KTUL: Are Drillers moving downtown? (//%22http://www2.ktul.com/news/stories/0307/405890.html%22)
'It may not look like much now. Just some parking lots and old abandoned buildings.
But the area around 6th and Elgin is about to change. In fact -- a development group out of Washington, DC has been eyeing this Eastern edge of Downtown Tulsa and has some pretty big plans to bring new life to the area.
It involves a 14 block development -- with 800 units of upscale living -- 3 hotels -- office space -- AND -- an 8000-seat baseball stadium -- a new home for The Tulsa Drillers.
Chuck Lamson is Driller's owner.
"It would give us additional exposure and would bring more people out a new stadium new excitement and all that."
Developing this Eastern edge of Downtown Tulsa would help fill in the gap with other revitalization projects and Driller's Stadium will make a STRONG anchor.
Lamson says a move from Midtown to Downtown would be a win-win.
Good for Tulsa AND good for the team.
"I would hope it would help the momentum of downtown Tulsa and I think it would improve the entire community of Tulsa."
Huh? Is this the same development ya'll been talking about going bankrupt? Why does KTUL not discuss that important fact?
I don't know why on earth KTUL is posting that like it is a new story. There has been an UPDATE to the ongoing saga, which is that it looks like Global (the DC developer mentioned in the KTUL story) seems to be purchasing more properties so the worries of them being broke or dropping the deal are less today than they were a few days ago. The only problem now is that the other guy (Williams from Claremore, who pretty much flat out admits his plan is to put a Walmart there) is also purchasing properties. Both plans need all of the property in that district. Check the east end thread and the TW article from today (I think)
I've learned to not believe anything about construction in Tulsa unless I see the bulldozers!
quote:
Originally posted by robbyfoxxxx
I've learned to not believe anything about construction in Tulsa unless I see the bulldozers!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/1.jpg)
Yea.... Dozers..!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/DemoTime.jpg)
Demo Time.....!
[}:)]
lol.......get'er done Rico! [}:)]
Problem is the Whirld has no big brains anymore and is merely slinging out the same greasy hash.
So no, it's not de juvu, or new promise kinda hoped for, nor some ode to LSD.
Bonus points for recalling who was before Decso but long after AECOM , or, -GASP! - do I have that backwards? Could I be transforming into an old grumpy person, again!?!?
(sip)
"In fact -- a development group out of Washington, DC has been eyeing this Eastern edge of Downtown Tulsa and has some pretty big plans to bring new life to the area. ".
"Eyeing" and "big plans", well who hasn't been doing that? Tell us how much hard, cash these people have put on the block, and to whom!
What are we, mice?!?!?
May statement of the night:
"Investiagtive Urnalism: well, pee on that!"
jdb
I have desert coyotes howling on the back deck and reverberating into my ears, which sprouts hair upon my back and urges me to say mean things to ordinary, passive, pleasant type people.
Too bad these asshats couldnt work together and make something twice as spectacular. There is plenty of farrow land in downtown Tulsa that they dont have to fight over it! What about all the empty lots just East of the dome, or the much discussed block next to BOk? Or the sprawling empty lots everywhere?
I hope they figure this out. I'd be content with any new development as long a they dont start a fight and cause both of them to drop the whole deal.
A-freaking-men to that!
It just looks like "plenty of fallow land" but largely we have five different mouth's, with many missing teeth and developers want entire blocks - no eyesore's in sight.
Real deal is a population that is unwiling to live DT. But the demise of cheap gasoline will correct that, jdb
THIS JUST IN:
Ranger's DVD demoted to AAA, Oklahoma.
This might help attendance, eh?
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Real deal is a population that is unwiling to live DT. But the demise of cheap gasoline will correct that, jdb
Population will change their minds if/when all the downtown projects come to fruition. Think of downtown as a product. New product features and trendy marketing shifts the demand for the product in the postive direction.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Real deal is a population that is unwiling to live DT. But the demise of cheap gasoline will correct that, jdb
Population will change their minds if/when all the downtown projects come to fruition. Think of downtown as a product. New product features and trendy marketing shifts the demand for the product in the postive direction.
"postive direction"
Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....
I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...
Marketing a life style...? Interesting...
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Real deal is a population that is unwiling to live DT. But the demise of cheap gasoline will correct that, jdb
So if that's the case, why is occupancy high at the downtown housing units? And what of the market study that called for the creation of hundreds more units because of the underserved demand?
I think there's a segment of the Tulsa population who would LOVE to live downtown. The reason they don't is that there's noplace for them to live.
I know I'm oversimplying it a great deal, jdb. But we have a supply problem, not a demand problem, where downtown housing is concerned.
I do the same, AJ: however, why do we habitually see "move in special" banners on the rental buidlings in such a high demand market?
Guess I am a snob, I look more at the number of people buying buildings and moving in, not just a handfull of renters, whom move in and move out, to gauge an area's market.
Tell me, jdb
Living downtown isnt just about having the places to live. In our instance it would definitely help if there were more apartments. But what is missing is apartments or condos in an area of downtown that resembles a living urban neighborhood.
To me downtown still just doesn't feel or look like a place I, or many others that I know, would like to live in. But parts of it are getting there.
Yes I know you can argue, well if they dont move down there and build or refurbish old buildings.... But most of the people I know would decide to live downtown and would like to live downtown if they drove through parts of it and thought, oh, this is nice I would like to live here. In other words their needs to be a "neighborhood" for them to see, a street or area for them to imagine living in.
For the most part the core of downtown still looks like a bunch of office buildings, parking lots, abandoned run down structures, with no thriving streets of shops, store fronts, a grocery store, etc. There are fits and starts here and there with lots of potential. Everyone sees the potential, but they arent developers and entrepreneurs. They are just people who would love to move in and start enjoying their lives. Other wise they will just move or stay in the place or city they live in now.
Even my friends who live in and around OKC's downtown live in urban type apartments and condos that a developer built not a building that they themselves converted. Friends in Dallas, the same thing.
Many people would like to live downtown, its just that they arent the "pioneer" or "lets convert this old building in the middle of a sea of other run down buildings and parking lots into our home" types. They want a ready made environment, or one thats obviously on its way, or they will not bother.
Right now even many of the main streets around the likes of the Philtowere lofts are torn up messes. No trees, no light posts, no benches, just holes in the ground and piles of rubble. Its a brave soul that takes a chance down there now, someone who really believes and or wants to live in an urban environment. And thank goodness for them.
Downtown can get there. Some day "lots of potential" will turn into actual, visible, "oh wow I like this".
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
"postive direction"
Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....
I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...
Marketing a life style...? Interesting...
Gee, Rico... you've just described why most Tulsans from those "other" parts of the city won't vote a plugged nickel for "downtown only" projects...
Downtown subsidized housing for the rich is not a very popular idea here in east Tulsa.
And we fear that when your
Utica Square-clone downtown TIF projects are complete, we will not be welcome.
We are TULSANS, not tourists...
Whats Up Ruf... your team lose a game or something...?
Usually your more alert when you post.
Not asking for a "plug nickel"...
Downtown will do better building itself than as some 2025 log rolling event.
As far as a TIF for Downtown.. Last mention I heard of that was from Mr. Williams and "Wally"...
Have a Nice Day..!
Why don't we exchange verbal compliments when there is a little more of a challenge.?
What think you about the "Chess Game" Land acquisitions DT......?
Whoever can say Mate first will have the other with not quite enough land to do their plan.
And they will have to either sell or get in line with what is happening....
ay..!
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
"postive direction"
Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....
I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...
Marketing a life style...? Interesting...
Gee, Rico... you've just described why most Tulsans from those "other" parts of the city won't vote a plugged nickel for "downtown only" projects...
