A mixed-use development that might include an urban-designed Wal-Mart is being planned on a downtown site that had been proposed for a baseball stadium.
Claremore real estate developer John Williams would neither confirm nor deny that Wal-Mart Stores Inc. is included in the plans for his development.
Williams, the sole principal of Downtown Tulsa Developers LLC, said he hasn't "personally talked" to Wal-Mart, "but it would be wonderful to have it if it fits."
Williams would not say if others have talked to Wal-Mart on his behalf, but he did say that if Wal-Mart locates a store there, it would be in an urban-style development.
He said he has talked to other retail, office and housing developers but said disclosing any details would be premature.
"The project I have planned -- if it comes into fruition -- will be a tremendous asset for Tulsa," he said. "It will be done well. It will be done right, and it will be done architecturally compatible. It will be a class act."
Williams said he has contracts to purchase land owned by Bill White and aerospace component manufacturer the Nordam Group, as well as a few other properties in
the area called the East End.
The area is generally located between Detroit Avenue and U.S. 75 and between Eighth and First streets.
Nordam owns the most parcels in the area, with White next in line.
When Nordam Chief Executive Officer Ken Lackey was asked if Nordam was negotiating with Wal-Mart, he said, "It's not Wal-Mart directly."
The White and Nordam properties had been part of a larger mixed-use development proposed by Global Development Partners, based in Washington, D.C. That proposal included plans for a new minor-league baseball stadium to house the Tulsa Drillers.
But Lackey said Nordam's land purchase contract with Global was terminated in early January after Nordam asked a judge to release it from the agreement.
"They (Global) were never able to consummate the transaction pursuant to the terms of the contract," Lackey said.
He said Nordam's contract with Williams still depends on winning certain concessions from the city, such as tax increment financing.
White said Global "obviously got into financial difficulties and kept having delays."
"You know, a businessman can only wait so long," he said regarding why he opted to contract with Williams instead of Global.
Global Development's Tim Kissler said the level of complexity of what his company was proposing and the complexity of the financing made it a time-consuming process.
"We certainly gave it a solid effort. We came up with the financing, but albeit just a little too late for the sellers," he said.
Kissler said the proposed baseball field would have been on the White and Nordam properties.
"So, basically, you've taken the core of it, and we can no longer do what we planned with the stadium," he said.
The city's economic development director, Don Himelfarb, said that no matter what occurs with either proposal, "the city is committed to having the Tulsa Drillers in a downtown venue."
He also said the city has seen the proposed plans from both developers and that "we're confident either one would be a great addition to the East End."
Kissler said his mixed-use development proposal is on a wait-and-see status.
"We're still interested in doing a project like we proposed in Tulsa, and we'll be exploring our options," he said.
Tulsa Development Authority Chairman Carl Bracy said whatever is developed in the East End needs to be something that helps downtown grow.
"Wal-Mart could be a tremendous engine in terms of funds for a Tax Increment Financing District," he said.
But he questioned whether a Wal-Mart would affect locally owned specialty shops intended for downtown.
"We need to look five to 10 years down the road and decide what we really want downtown to look like and work towards building a key destination point for all ages," he said.
Bracy said Wal-Mart has redesigned its stores that are in urban environments.
"In Little Rock, there is one in an exclusive neighborhood. I drove past it, and I almost didn't recognize it," he said. "It's amazing how they can fit right into the environment."
Jim Norton, president of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited, said he can't talk about a possible Wal-Mart store until an actual deal is made.
But he did say that if any big-box retailer plans to locate downtown, the appearance, landscaping and parking cannot destroy the fabric of downtown.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070223_To_A1_Urban26844
I dont care what you think of WM. But if they do an urban design and build a store downtown, I think it would help with bringing people to DT to live, work, and play. Because there are no places to shop for groceries DT. I think it is a great idea if WM can build a urban design store. I would rather it was more of a WM Neighborhood Market rather then a full super Center store.
Can't we find someplace else to build a Wal-Mart?
Super WalMart, Regular WalMart, Neighborhood Market...next YOUR OWN PERSONAL BACKYARD WALMART! What could be more convenient? [:P]
I am glad they are still committed to bringing the Drillers downtown. And I really liked the Global plans--I hope that would ever happens will be a similar mix use.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Tulsa Development Authority Chairman Carl Bracy said whatever is developed in the East End needs to be something that helps downtown grow.
"Wal-Mart could be a tremendous engine in terms of funds for a Tax Increment Financing District," he said.
But he questioned whether a Wal-Mart would affect locally owned specialty shops intended for downtown.
"We need to look five to 10 years down the road and decide what we really want downtown to look like and work towards building a key destination point for all ages," he said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070223_To_A1_Urban26844
I could not agree more with the concern about Wal-mart's presence potentially negatively affecting locally owned specialty shops intended for downtown. I would also be concerned that their presence would also eliminate the possibility of a good grocery store locating downtown (and yes I know Wal-mart sells groceries). I live downtown, and would love to see a grocery store downtown, preferably one I could walk to. However, Wal-mart could locate across the street from me (heaven forbid), and I would still drive to Yale to shop at Reasors. Urban style or sprawling Wal-mart, it's still the same junk inside. And I know alot of people who feel the same way. I'm just not convinced that the type of people who want to live in an urban environment (mostly, it seems, young professionals and members of the creative class) would EVER want to shop at a Wal-mart. They want interesting, diverse, and locally owned type businesses....things that make a place unique and interesting.
