are leveraging every penny they can from cities.

We are too small, too poor, and do not have a world class stadium to give away.

Sorry.  MLS would be neat in Tulsa.

What is the fan base in Tulsa these days?  I no longer follow soccer as neither of my daughters has ever played and I never stop and watch when it's on TV because:

1) I don't have a clue who any of the players are

2) Don't have an allegiance to a team,

3) I'm not one with long patience for stick and ball sports except for championship games and tend to lean more toward college sports for non-championship contests if I decide to have a camp-out in front of the TV.

I felt more connected to it in the '70's as I was playing Green Country soccer and there was a lot of interest in it.  It was sweeping the nation at the time.  Pele, the biggest soccer celeb most of us had heard of, was playing for the Cosmos, Roughnecks were in the same league.  We had a local team with very visible local players who you could see around town.  They were very real characters and they got a lot of press.

Is there still enough interest to bring in 10,000 to 20,000 fans?  I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I just have a hard time believing that we would wind up with the sort of crowds that the Roughnecks got.  I wish I could say I'd be there every game to support it, but I'm not one likely to buy a ticket and go.

I'll have to research more details so you can compare... lotsa data...

I'll have to get back to you on operating costs, and once I get a response that doesn't involve lotsa wishful thinking low-ball estimates those costs, I'll post it, RM...

New York will have their stadium as part of a huge mixed-use development to open in Harrison, NJ... groundbreaking was last fall...

http://www.redbullpark.com/stadium_vision.html

quote:

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Red Bull Park is a major component of the three-million-square-foot, multi-billion dollar Harrison MetroCentre, which will feature mid-rise and hi-rise office space, 3,500 residential units, 300,000 square feet of retail space, and over 10,000 decked parking spaces when completely built-out.

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FC Dallas's new facilty is a couple of years old and is in Frisco (same city as the Drillers' Texas League rivals).  Frisco ISD plays high school football there... it'd be a good thing to check to see how much the facility has been used as a concert venue...

The interesting story here is ongoing... Salt Lake City plays in a larger version of Skelly Stadium but the team will be moved if the stadium deal in Sandy, UT falls apart... San Jose no longer has a team but Oakland A's owner Lew Wolf had a deal to build a brand new stadium with San Jose State Univ that fell apart just a few weeks ago...

St. Louis and Cleveland are still spinning their wheels trying to get stadiums built using TIF's... Milwaukee's efforts look to be dead...

Kansas City is trying to secure a TIF deal with anybody they can find for a stadium for 2009...

Which brings us to Tulsa.  Tulsa hasn't been mentioned at all by MLS in more than a year.

MLS's stated goal is to expand from 13 to 16 teams by 2010.

But unless two or three of these stadium deals come together in the next couple of years, Tulsa could be in a position to propose a renovated Skelly Stadium as host to either an expansion team or a relocated team (Kansas City most likely)... an expansion team in Tulsa w/o a new stadium seems like a longshot, but a sweetheart deal on lease/concessions/parking with TU at the new Skelly could tip the balance in Tulsa's favor... those skyboxes/luxury suites are a big part of why MLS wants its own facilities...

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Cities with an MLS team and where they currently play-

New York - Giants Stadium (NFL)... groundbreaking for Red Bull Park was last fall but construction just started for the 25,000 stadium to be completed for 2008... cost to build stadium: $100mil "state-of-the-art" stadium which will feature a "European style roof/canopy"...additional $39.4 million in revenue bonds to finance the land acquisition...
http://www.redbullpark.com/news_081106.pdf

Los Angles (2 teams)- Home Depot Center (27k capacity soccer specific stadium opened June 2003)... cost: $150mil for the entire complex, but in the SanJose feasability study, cost for actual soccer stadium was around $60mil... from wikopedia, "The stadium has also been used for concerts, including two-night runs by Dave Matthews Band in 2003, 2004 and 2005."

Chicago -  Toyota Park (21,200 seat soccer specific stadium opened June 2006).. cost: over $100 million.

Toronto - BMO Field (20,148 seat soccer specific stadium opened April 28,2007)... I see different cost estimates... last at around $70  million...

Washington DC - RFK Stadium (the same Global people who were attracted to Tulsa by the potential of placing an MLS team here proposed a soccer stadium for DC)... problems with the proposed site have a lot to do with federal/local land rights...

