Tulsa Killed in Industrial Laundry Accident (//%22http://tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070307_Ne_A14_el2Ma11481&breadcrumb=local%22)
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CNN were reporting that last night. It sounds very sad, not a nice way to go all things considered.
Damn, our City died!?! Someone forgot to inform me of this yesterday. I most certainly would have slept in this morning.
People have been screaming for years that our City is dead, not sure they articulated that it happened in an industrial laundry facility, just goes to show how slow our local media is. Somehow they got the copy mixed up.
This is up there with my "Hanson convicted of murder" headline I had on my wall for 5 years.
when this is investigated further it will be discovered that he was undocumented.
He's the brother in-law of the dishwasher at the place I work. He showed up for work last night, but was obviously devastated about what had happened earlier that day.
Who cares if he was undocumented or not? He was here taking care of his family, working hard like his brother does every night and obviously not in the safest environment.
The only investigation I'm interested in...is how this happened and the safety standards at the plant. I could care less if someone is 'undocumented' or not.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
He's the brother in-law of the dishwasher at the place I work. He showed up for work last night, but was obviously devastated about what had happened earlier that day.
Who cares if he was undocumented or not? He was here taking care of his family, working hard like his brother does every night and obviously not in the safest environment.
The only investigation I'm interested in...is how this happened and the safety standards at the plant. I could care less if someone is 'undocumented' or not.
well buddy, if he hadn't made the decision to come here illegally he might still be alive somewhere wouldn't he?
the only thing I fault the employer for is fueling illegal workers by hiring the guy.
Starting off with 'well buddy' just reeks of you being a ignorant conservative with no grasp of the big picture. If you assuming his Latino name meant he's undocumented didn't already.
His brother in-law is perfectly 'legal' and 'documented'. Which leads me to believe he is 'legal' and 'documented' as well.
And I wish you well in life taking someone's death so slightly. I'm sure you're an all-around classy person.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
well buddy, if he hadn't made the decision to come here illegally he might still be alive somewhere wouldn't he?
the only thing I fault the employer for is fueling illegal workers by hiring the guy.
Unless you have knowledge that the rest of the World is not privvy to... you might want to rethink your stance on Latino's Legal or Illegal...
Either that or join the ones hiding in the "Gated Communities"..........
OK Muchacho.. [}:)]
Not speaking the native language makes your work environment more dangerous. Terrible accident that no one deserves to have happen to them though.
just wait for the report to come out. you'll see. using someone's dead grandma's SSN doesn't count as documentation. Where does the dishwasher work? I'd like to review his papers.
anyways, just wait for the report....
I'm sure it will show up on OSCN.
quote:
Originally posted by OurTulsa
Damn, our City died!?! Someone forgot to inform me of this yesterday. I most certainly would have slept in this morning.
People have been screaming for years that our City is dead, not sure they articulated that it happened in an industrial laundry facility, just goes to show how slow our local media is. Somehow they got the copy mixed up.
This is NOT the way I wanted our city to go down! I was hoping for meteor crash! Thank you, Kenosha, for sharing. Now we can build our town anew, with better downtown access to the river.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
just wait for the report to come out. you'll see. using someone's dead grandma's SSN doesn't count as documentation. Where does the dishwasher work? I'd like to review his papers.
anyways, just wait for the report....
I'm sure it will show up on OSCN.
Get a life.
was bracing myself to come back and find a WM plopped down in my hood but not the city kicking the bucket.
Suck's, why come back at all?
Ooooh, maybe I can get relief aid in the form a debit card so I can get some more tattoo's and a new color TV!
Looking up, jdb
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
when this is investigated further it will be discovered that he was undocumented.
And that matters why? Where is your documents?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
just wait for the report to come out. you'll see. using someone's dead grandma's SSN doesn't count as documentation. Where does the dishwasher work? I'd like to review his papers.
anyways, just wait for the report....
I'm sure it will show up on OSCN.
I will show you mine if you show me yours. Documentation that is. You need to get it out of your head that just because he is Hispanic does not mean that you get to question his legal status. For all we know you may have swam over from Germany or crossed the northern border. Illegally. So like I said before, where is your documentation?
