This from South Central Golf Magazine...
Mayor proposes closing 27 holes in Tulsa to reduce subsidy By Ken MacLeod
Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor today recommended closing 18 holes at the 36-hole Page Belcher Golf Course complex in west Tulsa and nine holes of the 36-hole Mohawk Park complex in north Tulsa as ways to cut into a $1.5 million subsidy the city paid this year for golf course operations and debt service.
The move, which would have to be approved by the Tulsa City Council as part of the 2007-08 fiscal budget, would eliminate approximately all but $606,876 of the subsidy, according to the mayor's proposed budget.
Tim Thornton, maintenance director for both facilities, said city employees who staff the maintenance departments for both courses were called to a meeting at a city rec center this morning with Susan Neal, a member of the mayor's staff, who delivered the news that at least 17 jobs would be eliminated if the plan goes forward.
Mohawk Park Golf Course
"It was a shock to a lot of them," Thornton said. "The city did say they would try to help all of them move to other areas."
The city has been subsidizing golf for years but the levels have increased as play has declined due to increased competition as well as maintenance issues and rebuilding efforts.
However, the city has recently completed more than $4 million in improvements to the courses, including complete renovations of the Stone Creek and Olde Page courses at Page Belcher under the direction of Tulsa golf architect Randy Heckenkemper and paid for by third penny sales taxes designated for capital improvements.
Ironically, under Thornton's direction, both the Page Belcher and Mohawk facilities have rounded into terrific condition this spring. Rounds, however, are still lagging. The two courses at Page Belcher would generate nearly 96,000 rounds in the early 1990s, but combined for just over 55,000 last year, according to George Glenn, director of the city golf courses.
Page Belcher Golf Course
Glenn's operations would also be affected by the move. He hires all pro shop, restaurant and range workers at each facility and pays for the cart fleets. To pay for his operation, he receives all cart rentals and money from the restaurants, ranges and pro shops. The city receives all greens fee revenues plus a lease payment from Glenn at each course.
Those payments for this fiscal year are projected to reach approximately $1.4 million this year, according to the officials in the city finance department. Max Wiens, land resource manager for the city of Tulsa, worked on putting together seven options on ways to reduce expenses at the Mayor's request.
Salaries in the past fiscal year for the maintenance of the courses were $1,190,000 and are projected to be $823,500 under the proposed plan. The annual water bill at Page Belcher (a city-owned facility) is $210,000, which will be cut in half under the new plan. Costs for expenses such as fertilizes and pesticides would also be trimmed in half, Wiens said.
The new plan calls for only two full-time maintenance workers at Page Belcher, with four others retained as nine-month seasonal workers. Whether that staffing level will be sufficient to actually maintain an 18-hole facility, Wiens said he was not sure. The total budgeted last fiscal year for the two facilities was $2,130,497, plus $450,000 for the debt service on Stone Creek for a total of $2,580,497, leaving a projected deficit of $1,516,970 over revenue. The payments on the revenue bonds used to build Stone Creek, which opened in 1987, extend through 2011, Wiens said.
The city has analyzed leasing the courses to a private golf management firm. Some feel that the elimination of all city labor union work from the maintenance crews would offer enough of a savings for a private group to make a profit at the courses. Glenn doubts that would be true. "There just aren't enough rounds to go around," he said. "Every course in town is searching for more rounds. Nobody is doing as many as they need to, that's why you see a lot of these specials advertised."
At Mohawk Park, it his highly likely that the nine holes currently used by the First Tee program, the original back nine of the Pecan Valley course, would close. This nine, a par 34 at just 2,775 yards, was redesigned by Jerry Slack after the original 17th and 18th holes were taken to make a driving range. The First Tee would keep its learning center, still have access to the range and use the back nine of the Woodbine Course for play.
At Page Belcher, it is uncertain as to which course would close. Stone Creek was designed by Don Sechrest and for many years after its opening was ranked as the best public course in the state. It hosted the 1988 USGA Women's Public Links Championship. Yet it has experienced frequent problems with its greens, making it the more likely course to close.
Bad Idea......
It would be a shocking move. But for a city to subsidize golf when there are so many other pressing needs is hard to justify.