Boston (Foxborough) - Gillette Stadium (NFL)-- Bob Kraft owns the stadium, the Patriots and the MLS team, so there is little financial incentive for him to look at a smaller facility for soccer... though rumblings persist...

Columbus - "Crew Stadium" $25mil (22,600 seat soccer specific stadium opened May 1999)

Kansas City - Arrowhead (NFL)... this is the team that should have been playing in Tulsa in 2006... new local owners sound very committed, but have met several stumbing blocks in getting a stadium built w/youth field in Johnson County... newest proposal is a mixed-use redevelopment concept that would include the Bannister Mall and Benjamin Plaza shopping centers, and the adjoining Benjamin Ranch property....

Denver - Dick's Sporting Goods Park (18,086 seats opened April 2007) cost:  estimated $131 million for entire project.

Dallas - Pizza Hut Park (21,193 seats opened August 2005)... constrution costs approx. $80mil

Houston - Univ of Houston's Robertson Stadium (had a similar refurb as to what is proposed for Skelly and curr has a capacity of 32,000 seats)... negotiations ongoing for a stadium shared with local school district, etc...

Salt Lake City - Univ of Utah's Rice-Eccles Stadium (45,000 seats)... Dave Checketts was granted the team only under the condition that SLC would be able to build an appropriate facilty...
http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/teams/index.jsp

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Fixed your post.... at least, part of it. [;)]

This link is probably as good as any to describe costs... good find...
http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/sites-mls.html


The problem with these cost estimates is some will include youth field complexes or mixed use costs.... tried to find good info but it gets confusing in a hurry...(wikipedia shows Tulsa's BOk arena as costing $183mil when I thought that was the cost of both the arena and the updates to the old convention center)...

Seems the costs from LaFortune varied and had ranged from $40mil to $60 mil for the soccer stadium portion of what was proposed back in 2003...

My point was that if Skelly had a grass field back in 1996, that would have satisfied MLS and the team wouldn't have even needed to pay an expansion fee or have local owners.

The 5,000 seat soccer/track stadium from the 1997 Tulsa Project would only have been a start... once again, had TU officials announced an $18mil project for Skelly that would reduce seating capacity and add a new press box with corporate/luxury suites, Tulsa could have had a team....... not sure if it could have been a league owned team or if MLS would have insisted on local ownership.

When I quote $10mil, $15mil and now $30mil... those are expansion fees... the longer you wait, the higher it gets... but I do think $30 mil is overpriced...

Hard to find official info, but an Arena Football team would require a $20mil upfront expansion fee and $60mil in assets? (not sure where I read this, though)...

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder



The smallest town on that list (Salt lake) has a metro area about 700,000 greater than the Tulsa area.  Not to mention Salt Lake is a truly unique town with wads of money and international appeal thanks to their Olympic bid. Most of those cities have populations larger than our state, let alone our town.

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I understand your point Cannon_Fodder, but I want to point out that your stats are off.  Salt Lake City's MSA population is 1,067,722.  Tulsa's is 897,752.  That's only a difference of 150,000.  OKC's MSA has a population of 1,172,339, which is over 100,000 larger than Salt Lake.  Your other point about the economic factors was accurate.  Salt Lake is really a pretty small market, but its business climate is superior to Tulsa or OKC's.  The thing I don't understand is why ESPN analysts don't think NBA will ultimately work in OKC, even after the Ford Center was consistently sold out.

To see all MSA populations:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/CBSA-est2006-annual.html

USRufnex, Tulsa will have a better chance of landing a MLS team when the entire metro area has a better concentric city focus, and downtown and midtown are viewed as high-equity brand names for real estate.  Tulsa MSA residents have to believe in Tulsa before most outsiders will.  Please see

this topic. (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6536%22)

I was going off of the stated metro areas, which is based on how many people are in a stated radius from the town.  You data is probably better for comparison purposes.

But, its also worth noting SLC is the states city.  There are not competing cities.  Also, the tourism numbers in SLC are probably more favorable than Tulsa.  Just a better market overall, I'm sad to say.

Frankly Mr. Fodder, your opinions on this subject are not the final word on whether Major League Soccer is viable in the small market of Tulsa....... it's the opinions of MLS officials that matter.....

And they've stated publicly and in no uncertain terms that they feel Tulsa is a good market for MLS... please stop telling us YOU don't think Tulsa is good enough.