There is no reason for people to talk about the immigration status. The accident was indeed horrific and sad no question about that... BUT, if he was illegal that is a crime plain & simple. It would also have been a crime to use false I.D and documents to get a job. There is no reason to defend illegal activity. Or so it seems to me. thanx.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
The only investigation I'm interested in...is how this happened and the safety standards at the plant. I could care less if someone is 'undocumented' or not.
Some really tasteless quotes thrown around here, even lower than usual for inteller. I agree often with inteller's comments but this time it's irrelevant if he was here legally or not. He's a human, and he has relatives who now have a void in their life.
It's not up to me to speculate whether or not this man was legal or not, or fluent in English or not. Most safety placards are bi-lingual now and/or have illustrations anyone can decipher.
IMO, Cintas runs a pretty tight ship when it comes to safety, consistently better than other industrial laundries I've been in. It's been a few years since I've personally been in that plant, but we have employees who do work in there on a frequent basis. Working in an industrial laundry would be a hell-hole to me, but Cintas would be less so.
Chances are employees get up on the conveyor from time-to-time and this poor fellow had done it before and been lucky. This time he was un-lucky. There aren't any safe short-cuts for safety. That's why plants must have lock-out tag-out training and have proper tags and placards.
Safety programs don't end all injuries and they don't alleviate Cintas' insurance company from paying out. All insurance companies hope for is that safety training and placarding will reduce the number of incidents. I'm sure there will be a pretty good settlement and we can look forward to a huge rant by inteller at that time.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
There is no reason for people to talk about the immigration status. The accident was indeed horrific and sad no question about that... BUT, if he was illegal that is a crime plain & simple. It would also have been a crime to use false I.D and documents to get a job. There is no reason to defend illegal activity. Or so it seems to me. thanx.
I don't think anyone is defending illegal activity. But when a white, black, asian, etc person is killed in an industrial accident, do we ask if they were legal or not? Does it matter to the story? Nope. It may matter to the ignorant self-centered people who read the story. But to the rest of us, this story is a tragic accident that claimed a life. I could care less what his citizenship status or what ethnicity he is. He died. By being thrown into a dryer. How much worse can death get then that? I am sure the dryer did not check before accepting him into the dryer.
quote:
But when a white, black, asian, etc person is killed in an industrial accident, do we ask if they were legal or not?
No we don't because they aren't the reason for the flood of illegal immigration we are getting from Mexico. It's already been reported this person was hispanic so there is no need to look for a white, black, asian or etc person that is named Jose'.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
But when a white, black, asian, etc person is killed in an industrial accident, do we ask if they were legal or not?
No we don't because they aren't the reason for the flood of illegal immigration we are getting from Mexico. It's already been reported this person was hispanic so there is no need to look for a white, black, asian or etc person that is named Jose'.
And from that you're assuming he's Mexican. Even though he could be from South America or Spain...or god forbid, a natural citizen.
You people are jokes. The man is dead and all you have are nothing but racist stereotypes to go by? I'm embarrassed for you.
quote:
And from that you're assuming he's Mexican. Even though he could be from South America or Spain...or god forbid, a natural citizen.
You people are jokes. The man is dead and all you have are nothing but racist stereotypes to go by? I'm embarrassed for you.
My bad .......please forgive me, Jose' must of been an Asian from Canada, whatever came over me. [}:)]
i think it is VERY relevant of his status. both for Cintas and the worker. when it is shown he is undocumented, then it will need to be investigated if Cintas was taking advantage of illegal workers by hiring them for cheap and giving them substandard training around such machinery. It also needs to be made aware to other illegals the potential risks you take (death) of allowing yourself to work in such conditions.
This incident was reported to ICE, whether they will conduct a WSE investigation remains to be seen. Considering they are so understaffed I doubt it. But if Cintas is smart they will come clean and shake out the dirty laundry to OSHA.