Downtown subsidized housing for the rich is not a very popular idea here in east Tulsa.
And we fear that when your Utica Square-clone downtown TIF projects are complete, we will not be welcome.
We are TULSANS, not tourists...
Don't you East Tulsan's have your own revitalization plans? If a large developer wanted to do something in the East side and asked about a TIF do you not think we would consider it like we would in downtown? I would, I know the east side needs help too.
Might there be a reason these developers are considering downtown versus the east side?
It seems that both the east side and downtown are suffering from similar things. People and jobs moving away.
What scenario is most likely?
A vibrant bustling downtown would help to bring about growth in the rest of the city, including the east side.
A vibrant bustling east side would help to bring about growth in the rest of the city, including downtown.
Are young people from the suburbs who want to leave the suburbs and have a more urban, city lifestyle, more likely to be attracted to Tulsa to live in, a revitalized east side or a revitalized downtown area?
I say we work on making both better. But many people, including developers, are going to see downtown as having the more attractive potential and as a key to making Tulsa a more competitive city.
Ageree with USR about any more tax monies on DT.
I dopted that after Main Mall sidewalk was done and then the Whirled ripped it back up to raze the corner. Was the last straw for me.
rico - The burbs had to be marketed...hell, they really need it now to keep the selling homes in Owasso. Is it just the shift back to DT that woke you up?
Bop you in the beezer later, jdb
I hope people that dont frequent downtown dont somehow think we (most of us) are plugging for a massively subsidized downtown for the few. I would greatly prefer a private downtown for the masses.
And don't be hating on the tourists, they can help pay the bills. I have no delusions that we will be an Orlando, but OKC is to the point where conferences and tournaments WANT to come to town because there members can have an entertaining long weekend there. That's money for everyone because they turned their downtown into something worth visiting.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Don't you East Tulsan's have your own revitalization plans? If a large developer wanted to do something in the East side and asked about a TIF do you not think we would consider it like we would in downtown? I would, I know the east side needs help too.
Might there be a reason these developers are considering downtown versus the east side?
Most of east Tulsa is
revitalizing on its own. My old bowling alley (Tiffany Lanes) is now a latino mini mall... Executive Mall has lotsa ethnic businesses... the housing editions at Magic Circle, Columbus Elem, etc have some "for sale" signs but have lots of people living there... even those small
crackerbox homes just south of Admiral between Sheridan & Memorial are mostly occupied... I just don't see boarded up homes -- possible exceptions are certain areas further east of Garnett/129th on Admiral and/or 11th St. but a TIF district wouldn't make a whole lot of sense there-- although a cool, well executed plan by a large developer for a "Historic Hwy 66" development would, in my opinion, be
TIF worthy... although a youth center/community center somewhere around 21st & Garnett would make more sense at this point...
The "plug nickel" remark was not
my opinion-- I personally think downtown TIF districts should either
"XXXX or get off the pot" and stop serving as pork/entitlements... how 'bout something bigger that will truly spur development???...
Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that many of the folks I've talked to don't trust
downtown activists and downtown-only politicians for a variety of reasons, and those reasons date back decades... and they certainly don't trust the rhetoric about "public spaces" in a project like
The Channels that in their opinion wouldn't accomplish anything other than give Tulsa's trust-fund babies a new place to play...
These same east Tulsans travel to OKC/Bricktown and would LOVE to see that kind of thing in Tulsa but fear their taxes would be spent on
The Forum 2; Electric Boogaloo complete with
The Magic Pan... Tulsa quiche was to the 70s as Tulsa sushi is to the 00s...
I know, how 'bout we open a cool taxpayer funded upscale downtown supermarket and call it McCartney's?!? [:O]
(inside joke)...
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
It seems that both the east side and downtown are suffering from similar things. People and jobs moving away.
Tulsa's
Oil Capitol of the World days are long gone but there are plenty of energetic 20-somethings living in east Tulsa and working there at DirectTV, Cox, Cingular, US Cellular, etc, etc... and if they're anything like previous generations of young Tulsans, many are likely at some point in time to sign a lease for a downtown or Riverside Dr. apt...
Of course, these same 20-somethings were in diapers back in the day when my Tulsa Roughnecks were hosting the New York Cosmos at Skelly... [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Are young people from the suburbs who want to leave the suburbs and have a more urban, city lifestyle, more likely to be attracted to Tulsa to live in, a revitalized east side or a revitalized downtown area?
I say we work on making both better. But many people, including developers, are going to see downtown as having the more attractive potential and as a key to making Tulsa a more competitive city.
Young people from the suburbs can do any number of things... and they will. But will they simply be
passing through downtown as renters or will they at some point see a neighborhood of substance where they can live longer term?
And then there are all of us jaded adults who are sick of downtown pipedreams with little substance...
Vision 2025 passed... the Tulsa Project did not... older Tulsans where I live do not want a repeat of the 90s and are highly skeptical of downtown-only projects...
This is not an either/or situation.
Memories, like the corner of my mind...http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=90058&postcount=57
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124922&postcount=60
my opinions/responses are NOT the ones in boldface...quote:
The answers civic leaders keep coming up with is to give special projects to downtown/Riverside... a few crumbs to the northside and ALL-THE-ROADS-YOU-CAN-EAT to the southeast...
quote:
Tulsa's downtown projects can be supported by everyone ONLY IF EVERYONE is included. OKC's bricktown has some smaller trendier places, some larger upscale restaurants... and a HOOTERS... Tulsa not only has been divided into different parts of town racially, it's also been very divided socially, and that, I think, is a much bigger factor than crime or racism as to why many Tulsans won't support upscale improvement projects for downtown...
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Huh? Is this the same development ya'll been talking about going bankrupt? Why does KTUL not discuss that important fact?
I don't remember anyone using the word
bankrupt.
A more accurate turn of phrase would be:
"a well constructed house of cards."The big question is whether the Mayor of Tulsa will settle this in the best interests of the city or just allow both groups to ?????
And if Global fails, will any self respecting out-of-state firm try to work with the city of Tulsa on downtown development again?
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
"postive direction"
Well; if the population waits until all projects are complete....
I'm afraid, all they can hope for, is that they have enough cash in their pockets to be tourists in the Downtown area...
Marketing a life style...? Interesting...
Just because an area is successfully revitalized doesn't mean it becomes gentrified, although it does increase property values. I'm not sure if you knew what I meant by "positive direction." I was referring to demand for downtown apartments/lofts, etc. The price of those apartments/lofts doesn't affect the aggregate demand for them. The aggregate demand is affected by external factors, such as hip new downtown nightlife, large concert venues, new downtown grocery store, etc. Those external factors shift the demand curve in the positive direction, meaning people who may have previously never considered living DT now want to live there.
Marketing lifestyles is commonplace for real estate developers. The developers of Forest Ridge in Broken Arrow have done a lot of that. The Utica Place developers use the well-known affluence of adjacent Utica Square and surrounding neighborhoods to assist in marketing their product. On the grand scale, Tulsa should work on marketing itself as an urban city with unique cultural districts. That is basically marketing a type of lifestyle. Cities want to market a lifestyle that is attractive to a large mix of people, especially tourists and prospective move-ins.
Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294
And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open? Who on the other end signs such a deal?
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294
And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open? Who on the other end signs such a deal?
Wow. I mean . . . why??? Why are they stealing our ****, and who is letting them do it? What the **** is the problem with this city!!!!!
"Sources close to the Drillers tell The News On 6 the team has signed a letter of intent with developers to possibly move to Jenks. The News On 6 has also learned that the letter is non-binding, meaning the Drillers can continue to look at other options." - well that sure isn't a press release.
OK, let them move to Jenks, but I say they can't use the name "Tulsa" Drillers.