MLS officials think Tulsa IS good enough, and that SHOULD be good enough for you (I emphasize the word, "should")...

quotes from Don Garber, commission of Major League Soccer:

"There will be two expansion franchises announced by the end of the year to play in the 2005 season, and Tulsa and Oklahoma City will not both receive one. Garber said it's possible, although unlikely, that both could be shut out."

"Oklahoma has a massive youth soccer market and Tulsa has a tremendous history with the Roughnecks," Garber said. "Joe-Max Moore has played for the U.S. national team and in our league and Tulsa is a market that really seems to get passionate about local offerings. We had 14,000 fans and 3,500 season ticket commitments at the exhibition game on April 5 and that speaks well.

"We have been successful when we're one of the big games in town and Tulsa seems to be a community that would embrace a team and make it special. Oklahoma City is the same way. I believe the timing at some point will be there. The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us."

quote from Kansas City Wizards general manager Curt Johnson:

"The marketplace is a good one. It's ready, assuming an appropriate facility and owner can be found," Johnson said. "We had a tremendous crowd when we played there a couple of years ago. Tulsa certainly can be a good marketplace for professional soccer, I believe in that."

And TU soccer coach Tom McIntosh could certainly be counted upon to see if an upgraded Skelly Stadium could be useful for to attract a future MLS team:

"We'd have a team right now if we had the stadium and an ownership group," McIntosh said. "The MLS would love to have a team in Tulsa, but we don't have the proper facility here in town, and an ownership group really hasn't stepped forward."

If Clay Bennett of OKC can buy the Seattle Supersonics of the NBA for $350mil... I think there are a small number of Tulsans who could pay an MLS expansion fee at LESS THAN ONE TENTH that price-- or $30mil...

USRufnex, I would love to see MLS come to Tulsa.  It seems that you are very dedicated to your cause, and stubborn as hell(which is usually the only way to get people to believe in a new idea).  I have a couple of questions: What are you currently doing to bring MLS to Tulsa?  And, is there currently an organization lobbying for a MLS team?

I would suggest, if you haven't already thought of it, organizing a MLS task force.  More importantly, you should investigate what things, other than just soccer-related, would make acquiring a MLS team more likely.  In my opinion, a completely re-vamped overall marketing approach is needed for Tulsa's unique culture to fully reach its potential.  There are thousands of people in Tulsa's MSA and nearby that are looking for the "cosmopolitan," or whatever you want to call it, culture that a lot of Tulsa truly has.  That community-centered culture is the same culture that would support MLS and believe the MLS could work in Tulsa.

I hope your right Rufnex.  I would love to see MLS come to Tulsa and would go to a game or two a year.  I'd certainly flip it on TV on the weekends.

Lets hope private interests including MLS think it is a worthwhile venture and step to the plate.  They'll certainly have my support (though only minimally on the financial side).  I'd just hate to see hordes of public money thrown at them.

quote:

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Originally posted by USRufnex

Frankly Mr. Fodder, your opinions on this subject are not the final word on whether Major League Soccer is viable in the small market of Tulsa....... it's the opinions of MLS officials that matter.....

And they've stated publicly and in no uncertain terms that they feel Tulsa is a good market for MLS... please stop telling us YOU don't think Tulsa is good enough.

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Why should he stop telling us his opinion? Do you feel as though your opinions are the only ones that are valid? Why do you insist on censoring those who might disagree with you? Based on those criteria, why should your opinions be heard, unless you happen to be "the final say" on the matter. Your "logic" would render all opinions invalid. It is a shame you have so little respect for the opinions of the very people you have relentlessly tried to sway to your opinion.

Fodder, please keep expressing your opinions. Don't be discouraged by those who have forgotten that's the reason why this forum exists.

Per usual, AJ... you've missed the point.

I can say MLS would be viable in Tulsa.
Cannon Fodder can say MLS would NOT be viable in Tulsa.

If Cannon Fodder would like to argue why the commissioner of Major League Soccer was wrong in proclaiming, "The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us," he is certainly welcome to do so...

But if he gives incomplete or inaccurate  information, I will call him on it.  And I expect that if I offer incomplete or inaccurate information, he can/will call me on it.

The reason why I started posting on these forums was because I needed to confront those people who made grossly inaccurate assertions about Global Development Partners and their plans for the East Village back in Nov 2005...

You were most definitely one of the worst of them.  