So we may have a store that is willing to locate in a place that may or may not have the customers to support it (yet) and that's a bad thing? No, I am not a WM supporter. But in this case I do not see Whole Foods, Albertsons, or Reasors willing to jump into this unsure market DT. Lets face it. When a WM moves in, other smaller stores move in too and can do generally very well. 111th and Memorial or 71st and Aspen are great examples. Now the WM neighborhood market on 96th has done very well too when it opened the only stores there was a shoe carnival (i think) and Kohls. Now they have expanded quite a bit since the WM neighborhood market went up. Of course most of it is due to the growth in the area but that area needed a grocery store and specialty stores around that area are still doing very well.
Can someone answer me this? Are the same Doritos sold at WM the same ones sold at Albertson's or Reasors? If so, why is it junk just because it is sold in WM? Now clothes and crap like that, yeah its junk. lol!
Would there be an issue if Target built a urban design store in DT?
quote:
Originally posted by DM
Would there be an issue if Target built a urban design store in DT?
No.
WM has enemies based on business practices, merchandise quality, betting (somewhat literally) on elderly employees dying, and their desire to wipe out competition. Also, target does not aim at Wal-Mart, they have specifically cater themselves towards higher-dollar items.
I for one, would welcome our low cost overlords to downtown Tulsa. For full disclosure, I shop at Walmart when convenient and hold a small amount of stock in them (under $3,000 worth).
I have known about this for about a year now actually. An attorney I know that did some work for WalMart mentioned it in passing as something WalMart was looking at. According to them, it is a test market item, the whole Urban image.
I have few, if any problems with the business practices of WalMart. The same complaints made against walmart are levied by people against Southwest and JetBlue. They are ruining the market, driving down prices, delivering inferior goods... who cares? They are giving consumers what they want, and that is the point of capitalism. That is why our country works.
If mom and pop had something to offer that was of value, they would stay in business. Fact is, a light bulb from Walmart for 99 cents works just as well as one from the corner hardware store for $1.50. If you want to support a more 'local' themed business, fine. I appreciate the things the smaller stores can offer in unique products, services, and atmosphere... but am not usually willing to pay for it.
Likewise, their pay is fair for an uneducated, unskilled workforce. I dont appreciate their anti union stance but certainly understand it. Not liking the quality of merchandise a store sells is a silly reason to discourage their growth (I dont shop at Coach, because I think its retarded to pay $500 for a purse. But wouldnt protest their opening). Buying life insurance on employees, while cold, was a good business move and didnt harm anything. I would be happy to discuss business practices in another thread as this is centered on development.
Anyway, if done correctly I would welcome a Walmart downtown with open arms. It would get a tax base, an anchor store, and people downtown. I would NOT welcome them if they were to build a typical box store with a sprawling parking lot. Though, sad as it may be, it would be a better use of space than the current.
A walmart would also provide NEEDED services to a growing downtown population. Grocery, toiletry, and household items would be in walking distance or many of the proposed/new lofts. A bonus is that anywhere WalMart goes, people are sure to follow... they dont build for fun. They do it because they can make money. It would be a vote of confidence in our downtown market.
So Im hoping a walmart (would prefer Target though) is part of a serious development downtown.
F*#k Wal-Mart and their always low wages, gender bias, forced unpaid overtime, and their exploitational offshore products. Let's get a Costco so Tulsa can be a real free market, instead of a Wal-Mart dominated monopoly.
SCREW...that.
I'm not even open to hearing opinions on this.
No Wal-Mart in downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by DM
Would there be an issue if Target built a urban design store in DT?
No.
WM has enemies based on business practices, merchandise quality, betting (somewhat literally) on elderly employees dying, and their desire to wipe out competition. Also, target does not aim at Wal-Mart, they have specifically cater themselves towards higher-dollar items.
Yes.
Get the box stores out of here.
Do you not want retail downtown, or are you just a walmart hater?
I would vastly prefer a main street shopping area with many small storefronts, but that isnt happening. Would you prefer walmart that LOOKS like a mainstreet and has people streaming in and out and tax dollars flowing to the city, or empty parking lots? Currently we have the empty parking lots.
I'm beyond a Wal-Mart hater...I'm a box store hater. Get that **** as far away from my urban environment as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I would vastly prefer a main street shopping area with many small storefronts, but that isnt happening. Would you prefer walmart that LOOKS like a mainstreet and has people streaming in and out and tax dollars flowing to the city, or empty parking lots? Currently we have the empty parking lots.
1. I don't trust Wal-Mart.
2. Don't try and sell that crap as if you're saving the life of downtown.
3. Locally owned is what downtown needs.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Would you prefer walmart that LOOKS like a mainstreet and has people streaming in and out and tax dollars flowing to the city, or empty parking lots? Currently we have the empty parking lots.
Mmmmmm I am liking the mainstreet redux, actually.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
I'm beyond a Wal-Mart hater...I'm a box store hater. Get that **** as far away from my urban environment as possible.
I agree that it should not be any big box type store like the Home Depot DT. But if it were of an urban design I would not care if it were WM, Target, Kmart, etc. An urban type store like this would enable people to live DT and create more of a life DT. Not just for clubs either. Of course not WM itself would do this. But a grocery store is exactly what DT needs and it seems WM is willing to take the risk.