Of course, I also think that this is a bunch of BS. Much like the Bells move to Jenks, the downtown movie studio, the NASCAR track, the American, Brad pitt and Jenifer Anniston moving to Grand Lake, or any of the other gossip that we fall victim to every few months.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Wouldn't this put a kink in the works for moving downtown?
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=134294
And how do you sign a letter of intent but keep other options open? Who on the other end signs such a deal?
"I promise that I don't promise to move to your development." Why even sign anything?? Yet another rumor run amok.
You can thank Bill White for pimping his property to the highest bidder, Seayco for giving us a Wal-Mart instead of a baseball stadium, and Global Development partners for not having their financing in order for this...you can also thank the City of Jenks, who facilitated this project, which is being done by the same folks that brought you Bricktown.
Look, this may or may not be a done deal. I would suspect the Drillers would at least wait until the River Vote takes place... but if these guys are going to build them a baseball park, why wouldn't they do it? If you owned the team, what would you do? They TRIED to come downtown...
quote:
Billion-dollar Jenks development could lure Drillers from Tulsa
By STAFF REPORTS
8/20/2007 6:21 PM
Last Modified: 8/20/2007 6:27 PM
JENKS -- A group of local entrepreneurs has unveiled plans for $1 billion development that could include a new home for the Tulsa Drillers.
The River District would be largest mixed-use development in the state and would include 852,000 square feet of high-end retail shopping as well as restaurants, and a variety of entertainment venues.
The more-than-300 acre site will also include 650 hotel rooms and a small convention facility.
A spokesman for the Drillers said the team has signed a non-binding letter of intent to move into a new stadium planned for the development, which would be just south of the Oklahoma Aquarium.
The facility would include a 7000-seat ballpark, developers say.
Team officials and developers say they will continue discussions about the team's possible more in the coming weeks.
The privately financed project is expected to hit the $1 billion mark in total investment dollars and create more than 4,000 permanent jobs and 7,000 construction jobs over the next five years.
Okay, I'm calm now. I hope hope hope this is only a rumor. I worked at Drillers Stadium as a youth--the franchise is close to my heart, and I would weep to see it leave town. Further, I continue to hold out hope that they move downtown or to the river near downtown. The Drillers moving adjacent to grazing pastures would be a brutal loss for the city's aspirations towards revitalization.
I will say this: If Jenks ever wants to get anything from the City of Tulsa again in terms of supporting major capital improvements, such as, say, a Light Rail line from Downtown to Jenks, then they better back off. Downtown Tulsa's continued suffering in no way helps Jenks. Owasso gets this. Jenks better get it, and get it FAST.
It seems to me that the Jenks development is going to happen more surely than any East End or Tulsa Landing development at this time.
I dont mind the Drillers going to Jenks and that development. I think it will definitely increase the number of people attending the games. They will be well suported there. And folks, its practically Tulsa anyway. No out of towner would know that there is some psychological line designating "thats them over there, this is us over here".
If I were the Drillers and was thinking of moving to a new location. Had been considering some sort of East End deal but kept watching the mess that we have all seen happening, continuing along with no real progress. Then was approached by what is a more likely to happen development.... Why not say ok, and
yet still leave some room just in case some sort of East End deal comes along that may be better. I think the original east end deal would have had better facilities and stuff around it, but if its not going to happen. Why continue to place all your eggs in that basket? The prize goes to the swift and the strong.
This, and many other things, are going to have to start sinking in to inner Tulsa developers and property owners that Tulsa is not the only kid on the block anymore. The suburbs are SERIOUS contenders for eeeeverything. Figure that out.
Those old interests and property owners once could hold out and wait for better times and think that people would then pay premium to redevelop the area once the "boom" started again. They have to realize that now people have absolutely no need to develop there and can just turn their nose up at them and build big developments in one of the suburbs.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
You can thank Bill White for pimping his property to the highest bidder, Seayco for giving us a Wal-Mart instead of a baseball stadium, and Global Development partners for not having their financing in order for this...you can also thank the City of Jenks, who facilitated this project, which is being done by the same folks that brought you Bricktown.
Look, this may or may not be a done deal. I would suspect the Drillers would at least wait until the River Vote takes place... but if these guys are going to build them a baseball park, why wouldn't they do it? If you owned the team, what would you do? They TRIED to come downtown...
quote:
Billion-dollar Jenks development could lure Drillers from Tulsa
By STAFF REPORTS
8/20/2007 6:21 PM
Last Modified: 8/20/2007 6:27 PM
JENKS -- A group of local entrepreneurs has unveiled plans for $1 billion development that could include a new home for the Tulsa Drillers.
The River District would be largest mixed-use development in the state and would include 852,000 square feet of high-end retail shopping as well as restaurants, and a variety of entertainment venues.
The more-than-300 acre site will also include 650 hotel rooms and a small convention facility.
A spokesman for the Drillers said the team has signed a non-binding letter of intent to move into a new stadium planned for the development, which would be just south of the Oklahoma Aquarium.
The facility would include a 7000-seat ballpark, developers say.
Team officials and developers say they will continue discussions about the team's possible more in the coming weeks.
The privately financed project is expected to hit the $1 billion mark in total investment dollars and create more than 4,000 permanent jobs and 7,000 construction jobs over the next five years.
Bull$hit........
Leverage.......
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
You can thank Bill White for pimping his property to the highest bidder, Seayco for giving us a Wal-Mart instead of a baseball stadium, and Global Development partners for not having their financing in order for this...you can also thank the City of Jenks, who facilitated this project, which is being done by the same folks that brought you Bricktown.
Look, this may or may not be a done deal. I would suspect the Drillers would at least wait until the River Vote takes place... but if these guys are going to build them a baseball park, why wouldn't they do it? If you owned the team, what would you do? They TRIED to come downtown...
quote:
Billion-dollar Jenks development could lure Drillers from Tulsa
By STAFF REPORTS
8/20/2007 6:21 PM
Last Modified: 8/20/2007 6:27 PM
JENKS -- A group of local entrepreneurs has unveiled plans for $1 billion development that could include a new home for the Tulsa Drillers.
The River District would be largest mixed-use development in the state and would include 852,000 square feet of high-end retail shopping as well as restaurants, and a variety of entertainment venues.
The more-than-300 acre site will also include 650 hotel rooms and a small convention facility.
A spokesman for the Drillers said the team has signed a non-binding letter of intent to move into a new stadium planned for the development, which would be just south of the Oklahoma Aquarium.
The facility would include a 7000-seat ballpark, developers say.
Team officials and developers say they will continue discussions about the team's possible more in the coming weeks.
The privately financed project is expected to hit the $1 billion mark in total investment dollars and create more than 4,000 permanent jobs and 7,000 construction jobs over the next five years.
Bull$hit........
What's Bull$hit, breadburner? That these Landbanking landowners could give less of a $hit what happens downtown?
Well, they should...they are going to watch their property values go down the DRAIN.
Jenks should think about the big picture. 6000 residents of Jenks. A BILLION dollar shopping center. They are going to get a new dam, paid for by 400,000 residents of the city of Tulsa... They get all of their water from the City of Tulsa, they drive on our roads. They need to look at the big picture...It does NO good for Jenks if Downtown continues to look like Beruit. YOUNG People who visit tulsa, who will consider moving here, or
staying here want a vibrant downtown, urban and sophisticated. They don't give a **** about some suburban theme park.
Take it for what it's worth, but a week ago at the Tulsa Press Club luncheon, Jim Norton of DTU said he was "80% certain" that the Drillers would be moving downtown, that Don Himelfarb was working with the Drillers, and that two or three or four locations (the number changed as Norton talked) had been identified, although he wouldn't disclose any of them.