Hugs-n-kisses,
(http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/02/47/f1/89/38269321.JPG)

--Ruf

quote:

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Originally posted by Conan71

What is the fan base in Tulsa these days?  I no longer follow soccer as neither of my daughters has ever played and I never stop and watch when it's on TV because:

1) I don't have a clue who any of the players are

2) Don't have an allegiance to a team,

3) I'm not one with long patience for stick and ball sports except for championship games and tend to lean more toward college sports for non-championship contests if I decide to have a camp-out in front of the TV.

I felt more connected to it in the '70's as I was playing Green Country soccer and there was a lot of interest in it.  It was sweeping the nation at the time.  Pele, the biggest soccer celeb most of us had heard of, was playing for the Cosmos, Roughnecks were in the same league.  We had a local team with very visible local players who you could see around town.  They were very real characters and they got a lot of press.

Is there still enough interest to bring in 10,000 to 20,000 fans?  I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I just have a hard time believing that we would wind up with the sort of crowds that the Roughnecks got.  I wish I could say I'd be there every game to support it, but I'm not one likely to buy a ticket and go.

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All I can tell you is there was no real soccer fanbase in Tulsa circa 1978..... it had to be built from scratch.  Green Country Soccer Assoc was only a few years old.  Nobody knew who the players were before we got the team.  The first game against Detroit on a Saturday afternoon managed to only draw 5,872 fans at Skelly.  And the Daily Oklahoman could have cared less about the post-Pele NASL in Tulsa (Pele retired from the Cosmos after the 1977 season before Tulsa got a team)...

TU didn't have a men's soccer team until a few years after the Roughnecks arrived; 99% of the schools in northeast Oklahoma didn't have high school varsity soccer-- Green Country Soccer Assoc was a recreational league; slowly they started "select" teams/leagues that were more competitive...

I believe Oklahoma City or Tulsa has more  potential to succeed in MLS when compared to Tulsa's chances to succeed in the NASL back in 1978.

Noel Lemon as Tulsa's GM, Chris Lincoln at KTUL (Bob Carpenter was color commentator those first few years), and the folks at KRMG radio championed that team and developed a fanbase where there was none; in close cooperation with GCSA...  

Tulsa actually had an exhibition game at Skelly against Manchester United in 1978... it was advertised heavily... yet only a few thousand people showed up because NOBODY really knew who ManU was at the time... and my videotape of the 30,000-plus who filled Skelly Stadium in 1980 to watch Tulsa versus the New York Cosmos?!?  Well, huge cheers would come from the crowd every time the ball was kicked really high... honestly, we were a buncha soccer novices...

Times have changed.  I went to see Union play Norman North in the high school soccer semi's... hundreds of Union fans drove to Jenks after the game was moved last minute due to wet grass fields at Union... these weren't just parents and friends of the players.  And trust me, these kids can play & know the game really well... game was played at the high school stadium in Jenks, the concessions were open and there was a press box announcer... tickets were $5 each... we had none of that back in the 70's and early 80's...

Last year Tulsa metro teams had a clean sweep in soccer... Jenks boys and girls won 6A, Kelley's boys and girls won 5A, and Cascia's boys and girls won 4A... this year's state finals for 6A are at Skelly on Saturday night...

http://www.nscaa.com/hsRes.php?it=1122
NSCAA/adidas® National Rankings
9. Broken Arrow, 14. Union  

Today's kids weren't alive when the North American Soccer League collapsed in 1984 and Tulsa shut down operations after a handful of exhibition games in 1985... heck, even a 27 year old wouldn't remember much about the original NASL Roughnecks ('78-'85) even if they went to a game or two with their parents...

That's why the 2003 exhibition game was so important.  Tulsa's drew over 14,000... OKC's exhibition in Edmond the week before drew 9,300... the next year OKC tried another game in Edmond and drew around 7500 fans... in fact, the only MLS exhibition games that topped Tulsa's were doubleheaders (which included Mexican teams) held at Houston's Robertson stadium-- so nobody has duplicated what Tulsa's done.

Pele?  Well, David Beckham is joining the LA Galaxy this summer... Pele may have been the best player in the history of soccer, but Beckham has something Pele didn't have....... Posh Spice, who'll be shopping Rodeo Drive this summer trailed by the paparazzi...  [:P]

Hmmm... Pele?  New York Cosmos?...... Beckham?  Los Angeles Galaxy?.... "it's all just a little bit of history repeating..."

(http://z.about.com/d/scifi/1/7/u/L/2/starwars69.jpg)

"I've placed information vital to the survival of the future prospects of Major League Soccer in Tulsa and bring back the Roughnecks into the memory systems of this R2 unit.  Chris Lincoln at KTUL will know how to retrieve it.  You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan.  This is our most desperate hour.  Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope."