I've tried supporting her but this has to be the most stupid thing I have ever heard of. For starters the months of April through September are the money making months for golf courses and she decides to close them now?
Obviously she doesn't research her agendas very well. [B)]
It's not a hard thing not to do at all....She's not looking at the big picture...Like the residual income that golf makes for the subsidy spent which is hard to measure....I dont golf but have alot of friends that do....And believe me when people golf they are out doing something they enjoy and spending money not just at the course....All over town....Not to mention the fact golf is something all ages of men and women can do....This is an extremely bad move...
Golf is a good walk, spoiled - Mark Twain
Dozens of private enterprises are making money off golf courses and the city is paying out to keep ours open, even with private individuals running part of the operations. Of course, I don't see why the golf cart guy should be allowed to take cuts out of other businesses.
Increase green fees at every course by $1 and you'd get almost the same effect as this cut.
Despite the "everyone can play" mantra, a good portion of the city doesn't play golf, even if they did they would have to pay greens fees, buy or rent equipment, etc.
Just like the pool closures before, it would be nice if they can keep them all open, but I'd rather have police officers than driving ranges.
quote:
Guess you "entitled" people will have to wait in line to play golf now. Sucks to be you.
By "entitled" do you mean "rich?" If so, what rich people play Mohawk in the first place?
The city ought to just sell most of its courses. I had no idea it had that many links under its control. But, then again, I'm not a duffer.
I think there are better things for the city to spend its money than a bunch of fairways and greens -- especially when you're having trouble paying for public safety and infrastructure.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
The city ought to just sell most of its courses. I had no idea it had that many links under its control. But, then again, I'm not a duffer.
I think there are better things for the city to spend its money than a bunch of fairways and greens -- especially when you're having trouble paying for public safety and infrastructure.
I think the Mayor tried to do this and couldn't. There some issues regarding land grants for the courses from way back.....or something. The point was, she wasn't allowed to pursue the sale.
I'm not sure if I read that or if it was just scuttlebutt at City Hall.
I'm in agreement - it's awful that we would close these holes when they're in such great shape and fun to play, but the city can't be spending that much money to subsidize golf. If it were swimming pools I might be more sympathetic. I golf weekly when I can, and I'm fairly certain golfers don't need public assistance.
I wonder if they could just bump the green fees?
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
The city ought to just sell most of its courses. I had no idea it had that many links under its control. But, then again, I'm not a duffer.
I think there are better things for the city to spend its money than a bunch of fairways and greens -- especially when you're having trouble paying for public safety and infrastructure.
I agree totally rwarn17588. I am no big fan of Mayor Taylor, but I think her proposal regarding the golf courses is absolutely appropriate and correct.
No one has mentioned so far the published quote from Taylor regarding this move:
"I could not in good conscience recommend to you a $1.6 million subsidy on golf courses when I cannot open and repair swimming pools in high-crime areas."
Tulsa has around 22 municipal pools, of which only 8 are anticipated to open this summer. Tulsa citizens paid good money for the construction of these pools and most are now laid to waste and deterioration. As these facilities crumble, they become blights on their neighborhoods and magnets for crime and vandalism. Repairing and opening all city pools would not only give "at risk" youth a healthy summertime activity, but would also help maintain neighborhoods and help deter crime in these neighborhoods.
In my opinion, Taylor hit the nail on the head. City government should make recreation and opportunities for youth in disadvantaged areas a priority over golf courses. I think that if the golf courses can not pay for themselves through user fees, they should be sold to private operators that can make them work or redevelop them for other uses.
They just redid the courses at Mohawk. Whenever I try to play on them they are pretty busy. It would seem a waste to spend millions to repair them and then ruin them by letting them sit fallow for a few years.
I would have to imagine a solution could be found be reducing the subsidy and replacing it with higher fees. The courses should be able to stand alone or at least to a large degree.
What a waste.
If the holes are closed does that mean there will be no maintenance conducted on this part of the course. If a golf course is just left to deteriorate and they want to reopen it in the future, they are just going to have to spend that much more money to get it back into playable condition.
If they are going to continue maintenance, which is expensive, then where's the savings. Raise the green fees by $1.