Its too bad HB1804 can't get passed faster. It would have provisions for situations like this. I know when it does pass illegals better leave town and shady employers better send them on their way because it will be fines and prison for all.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
And from that you're assuming he's Mexican. Even though he could be from South America or Spain...or god forbid, a natural citizen.
You people are jokes. The man is dead and all you have are nothing but racist stereotypes to go by? I'm embarrassed for you.
My bad .......please forgive me, Jose' must of been an Asian from Canada, whatever came over me. [}:)]
Or from another Spanish speaking nation.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
i think it is VERY relevant of his status. both for Cintas and the worker. when it is shown he is undocumented, then it will need to be investigated if Cintas was taking advantage of illegal workers by hiring them for cheap and giving them substandard training around such machinery. It also needs to be made aware to other illegals the potential risks you take (death) of allowing yourself to work in such conditions.
This incident was reported to ICE, whether they will conduct a WSE investigation remains to be seen. Considering they are so understaffed I doubt it. But if Cintas is smart they will come clean and shake out the dirty laundry to OSHA.
Its too bad HB1804 can't get passed faster. It would have provisions for situations like this. I know when it does pass illegals better leave town and shady employers better send them on their way because it will be fines and prison for all.
Again, you keep assuming he's undocumented, that he doesn't speak English and was being taken advantage of. All are assumptions with no valid proof besides a stereotype of his name.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
i think it is VERY relevant of his status. both for Cintas and the worker. when it is shown he is undocumented, then it will need to be investigated if Cintas was taking advantage of illegal workers by hiring them for cheap and giving them substandard training around such machinery. It also needs to be made aware to other illegals the potential risks you take (death) of allowing yourself to work in such conditions.
This incident was reported to ICE, whether they will conduct a WSE investigation remains to be seen. Considering they are so understaffed I doubt it. But if Cintas is smart they will come clean and shake out the dirty laundry to OSHA.
Its too bad HB1804 can't get passed faster. It would have provisions for situations like this. I know when it does pass illegals better leave town and shady employers better send them on their way because it will be fines and prison for all.
So let me see if I have this correctly: You are assuming he must be illegal because he has a hispanic sounding name? Or because he works in a laundry? or both?
You are an unbelievable racist, not to mention completely cold hearted and a bit sociopathic as well. You are the reason why intelligent people are hesitant to move to Tulsa. I would feel safer having 'illegals' as my neighbors than the likes of you.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
But when a white, black, asian, etc person is killed in an industrial accident, do we ask if they were legal or not?
No we don't because they aren't the reason for the flood of illegal immigration we are getting from Mexico. It's already been reported this person was hispanic so there is no need to look for a white, black, asian or etc person that is named Jose'.
I would expect nothing less from you. Since you have already proven yourself to be racist. SO sad since you are alone too. lol!
quote:
Originally posted by DM
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
But when a white, black, asian, etc person is killed in an industrial accident, do we ask if they were legal or not?
No we don't because they aren't the reason for the flood of illegal immigration we are getting from Mexico. It's already been reported this person was hispanic so there is no need to look for a white, black, asian or etc person that is named Jose'.
I would expect nothing less from you. Since you have already proven yourself to be racist. SO sad since you are alone too. lol!
lol........wth is this?
Cintas was warned to install preventative measures to prevent just this type of accident in 2005 according to news reports. Illegal Immigration could play a role in this(if so, it makes this tragedy even more corrupt), but I think Right to Work is what really is to blame for this tragedy. BTW, anybody remember John Pickle Company (//%22http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009PjS%22)?
Shame on us for allowing these companies to conduct business in this fashion in our backyards.
How does Right to Work have anything to do with a man getting killed in a giant drying machine? Because we are trying to get people off their lazy kiesters they are more likely to die in work accidents, so everyone stay away from work! I dont get it.
Also, I would be very interested to see a statistic about the rate of illegal Hispanics in Tulsa. Are 33% of Hispanics in Tulsa illegals? 50%? 10%? I have no idea. I couldnt even find the nationwide statistic.