Watched Salt lake play Denver last night at ESPN2 HD.  Attendance in Denver is stated was 13,458 (in their 19K seat new arena).  Each team scored one 'own goal' to end the game in a tie.

I have to admit, the atmosphere at MLS games is lackluster.  The Europeans make fun of us for turning soccer into a "kids game" with an emphasis on family friendly.  Short of rioting, I like the European craziness closer associated with American Football.  Maybe it will get there someday in the US.

On question for ya ruf:  Why would a team in Salt Lake - presumably the only professional soccer team in the state, call themselves "REAL Salt Lake."  I understand there are club teams, ie. REAL Madrid.  But I dont get it.  Same with "United."  Why would DC or Manchester be divided?  I assumed it was something to do with 2 clubs joining in Manchester at some point, but that never happened in DC.

Enlighten me, I dont get it.

Strangely enough, the game at "The Dick,".... er, uh... Dick's Sporting Goods Park last night had more crowd noise than I was used to hearing from Colorado Rapids fans in a while (okay, it was the high pitched screaming of kids, but hey, what can you do...?)... think about how comatose that same crowd would have sounded at Mile High Stadium (or Invesco Field)?

World Cup fails to fan US football fever
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4994746.stm

There are some fun supporters groups who chant and yell and sing....... but too many of these folks look like they just got back from a Star Trek convention or finished a game of Dungeons and Dragons...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1b/Section8chicago.gif/200px-Section8chicago.gif)
(http://web.mlsnet.com/t100/imgs/supporters2.jpg)

Actually, I kinda like the idea of calling a soccer team DC United (after all, we are the United States of America, so why not?... even if it is a pretty cheap ripoff)... I still think the New England Revolution is a cool name for a soccer team...

But I don't understand MLS's fascination with singular nicknames..... (Columbus) Crew, (LA) Galaxy, (Tampa) Mutiny, (Miami) Fusion, (Chicago) Fire, (Dallas) Burn, (Houston) Dynamo, (San Jose) Clash...... makes you wonder if it's a good thing Tulsa didn't get a league owned team in the 90s, lest we be stuck supporting the Tulsa Storm.... yippee! [B)]

San Jose did change their name back to their NASL moniker, the Earthquakes... then lost their team.

Answering your question:  I think it's pretty stupid that the new team in Salt Lake City actually had to have a pronunciation guide for the media (most called the new team REEL Salt Lake, while their team media guide asked them to pronounce it, Ray-Al... go figure).

But SLC has Dave Checketts committed to the team and attendance there has been really good, despite a piss-poor team (that now has Freddie Adu)... Dallas opened their new stadium as "FC Dallas,"  Toronto opened their new stadium this year as "Toronto FC," and Colorado had been rumored for months to be pondering re-branding the team "Rocky Mountain Arsenal," before staying with "Rapids" while changing their team colors...  In fact, one of the few teams with a plural name, the New York MetroStars, got bought out by a certain energy drink company and rebranded "Red Bull New York."

I think Major League Soccer is so afraid of ending up like the defunct-North American Soccer League of the 70s and early 80s, they've done the opposite of the NASL for awhile now... the NASL tried games in huge stadiums with astroturf, cheerleaders, shootouts so no games would end in a tie, and lots of foreign players.... while MLS has games on natural grass trying to get their own smaller venues, supporter groups, and games that don't go into overtime, let alone tiebreakers... the NASL tried to please everyone... MLS tries to find its niche in its hard-core fans...

Yet, the paradox here is that MLS is in cities where soccer gets little/no media attention whatsoever.... then you get ticket staffs who need "butts in seats" and cater to kids and their soccer parents...

I don't have a problem with MLS playing second-fiddle in larger cities like NYC, Chicago and LA but.....


10 Most Overextended Markets in Pro Sports
http://www.bizjournals.com/edit_special/36.html

KC and Denver are listed as two of the top five most overextended markets in pro sports... MLS failed in Tampa and has been looking at expanding into St Louis and Milwaukee over the past year or two... talk of Seattle, San Diego, Atlanta, and even Phoenix recently surfaced...
http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/major_metros_chart.html?hbx=slide_sport_article
(I think the methodology is flawed since it only takes into account major league professional sports, but you get the gist of the argument...)