Can someone show me an example of Wal-Mart's so-called urban design in a downtown area?
This is laughable, almost as laughable as the people who are saying it's a good idea.
Here is a link to a story about this type of Wal-Mart store.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-14-walmart-designs_x.htm
Gentlemen.. Gentlemen... Please.
We have been down this road before... This is the same piece of pork with an entirely different shade of lip gloss.......
You know you are itchin... for a great deal to compliment the $140 ? $180 Million Dollar Designer Arena..
Like this little casual design here...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/urbanSam.jpg)
or this over the top "China Girl" number from a few years back...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/UrbanWally2.jpg)
I kinda think this version captures the East End today and in the next Millenium.....
Little more of that lip gloss and a spray or two of that "Eau de Coty #5" and it's a done deal..
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/UrbanWally1.jpg)
An urban design Wal-Mart would be fine. Especially if they do as mentioned in the article have parking underneath. For one thing they arent going to run mom and pop stores out of downtown for there arent any that would be in direct competition to Wal-Mart. I would definitely like to see more local specialty stores downtown and those types of stores will not be in competition with Wal-Mart either.
One of the things that many on here have mentioned as being a positive for downtown would be diversity, specifically diversity of income. Lower income places to rent, obviously those people would work at lower income scales and need to buy inexpensive things. Higher income people will shop at higher end stores etc.
Big Box? Is Kinkos a big box store? Would you allow a Borders, Williams and Sonoma, Virgin Megastore? Sears, Neiman Marcus? Where do you draw the line? Only high end Big Box and no low end? Only small sized and not large sized Big Box stores? Weren't there "Big Box" type stores on Main Street back in its heyday?
Frankly if we get a real vibrant thriving downtown perhaps with all of those stores and dozens and dozens more. An urban style Wal-Mart would be just a tiny minor thing. It may seem like more of an issue at this time simply because there isn't much else down there, yet. I don't want to imagine a downtown that stays so small and lifeless that an urban Wal-Mart would be of any notice.
http://www.pps.org/info/newsletter/April_First_2004/april_first_2004_feature
http://www.vermontwalmartwatch.org/box_store_alternatives.html
Arteest....... your eye for art just took a nose dive...
"Wal-Mart would be just a tiny thing"
It is for certain that you know nothing of there "Internal Directive" in what they want to be earning 5 to 10 years from now...
Were you at all aware of the first assault of Wal-Mart on the East End..?
You put the "same package" in a designer suit and what do you have...?
The same "cr$pola" in a designer suit.
Best location I have heard of for Wally"...is what remains of the Neighborhood in between Promenade and Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond.........
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Arteest....... your eye for art just took a nose dive...
"Wal-Mart would be just a tiny thing"
It is for certain that you know nothing of there "Internal Directive" in what they want to be earning 5 to 10 years from now...
Were you at all aware of the first assault of Wal-Mart on the East End..?
You put the "same package" in a designer suit and what do you have...?
The same "cr$pola" in a designer suit.
Best location I have heard of for Wally"...is what remains of the Neighborhood in between Promenade and Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond.........
Great location! I am so burnt out on trying to remodel this danged thing. Take it from me pleeease lol.[:D]
Jumbo shrimp.
Working vacation.
Acting naturally.
Urban Wal-Mart.
The reason a grocery store hasn't built downtown is because of the lack of residents. The rooftops come first. So if Wal-Mart builds downtown, they'd be looking to draw from a pretty wide trade area. After the massive heavy lifting it took to get Albertson's to build a store at Pine and Peoria (about a mile and a half away from the east end), to have Wal-Mart come in would be counter-productive for that investment. Not to mention the adverse affect it would have on small downtown retailers present and future. Let's also keep in mind that the Wal-Mart demographic and the urban dweller demographic don't necessarily overlap. You probably won't find a singing fish hanging on the wall of a Philtower Loft.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
Jumbo shrimp.
Working vacation.
Acting naturally.
Urban Wal-Mart.
Tulsa nightlife.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Arteest....... your eye for art just took a nose dive...
"Wal-Mart would be just a tiny thing"
It is for certain that you know nothing of there "Internal Directive" in what they want to be earning 5 to 10 years from now...
Were you at all aware of the first assault of Wal-Mart on the East End..?
You put the "same package" in a designer suit and what do you have...?
The same "cr$pola" in a designer suit.
Best location I have heard of for Wally"...is what remains of the Neighborhood in between Promenade and Best Buy and Bed Bath and Beyond.........
One location was on the south side of 11th, facing home depot.
Few years ago a developer attempted to build a shopping mall type project on the South side of 11th street. We own a large building and two lots there.
No such luck, as either Downtown Tulsa Unlimted and or the INCOG planning commission bombed his idea as we were told.
Not sure of the exact reason, but his offer was very lucrative and we and many property owners in that area were not happy when he removed his offer.
The only example shown was in China, one of the most densely populated countries in the world...the other is a design.
I want solid examples Wal-Mart has done this and succeed before I ever trust them with this idea. Additionally, we should strive for local first.
But as Average Joe mentioned...you've got to get the residents first. Just ask Homeland.