I don't like the idea of the drillers being in jenks, especially when suburbs keep hindering public river development. I also believe that jenks will mismanage this like they do with riverwalk.
Jenks income doubled and they won't even give riverwalk a stoplight? Check.
Ripped up peoria and put not even a single stopsign? Check.
Hopefully the "Tulsa" Drillers aren't dumb enough to just take the first offer.
Bull$hit that some nutsacks are going to spend a Billion dollars in Jenks......
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
You can thank Bill White for pimping his property to the highest bidder, Seayco for giving us a Wal-Mart instead of a baseball stadium, and Global Development partners for not having their financing in order for this...you can also thank the City of Jenks, who facilitated this project, which is being done by the same folks that brought you Bricktown.
Look, this may or may not be a done deal. I would suspect the Drillers would at least wait until the River Vote takes place... but if these guys are going to build them a baseball park, why wouldn't they do it? If you owned the team, what would you do? They TRIED to come downtown...
quote:
Billion-dollar Jenks development could lure Drillers from Tulsa
By STAFF REPORTS
8/20/2007 6:21 PM
Last Modified: 8/20/2007 6:27 PM
JENKS -- A group of local entrepreneurs has unveiled plans for $1 billion development that could include a new home for the Tulsa Drillers.
The River District would be largest mixed-use development in the state and would include 852,000 square feet of high-end retail shopping as well as restaurants, and a variety of entertainment venues.
The more-than-300 acre site will also include 650 hotel rooms and a small convention facility.
A spokesman for the Drillers said the team has signed a non-binding letter of intent to move into a new stadium planned for the development, which would be just south of the Oklahoma Aquarium.
The facility would include a 7000-seat ballpark, developers say.
Team officials and developers say they will continue discussions about the team's possible more in the coming weeks.
The privately financed project is expected to hit the $1 billion mark in total investment dollars and create more than 4,000 permanent jobs and 7,000 construction jobs over the next five years.
Bull$hit........
What's Bull$hit, breadburner? That these Landbanking landowners could give less of a $hit what happens downtown?
Well, they should...they are going to watch their property values go down the DRAIN.
Jenks should think about the big picture. 6000 residents of Jenks. A BILLION dollar shopping center. They are going to get a new dam, paid for by 400,000 residents of the city of Tulsa... They get all of their water from the City of Tulsa, they drive on our roads. They need to look at the big picture...It does NO good for Jenks if Downtown continues to look like Beruit. YOUNG People who visit tulsa, who will consider moving here, or staying here want a vibrant downtown, urban and sophisticated. They don't give a **** about some suburban theme park.
One question...?
What portion of these developers monies are going to be able to build the infrastructure, train the law enforcement, build a jail,increase the size of everything needed to house this sort of development...?
I go with Rufnex on this "leverage"...
The tax portion that Jenks will get I suppose. I am really glad Jenks is moving along with its development. Glad someone is. If it keeps up, in around 15 years time that area of Jenks may become more urban than downtown Tulsa. Tall empty buildings and parking lots dont make an area urban.
When Jenks starts getting all hustle and bustle, perhaps we can start promoting Downtown Tulsa as a quiet, quaint, place to live and get away from it all. [:P]
LOI's most often have language which allows for wiggle.
Most are non-binding.
They serve as outlines for terms and conditions that may lead to enforceable contracts.
Jenks Jokers?
Jenks Jerks?
Jenks Jays?
Chuck c/b doing what's called shopping both sides of the street.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Bull$hit that some nutsacks are going to spend a Billion dollars in Jenks......
Its the best location in the entire part of the state in my opinion. Booming suburbs and South Tulsa. The right demographic of younger people who spend money and people that have money to spend. Right on the river. Near other attractions. Great visibility and road access. Just about everything around there is shiny and new. Large hunk of available property. Name a better location?
It's not the city of Jenks fault that the city of Tulsa cant get anything done with there 2025 money.
By the way Jenks is still trying to get a theme park... Bells did not have the money to get what Jenks wanted done.
(http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050906/01/2343402449.jpg)
"jaysus christ... jaysus christ... jaysus christ..."
"i got my eye on you..."
what the holy hell?... kick donkey, i'm so ****ing glad my taxes paid for an aquarium to be built down there only to have to pay more for admission as a "non-jenks resident" to go to the ****ing thing... and now they steal our baseball team, kick donkey indeed... somebody crapped the bed, and (this time) it wasn't me...
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
Bull$hit that some nutsacks are going to spend a Billion dollars in Jenks......
Its the best location in the entire part of the state in my opinion. Booming suburbs and South Tulsa. The right demographic of younger people who spend money and people that have money to spend. Right on the river. Near other attractions. Great visibility and road access. Just about everything around there is shiny and new. Large hunk of available property. Name a better location?
Downtown Tulsa.
Cheap land. NO zoning restrictions. A happy public. A city to extort.
Sounds perfect to me.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
Take it for what it's worth, but a week ago at the Tulsa Press Club luncheon, Jim Norton of DTU said he was "80% certain" that the Drillers would be moving downtown, that Don Himelfarb was working with the Drillers, and that two or three or four locations (the number changed as Norton talked) had been identified, although he wouldn't disclose any of them.
But does Jim Norton have any 'letter of intent' signed with the Drillers? Jenks does. Drillers appear to be confirming the letter of intent stories.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
I will say this: If Jenks ever wants to get anything from the City of Tulsa again in terms of supporting major capital improvements, such as, say, a Light Rail line from Downtown to Jenks, then they better back off. Downtown Tulsa's continued suffering in no way helps Jenks. Owasso gets this. Jenks better get it, and get it FAST.
I say "Go Jenks!" And it's funny. They seem to be able to do all of this without raising sales taxes. They have private developers with a vision willing to take a risk. Not a bunch of old Tulsa cronies who can only suck at the ti! of government to line their pockets.
And it appears they can do all this whether there is water in the river or not.
LOL... down town
View of dead buildings all around , Trash and not to mention all the bums.
Seriously every time I go down town at night I have a bum hit me up for money... something I get to avoid when going to Jenks at night.
It would be different if Tulsa had the train now but the train is (by the way the city of Tulsa moves) 15-20 years away so I like the idea of Jenks having the drillers... and some day a theme park close to it.
Aox is right. The Drillers are like a freshly divorced woman in a small town. Entertaining all offers, committing to none, till the best deal surfaces.
I can't imagine anything more sterile, more boring than the Drillers in suburbia but that is the model for a lot of minor league teams. Move to where the Lexus, Mercedes and Toyota SUV's are parked. Jenks bent over backwards to facilitate the Aquarium even using city employees to do work on it when it was still a private entity. They have shown they will do what is necessary to get the job done.
Let them build their own low water dam.
This may, just may, wake up the City of Tulsa.
Or else it's already too late.
Disgusting.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa1603
"Sources close to the Drillers tell The News On 6 the team has signed a letter of intent with developers to possibly move to Jenks. The News On 6 has also learned that the letter is non-binding, meaning the Drillers can continue to look at other options." - well that sure isn't a press release.
OK, let them move to Jenks, but I say they can't use the name "Tulsa" Drillers.
First off, I would prefer the Drillers downtown.
Second, this is not the city of Jenks, this is a private development. They aren't even asking for a TIFF. Any TIFF would likely be to complete the dam if the river plan fails. The phrase I have heard is the biggest private development in the history of Oklahoma.
Last, The Tulsa Drillers have never, ever, played a single baseball game inside the city of Tulsa. The old Tulsa Oilers may have played inside the city way back in the day, but it's been decades since there was a team in the city of Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
QuoteOriginally posted by Breadburner
QuoteOriginally posted by Kenosha
One question...?