Where could Tulsa fit?  Well, I still think Tulsans are a pretty adventurous group... I have no explanation for Tulsans' fascination and excitement over eating at Pei-Wei and the jolt in community spirit every few years when the PGA or US Open comes here... kinda belies the redneck, bible belt reputation, dontcha think?

And the average ticket price for Major League Soccer is less than half the average price for NHL or NBA tickets...

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_nhl_06-07.cfm
http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_nba_04-05.cfm

http://web.mlsnet.com/t104/load.jsp?section=stadium&content=frisco

quote:

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Despite moving into a sparkling new stadium, the FC Dallas 2005 average ticket price of $13.35 is the second lowest in MLS when compared to 2004 prices. The 2004 average ticket price at the Cotton Bowl was $14.15. As part of the 2005 pricing structure, full season ticket packages for FC Dallas are priced significantly lower versus 2004 prices at the Cotton Bowl. 82% of the seats in Pizza Hut Park have an equal to or lower price than their 2004 Cotton Bowl counterpart.

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quote:

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Originally posted by USRufnex

Per usual, AJ... you've missed the point.

I can say MLS would be viable in Tulsa.
Cannon Fodder can say MLS would NOT be viable in Tulsa.

If Cannon Fodder would like to argue why the commissioner of Major League Soccer was wrong in proclaiming, "The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us," he is certainly welcome to do so...

But if he gives incomplete or inaccurate  information, I will call him on it.  And I expect that if I offer incomplete or inaccurate information, he can/will call me on it.

The reason why I started posting on these forums was because I needed to confront those people who made grossly inaccurate assertions about Global Development Partners and their plans for the East Village back in Nov 2005...

You were most definitely one of the worst of them.  

Hugs-n-kisses,
(http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/02/47/f1/89/38269321.JPG)

--Ruf

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And you continue to miss the biggest point of all -- people express their OPINIONS on this forum. So your point about you and fodder expressing your opinions about the viability of MLS in Tulsa...

If you want to challenge someone's opinion, fine. If you feel the MLS commissioner's statements effectively refute someone's opinions, fine. But you react like it's some personal affront to you if an opinion is expressed that counters yours, like how dare such a blight on humanity be allowed to occur. Oh, the drama! [:O]

I got news for you -- people will continue to post their opinions on this forum. If you don't like it, post a rebuttal and be done with it.

MLS: Half the ticket price of NHL and NBA tickets, one-half of the excitement.

Considering how boring the NHL and NBA have become in recent years, that says something.

quote:

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Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

And you continue to miss the biggest point of all -- people express their OPINIONS on this forum.
-----------------------------------------
I got news for you -- people will continue to post their opinions on this forum. If you don't like it, post a rebuttal and be done with it.

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Yawn.  

Here we go again... guess I'm in trouble again with a self appointed member of the TulsaNow Forum Police...  

I have strong opinions.  I post in a confrontational style.  I've been posting like this on a handful of forums off-and-on over the past five years... and I've never censored anyone on this site... unlike your efforts to censor me (on a thread I created, BTW)...

If someone doesn't like my opinions or my style of posting, at least they can read most of the content of my posts regarding the prospects of professional soccer in Tulsa, and find lots of quotes, history, links and information on the subject...

If Patric starts a thread on the ills of modern street lighting, I will choose to censor myself by refraining from posting on a subject I'm not very familiar with.  So, if I post a message like "Acorn lights are cool... low-glare streetlights are boring," I'd expect Patric would hold little respect for my opinions and would say so...

And if someone makes a blanket statement appearing as fact or conventional wisdom in enlightening me that Major League Soccer, the World Cup, or soccer in general is boring........ I will respond in a personal fashion, with my opinion that I'd much rather watch any two hour soccer game with a 2-1 score over any three hour Major League Baseball game or an all day round of pro golf from the PGA tourney... and I will point out that Tulsa's 5,000 MLS season ticket commitments from 2003 is more than the largest crowd to watch the Tulsa Talons so far this season (last night's crowd of 4,994)...

It is my opinion that you confuse "drama" with confrontation, sarcasm, and general snarky-ness...

So, if you have problems with me, there's a nifty feature on this site called an ignore button.  