Plenty of people play these courses from various socioeconomic backgrounds.
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Frankly, I'm glad to see the City stop subsidizing golf courses when we badly need freeway lighting, and more money budgeted towards street repairs.
The City shouldn't be in the golf course business, and neither should the County, in my opinion.
My question is why are they subsidizing the golf courses, both these courses are money makers.
There is no way the courses at Mohawk made money.
I played all summer long when the weather was super hot. We would not see more than a couple of other foursomes during the entire afternoon.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
The city ought to just sell most of its courses. I had no idea it had that many links under its control. But, then again, I'm not a duffer.
Has privatization been looked at, and would we talking about amusement investors like, say, Bells?
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Frankly, I'm glad to see the City stop subsidizing golf courses when we badly need freeway lighting
The money we waste on inappropriate, misplaced and inefficient streetlighting is itself staggering. You only need freeway/expressway lighting at interchanges (other states have been doing that for decades). Continuous end-to-end lighting is intended for streets with pedestrians (and were not supposed to be inviting pedestrians onto expressways anyways).
If the city properly maintained reflective lines and Raised Pavement Markers you wouldnt even notice the difference.
(http://www.statewidetrafficsafety.com/sm_lh_curve_284w158h.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
It's not a hard thing not to do at all....She's not looking at the big picture...Like the residual income that golf makes for the subsidy spent which is hard to measure....I dont golf but have alot of friends that do....And believe me when people golf they are out doing something they enjoy and spending money not just at the course....All over town....Not to mention the fact golf is something all ages of men and women can do....This is an extremely bad move...
I thought that the "big picture" is that we have something like 378 holes in the metro.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
There is no way the courses at Mohawk made money.
I played all summer long when the weather was super hot. We would not see more than a couple of other foursomes during the entire afternoon.
The cost that golf courses try to operate on is $600 a day. Unless the owners of the course have to make a loan payment on the course, it only takes about one hour of tee times a day to cover the cost.
IMO Mohack made a mistake but shorting up the front nine of Woodvine. They should of built a par 3 course for the youngsters to learn their game on.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
The city ought to just sell most of its courses. I had no idea it had that many links under its control. But, then again, I'm not a duffer.
Has privatization been looked at, and would we talking about amusement investors like, say, Bells?
They can't sell Mohack but Page they can. There have been developers for years trying to buy one of the courses (on Page) to put homes on. It wouldn't surprise me that this is what actually is going on and our Mayor wants to bring that revenue in to help her non-effort budget.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Frankly, I'm glad to see the City stop subsidizing golf courses when we badly need freeway lighting, and more money budgeted towards street repairs.
The City shouldn't be in the golf course business, and neither should the County, in my opinion.
My question is why are they subsidizing the golf courses, both these courses are money makers.
uh, that's completely 100% false. Take away the City subsidy from the general fund and the two golf courses would've LOST a combined $1.6 million last year.
They don't pay for themselves. Your tax money pays to keep them open, instead of paying for more police officers or fixing more potholes.
Funny, how the elimination of this particular government subsidy has the "small government" people crying foul.
Kansas pours money into their motorsports entertainment venues that are privatly owned!
All the tracks in the Tulsa area are free standing from the government after Tulsa Speedway #2 was evicted off the Fairgrounds.
By the way it was a large money maker with 13,000 in the stands on most Saturday nights during racing season. Not to mention the entertainment of the tax payers and tourist values it created for the area.
Perhaps that 1.6 Million would of been better spent returning motorsports including autoracing to Expo Square versus mowing countless acers of grass every summer.
Wonder what the numbers are on Fair Meadows for the past 5 seasons?
Topeka invests in entertainment venue
"A GREAT City provides entertainment for people with a wide variety of interests."
Topeka Kansas, the State of Kansas all provided massive funding for improvements at the Heartland Park motorsports facility in Topeka.
"Raymond Irwin, who acquired Heartland Park in 2003, using his own money and some financial help from the city and the state, has made close to $20 million worth of improvements."