However, I'm willing to bet the majority of Hispanic people with no marketable skills and poor English, who are not migrant farm workers, is here illegally. Statistically speaking, its probably true. The dumb quota system we have for immigrants is filled every year by Mexicans with a marketable skill set or migrant farm workers - so a Hispanic that is outside of that class and speaks little or no English, is probably here illegally.
Whatever I think, I'd like to know the numbers... not that it matters when someone is killed at work.
Illegals are undocumented, thus having numerical statistics on them is nearly impossible. There are only rough estimates available, and no one could say how close those estimates are. You'd have to interview apartment managers, home lenders, etc to get an idea of how many are packed into what places. Some apartments are pretty blatant about it, with spanish banners out front.
I've even seen it personally where it was apparent to me that a large family of hispanic ethnicity was living in unused office space. How much unused office space is there in Tulsa?
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Cintas was warned to install preventative measures to prevent just this type of accident in 2005 according to news reports. Illegal Immigration could play a role in this(if so, it makes this tragedy even more corrupt), but I think Right to Work is what really is to blame for this tragedy. BTW, anybody remember John Pickle Company (//%22http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=009PjS%22)?
Shame on us for allowing these companies to conduct business in this fashion in our backyards.
So far as I know, Cintas was never a union shop, so I don't get the connection. Care to explain?
Labor, Omnia, Vincit. You aren't the least bit biased about right to work are ya, AA? [;)]
There's nothing wrong with demanding safe working conditions, and a guy dieing in a giant dryer is a pretty good reason to bring the issue up IMO.
Double AA - are you saying that Cintas is a slave shop now? Wow, I'll have to ask my Cintas rep about that when he comes in next.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
There's nothing wrong with demanding safe working conditions, and a guy dieing in a giant dryer is a pretty good reason to bring the issue up IMO.
Safe working conditions are primarily an OSHA issue and I fail to understand how right to work would have made one iota's difference in this plant since it was never unionized, to my knowledge. As well, belonging to a union is no guarantee you won't suffer debilitating injuries or be killed on the job. There are plenty of industrial accidents in unionized plants all over the country every year.
All the safeguards in a plant still can't compensate for indifference to one's own personal safety, lack of common sense, or just plain stupidity. Safety devices are but a component to work place safety. Improper decisions and actions are more often the cause of work place accidents than failure of safety equipment.
Then you must either A) Not employ low pay low skill workers in an area with deadly equipment, or B) Require there to be a supervisor visually monitoring the low skilled workers manning the deadly machines at all times.
This particular incident sounds like the poor guy was there by himself with a deadly industrial dryer, which shouldn't happen if it is a low skilled legal American citizen or a low skilled illegal immigrant. It sucks that people have to be forced to protect their employees lives but when someone dies like this, obviously they need a little more pressure.
I'm just talking on a basic level here, I don't see how Right To Work has anything to do with it. Just sayin what I'm sayin, no agenda here.
I may be a bit old fashioned, but I think immigration status does matter. first if the laws were enforced that person never would of been working at that company in the first place, second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English. We need to secure our borders. Illegals need to be rounded up and shiped back. We are a nation of laws. As for PC terms how about calling an illegal "Undocumted law breaker" and that's not including the false I.D and stolen/fake SS numbers that are used to get jobs and credit and cars. That's a big reason why I.D theft is so high these days. Seal our borders!
Federal Court Rejects Policy On Employee Talk
AP - 3/16/2007 8:00 PM - Updated 3/16/2007 8:12 PM
CINCINNATI (AP) A federal appeals court Friday rejects a Cintas Corporation policy, saying it violates employees' rights to discuss working conditions at the nation's largest uniform supply company.
The company says it has some 32,000 employees in 350 facilities across North America, including 15 manufacturing plants and seven distribution centers. One of the company's facilities is in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
The ruling by a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia upheld a National Labor Relations Board conclusion that a company handbook policy violated federal labor protections.
A message for comment was left at Cintas' Cincinnati headquarters. The company could appeal the ruling.