*****Tulsa high schools were looking to sweep state championships in 6A, 5A and 4A high school soccer last night... Union boys and girls took 6A, Cascia Hall's boys and girls took 4A, and in 5A, Bishop Kelley's girls won their 9th straight state championship... the only team from the other side of the Turner Turnpike to take state in soccer was OKC McGuiness boys, who beat Claremore 3-0 to win 5A...

yawn back at ya. You take pride in calling people on their BS... and so do I. That's why we snipe at each other, because frankly we're both full of it.

Back on topic, I wish TU would have done what they needed to do to accommodate an MLS franchise. Opinion alert: I think that ship has probably sailed for us for the forseeable future, so that TU deal was our best opportunity. We didn't take advantage of it.

"And if someone makes a blanket statement appearing as fact or conventional wisdom in enlightening me that Major League Soccer, the World Cup, or soccer in general is boring........"

^
Rufnex.. I have been giving more thought to this whole soccer vs baseball thing... and just maybe I can give you a some small insight as to why you are met with such strong opposition in Tulsa OK....

Now Bear in Mind this is just IMHO... not looking to start a rant or anything..

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In Tulsa... Oklahoma for that matter.... when you see a man wearing something that looks like a fancy pair of boxer shorts and a t-shirt
running across what could easily be a cow pasture... There is no need to get excited. It may just be one of the neighbors trying out some new weight loss program..

But when you see a man wearing what look to be those fancy designer pajamas and swinging a stick and hitting a little ball in something that looks as though it is out of the movie "Gladiator".....

That my friend is excitement..

quote:

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Originally posted by Rico

But when you see a man wearing what look to be those fancy designer pajamas and swinging a stick and hitting a little ball in something that looks as though it is out of the movie "Gladiator".....

That my friend is excitement..

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With all the problems professional baseball has had in the last few years with players on steroids, your use of the movie  "Gladiator" as a metaphor seems a bit ironic... no?

Football and ice hockey are contact sports... aside from a player occasionally sliding into second base or home plate, baseball is not a contact sport.

BTW, I used one of those free Reasor's tickets to go to the Drillers game against Wichita tonight... didn't make it past the fourth inning.  The biggest cheers from the crowd came when the milk carton and oreo cookie were having a "dance-off" and the race on the scoreboard between a cartoon ram, rooster and a dog...  Go dog, go!  

Then there's all that traditional baseball organ music...  [:o)]  

To each his own.

http://web.mlsnet.com/sights/index.jsp?club=mls&week=0513
If you want my idea of an exciting soccer game, click the link above onto the 350K Video Highlights from the 05/12 Fire @ Toronto FC game (I don't think Toronto will be providing free seat cushions again anytime soon)...... then compare those highlights to the ones from the 05/12 FC Dallas @ Kansas City Wizards game from Arrowhead Stadium and you'll see one of the many reasons why I think Tulsa is a better  market for MLS than KC....

Kansas City attendances at Arrowhead Stadium so far this season...

--Wednesday, April 25
Toronto FC Kansas City Wizards -- 7,438

--Saturday, May 5
Columbus Crew at Kansas City Wizards -- 7,426

--Saturday, May 12  
FC Dallas at Kansas City Wizards -- 10,141


...and here's my favorite reason to favor Tulsa...

"Below, an estimated crowd of more than 14,000 watches the Kansas City Wizards take on the Dallas Burn during a Major League Soccer exhibition game at Skelly Stadium on April 5, 2003."
STEPHEN HOLMAN / Tulsa World
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2005/051118_A1_Citym117_a1soc18.jpg)

--3,500 out of that crowd alone signed up for season tickets, giving credit card and checking information...

quote:

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Originally posted by recyclemichael

Can you tell us what cities have built soccer stadiums recently and what they cost to build and operate?

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Questions & Answers with Peter Wilt, former general manager of the Chicago Fire and current chief executive officer of Milwaukee Professional Soccer LLC.

Recent questions (some asked by yours truly) from bigsoccer.com:

Q:  What would be the annual operating expenses for Toyota Park or a proposed Milwaukee stadium?
A:  Milwaukee Stadium: Approx. $2.7M plus any property taxes.

Q:  How much less (I'm assuming it's less) are those operating expenses compared to the United Center or Soldier Field or Wrigley or Comisk----er uh, US Cellular Park?!?
A:  Just guessing: 60% of the others.

Q:  And what would be the differences in operating expenses for a grass field versus field turf?
A:  There are a lot of variables, but $250k to $500k annually is a reasonable range.