"The city recently provided $5 million for improvements at Heartland Park Topeka. If the improvements last 10 years, that means Topeka will have given an average of $500,000 a year to Heartland Park. That was an important project, but a great city provides entertainment for people with a wide variety of interests."
http://hpt.com/store/catalog/
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Frankly, I'm glad to see the City stop subsidizing golf courses when we badly need freeway lighting, and more money budgeted towards street repairs.
The City shouldn't be in the golf course business, and neither should the County, in my opinion.
My question is why are they subsidizing the golf courses, both these courses are money makers.
uh, that's completely 100% false. Take away the City subsidy from the general fund and the two golf courses would've LOST a combined $1.6 million last year.
They don't pay for themselves. Your tax money pays to keep them open, instead of paying for more police officers or fixing more potholes.
Funny, how the elimination of this particular government subsidy has the "small government" people crying foul.
Not false at all but the question is why the courses are losing $1.6 mil a year.
But seeing that it is ran by your city government of Tulsa, no telling where all the money is going. My guess is work has been done on the courses by the Good Ole Boys network and they are being overpaid.
As much as I like golf, I too think it is BS for the city to be losing money on these courses. But the problem isn't with the golfers but with the typical poor city management of Tulsa.
Just because I like to play golf I am selfish? FORE! You sliced that one!
I would rather 'subsidize' a golf course or other recreational area for $10 than EMSA for $3.50. My taxes should be used for improvements to our ailing parks, streets, police, fire, etc. not to line the pockets of a private company.
If they wanted to make a profit or even break even on the golf course, it's possible. The courses are run down and with so much competition vying for players, it's difficult due to those poor conditions. Golf is at an all time high in terms of popularity. Look what the county did at LaFortune. They spent money, redid an old worn out course and now, it's hard to get a tee time there.
<Porky wrote:
Not false at all but the question is why the courses are losing $1.6 mil a year.
But seeing that it is ran by your city government of Tulsa, no telling where all the money is going. My guess is work has been done on the courses by the Good Ole Boys network and they are being overpaid.
As much as I like golf, I too think it is BS for the city to be losing money on these courses. But the problem isn't with the golfers but with the typical poor city management of Tulsa.
<end clip>
I think the big problem is competition. Nearly 10 years ago, I remember an article in BusinessWeek or some other finance magazine (I can't remember which) that noted a high rate of new golf courses being built in the United States and that competitive pressures would force a number of them to close.
Someone said here that the Tulsa area has 372 greens in the region. When you've got the equivalent of more than 20 18-hole courses going against each other, something is bound to shake out. And the first casualties usually are public courses, which typically have to keep their green fees low to keep their customers. Hence, a subsidy that no longer is financially tenable.
Cut it loose. There are more important things to spend taxpayer money.
The City courses ARE run by private companies rather than City staff are they not?
quote:
Originally posted by NellieBly
I would rather 'subsidize' a golf course or other recreational area for $10 than EMSA for $3.50. My taxes should be used for improvements to our ailing parks, streets, police, fire, etc. not to line the pockets of a private company.
If they wanted to make a profit or even break even on the golf course, it's possible. The courses are run down and with so much competition vying for players, it's difficult due to those poor conditions. Golf is at an all time high in terms of popularity. Look what the county did at LaFortune. They spent money, redid an old worn out course and now, it's hard to get a tee time there.
How'd you feel about the proposal to have the Fire Dept to take over EMSA's duties?
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Kansas pours money into their motorsports entertainment venues that are privatly owned!
All the tracks in the Tulsa area are free standing from the government after Tulsa Speedway #2 was evicted off the Fairgrounds.
By the way it was a large money maker with 13,000 in the stands on most Saturday nights during racing season. Not to mention the entertainment of the tax payers and tourist values it created for the area.
Perhaps that 1.6 Million would of been better spent returning motorsports including autoracing to Expo Square versus mowing countless acers of grass every summer.
Wonder what the numbers are on Fair Meadows for the past 5 seasons?
Topeka invests in entertainment venue
"A GREAT City provides entertainment for people with a wide variety of interests."
Topeka Kansas, the State of Kansas all provided massive funding for improvements at the Heartland Park motorsports facility in Topeka.
"Raymond Irwin, who acquired Heartland Park in 2003, using his own money and some financial help from the city and the state, has made close to $20 million worth of improvements."