I saw a Wal-Mart in downtown Long Beach, CA that was completely urbanized. I didn't even realize I was driving by a Wal-Mart at the time. It wasn't architecturally significant by any stretch, but it blended in nicely. I'll see if I can find a picture
Here's a link to the entire development in Long Beach. The Wal-Mart pic on the photos page is from inside the development. What I saw from the street was non-descript and blended in with its surroundings.
Long Beach CityPlace (//%22http://www.longbeachcityplace.com%22)
Why cant we require that they do something along these lines? Either we can stop them from building, or we cant. And if we cant then this conversation is stupid. If we can stop them then we can say, If you want to build downtown it must follow these rules...
http://www.ptvermont.org/St.Albans/stalbans.htm
WM is not a viable option for vitalizing DT. Minimum, it would remove space that could be used to create an incentive.
Long term, short term, urban facade or otherwise: plunking a WM down in the EE would be a desperate move in the wrong direction.
Say goodbye to anything chic, hip, or of substance, jdb
Wish list for a grocery store in DT...
1. Locally owned market with inexpensive stuff-- but that would take a miracle...
2. Trader Joe's.
3. Aldi.
4. WalMart Neighborhood Market.
5. Save A Lot.
.
.
.
.
.
.
96. WalMart Supercenter.
97. Target.
98. Reasors.
99. Warehouse Market.
100. Albertson's.
I tire of the shrill noises from the agenda-driven borderline cult known as the "Church of WE-HATE-WALMART"...
http://www.mindfully.org/Industry/2006/Wal-Mart-Movement16feb06.htm
http://charlotte.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A7565
The only reason I'm leary of a DT wal-mart is because I do not trust the local government to force Wal-mart into building anything "Urban". It'll end up looking like the 66th and Memorial Wal-Mart (which they probably thought they were doing us a favor by making it look "good" instead of like the typical blue supercenters)
Of course I think a DT wal-mart has always been the biggest nightmare of everyone on this forum.
But apparently Wal-mart has done their research and identified this as a potential site for a successful store. Other stores should take advantage of this and try to move in on it. I really like the idea of a Costco, if they would just enter the Tulsa market. Build their first store downtown, and I guarantee people would come from all over to shop there. Between the wal-mart haters who refuse to shop at WM and Sams, and the lack of stores for miles in every direction, there is no way a Costco (or any other chain that currently doesn't have a store in the Tulsa market) could fail.
I don't see how anyone could argue that a busy grocery store wouldn't be a catalyst for activity in the area tho. I wonder if this new developer actually has any master-plan for a real interconnected development like the original east end proposal tho. If he lets a big box megacenter with a huge parking lot build here, then he is just looking to cash in quick on his land holdings.
I still think with all these new Walmarts popping up that Tulsa is like some sort of sick experiment for the corporates at WM to see if they can completely take over an entire market and eliminate all competition. I think they're willing to spend a ton of money just to see if they can succeed. We probably have the largest per-capita Walmart proliferation of any metro area already.
Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...
A few years ago, WM was planning a Neighborhood Market at 41st and Harvard. The neighbors were invited to talk to the developers so that WM could "work together with the neighbors to give them what they wanted."
What WM wanted was to convert several residences into a massive surface parking lot. I asked if they would be willing to move the building to the street front, and to put all the parking in the rear. They acted like this was an impossibility (along the lines of filling in the Grand Canyon with gold nuggets). This radical idea would have required an entrance in the front AND the back, which "just wasn't feasible."
(Funny, it works on other stores in other cities. In Portland, OR, you park under the Safeway grocery store and take the elevator or stairs into the produce section...or you can walk in the front door from the street.)
I don't shop at Walmart, but if they could create a terrific urban design (No surface parking, no hideous parking garage, attractive/scaled design with shop front windows, etc, I would support it.)
I've read articles recently that indicate that the big-box stores (not the local merchants) are going to be in trouble as more and more people shop for generic items via the internet. When you have nothing special to offer, it doesn't matter who offers it. Meanwhile, local folks with unique offerings and personal customer service are better positioned, long-term, to survive a further increase in internet shopping. We'll see.
I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes. Are there any codes for downtown? Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes. Are there any codes for downtown? Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?
There aren't any design guidelines for downtown, but there should be.
The one bit of leverage the City would have is that if they wanted to build something bigger than about 42,000 square feet (1/2 block), they'd have to get the city council to vacate a street or alley. That's because most 300' by 300' blocks (although not all) are split in two by a 20' wide alley which is a public right of way.
One block that isn't split is the superblock across the street from McNellie's, between 1st, 2nd, Elgin and Greenwood. The only building is the old Santa Fe freight depot; the block was the Santa Fe freight yards. It is owned by the same John Williams from Claremore.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelBates
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I really don't care what store, large or small, goes downtown. As long as it fits the urban, walkable, thrust we want to happen there, I am fine with it. There can't be too much damage done to the north in the Brady district or to the East in the Pearl because of their zoning and form based codes. Are there any codes for downtown? Would there be any way of stopping a "traditional" WM from going in?
There aren't any design guidelines for downtown, but there should be.
The one bit of leverage the City would have is that if they wanted to build something bigger than about 42,000 square feet (1/2 block), they'd have to get the city council to vacate a street or alley. That's because most 300' by 300' blocks (although not all) are split in two by a 20' wide alley which is a public right of way.