Also, the combination that got a downtown stadium built in Toronto... http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=2470

quote:

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The Federal Government, through Infrastructure Canada, has agreed to contribute $27-million while the Ontario Government has committed a further $8-million. The City of Toronto will contribute the land and $9.8-million and will own the stadium. MLSEL has agreed to pay a total of $18-million ($8-million toward the construction and a further $10-million to secure the naming rights for the stadium). The group has also agreed to provide a $2-million guarantee against operational losses.

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Up until fall 2006, Wilt was working with Global Development Partners on this Milwaukee project.... about the same time GDP was talking with former mayor LaFortune for the same type of plan for MLS in Tulsa... in August 2005, this appeared in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal... http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=345396

Average Joe:  "Back on topic, I wish TU would have done what they needed to do to accommodate an MLS franchise. Opinion alert: I think that ship has probably sailed for us for the forseeable future, so that TU deal was our best opportunity. We didn't take advantage of it."

I'd just say 1994 was probably the easiest opportunity Tulsa had for a team.  But a league owned team in Tulsa could very well have suffered the same fate as the league owned team in Tampa.... it failed and no local owner/investors surfaced to save it.

I still think the best opportunity was in late 2005 when Tim Kissler and Global Equity Partners came in-- a couple of years after Winnercomm/Tulsa World sponsored a successful exhibition game in 2003 that culminated in 5000 season ticket requests... you have these people from Wash,DC with a resume that includes Gallery Place so they have the kind of expertise that could pull it off.  An excellent 60 acre mixed use TIF project that would have brought MLS to Tulsa, included 40 acres of "walkable urbanity" for downtown, and a new stadium that wouldn't have been financed by regressive sales taxes...

Since the Tulsa group didn't seem to have the $$$ for a $15 mil expansion fee in 2005, it's doubtful they have the $35 mil expansion fee that's been quoted to interested parties in Las Vegas, Phoenix and Seattle/Portland of late... but if TU's interests coincide with MLS's, a lower capacity Chapman Stadium with extensive suites and a suitable field could offer MLS a reasonable and financially viable option in Tulsa... it's a longshot that would need to pique the interests of out-of-state/country investors, but according to Peter Wilt, things have changed in the past few months after MLS's signing of David Beckham...

More from Peter Wilt, quote from 5/22/2007:

"Within days of the Beckham signing we received inquiries from English investors through intermediaries. Nothing has come of it since however. We have also recently gotten serious interest from investor candidates in NYC, California and Milwaukee. i think it's fair to say that none or maybe one of them would have shown interest prior to Beckham's signing."

Q:  In your opinion, how much is David Beckham worth to the Galaxy, MLS, and U.S. Soccer?

A:  I don't think you can put a figure on it, but certainly much more than $32.5M over five years....and frankly, he's worth more than the bloated $250M figure that included endorsements and his share of new revenue streams. The numbers below are educated guesses and some may be shared with the player, but it will give you a general idea of the types and amounts of revenue an icon like David Beckham can generate.

The value is direct and indirect and includes, among other things:

* Increased ticket revenue for LAG ($5M/Year)
* Increased ticket revenue for rest of League ($5M/Year)
* Increased sponsorship revenue for LAG and League ($5M+/Year)
* Increased broadcast revenue for LAG and League ($5M+/Year)
* Increased value of HDC sponsorship, suites and club seats leading to renewals ($10M+/Year)
* Increased ancillary stadium revenues (parking, concessions, merchandise) ($2M+/Year)
* Significant exhibition tour fees ($5M+/Year)
* LAG jersey sponsorship ($3M/Year)
* Increased value in teams (???)
* Increased interest in the League by investors (???)
* Increased interest in the League by players (???)
* Increased credibility in the product (???)

------------------------------------------------

Updates... after the success so far of Toronto's downtown stadium, Houston Dynamo has a signed letter of intent with the City of Houston to negotiate for a 20k-22k capacity downtown stadium next door to Minute Maid Park.... and after all the talk of a youth soccer complex as part of a stadium deal in Johnson County, Kansas for the KC Wizards, OnGoal LLC is now looking at building a stadium on the site of the old Bannister Mall in KC,MO... ironic after OnGoal made it a point to tell the voters of Overland Park that a youth soccer complex would be integral to the success of a stadium there... last fall OnGoal LLC said they would build the stadium at no cost to the taxpayers in exchange for a $75-million publicly funded youth soccer complex... $75-million?!?  The taxpayers weren't fooled the the bond issue was voted down.  Construction costs for a Houston stadium are currently quoted at $70 million...