What portion of these developers monies are going to be able to build the infrastructure, train the law enforcement, build a jail,increase the size of everything needed to house this sort of development...?
What portion? None. Their intention is the same as Tulsa's. Get the flash-bang first, worry about the underlying support and maintenance later. The taxpayers (maybe even Tulsa taxpayers) will understand as soon as they see what great stuff we've done and they will gladly endure the discomfort to be able to shop, drink, eat and buy Jenks Drillers t-shirts right near home.
This should be the final piece of the pie that gets Tulsa to back the river plan. This is happening, and the 106th St dam is doable now even without the plan, a TIFF on The River District would easily build the dam.
It's Tulsa that needs the river plan and Jenks does back that. A Tulsa Landing does not happen without the river plan, water in the majority of the river in Tulsa does not happen without the plan, fixing the Zink dam doesn't either unless Inhofe come through, which does not seem likely, and 1/3 of the Inhofe money would go to the 106th St dam anyway.
The River District, with or without the Drillers, is coming and if Tulsa does not act now, river development will never happen in Tulsa, it will move further and further south into Bixby and Broken Arrow leaving Tulsa far behind.
Are you still against the Kaiser river plan?
We may be watching the re-organization of government in Tulsa county without a single public vote cast. If what you say is true, this river district using TIF's granted by suburban towns and controlled by the county, regardless of the outcome of the river project vote, would be a bald faced power grab by the burbs.
Do you really want County control of the river development process utilizing a hand picked, rubber stamp oversight committee? Three elected officials that resemble, I'm sorry, the 3 Stooges? I can change my mind on the Kaiser plan. But I don't relish a small, historically corrupt county organization passing out pieces of the river development. No river corridor zoning in place, no underlying infrastructure, policing issues resolved. Just sign off on the deal and move along doesn't feel good to me.
rufnex, couched in Swake's terms, this isn't leverage, this is extortion.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Wow. I mean . . . why??? Why are they stealing our ****, and who is letting them do it? What the **** is the problem with this city!!!!!
+1
Lynn Mitchell must have never taken real estate development 101....
there's not enough demand for 800,000 sf retail and 600,000 sf office. Transportation out there sux.
I suggest they call themselves the Jenks Stink.
And dye the river green on St. Paddy's day...
And have gay pride tickertape parades...
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Lynn Mitchell must have never taken real estate development 101....
there's not enough demand for 800,000 sf retail and 600,000 sf office. Transportation out there sux.
I suggest they call themselves the Jenks Stink.
And dye the river green on St. Paddy's day...
And have gay pride tickertape parades...
The only reason I could see for Drillers moving to Smallville is if they intend to change the demographic of their fans. Currently, I doubt many of them live in Jenks.
The land is attractive at that site and the proximity to the river and a nearby creek (overflow ditch actually) is good. If there is the added attraction of new development around it that too is inviting. Didn't hurt the OKC minor league team to move into Bricktown. I guess that's their model. Frankly if Tulsa continues its decline, the fan base will move to Jenks.
The number of the Tulsa Drillers' front office is (918) 744-5998. Call and express your displeasure with the prospect of the Drillers leaving Tulsa. It's a small enough organization that you can complain to anyone who picks up the phone and Chuck will hear.
Don't let them spin it any other way - an out-of-town developer is trying to steal our baseball team and we will not stand for it.
While you're at it, the Mayor's Action Line is (918) 596-2100. Let them know this is an issue.
And if this goes through, the only river development I'm voting for is jack and ****. Those moneygrubbers can have their cow pasture development but they're not getting my tax money for their dams to go with it. **** them in the face.
Lets take a vote:
How many people on this forum who are opposed to the Drillers moving to Jenks actually have gone to a Driller's game this year?
If you haven't, you've got no right to complain because you are not the fan base the Drillers are trying to attract. Having been to, maybe, five games in 20+ years, I doubt they care about my opinion.
And as someone mentioned earlier, the Drillers have never been in the actual city of Tulsa. Their current location is considered country property, which means they are moving from Tulsa County to Tulsa County.
WHO CARES?
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Lets take a vote:
How many people on this forum who are opposed to the Drillers moving to Jenks actually have gone to a Driller's game this year?
If you haven't, you've got no right to complain because you are not the fan base the Drillers are trying to attract. Having been to, maybe, five games in 20+ years, I doubt they care about my opinion.
And as someone mentioned earlier, the Drillers have never been in the actual city of Tulsa. Their current location is considered country property, which means they are moving from Tulsa County to Tulsa County.
WHO CARES?
Obviously, I'm a fan and am outraged. I didn't miss an opener for about a seven year stretch, and I pitched peanuts there in high school and college.
And this nonsense about the Drillers never being in Tulsa is just that -- nonsense. Just because it's county land, it's still in the city limits. The Drillers have always played IN Tulsa, ON county land. Don't get cute with jurisdictions.
Jenks is trying to steal our baseball team, a franchise that would not exist if not for the core city of Tulsa.
Anyone feel like getting a little bit more involved........?Just received this email from the Mayor...
Tulsa wants the Drillers to move Downtown, and we need to let the Drillers know how much. Downtown ballparks are a proven sucess in city after city for economic vitality and vibrant city centers. Please contact Chuck Lamson to let him know how much Tulsans appreciate them, and that we want the Drillers in Downtown Tulsa!
Please forward this e-mail to friends and family.
Chuck Lamson
Owner
Tulsa Drillers
4802 E. 15th Street
Tulsa, OK 74112
Phone:(918) 877-3711
Fax:(918) 747-3267
chuck@tulsadrillers.com
Thank You,
Kathy Taylor
Mayor
How is Jenks trying to "steal" the team? Sounds to me that the Driller's have shown just as much interest in moving as Jenks as shown in attracting development. The current location of the stadium stinks. If the city of Tulsa or county for that matter wanted to keep them, they would have facilitated an environment that would keep them as an attraction. I would have preferred downtown location that Global had planned, before the Wal-mart announcement. But the development that is in the works south of the Aquarium is going to be a high end entertainment district. I have no problem with them moving there and having an excellent facility and environment. -- Let me see, keep the Drillers at the current location, and I can go to Wal-Greens before or after the game. Or we can move it downtown, where I can visit Wal-Mart...No, I think I would like to see it in a place that is going to be hopping with hustle and bustle before and after the game.
For all of you people out-raged, it's not like they are moving to Joplin. It's still the Tulsa area. And in reality, about 2 miles from the Tulsa city limits (or maybe closer). Not a big deal whatsoever.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Lets take a vote:
How many people on this forum who are opposed to the Drillers moving to Jenks actually have gone to a Driller's game this year?
If you haven't, you've got no right to complain because you are not the fan base the Drillers are trying to attract. Having been to, maybe, five games in 20+ years, I doubt they care about my opinion.
And as someone mentioned earlier, the Drillers have never been in the actual city of Tulsa. Their current location is considered country property, which means they are moving from Tulsa County to Tulsa County.
WHO CARES?
Obviously, I'm a fan and am outraged. I didn't miss an opener for about a seven year stretch, and I pitched peanuts there in high school and college.
And this nonsense about the Drillers never being in Tulsa is just that -- nonsense. Just because it's county land, it's still in the city limits. The Drillers have always played IN Tulsa, ON county land. Don't get cute with jurisdictions.
Jenks is trying to steal our baseball team, a franchise that would not exist if not for the core city of Tulsa.
Not cute, they are not in an annexed part of the city of Tulsa. They WILL be in two years, but they have not been.
I go to about 5 games a year. Not a hard core fan, but probably part of the base of their operation (the casual fan). When I go, I usually bring a few people with me. Its people like me that fill the seats, AA just does not have that many die hard fans.