"The city recently provided $5 million for improvements at Heartland Park Topeka. If the improvements last 10 years, that means Topeka will have given an average of $500,000 a year to Heartland Park. That was an important project, but a great city provides entertainment for people with a wide variety of interests."
Tulsa Speedway hit 13,000 a couple of times when Hugh Finnerty was the promoter, and I believe those were during the fair during the early years of the 5/8 mile track ('74 to '76). The Tulsa Sunday World used to have a great racing recap and they would publish crowd numbers- usually 7,000 to 8,000. Finnerty was a great promoter, we had the nicest dirt track in the world at that time, and there was plenty of money available for racing.
Starting in 1982, in response to the deaths of Jr. Taft and Gene Daniel the previous year, they enlarged the 1/4 mile to 3/8 and moved the open wheel cars 100 feet or further from the fans. Coupled with the oil bust, that dipped fans to an average of 3,500 to 4,000 and hurt the car counts.
If auto racing would bring more tourism dollars here other than the Chili Bowl, an investment in it might make sense. Kansas Speedway and Heartland park bring in tourism dollars. It's sort of apples and oranges in the context you are looking at it. Weekly racing with weekend warriors really doesn't import money to a local economy, at least not nearly at the volume it does for touring series like NASCAR, IRL, or NHRA.
I believe I mentioned the golf courses when we were examining the city budget on some threads under politics and suggested leasing.
There's no need to sell the property. The city needs to get out of the golf and groundskeeping business. They could lease the courses out to operators, let them run it for profit and the leases become a net income and remove all budgetary risk for the city. Private enterprise seems to have a better track record at running profitable businesses than governments do.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaSooner
The City courses ARE run by private companies rather than City staff are they not?
Your going to love this one.......rofl
I just called the city on this and here's what the deal is.
As an example, Broken Arrow and Owasso are ran by private companies. The Tulsa city courses are also contracted out and you'll never guess who it is......it's contracted out to the city of Tulsa.
So instead of the city supplying workers for the two courses, the City makes the courses pay a management fee for their services like a private company would but obviously charging much more.
Absolutely unbelievable. rofl [}:)]
Guess if Bell's had been subsidized by Tulsa Sales Tax revenue they to would be in the same boat today as the little used golf courses.
My point being, it is wiser for a community/state to invest dollars in an existing private owned facility that actually is popular and attracts tourists, than to waste the same money mowing grass at a little used old school golf courses.
Heartland Park draws over 60,000 to their annual NHRA Nationals twice a year. Not to mention the 3/8 mile dirt track that hosts the World of Outlaws Sprint car tour, and the road course that is rented most weekends to clubs that draw over 2,000 through the pit gate.
A small investment of $500,000 per year created a revenue stream from people that live outside the area, tourisim dollars, sales taxes and money spend at local merchants.
Tulsa and Oklahoma seem to have a major problem with this type of concept. They would rather build a White Elephant old school assembly center type deal downtown with a Hocky Rink size floor that seats 20,000 people than to invest money into a motorsports complex such as Tulsa Raceway Park.
That would be a big draw if it had the same facility ammediaties as Heartland Park. Instead we have a small drag strip in one location, a road race course in Hallett 50 mile away and a closed down abandoned 3/8 mile at ?Tulsa Speedway at 66th street north and plowed ground. And don't forget the existing super nice facility at Expo Square that no longer seems to hosts major motorsports events due to the enemy called sand.
Just seems to me that Kansas gets it, investing money into an existing ongoing sucessful facility seems wiser than spending 1.6 million mowing grass.
By the way Tulsa is host to the IRHA Skull Shine Sooner Nationals coming up later this month May 25-27. This is a BIG event, with the first return of competition Nitromethane burning Funny Cars and Top Fuel Dragsters in Tulsa in over a decade.
http://www.tulsaracewaypark.com/
http://ticketswest.rdln.com/Artist.aspx?contentID=9492
I would submit that at even as low as 3.000 that would exceed the attendance for Fair Meadows Horse race events. Anyone have the numbers on those?