The labor group Unite Here, which has been trying to organize Cintas workers, says the policy chilled workers' ability to form a union.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I may be a bit old fashioned, but I think immigration status does matter. first if the laws were enforced that person never would of been working at that company in the first place, second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English. We need to secure our borders. Illegals need to be rounded up and shiped back. We are a nation of laws. As for PC terms how about calling an illegal "Undocumted law breaker" and that's not including the false I.D and stolen/fake SS numbers that are used to get jobs and credit and cars. That's a big reason why I.D theft is so high these days. Seal our borders!
This is the thinking that has put us in the situation we are currently in.
How about...make it easier to gain work permits, advocate for better education of immigrants to learn English as their second language and stop thinking they are costing us money when in reality our policies are making it impossible for them to give in revenue they currently aren't but should be.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Federal Court Rejects Policy On Employee Talk
AP - 3/16/2007 8:00 PM - Updated 3/16/2007 8:12 PM
CINCINNATI (AP) A federal appeals court Friday rejects a Cintas Corporation policy, saying it violates employees' rights to discuss working conditions at the nation's largest uniform supply company.
The company says it has some 32,000 employees in 350 facilities across North America, including 15 manufacturing plants and seven distribution centers. One of the company's facilities is in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
The ruling by a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia upheld a National Labor Relations Board conclusion that a company handbook policy violated federal labor protections.
A message for comment was left at Cintas' Cincinnati headquarters. The company could appeal the ruling.
The labor group Unite Here, which has been trying to organize Cintas workers, says the policy chilled workers' ability to form a union.
A little bit of an update on this situation..
Unions seek investigation of worker's death
16 March 2007
TULSA, Okla. - UNITE HERE and the Teamsters are demanding federal agencies investigate and maybe prosecute Cintas on criminal charges after a worker for the firm, the largest launderer of industrial uniforms, was killed in Tulsa, Okla.
The unions said Eleazar Torres-Gomez was pronounced dead on the scene March 6 at the Cintas plant after apparently being dragged by a conveyor into an industrial dryer. Torres-Gomez was trapped in the dryer, which could be as hot as 300 degrees, for at least 20 minutes.
"This gruesome incident is the second serious injury at a Cintas facility in recent weeks," the job safety and health directors of the two unions added.
The unions are jointly trying to organize the 17,000 workers at Cintas, which is notorious both for rabid anti-unionism and for 170 safety and health violations in the last several years. Minnesota is one of the states where workers are attempting to organize.
If this accident came from a willful company violation of federal job safety and health laws, the unions' job safety directors said, Cintas should be prosecuted.
Written by Press Associates, Inc., news service.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I may be a bit old fashioned, but I think immigration status does matter. first if the laws were enforced that person never would of been working at that company in the first place, second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English. We need to secure our borders. Illegals need to be rounded up and shiped back. We are a nation of laws. As for PC terms how about calling an illegal "Undocumted law breaker" and that's not including the false I.D and stolen/fake SS numbers that are used to get jobs and credit and cars. That's a big reason why I.D theft is so high these days. Seal our borders!
This is the thinking that has put us in the situation we are currently in.
How about...make it easier to gain work permits, advocate for better education of immigrants to learn English as their second language and stop thinking they are costing us money when in reality our policies are making it impossible for them to give in revenue they currently aren't but should be.
Hire LEGAL citizens. Let's seal the border. That's the way to go. illegals take away jobs from citizens and drive down wages for everyone. Enforce our laws.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I may be a bit old fashioned, but I think immigration status does matter. first if the laws were enforced that person never would of been working at that company in the first place, second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English. We need to secure our borders. Illegals need to be rounded up and shiped back. We are a nation of laws. As for PC terms how about calling an illegal "Undocumted law breaker" and that's not including the false I.D and stolen/fake SS numbers that are used to get jobs and credit and cars. That's a big reason why I.D theft is so high these days. Seal our borders!
This is the thinking that has put us in the situation we are currently in.
How about...make it easier to gain work permits, advocate for better education of immigrants to learn English as their second language and stop thinking they are costing us money when in reality our policies are making it impossible for them to give in revenue they currently aren't but should be.
