I've been doing some math, but I'll let you decide. I think it is better to drive a CNG vehucle than E85 and here is why:
new Civic GX configured the way I wamt it:
27,524
-1500 OK tax credit
-5000 Federal Credit
21024
Not bad? but wait, I need to fill it up. No problem, www.tulsagastech.com installs in home refill stations for @$4000
and you get an OK tax credit of 50% towards this, plus Feds give you $1000 tax credit towards this. So that suddenly becomes $1000 to install.
so for about $22000 I can get a CNG car that costs $1.25 GGE (gas gallon eqivilent) to fill up. Not only that, but if I install the home fill station, I qualify with ONG to get special home refill gas rates, which means all the gas I use at my house is at a lower rate.
I didn't even discuss the 50% tax deduction on the vehicle, since that would vary based on income, tax credits are direct write offs to your tax liability that anyone can get.
So if you are shopping for a new car, consider this.
oh, the car gets 28 in city and 39mpg hwy.
From what I know, they offer up to 150 mile driving range. So this would have to be a around town car.
Not to mention, without all the government giveaways, they dont pay for themselves.
Still - its not oil so a step in the right direction. I'm looking forward to hydrogen taking off personally. For the user, it would be nearly the same as these CNG vehicles but with the benefits of an electric drive system and water vapor emissions.
Those are pretty astonishing mileage numbers for CNG. Usually the fuel economy is not as good as gasoline with CNG, I think about 1/2 to 5/8 of the range. Are you certain that's the range configured with CNG or on gasoline?
If your MPG is that good, then the only draw-back becomes having to plan out-of-town trip routes to where you can get CNG out on the road.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cartablef.jsp?id=23862
Interesting facts, thanks Grizz.
Compared to the truck I drive now, the Civic would save me about 2/3 of my driving costs.
At 15,000 miles per year, assuming an average gas cost of $2.25 a gallon I'd spend $2250 in gas.
Now, the down-side: I need a truck and I'm somewhat claustrophobic in smaller cars. But I am doing my part recreationally- my other vehicle is a sailboat. Beats that Civic hands-down on fuel economy. [;)]
The VW Lupo is even better than the civic. The diesel manages 78mpg, which makes it even more efficient than the Prius. I think the future for the time being is getting the most out of diesel and gas, while the medium to long term will be the development of new fuels.
You can run diesel cars on vegtable oil or hemp oil with a few modifications which can lower the costs and carbon footprint.
according to honda the range of the vehicle is 200 miles in real world driving. I think they say 230 on paper. It isn't just an around town car. You could go to OKC and back because there is adequate filling stations along the way (CNG is offered at turnpike stops).
I recently saw a price check that said CNG in Oklahoma is $0.94 GGE (gas gallon equivilent) The tank only holds 8 GGE, that is why it is range limited. Still, I would rather pay $0.94 and fill up more often and not be lining the pockets of Exxon and terrorists (is there a difference?)
I found out some more information that Oklahoma tax credits you 50% of the incremental cost. According to Honda the incremental cost is $6350, so you are going to get $3000 tax credit for that.
I guess I (nor anyone) can complain that the government isnt doing enough to wean us off of oil.
I think a side benefit is that by using CNG you are helping the local economy since Oklahoma is the second largest natural gas producer in the country and we are home to 4 of the top 20 natural gas producing companies in the country (Devon, Chesapeake, Williams, Samson)
BTW, you can get CNG propelled Chevy trucks, but you'd probably have to get one through fleet sales. Heck if you really want a truck just call ONG and see if they have any up for sale. There is also a joint called www.cngmotors.com in Arizona that sells used CNGs, but you probably cant take the tax credit on one if its already been claimed. Apparently GM made a CNG Hummer H2....thats crazy, but I'd feel less guilty driving that than a gas guzzling H2.
OneOKs vehicles run on CNG and their parking garage downtown has CNG terminals. I parked at one with my gas guzzling Buick for a few months. [8D]
There is a car dealer here in town who sells only CNG vehicles. No idea where though.
Hybrids, e85, cng are all stop-gap measures until real alternatives like hydrogen fuel-cells can be used.
No way to say it's not feasible either after they built the H-Racer (//%22http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/education_h_racer.htm%22), a toy car that runs on water and sunlight.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
There is a car dealer here in town who sells only CNG vehicles. No idea where though.
Hybrids, e85, cng are all stop-gap measures until real alternatives like hydrogen fuel-cells can be used.
No way to say it's not feasible either after they built the H-Racer (//%22http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/education_h_racer.htm%22), a toy car that runs on water and sunlight.
I didn't imply that it wasnt a stop gap measure. But if someone needs a car TODAY and doesn't have 6 years to wait for hydrogen cars and infrastructure, why not get one of these. You aren't going to keep the car forever anyways...and if in 6 years hydrogen still isnt here, you can just buy another CNG car and keep using cheap fuel.
It sure beats paying $3 a gal for gas that you KNOW we will be paying by mid summer. A convienent refinery fire here, a pipeline explosion there....the ****ers in the oil business will do anything to keep prices high. Oil went below $60 a barrel, but gas shot up 2o cents. The refiners are CROOKS.
I think all the reasons for NOT doing this have been rebuffed. The fuel infrastructure is there, the incentives are a plenty and its cheap.