I have over 300 newspaper clippings from the 70's when Finnerty handled Tulsa Speedway. But also remember when Gerald Pritchard owned Tulsa Intentional Raceway and packed in thousands for the AHRA Nationala and the National Challenge races produced by Don Garlitz.
Tulsa Speedway fell victim to neighbor and noise pollution opponent Gloria Huckabee and her attorney husband as I recall. Drag strip fell victim to loss of Jim Tice and the AHRA and it could not get certification from the NHRA due to building design problems.
Who is to say what the crowds would be today had the racing stayed at Expo Square. I know Lanny Edwards still draws in over 4,000 at State Fair Speedway each Friday night and upwards of 6,000 for the ASCS Sooner Regionals a couple of times a season. Of course that public owned racetrack has been there operating for fifty years. Enid is also a public owned facility.
The weekly events at tracks like Tulsa Speedway #2 the 5/8 mile at Expo, drew in participants from four states. News of those events was published in numerous papers in several states. Not sure if the high cost of energy will allow travel again soon.
Tulsa Raceway Park and the land surrounding it seemed a natural for that type of development. Too bad the natural limestone and flood plane problems plague the owners plans for expansion of that facility.
Again, most things here could be great, but there seems to always be some major problem for growth, expansion or even existing at the same location due to noise or other issues.
Sales tax at Expo Square should prove to be interesting for the upcoming year should the Mayor not veto the annexation.
Everyone seems so excited when it comes to voting on money to build facilities for public use and entertainment, but once they are in use, there seems to be a continuous war to shut them down and turn them into a vacant dark quiet ghost town.
Tourist: Hey, nice big racetrack you guys have in Tulsa at Expo Square.
T-Towner: Oh, you mean the old Tulsa Speedway #2.
Tourist: Yeah, giant nice covered grand stands, big track and lots of parking, wow you guys even have a motel right by the track with restaurants and clubs near by.
T-Towner: Yeah, but the horse industry talked the County into replacign the clay with sand for horses and the motorsports kinda ended.
Tourist: Really? Why don't they make it for both? So both could use it at different times.
T-Towner: Well seems the city spent 1.6 million mowing the grass at a couple of their golf courses over the past 10 years and that 16 million that could of been used for other puropses is gone.
Tourist: So where are the motorsports events held in Tulsa now?
T-Towner: They hold them Indoors in that giant Expo Bullding that the motorsports community helped with funding for the enclosures of the sides and ends of the building when the IPE built it.
Tourist: So you have a nice 5/8 mile outdoor track with state of the art stands and lights and you race Indoors on a small track? I could understand it in the winter, but the it is great outdoors. You should be racing outdoors where it is warm and has fresh air.
T=Towner: Guess you need to ask the City and the neighbors as they seem to have taken over Expo Square. It was approved and built by the taxpayers of the county and city, but today it does not seem to be heading in the direction those folks intended when the money was approved. Maybe the Cityh will have the answer.
The city has a rich history of investing in the wrong things, and letting the good ones get away.
When did Tulsa Speedway North close/
quote:
Originally posted by dbacks fan
When did Tulsa Speedway North close/
It's been closed for a couple of years. Creek County is still open but if you want to see good racing go on over to the Salina Speedway just east of Pryor. There's also a good track south of Muskogee called Outlaw Speedway.
This thread is unbelievable. The golf courses don't generate anywhere near enough revenue to offest the costs, to the tune of needing a $1.6 million subsidy from the City general fund. The problem isn't the management, the green fees or any of that -- it's the number of rounds being WAAAY down. Tulsa is oversaturated with golf courses, plain and simple. So you guys would prefer the City keep bailing out a money loser until several of the privately owned golf courses go under?? Thought you guys were about the free market, private industry is always better. So let the private sector have more of the golf business in Tulsa.
It's like this -- imagine the City runs 4 hot dog stands. Back in the day, they were the only hot dog in town. But several years back, private interests opened a hot dog stand and it did well. Then another one did, then another, then another. Pretty soon, there were too many hot dog stands for the market demand. Got to the point where the City-run hot dog stands lost money. So what would be the right thing to do? Easy, for the City to close some or all of its stands -- get out of the market and let the privately-owned hot dog stands do their thing. Better for the City to back out than for one or more private businesses to fail.