One block that isn't split is the superblock across the street from McNellie's, between 1st, 2nd, Elgin and Greenwood. The only building is the old Santa Fe freight depot; the block was the Santa Fe freight yards. It is owned by the same John Williams from Claremore.
You and I are thinking the same things on this deal. Without leverage, not much the city can do, so hopefully this development will require a variance or a PUD.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...
edited You and JDB... I'll be moving back to a pragmatic city that values PROGRESS soon enough...
You going to take your ball and go home.....?
On another note I think a well done Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market downtown would be a great addition and a step in the right direction....
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Perhaps Walmart has turned over some new urban leaf (left-over designs from their failed attempts to assimilate the Germans?), but...
Watch it with the language. You and JDB... I'll be moving back to a pragmatic city that values PROGRESS soon enough...
Need some help packing?
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
You going to take your ball and go home.....?
that will depend on job and quality of life/education issues over anything posted on a website...
"Need some help packing?"LOL.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
You going to take your ball and go home.....?
that will depend on job and quality of life/education issues over anything posted on a website...
"Need some help packing?"
LOL.
Thought you'd enjoy that. [:D]
If you leave, be sure to stop by occasionally for some sparring.
Quote:
He said Nordam's contract with Williams still depends on winning certain concessions from the city, such as tax increment financing.
----------------------------------------------------------
Having seem a DT made up of small stores and people shoulder to shoulder like you see on TV when they are displaying the DT of other cities and seeing it today.
The above quote is the reason why we are so interested in establishing a mega store along with the luscious taxing district.
Then also they have already a bank charter so we will have another bank down town where the proven personal traffic gathers. One wonders if they will be bank competitive like they were to the mom and pop stores, staying open 24 hours daily. 24 hour banking?
I hope this is dependent upon Wal-Mart getting a TIF. Kill the TIF, it will stop this Wal-Mart. Downtown already has way too many TIFs, anyway.
Ever notice the sophistication level of wm shoppers and supporters are about the same?
Cheap junk for the consumers...Shirley, a worthwhile experience.
jdb
You might notice that when Wal-mart does well in an area, typically after about 5-7 years, they close the old store and build a new, bigger one. This has happened several times in Broken Arrow and Tulsa. Most times the old buildings sit empty for long periods of time. Sometimes, like at 71st and Riverside and at the traffic circle, they get re-used. It's hard to re-use a building that was built for a Wal-Mart. I don't suspect it would be any different in an "urbanized" Wal-Mart. If its larger than 40,000 square feet, you're going to have a hard time finding a replacement.
Jeff Shaw
Bounded Rationality (//%22http://boundrationality.blogspot.com%20%22)
quote:
Originally posted by ttown_jeff
You might notice that when Wal-mart does well in an area, typically after about 5-7 years, they close the old store and build a new, bigger one. This has happened several times in Broken Arrow and Tulsa. Most times the old buildings sit empty for long periods of time. Sometimes, like at 71st and Riverside and at the traffic circle, they get re-used. It's hard to re-use a building that was built for a Wal-Mart. I don't suspect it would be any different in an "urbanized" Wal-Mart. If its larger than 40,000 square feet, you're going to have a hard time finding a replacement.
Jeff Shaw
Bounded Rationality (//%22http://boundrationality.blogspot.com%20%22)
According to PBS, http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3_2.html, as of 2005, Wal-Mart had 390 empty stores, or apx.
25 million square feet of unoccupied space. Because of the typical size of a Wal-Mart and because they will not sell property to competing big-box stores, there is little to do with the buildings.
The one bright spot in the "World" article regarding Mister Williams..
Himelfarb was quoted as saying "any development plans for the East End would include relocating the Drillers to the area."
Not an exact quote... something along those lines...
Oh, I read an article in the Seattle Times a while ago... and yes it was about Wal-Mart improving their image..
I won't bore you with the full article but here is a clip and a photo.
CHIAKI TSUKUMO / AP
Cars are parked in front of Wal-Mart's jumbo store opened under the name of Seiyu, the U.S. retail giant's Japanese partner, in Numazu, about 60 miles southwest of Tokyo. Wal-Mart is hoping that trendier merchandise and a more appealing shopping environment boost sales this year.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Newstylewalmart.jpg)
You can tell that they fully understand that Japan is a very densely populated Country and have made rational use of every inch of the precious commodity of land in Japan.
I thought you were leaving, anyway, so what do you care? Don't let the door hit ya where evolution split ya.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Ever notice the sophistication level of wm shoppers and supporters are about the same?
Cheap junk for the consumers...Shirley, a worthwhile experience.
jdb
C'mon over to my place... I CHALLENGE you to find the difference between the stuff I bought at walmart versus the so-callled "quality" stuff I bought at IKEA...
Take the challenge... oh, how was Oslo???
It is the Tulsa Elitists, not evangelicals or rednecks, who have ruined tulsa.
http://www.rogerspark.com/
IKEA will come to downtown Tulsa...... er, uh..... the fourth of never...
Yeah.... but I don't think Ikea sells soccer balls do they..?
And if they did they make lousy coffee tables....