Yeah, cng has been around for decades, just becoming cost-feasible for the common consumer now.
SI- How much are you paying per liter for Petrol in the UK?
Grizz- I think you are talking about Morris Motors down in Morris, might be wrong he may be here in Tulsa. They did a story on the guy awhile back on the TV news. Looked like most of his cars/trucks were ONG surplus. A friend of mine bought one of ONG's 1/2 ton trucks a few years ago says his range is about 120 to 130 miles. He loves it but all his driving with it is around town. He takes another vehicle out of town.
Other than absolute government mandate, demand for alt fuel vehicles is going to be reluctant until auto makers can overcome the paradigms and skepticisms of lots of drivers.
i'm sure the reluctance will ease when people are getting bent over this summer for gas.
the first people to hit are the ones driving cars now for commuting purposes that get sucky gas mileage. Think most Big 3 crap cars.
the next people to hit up are the people considering civics, corollas, Focuses, and the like that don't know that you can get huge tax breaks for buying CNG cars.
the ole stand by group are tree huggers that simply don't know about CNG vehicles or are new to green concepts.
i mean I think the new Civic body style is super cool looking, unlike the rolling egg that a prius looks like.
Two hiccups that people have to get over are the loss in trunk space and the limited range. I think people can get over the limited range issue when they are filling up for $1 GGE. For the trunk issue, people will just have to adapt. really though, I think such a car will make a good second vehicle. people can still keep a gas drinker around for long trips. Or alternatively, get a flex fuel vehicle so if you head north you can take advantage of ethanol.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
SI- How much are you paying per liter for Petrol in the UK?
Grizz- I think you are talking about Morris Motors down in Morris, might be wrong he may be here in Tulsa. They did a story on the guy awhile back on the TV news. Looked like most of his cars/trucks were ONG surplus. A friend of mine bought one of ONG's 1/2 ton trucks a few years ago says his range is about 120 to 130 miles. He loves it but all his driving with it is around town. He takes another vehicle out of town.
Other than absolute government mandate, demand for alt fuel vehicles is going to be reluctant until auto makers can overcome the paradigms and skepticisms of lots of drivers.
I pay 89p a litre for petrol. Thats about $1.71. Its more for the high octane petrol.
[B)][B)][B)]
Roughly $6 to $6.25 a gallon. I'd be looking for something that got 75 mpg too!
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
[B)][B)][B)]
Roughly $6 to $6.25 a gallon. I'd be looking for something that got 75 mpg too!
Thats why you don't see Dodge Rams in the UK.
Here is a local web-site to help us all with our transportation desires.
http://www.green-traveler.org/
RM- I looked up the list of flex-fuel vehicles from the E85 link.
Greta Van Susteren (sp?) has been doing pieces on ethanol the last few nights. When she was interviewing Pres. Bush she said the people who picked her and her crew up when they went to tour an ethanol plant were unaware the vehicle they were driving was flex fuel.
There are a lot of cars out there from the list that I'm sure plenty of owners are unaware they are driving an FF car.
i like E85 and all, but the cost differential between it and regular gas is just not compelling, considering it has less energy per gallon (but more power). I guess in an ideal world I'd like a E100 powered sports car and a Civic GX to go to work.
a year ago I would have said go E85, but there are no gas stations here and none for the near future By the time OK gets signifigant ethanol infrastructure hydrogen will be a lot closer to reality.
In spite of what my friends in Iowa think, ethanol from corn is not the answer. There is even some debate on whether or not it produces or consumes energy (tractors use diesel to grow the seed, harvest, transport sort, and deliver it. Then again to till, plant, fertilize, spray and again harvest. Then they dry it. Transport it. Then start to make ethanol out of it which also uses energy. Then the ethanol is transporter yet again). Though most sources believe it does actually produce energy, it will quickly become horribly expensive.
We only grow so much corn. And corn only grows in desirably soil. So as we use more and more for ethanol our poultry, beef, and other food stocks will become more expensive. Duh.
Grasses or other items are more likely long term solutions for ethanol.
Switchgrass grows up to 12 feet tall and makes up to 10 tons of plant material per acre. Using biomass materials like switchqrass are also more efficient than corn in producing ethanol.
Using corn grain to produce ethanol is relatively energy-inefficient when compared to utilizing biomass. Producing ethanol from corn grain generates about 1.4 times as much energy as the process consumes when pesticides and fossil fuels are factored in. The energy yield from cellulosic materials is closer to 10-to-1.
The real difference why corn is used almost exclusively is because of the corn lobby. Most corn is produced in the Corn Belt of the upper Midwest, an area that benefits from the 52 cents per gallon federal tax credit for producing ethanol.
I get annoyed when the "we need to start looking at alternative fuels" crowd pipes up. If they really had any knowledge or concern about being less dependent on petroleum exports or lower emissions, they would know the research has been on-going for years, and is continuing into more viable technology.
This stuff doesn't happen overnight. The evolution of the internal combustion engine to where it would burn petroleum as efficiently as it does now has taken over 100 years.
I think one of the big things in the next 10 years are plug-in hybrids in which you can connect your car to solar panels to charge them up. Solar energy is likely going to be very competitive soon.
And if you have a really long road trip coming, you can still burn petrol in the hybrid car.