So I guess I can complain. I'm also holding my breath. A non-binding letter of intent means nothing,e specially in Tulsa. Where development news is as cheap as the women at Caravan. Lets hope this jump starts something fun. I'm REALLY tired of development in places NOT Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Not cute, they are not in an annexed part of the city of Tulsa. They WILL be in two years, but they have not been.
Whatever man. If they go to Jenks, the Drillers will be moving from inside the municipality of Tulsa to a separate municipality. Not worth arguing about.
You want to keep taking it on the chin from the 'burbs? Fine. Real Tulsans are going to fight to keep our sports team where it belongs: in Tulsa.
EDIT: I see I'm picking a fight with a resident of Jenks, America. Not worth doing. Never mind, brother - keep pretending the team never was in Tulsa, so technically you're not stealing anything. And keep raiding the urban core of the municipality you depend on, till it rots, and you with it.
EDIT #2: Apologies. I'm livid right now. I have a strong emotional attachment to the franchise and to see it disappear from Tulsa hurts. I'll try to avoid further lashing out at anyone, even though it's easy to do on these forums.
quote:
Originally posted by ttownclown
How is Jenks trying to "steal" the team? Sounds to me that the Driller's have shown just as much interest in moving as Jenks as shown in attracting development. The current location of the stadium stinks. If the city of Tulsa or county for that matter wanted to keep them, they would have facilitated an environment that would keep them as an attraction. I would have preferred downtown location that Global had planned, before the Wal-mart announcement. But the development that is in the works south of the Aquarium is going to be a high end entertainment district. I have no problem with them moving there and having an excellent facility and environment. -- Let me see, keep the Drillers at the current location, and I can go to Wal-Greens before or after the game. Or we can move it downtown, where I can visit Wal-Mart...No, I think I would like to see it in a place that is going to be hopping with hustle and bustle before and after the game.
For all of you people out-raged, it's not like they are moving to Joplin. It's still the Tulsa area. And in reality, about 2 miles from the Tulsa city limits (or maybe closer). Not a big deal whatsoever.
Horse****. I'm tired of coming home to see things in my city vanish. The line is drawn and the bull**** stops here.
If this doesn't galvanize the city to action, Tulsa is a lost cause. I don't really understand why there's such parochialism in the outlying areas, but I'm sick of watching it from afar. I'm picking up the phone and writing emails until I hear this rumor die. I hope you all join me.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by ttownclown
How is Jenks trying to "steal" the team? Sounds to me that the Driller's have shown just as much interest in moving as Jenks as shown in attracting development. The current location of the stadium stinks. If the city of Tulsa or county for that matter wanted to keep them, they would have facilitated an environment that would keep them as an attraction. I would have preferred downtown location that Global had planned, before the Wal-mart announcement. But the development that is in the works south of the Aquarium is going to be a high end entertainment district. I have no problem with them moving there and having an excellent facility and environment. -- Let me see, keep the Drillers at the current location, and I can go to Wal-Greens before or after the game. Or we can move it downtown, where I can visit Wal-Mart...No, I think I would like to see it in a place that is going to be hopping with hustle and bustle before and after the game.
For all of you people out-raged, it's not like they are moving to Joplin. It's still the Tulsa area. And in reality, about 2 miles from the Tulsa city limits (or maybe closer). Not a big deal whatsoever.
Horse****. I'm tired of coming home to see things in my city vanish. The line is drawn and the bull**** stops here.
If this doesn't galvanize the city to action, Tulsa is a lost cause. I don't really understand why there's such parochialism in the outlying areas, but I'm sick of watching it from afar. I'm picking up the phone and writing emails until I hear this rumor die. I hope you all join me.
This is the reality until people quit moving to the burbs. Most of the new PRIVATE development will move with them. Tulsa must find a way to revitalize itself to stop this trend.
Just becasue you don't like it doesn't mean it's BS -There are several good reasons this would be appealing to the Drillers.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Not cute, they are not in an annexed part of the city of Tulsa. They WILL be in two years, but they have not been.
Whatever man. If they go to Jenks, the Drillers will be moving from inside the municipality of Tulsa to a separate municipality. Not worth arguing about.
You want to keep taking it on the chin from the 'burbs? Fine. Real Tulsans are going to fight to keep our sports team where it belongs: in Tulsa.
EDIT: I see I'm picking a fight with a resident of Jenks, America. Not worth doing. Never mind, brother - keep pretending the team never was in Tulsa, so technically you're not stealing anything. And keep raiding the urban core of the municipality you depend on, till it rots, and you with it.
Hey, read up, I want them downtown. Always have. I don't want them on river at 106th or at 21st.
I want them downtown, the best place for the Drillers by far is downtown. But with the inaction in Tulsa with developers downtown and the anti-tax sentiment in the city it's not looking good for them to get a site downtown in the foreseeable future. Combine the situation downtown with the apparent pending loss on the river vote in Tulsa and I can't blame them for moving on.
And I for one do go to games, not a lot, only 2-3 a year, but I do go. I would go more downtown and probably would in Jenks as well. And I'm far from alone.
Tulsa is down to 41% of the metro's population and falling, the "screw the suburbs" argument you are making is a losing proposition for Tulsa as Tulsa over time is a smaller and smaller percentage of the metro.
Certainly Tulsa needs to succeed, but, right now the majority of citizens in Tulsa are whiners that don't want to pay for anything and just want to complain. People in the metro area seem to get that Tulsa needs to improve more than residents of the city.
Remember 2025 lost twice as a city issue before passing as a county issue. The River tax is best for the city of Tulsa, the vast majority of the money will benefit the city. Owasso, Jenks, Bixby, and others get that Tulsa must do well, but the metro is at a point where Tulsa can't make it without the suburbs anymore either.
Please see apologies above. I shouldn't have lashed out. But this is a big deal, and it's a wake-up call because I don't think Tulsa proper, as a community, fully comprehended what has become the new economic and political reality. The fact that this deal very well may go through will either galvanize the city into welcoming future attractions, or finish off any aspirations to "destination" that the City of Tulsa might have had.
It's a watershed moment, to be sure. Bass Pro and the Aquarium were new ventures, so it was easy to avoid seeing them as Tulsa's loss, rather than the suburbs' gain. But the Drillers moving . . . that is so clearly a city/suburb loss/gain that there is no avoiding the reality of the situation.
I sure hope it changes. I'm not really a suburbs kind of guy.
If the Drillers move to Jenks they've lost me as a fan. I've been to dozens of ballparks and never enjoyed the suburban ones. Half of a park's allure is in its surroundings.
Enjoy the view of parking lots, strip malls and chain stores from your new generic, placeless ballpark.
I'll be burning my Drillers cap if this happens.
quote:
Originally posted by TheTed
If the Drillers move to Jenks they've lost me as a fan. I've been to dozens of ballparks and never enjoyed the suburban ones. Half of a park's allure is in its surroundings.
Enjoy the view of parking lots, strip malls and chain stores from your new generic, placeless ballpark.
I'll be burning my Drillers cap if this happens.
Don't forget to email Chuck Lamson your sentiments . . . chuck@tulsadrillers.com
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheTed
If the Drillers move to Jenks they've lost me as a fan. I've been to dozens of ballparks and never enjoyed the suburban ones. Half of a park's allure is in its surroundings.
Enjoy the view of parking lots, strip malls and chain stores from your new generic, placeless ballpark.
I'll be burning my Drillers cap if this happens.
Don't forget to email Chuck Lamson your sentiments . . . chuck@tulsadrillers.com
Done.
quote:
I'll be burning my Drillers cap if this happens.