Hire LEGAL citizens. Let's seal the border. That's the way to go. illegals take away jobs from citizens and drive down wages for everyone. Enforce our laws.
Make it easier for work permits and they will be legal. And I don't know if you've ever been to the border with Mexico, but it is sealed more than any border in the world besides Korea. People will come over no matter what. The best answer is to make working permits legal, be proactive about educating them in English and stop being so black and white about the issue.
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So Long, Texas- Hello, Mexico (//%22http://www.texasreddirtmusic.com/slthm.html%22)
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I may be a bit old fashioned, but I think immigration status does matter. first if the laws were enforced that person never would of been working at that company in the first place, second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English. We need to secure our borders. Illegals need to be rounded up and shiped back. We are a nation of laws. As for PC terms how about calling an illegal "Undocumted law breaker" and that's not including the false I.D and stolen/fake SS numbers that are used to get jobs and credit and cars. That's a big reason why I.D theft is so high these days. Seal our borders!
This is the thinking that has put us in the situation we are currently in.
How about...make it easier to gain work permits, advocate for better education of immigrants to learn English as their second language and stop thinking they are costing us money when in reality our policies are making it impossible for them to give in revenue they currently aren't but should be.
Hire LEGAL citizens. Let's seal the border. That's the way to go. illegals take away jobs from citizens and drive down wages for everyone. Enforce our laws.
I'm curious how we seal the border? Do we conscript people to guard the border? What's the solution to sealing the border?
I vote we give south Texas back to Mexico. We should keep everything from Austin and north and let him have San Antonio and Houston.
Originally posted by okiebybirth
quote:
I'm curious how we seal the border? Do we conscript people to guard the border? What's the solution to sealing the border?
This question and many others have such a simple and obvious answer.........!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Ducktape.jpg)
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by okiebybirth
I'm curious how we seal the border? Do we conscript people to guard the border? What's the solution to sealing the border?
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U.S. Border Fence Built By Illegal Aliens
Comedy routines once again became reality today when a California company agreed to pay a $5 million fine for employing illegal aliens to build the border fence between San Diego and Tijuana.
About a third of Golden State Fence Company's 750 workers are illegals and the company was repeatedly caught with lots of undocumented workers on the payroll, according to the U.S. Attorney's Office. The company's lawyers admit it all, but say this just proves there needs to be a guest-worker program.
As Molly Ivins says, "If we build a 12 foot wall, they'll build a 13 foot ladder."
http://wonkette.com/politics/lou-dobbs/us-border-fence-built-by-illegal-aliens-222286.php
"second it's unlikely an illegal could read & understand warming signs and notices posted by machines since it's all in English." - Sauer
Was just along the border for a few months and noticed the "wash hands" signage in restrooms was in Spanish only.
The swanky joints too.
Also noticed empty soap dispensers and towel bins...some with dust.
Sign of days to come?
jdb
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I vote we give south Texas back to Mexico. We should keep everything from Austin and north and let him have San Antonio and Houston.
How about if we just take Austin & San Antonio, but they take the rest? I
really don't want Dallas.
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
Some of these posts are extremely mean in content.
It's like some of you are saying this man's life didn't count because he wasn't white, or maybe he was illegal (which none of you know to be a fact yet).
I'm embarassed for what some of you have said, and I'm sorry non-Tulsans can see your lack of empathy. That's total self-centeredness at its worst. It sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth to hear these things from Tulsans.
So true Teddy Jack, which is exactly why I decided a few months ago to steer clear of most political topics on TulsaNow; I prefer the nostalgia threads and neighborhood issues mostly as these don't tend to turn "ugly."
I suppose if we all had to use our real names (I do) and reveal our identities here, a lot of the nonsense and bigotry would not be posted. Also keep in mind that this is a public forum, and anyone can register and post here, not just Tulsa-area residents. Opinions expressed do not necessarily come from Tulsa citizens.
quote:
Originally posted by teddy jack eddy
It sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth to hear these things from Tulsans.
(http://www.applepics.com/11/blandbridenstine/123/listerine.jpg)