I love golf, but this is the right move for the City. Especially if some of the land at Page Belcher can be sold for development -- put the proceeds in a trust and use the money to benefit golf course operations. That would take the pressure off and keep golf accessible for years to come.
Salina High Banks closed last season. Facility is for sale. Outlaw Motor Speedway hangs on by a thread since the owner was indicdeted for theft of State Highway equipment being a Road Grader.
Thunderbird Speedway at the old Muskogee Fairgrounds was bid on last Winter for $80,000 land and facility. New investors have stated they will be ready for activity at the veunue late August of "07.
Currently the only racing in Tulsa is Tulsa Raceway Park north on Hwy 169, Tulsa Quarter Midget Association on North Yale and Junior Raceway Park on West 51st Street, Tulsa Xtreme World MX track North Mingo, and Port City Raceway on East Pine. There are no big Sprint car tracks operating in Tulsa.
Other than the Indoor events Tulsa Shootout and Chili Bowl at Expo Square in the Winter, all the other tracks are located outside of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
Salina High Banks closed last season. Facility is for sale. Outlaw Motor Speedway hangs on by a thread since the owner was indicdeted for theft of State Highway equipment being a Road Grader.
Thunderbird Speedway at the old Muskogee Fairgrounds was bid on last Winter for $80,000 land and facility. New investors have stated they will be ready for activity at the veunue late August of "07.
Currently the only racing in Tulsa is Tulsa Raceway Park north on Hwy 169, Tulsa Quarter Midget Association on North Yale and Junior Raceway Park on West 51st Street, Tulsa Xtreme World MX track North Mingo, and Port City Raceway on East Pine. There are no big Sprint car tracks operating in Tulsa.
Other than the Indoor events Tulsa Shootout and Chili Bowl at Expo Square in the Winter, all the other tracks are located outside of Tulsa.
Well if there is a bright side to this, Caney Speedway may reopen this year.
Did I read today's (May 4) Tulsa World article correctly? The majority of telephone calls coming into city counselors about the budget have to do with concerns about swimming pools and golf courses? Is that really government's responsibility? My own opinion, but that seems a little silly.
I haven't read it yet but there is an article in the paper headlined to the effect of Tulsa County is wanting to take over the City courses rather than close them down. Not sure what that's about.
If that's covered elsewhere around here, I apoligize. [^]
I think the county taking over operations of the golf courses is the perfect solution. They do it right at LaFortune. Maybe the county should take over the pools, too. Tulsa City/County Parks and Recreation Department.
I guess I don't understand.....what would/could the County do that the City hasn't done or can't do?
The county takes a different approach to course management than the city.
I play at Mohawk because I can get cheap rates and tee times almost any time I want. It is great because during the afternoons in the summer, the course is wide open.
I play Lafortune when I play with better golfers. The green fees are substantially more and you have to wait on almost every hole because of the number of players, but the course is much better maintained.
I see one or two maintenence people when I play Mohawk, I see ten or twelve people when I play LaFortune. The county spends more money, but charges more money to play.
The county also has more convenient locations with courses midtown and south while the city courses are north and west.
quote:
Originally posted by NellieBly
I think the county taking over operations of the golf courses is the perfect solution. They do it right at LaFortune. Maybe the county should take over the pools, too. Tulsa City/County Parks and Recreation Department.
Excelent post....Makes you wonder if that was the goal all along...I find it amazing that people want to take money away from something provides "a quality of life".......
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
The county takes a different approach to course management than the city.
I play at Mohawk because I can get cheap rates and tee times almost any time I want. It is great because during the afternoons in the summer, the course is wide open.
I play Lafortune when I play with better golfers. The green fees are substantially more and you have to wait on almost every hole because of the number of players, but the course is much better maintained.
I see one or two maintenence people when I play Mohawk, I see ten or twelve people when I play LaFortune. The county spends more money, but charges more money to play.
The county also has more convenient locations with courses midtown and south while the city courses are north and west.
I can see some of that but I've played Woodbine a number of times and I thought it was maintained quite well. I played Olde Page last week and I thought it was in excellent condition.
Please explain how a City who has an anticipated $20 Million PLUS surplus in THIS YEAR'S budget needs to cut anything?