Maybe all ten of you guys that actually care about the drillers can get together and have one big (well maybe not so big) hat burning. That would really show them. [:D]
On a serious note (yes I was just kidding above and I really don't want that to come across mean spirited), most of Tulsa will not care about this. I'm pretty sure that more Jenks/South Tulsa folks will be pleased with this, than downtown/midtown Tulsans will be disgusted. Plus if it works out financially for the Drillers (which it should), then they will be happy as well.
I don't think I have ever gone to a Drillers game, but I sure as heck will go if they build a new park by the river in Jenks/South Tulsa. Once the novelty wears off I probably won't go very much, but it will be fun for a while. Although who knows, maybe I will really like it and become a big fan.
On another note, I wonder how this will effect the annual bedlam game. 7,000 seats won't be enough. I wonder if they would still continue to play at the old Driller Stadium? I would assume that if they lose their only tenant, that it would go downhill really fast (it isn't in the greatest of shape already).
I've sent my email to Chuck.
Build a downtown park and we could have something like this.
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/dawg3322/memphis2.jpg)
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/dawg3322/memphis.jpg)
Build in Jenks and get a park like this.
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/dawg3322/rrock.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by TheTed
I've sent my email to Chuck.
Build a downtown park and we could have something like this.
[IMG]
Build in Jenks and get a park like this.
[IMG]
Well done
I'm a South Tulsa folk and I'm unhappy about this.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Lets take a vote:
How many people on this forum who are opposed to the Drillers moving to Jenks actually have gone to a Driller's game this year?
If you haven't, you've got no right to complain because you are not the fan base the Drillers are trying to attract. Having been to, maybe, five games in 20+ years, I doubt they care about my opinion.
And as someone mentioned earlier, the Drillers have never been in the actual city of Tulsa. Their current location is considered country property, which means they are moving from Tulsa County to Tulsa County.
WHO CARES?
I go to Drillers games all the time and I'm very much against the move.
My understanding is that the Drillers games are now taxed like everything other than the horse show.
I think Lamson should do what's best for his business ultimately. I'd like to see him take the risk downtown because I really think it can work.
This move will upset many current season ticket holders. Some will certainly be replaced, but you have to wonder how well this sits with some long time supporters. Not many businesses can run off half their customers and replace them.
I've talked to a couple of long time Driller season ticket holders today and they've had interesting remarks on the subject. One dropped his tickets in part because he thought Lamson was too much about his own profits. There is a very different feel to Drillers stadium these days.
Here is the official statement from the Drillers:
August 21, 2007 - Tulsa Drillers President Chuck Lamson has released the following statement in relation to today's stadium developments.
"The River District Development Group, the developers of the proposed River District in Jenks, has approached the Drillers about including a new stadium for our team in the project," said Lamson. "It is an idea that is very exciting for our franchise, and we have recently signed a letter of intent to further explore this possibility with the River Development Group. The letter is nonbinding, and we are continuing our discussions with the city of Tulsa. As these situations develop in the coming weeks, we will address issues at the appropriate times."
The loss of the Drillers from county property to county property is not the point. Its the loss of the Drillers from a potential synergistic position either downtown or within Tulsa city limits. That would be a net tax loss for the county and a tax gain for the city. But its the part the Stadium would play as leverage for other development that Tulsa would be losing with a Jenks move.
Try this on Jenks privateers. Start your own minor league team and build them a tidy, profitable little stadium to house them. Just for kicks make them a non profit like the PGA. They can drive over your privatized little bridge to get there.[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by TheTed
I've sent my email to Chuck.
Build a downtown park and we could have something like this.
[IMG]
Build in Jenks and get a park like this.
[IMG]
Well done
+1
When it comes down to it for me, they are the TULSA Drillers and belong here in TULSA. The separation between Jenks and Tulsa may be mostly in our heads, but to a fan, what else matters?
Only a river seperates Manhattan and Long Island, but don't try to tell anybody from the Greenwich Village that they are practically Long Islanders. And don't try to tell Tulsans that moving to Jenks isn't leaving Tulsa.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
rufnex, couched in Swake's terms, this isn't leverage, this is extortion.
So, this new method of political "sausage making" is now considered
extortion to you? Whatsamatta? You 'fraid of a little competition? [;)]
When I used the word "leverage" (in my homage to Joe-Biden-debate post), I meant mostly from the perspective of the Drillers organization.
You know what they want from the city of Tulsa in a new stadium? Concessions... and I mean that LITERALLY. [:P]
Of course they want us to build them a stadium.
Duh.
And we should, if we want them to move downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
Of course they want us to build them a stadium.
Duh.
And we should, if we want them to move downtown.
I think he is talking about a percentage of the
"real money" you know..........Beer and Hot Dogs ....Hot Dogs and Beer.$$$$$$$
Yep, Rico got my
double entendre... the Drillers' hafta have a really sweet deal on concessions at Driller Park... the current ballpark was built as Sutton Stadium in 1981, mostly from money donated by Robert Sutton, who was likely trying to liquidate his assets before the feds caught up with him and convicted him of fraud in 1982...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A05E4D61238F931A1575BC0A962948260
quote:
A Federal judge has ordered Robert B. Sutton, a former Tulsa oilman, to pay $210 million - to be shared by all 50 states - for reportedly making illegal profits on miscertified crude oil.
Judge Thomas R. Brett issued the order Monday in a $1.1 billion Energy Department suit against Mr. Sutton.
Mr. Sutton's net worth in October 1983 was $23.8 million, according to the court. His companies have filed for protection from creditors under bankruptcy law. Mr. Sutton was convicted in 1982 on two counts of obstruction of justice and was sentenced to three years' imprisonment. He is now in Federal prison at Fort Worth.
All this was back in the day of the Roughnecks, who had ambitions of their own...
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=980223_Sp_b1klein
quote:
"...I know in our heyday, when things were going great, we always talked about getting our own stadium. In fact, we went so far to have discussions with Oral Roberts University about building a 30,000-seat facility. We would have loved to have had a grass home to call our own."
Boy, but I can't wait for the city of Tulsa to take
Kenosha up on the idea of threatening to cut off drinking water to Jenks if they give the Drillers a better deal than the city of Tulsa will offer.... and threatening suburbs by witholding
light rail? Make me laugh. Gas prices will have to increase to $10 per gal before Tulsans even begin to learn how to carpool or take the bus... let alone light rail...
quote:
Originally posted by just_like_new
When it comes down to it for me, they are the TULSA Drillers and belong here in TULSA. The separation between Jenks and Tulsa may be mostly in our heads, but to a fan, what else matters?
Only a river seperates Manhattan and Long Island, but don't try to tell anybody from the Greenwich Village that they are practically Long Islanders. And don't try to tell Tulsans that moving to Jenks isn't leaving Tulsa.
You might try it on for size first. Try telling the New York Giants fans they really aren't a New York team, even though they play in New Jersey.
Detroit Pistons = Auburn Hills, MI
Dallas Cowboys = Irvine, TX
...............
And someone else said the stadium is two miles from Tulsa. Knowing the river isn't two miles wide, it would be more like two hundred yards.
And for us south Tulsa folk, a much easier drive to watch a game at a new stadium.
On the flip side, I've seen too many other sports teams and businesses threaten to leave their current location (with absolutely no intention of doing so) just so they could get some tax packages and/or new enticements to stay in the current city. Then, low and behold, when they get their incentives, they end up staying. Watch that happen here.
Another tax increase for baseball?
I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.
Why does anyone care? The more I think about it the louder the question becomes. Other than embarrasment that an aggressive little berg that depends on us for basic needs keeps outperforming us...what?
We all know that if Jenks had to provide their own water system, their own electricity, their own jobs, etc. etc. they would collapse on themselves. No use comparing the flexibility of a small town to the complexity of a bigger city either. We can't do all they do and vice versa.