I think you are correct... Wal-Mart has been the catalyst for many Urban Developments across the USA....
blah, blah, blah...
if you don't like it, don't shop there...
if you want something else there, buy the land and build whatever you want...
for me this really comes down to zoning and codes... if we had some real form based zoning dt, that was complimentary to a walking urban environment (i.e. no asphalt sea), i could give a **** what business winds up there...
but since we don't we'll end up with another home depot (which i shop at nonetheless)...
i would not trust walmart further than i could throw them or we'll end up with another suburban store in the middle of downtown...
just ask the city boys about the bait and switch they got with the walmart market on peoria...
USR - I dont see your post's...swear I didn't ignore you. If it wasn't for rico's snip I wouldn't even know.
However, I am not about to crawl around heaps of sweaty sports gear to point out cheap junk bought in one of several places. Wish I could, the invitation caused many tingles - to be sure - but I must decline.
Olso was a while ago but it was steeped in history and exuded an intrinsic value. The trip I have been putting off is actually Zurick.
At present I am in Tucson, AZ. abusing my liver, big time.
XOXOX, jdb
AA - I thought we were kinda on the same side...what gives?
I would be in favor of designating the area an "urban zone" or some such nonsense, but we would do so at the risk of it sitting empty for another 30 years.
Also, the myth that Wal-Mart merchandise is any more crappy than most other stores is getting old. Time and again consumer reports studies have shown most of it even comes from the same factories. IKEA label - $300. Wal-Mart - $50.
Clearly this doesnt hold true for everything, but a rattler from wal-mart will do the same job as the one from BassPro...
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
USR - I dont see your post's...swear I didn't ignore you. If it wasn't for rico's snip I wouldn't even know.
However, I am not about to crawl around heaps of sweaty sports gear to point out cheap junk bought in one of several places. Wish I could, the invitation caused many tingles - to be sure - but I must decline.
Olso was a while ago but it was steeped in history and exuded an intrinsic value. The trip I have been putting off is actually Zurick.
At present I am in Tucson, AZ. abusing my liver, big time.
XOXOX, jdb
AA - I thought we were kinda on the same side...what gives?
Do you mean me? If it was about the post about leaving, that was in regards to the soccer guy. I guess he deleted his post. I guess I should have replied with his qoute, sorry for the confusion.
AA- Cool beans. I read the comment wrong.
I hereby apologize for my cheap shot at humor with the "smelly sports gear" crack.
Not being a box store shopper I wouldn't know anything about any of them other then the obvious, which I take exception with.
WM being the least symbiotic corp. on the planet.
I know, bemoaning the vanishing era of craftsmanship...but that's me. I do not value bargins bought on credit.
Anyway, until there is a hip population (demand), and like minded people - with money - willing to take a risk and set up shop any "urban zone" would flounder.
But that would come about with much less grief on fallow land then having a bad neighbor to contend with, no?
"30 years" is a high number used to make your point, right?
jdb
Originally posted by mister "hip, slick, and coool..."jdb[clip]
Anyway, until there is a hip population (demand), and like minded people - with money - willing to take a risk and set up shop any "urban zone" would flounder.
[-end clip]
Ding... Ding... Ding....
We have a winner........!
None other than the fellow that looks like a Cuban Policeman looking for one of those hand- rolled Cuban Deliciadados.............******!
The question was....
How does the fellow from Claremore rake together more scratch than Global Development Inc.....?
Best answer was....."I dunno maybe Bentonville Arkansas..."
The question is....?
Who is really in the driver seat...?
If you know the answer to this one....
the prize will be..... a room for two at the Spectacular Downtown Tulsa Arvest Inn....?
Runners up.... Will receive a Gourmet Flounder Dinner for two prepared tableside...!
[8D]
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
AA- Cool beans. I read the comment wrong.
I hereby apologize for my cheap shot at humor with the "smelly sports gear" crack.
Not being a box store shopper I wouldn't know anything about any of them other then the obvious, which I take exception with.
WM being the least symbiotic corp. on the planet.
I know, bemoaning the vanishing era of craftsmanship...but that's me. I do not value bargins bought on credit.
Anyway, until there is a hip population (demand), and like minded people - with money - willing to take a risk and set up shop any "urban zone" would flounder.
But that would come about with much less grief on fallow land then having a bad neighbor to contend with, no?
"30 years" is a high number used to make your point, right?
jdb
No sweat. We are definitely on the same page. Say Rico, "Big Daddy" Don Walker maybe?
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
The only reason I'm leary of a DT wal-mart is because I do not trust the local government to force Wal-mart into building anything "Urban". It'll end up looking like the 66th and Memorial Wal-Mart (which they probably thought they were doing us a favor by making it look "good" instead of like the typical blue supercenters)
I agree. It's quite a stretch to view Wal-Mart in an urban setting. I don't trust Wal-Mart to understand what an urban setting is. However, the "urban-designed" Wal-Mart concept is promising. I think a Neighborhood Market would be the best fit for the East End. Parking in back of the building is a must, and even then, there needs to be a buffer between the parking and surrounding landscape. I just hope they don't use the Home Depot as an example. If Wal-Mart is a part of a larger development plan, the city should make the TIF contingent on the developers' agreement to preserve urban walkable space and force Wal-Mart to comply.
Maybe it'll be an Urban Italianate a la Bumgarner in the Arvest disposable Dryvit style architechture. Tre chique.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I would be in favor of designating the area an "urban zone" or some such nonsense, but we would do so at the risk of it sitting empty for another 30 years.