Miller's letter states that it is Tulsa County's responsibility to try to assist the city in any way it can, "since we all work for the Tulsa County taxpayers."
"Like the fairgrounds, we're just there for the community, we're not there to make a profit," she said.
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Thought that MONEY was the bottom line why teh County decided to evict Bells Amusement Park?
Even though is draws some oarticipants and fans from Oklahoma Caney Speedway is located in Kansas. I have been helping them get things rolling up there. Long hard battle with all the overgrowth and lack of hard surface in the parking lots.
Rain is the enemy there, and they have pushed back opening play days three weeks, and cancelled the opening night of racing for two weeks.
Track may be operational by late May if the rain subsides.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
I have been helping them get things rolling up there.
Your kidding, that is absolutely awesome your helping Ed out. I'll be up there next Saturday and plan on driving out to the track and visiting with Ed and Dan.
btw.......if you haven't tried it out yet, bring your fishing pole and try out the pond behind turns 1 and 2. There is actually a huge spring that feeds that pond and the fish are huge.
Again, I want to thank you for helping out Ed and Phylis. They are great people and hopefully you all will get the fastest quarter mile dirt track in the midwest up and running again. [:)]
And now we learn the reason for closing some of the golf courses may have all been because some developer wanted the land and this has been in the works for several, several months.
http://www.chrismedlock.com/2007/05/is-mayors-list-of-possible-developers.html
Well, I'm convinced.
1. The courses seem busy to me.
Whenever I have gone to play golf at Mohawk or Paige I have had to wait for a tee time. Usually not long, but I had to wait. Where are the numbers indicating that the play volume is "way down?" If it is down, why and will it go back up?
Closure could be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
2. Spin Off ventures.
What does the city gain by having these courses. Do these public courses somehow help us get the PGA events? Conferences, events or such things?
3. Private Enterprise
If the courses can not break even, then the city should not be involved. Why not set up a management lease with the courses and assign them to a private enterprise? A private company would honestly evaluate the fiscal ability of the courses in this market.
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I hate to see the courses closed. The city has TONS of money invested in them and has spent more in recent years. They are well utilized and in good shape. A way has to be found to secure the assets without throwing them away.
If the development deal turns out to be true, I will be extremely hostile towards our Mayor. Not because I have a particular affinity for the golf courses (which I use maybe 4 times a year), but because she violated procedure to benefit a private company ahead of the city while LYING about it to the public (me).
If I understand correctly, wasn't Paige redone with 2001 Third Penny tax money. And just a few years later, we're going to let all that tax money go to waste?
I'm a very rare golfer. I don't support the City supporting someone's golf habit. I'm against golf welfare. But I don't have a problem with the City providing golf courses as long as they pay for themselves. Raise the green fees!
I'm with ya Wilbur! And yes, yes they did spend tons of money on both Paige AND the MoHawk courses. The Mohawk courses look damn nice (as soon as the water receeds anyway) with new markers, rock retaining walls, and new bridges.
What will we use the land at Mohawk for if the course closes?
I think this city administration has visions and acts without planning things out:
what will happen to the gold courses if not in use as golf courses?
What will we do with the city buildings we abandon to go to the new shiny city hall?
Who is going to put asses in the seats at the BOk arena?
Where will those asses spend the night - since there isnt a hotel across the street.
. . .
Just received this in my email:
Rally For Page Belcher
Southwest Tulsa Chamber Opposes Closure of 18 Holes
The Southwest Tulsa Chamber of Commerce passed a resolution opposing the closing of 18 holes at Page Belcher Golf Course. Closing of these holes would effect the quality of life for many Tulsans throughout the city. With over 55,000 rounds of golf played this year it is obvious that this facility attracts individuals from across the county. It is expected that with new improvements made possible with a 4.1 million tax package, the course will attract even more in years to come. Page Belcher is an asset to the Southwest Tulsa area and should be safeguarded against any actions detrimental to its existence.
PLEASE RALLY WITH US
June 6th, 6:00pm at
Page Belcher Golf Course
6666 South Union Ave.
Preserve the beauty of the course. Make your voices heard. Attend the public hearing!