If its leverage they or the Drillers want, go fish. We'll find another sports franchise or we won't and we'll come piss beer in your sewage system when we get the hankering for baseball twice a year.
Have some self respect though. Drop Tulsa Drillers and pick your own name.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.
Totally agree. I posted in the other thread a question of whether this Jenks Drillers development could just be the oligarchy trying to scare us into voting yes on the upcoming tax. The Tulsa World has orchestrated phase one.
I don't get how the Drillers possibly going to Jenks could be used to push the river tax? The River District would most likely go ahead with or without the dam and they would want the Drillers just as much, if not more, if the dams do not get built at this time.
They can easily say, "if the river tax passes, private money will be spent to build a ballpark in Tulsa"
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.
Totally agree. I posted in the other thread a question of whether this Jenks Drillers development could just be the oligarchy trying to scare us into voting yes on the upcoming tax. The Tulsa World has orchestrated phase one.
If you think the Tulsa World or Tulsa leadership has the ability to orchestrate such a ploy, you're living in the clouds. If the "oligarchy" were this shrewd, would the city already be at such a disadvantage that business owners give serious considerations to cow pastures? Give me a break.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.
Totally agree. I posted in the other thread a question of whether this Jenks Drillers development could just be the oligarchy trying to scare us into voting yes on the upcoming tax. The Tulsa World has orchestrated phase one.
If you think the Tulsa World or Tulsa leadership has the ability to orchestrate such a ploy, you're living in the clouds. If the "oligarchy" were this shrewd, would the city already be at such a disadvantage that business owners give serious considerations to cow pastures? Give me a break.
Well that cow pasture has unbeatable demographics.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
They can easily say, "if the river tax passes, private money will be spent to build a ballpark in Tulsa"
Nice try, but not at all likely to happen. The river tax will help spur river development not downtown development. The Branson Landing guy does not seem that interested in a ballpark and the Mayor and others want the ballpark downtown. The only thing that will get the ballpark downtown is downtown private development. What private developer would mess with all the hassle downtown has, and bad demographics, when they can easily go to the suburbs where the population growth, availale property that doesnt have to be "remediated", and money is?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.
Totally agree. I posted in the other thread a question of whether this Jenks Drillers development could just be the oligarchy trying to scare us into voting yes on the upcoming tax. The Tulsa World has orchestrated phase one.
If you think the Tulsa World or Tulsa leadership has the ability to orchestrate such a ploy, you're living in the clouds. If the "oligarchy" were this shrewd, would the city already be at such a disadvantage that business owners give serious considerations to cow pastures? Give me a break.
Well that cow pasture has unbeatable demographics.
Yet, a cow pasture it is. Infrastructure improvements that the high demographics of Jenks are sure to pay...Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. But the demographics will save the day. I really hope they get this thing. They need to grow up and face the same issues that bigger cities do.
Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site with worse demographics?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site?
Yes. There is existing infrastructure to serve a stadium in those areas. As well as existing services. All things equal it will cost more in Jenks for about the same return. But I'm all about private enterprise. I just think the public who will have to pay for the basics of a development ought to know its not a free ride.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site?
Yes. There is existing infrastructure to serve a stadium in those areas. As well as existing services. All things equal it will cost more in Jenks for about the same return. But I'm all about private enterprise. I just think the public who will have to pay for the basics of a development ought to know its not a free ride.
Don't make these assumptions about the impact on Jenks' infrastructure. While it is a pasture, this is not an area of "sprawl" for Jenks. While what most people think of as being Jenks is the older part of town to the north, the vast majority of people living in Jenks live south of this area.
The site is bounded on the north by the Creek Turnpike/Aquarium Drive, and Aquarium (known as 101st in Tulsa) is already an improved parkway with trees, jogging trail and decorative lighting, even if it's only two lanes.
The area to the north is already developed with the power plant and high-end residential. The east is the river, and the west has more land that borders Elm (Peoria in Tulsa) and some really, really high-end residential across Elm. And while Elm is not improved today, the funding to improve that street has already been passed. Construction should start soon on a project to widen Elm to a five lane parkway, also with jogging path to 111th. Elm north and south of this stretch is already improved.
Water should not be an issue as everything passes north and south up and down Elm already. Jenks has already overbuilt it's fire protection with it's new second station on the south side. So, the main new need for infrastructure will be a new 106th Street to link Elm to the project. A street that will be about ½ a mile long, nothing big at all. That and the strain on police, but that is easily solved with the increased sales taxes.
The area in question is a empty zone right in the middle of down due to it all being in the flood plain, which is the reason for the new lake in middle of the development, but it's hardly a expansion of the city with all new infrastructure needs.
[/quote]
Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. [/quote]
Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries. The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean. PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.
In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream. I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?
Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses). Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.
In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa. The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.
Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!
Hope that helps,
Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director
My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.
I don't think the city owns that much property in that neighborhood, do they? A baseball stadium won't fit on the site of the Hartford Building ;-) (and by the way, wasn't the ability to SELL that "very valuable" piece of property one of the benefits of moving City Hall?)
And speaking of infrastructure problems, building a baseball stadium at 2nd and Elgin blocks the streets connecting downtown to I-244 East.
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by swake
My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.
I don't think the city owns that much property in that neighborhood, do they? A baseball stadium won't fit on the site of the Hartford Building ;-) (and by the way, wasn't the ability to SELL that "very valuable" piece of property one of the benefits of moving City Hall?)
And speaking of infrastructure problems, building a baseball stadium at 2nd and Elgin blocks the streets connecting downtown to I-244 East.
I do think they own enough land, but even if not TDA owns more land around in that part of downtown. It may just take some swapping of parcels. If there's one thing that part of downtown has an abundance of it's empty lots.
The site will mean closing off 2nd.
The long term impact of a baseball stadium will far eclipse the short live one time budget bump from selling the Hartford building.
Overall doable and makes sense.
Personally, I don't think anyone could go wrong if they have the opportunity to buy real estate east of Detroit between the tracks & 11th St.
quote:
Originally posted by Vision 2025
Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. [/quote]
Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries. The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean. PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.
In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream. I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?
Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses). Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.
In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa. The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.
Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!
Hope that helps,
Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director
[/quote]
Good answer. Thank you. It wouldn't bother me if they put the Drillers there.
Swake, there will be lots of drainage and roads within the development won't there? And is the lake itself funded by the developers? Or does the city pick up the tab?
How will they run a water taxi on the downstream side of the lake where the development is? Won't that be outside of the living river area and thus too shallow and fluctuating?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Vision 2025
Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium.
Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries. The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean. PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.
In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream. I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?
Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses). Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.
In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa. The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.
Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!
Hope that helps,
Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director
[/quote]
Good answer. Thank you. It wouldn't bother me if they put the Drillers there.
Swake, there will be lots of drainage and roads within the development won't there? And is the lake itself funded by the developers? Or does the city pick up the tab?
How will they run a water taxi on the downstream side of the lake where the development is? Won't that be outside of the living river area and thus too shallow and fluctuating?
[/quote]
Jenks isn't paying for any of the project, as for drainage, Polecat drains most of Jenks (and Sapulpa for that matter) and it runs right through the property and the property is right next to the river. Only the north half of the property will be on the section of the river with a dam, so I would say that's as far as water taxis could go south. But, they could hit the north half and link that with the Aquarium, Riverwalk, Riverparks and Creek Casino.
Then honestly, what's all the fuss? We could have used a development like this along the river in Tulsa with the Drillers as a lever but we didn't show enough interest. If they want this instead of downtown then we'll find another lever. But if its just a leverage ploy by Drillers then bad show.