Also, the myth that Wal-Mart merchandise is any more crappy than most other stores is getting old. Time and again consumer reports studies have shown most of it even comes from the same factories. IKEA label - $300. Wal-Mart - $50.
Clearly this doesnt hold true for everything, but a rattler from wal-mart will do the same job as the one from BassPro...
This is really going to start to annoy me if I hear a reference to the Wal-Mart Merchandise as the reason for them not being a good fit for the East End............
I really did not want to post my full laundry list of reasons so I guess one or two, that best fit, will do... and if not.. so be it.
The easiest way to make this point may be the following 2 short stories... so bear with me......
1. I have known for, 19 years the man that owned the finest Chinese restaurant Cherry Street ever had.
The following is an event that occurred at that Restaurant while it was still in operation.
Three middle Eastern Gentlemen came to the establishment for a late lunch / dinner...... They complimented the Owner for the ambiance of the interior and told him that they had heard his food was the finest there was to be had.. They were dressed in traditional Arabic, or one of those countries style clothing and obviously very wealthy.
They proceeded to have Appetizers... Drinks... samples of the more expensive offerings on the Entree portion of the menu... all of this taking several hours at a cost of over $200. dollars..
At this point the fellow that seemed to be the "decider" for the group called the owner aside and said..
"He understood that he was a worldly individual and appreciated the finer things there were to be had in the world. They were going to be in Tulsa for a while and were very, very pleased they had found his establishment."
He went on to say..."I have been in several countries over the past month but I would so much like to have a dish that our cook serves us in our country"
The owner thanked the Gentleman Saying he was honored to have he and his friends in his house and they were Welcome any time. Whatever dish they had in mind, if possible, he would have his Chef prepare...
It was then that the Gentleman pulled what seemed to be several thousand dollars from his pocket and said "All of this can be yours for the taking if you will arrange for me and my guest to dine on one our special dinners of fresh "Monkey Brains"...
The owner of the Restaurant appalled and somewhat sickened by this request replied he would not be able to provide them with that dish... as this was not something he served or cared to serve..
Noticeably upset by the restaurant owners reply the fellow said that " He had made a mistake in judging the character and reputation of the Restaurant and it's owner... He and his guests would be leaving."
They did so abruptly without paying one dime of what they owed.
2.One of my close friends worked at Home Depot for approximately 10 years... During most of the time he worked there it was still owned and operated by the two fellows that formed the company....
In approximately 2004 Home Depot's then CEO (Bob Nardelli) made it known that Home Depot was going to become the "Largest" Home Improvement chain in the whole world... They were going to have stores in every country in the world.. Even China and Russia..
He made this known as as part of an annual sort of report to the employees of the company..
After this time there were a certain number of rumors that came through the pipeline.. One; that they were going to be carrying certain building materials that were traditional in China such as Bamboo poles along with the usual 2X4s and other items etc...
According to information that came directly from the Regional Manager to my friend they, (Home Depot Corporate Level), were pricing the items from the local vendors... farmers... etc. So that when the Company made it's move they would have their price points geared to be able to undersell whoever the competition would turn out to be..
The point of these two stories is this....
1. Money can not and should not give one the means to behave however they choose to. Nor should it give you the power to move into a Community and install your Company as the Centerpiece of that Community..
All those that have responded to this article, and do not plan to do any more than the occasional visit to the "East End", should find something that will impact their lives to a greater degree and install a Wal-Mart in that.
2. Any Company that plans and forms strategy to eliminate all competition regardless of how small that competition may be... Is not going to be the fellow that you would like to see move in to an Urban Community of Artist, small business owners, and Citizens seeking that "Alternative Life Style" that defines Dense, Urban, Walkable, etc. Communities.
Several weeks ago Home Depot announced it's pick for the CEO of the Asian portion of it's business dealings.... With the opening of it's first store in China to happen sometime this year.
They will only be a "good fit" if people buy their stuff there. If they aren't a good fit, then they will fail. I don't think they would be any more the "centerpiece of the community" than Home Depot is considered to be one now. I have absolutely no desire to shop at Wal-Mart because they have nothing that I want. However, they recognize that there are different communities, not all their stores are alike. One of my friends told be about a store in the revitalizing downtown Fort Worth and one in Plano.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?f=00&g=8d88ee47-0cc8-4162-a61e-283ae30c9e35&p=Source_Today%20Show&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11957536/&fg=
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FNP/is_18_43/ai_n6211244
http://www.nbc5i.com/newsarchive/8161624/detail.html
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
They will only be a "good fit" if people buy their stuff there. If they aren't a good fit, then they will fail. I don't think they would be any more the "centerpiece of the community" than Home Depot is considered to be one now. I have absolutely no desire to shop at Wal-Mart because they have nothing that I want. However, they recognize that there are different communities, not all their stores are alike. One of my friends told be about a store in the revitalizing downtown Fort Worth and one in Plano.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm?f=00&g=8d88ee47-0cc8-4162-a61e-283ae30c9e35&p=Source_Today%20Show&t=m5&rf=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11957536/&fg=
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FNP/is_18_43/ai_n6211244
http://www.nbc5i.com/newsarchive/8161624/detail.html
A lot of the features of this store were put into the new 71st store. Wider aisles, cut-throughs, wood shelving and flooring in some areas, less clutter, sheetrock to the ceiling, etc, etc.
The original "Wal-Mart" was known as Walton's 5 and Dime, and was very compatible with the urban environment, as seen in this picture (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:09-02-06-OriginalWaltons.jpg%22)
Maybe Wal-Mart should bring back the "Walton's 5 and Dime" name for nostalgic-type stores in urban landscapes. They could provide many of the same products found in their traditional Wal-Marts, but market Walton's 5 and Dime as a select store. I think a nostalgic store could even add value to Wal-Mart's traditional every-day products in the eye of the consumer.
What does TulsaNow think? Is this a good idea or is it crap?
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
The original "Wal-Mart" was known as Walton's 5 and Dime, and was very compatible with the urban environment, as seen in this picture (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:09-02-06-OriginalWaltons.jpg%22)
Maybe Wal-Mart should bring back the "Walton's 5 and Dime" name for nostalgic-type stores in urban landscapes. They could provide many of the same products found in their traditional Wal-Marts, but market Walton's 5 and Dime as a select store. I think a nostalgic store could even add value to Wal-Mart's traditional every-day products in the eye of the consumer.
What does TulsaNow think? Is this a good idea or is it crap?
Hmmmm.. Walton's 5 and dime....?
Family Dollar......Hmmmmm
Dollar General.....Hmmmmm
I'll Pass. But geez the street people could get great deals on mouthwash.!
Rico, I read your post and I'm afraid I dont get what you're trying to say.
Is WalMart the Arabian men trying to force monkey brains on Tulsa? I understand that you cheer for the little guy and dont want them ruined by WalMart (or Home Depot) trying to make money, but exactly what small shops in the East End will be driven out anyway? For that matter, if there were shops in the East End shouldnt it be up to the people to decide which store does well and which store falters - or is telling people where to shop a proper role of government?
Not sure I follow your train of thought.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Rico, I read your post and I'm afraid I dont get what you're trying to say.
Is WalMart the Arabian men trying to force monkey brains on Tulsa? I understand that you cheer for the little guy and dont want them ruined by WalMart (or Home Depot) trying to make money, but exactly what small shops in the East End will be driven out anyway? For that matter, if there were shops in the East End shouldnt it be up to the people to decide which store does well and which store falters - or is telling people where to shop a proper role of government?
Not sure I follow your train of thought.
Hello Fodder,
I don't think a person such as yourself will ever be able to follow my thought pattern.... If you were, then I would be doing something wrong.
And No I don't think Government should be telling folks where to shop...
I also do not think that TIFF's should be given or created for the largest retailer in the world.
As to the story in regards to monkey brains....
I assume your lack of understanding, of the story, stems from the thought that money should dictate the action of others... In every circumstance..
But if that is not the case pm me and I will try to put it in terms that are easier to understand...
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
1. Money can not and should not give one the means to behave however they choose to. Nor should it give you the power to move into a Community and install your Company as the Centerpiece of that Community..
All those that have responded to this article, and do not plan to do any more than the occasional visit to the "East End", should find something that will impact their lives to a greater degree and install a Wal-Mart in that.
The only problem with your arguement is that you are pretending something of worth already exists in the East End. Like it is already some nice neighborhood that Wal-mart is going to level and take over. Right now it is a decrepit collection of run down warehouses, surface parking, weeds, miscellaneous rusty sh!t, etc...
I know you'll say I'm lacking vision, or settling for less, but the truth to many people is that right now that district is completely worthless. Perhaps a Wal-mart could be the catalyst to a not-quite-perfect but productive economic engine to help CREATE a core that we currently don't have downtown. If Wal-mart is the only one willing to risk kickstarting the area, that just seems to be the situation doesnt it? I'd prefer a kickstart over letting the area continue to rot like it is now.
Basically my point is that there is no "community" there now for Wal-mart to "take over". But it strikes a possibility of firing up new activity there.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
The original "Wal-Mart" was known as Walton's 5 and Dime, and was very compatible with the urban environment, as seen in this picture (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:09-02-06-OriginalWaltons.jpg%22)
Maybe Wal-Mart should bring back the "Walton's 5 and Dime" name for nostalgic-type stores in urban landscapes. They could provide many of the same products found in their traditional Wal-Marts, but market Walton's 5 and Dime as a select store. I think a nostalgic store could even add value to Wal-Mart's traditional every-day products in the eye of the consumer.
What does TulsaNow think? Is this a good idea or is it crap?
Nice idea, but I don't think Wal-mart is interested in doing specialty stores. The purpose of a Wal-mart is to be a one stop spot for people to buy everything they need in life. I think they sell everything but coffins there.
"Right now it is a decrepit collection of..."
Good thing all some people have controll of is their ill informed opinon.
jdb
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"Right now it is a decrepit collection of..."
Good thing all some people have controll of is their ill informed opinon.
jdb
I admit my description was based on memories of trips through the area. Just for you, I will do a drive-through tomorrow and update you with my current opinion. I'll eat humble pie if I see functioning society in the confines of the proposed East End area.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"Right now it is a decrepit collection of..."
Good thing all some people have controll of is their ill informed opinon.
jdb
I admit my description was based on memories of trips through the area. Just for you, I will do a drive-through tomorrow and update you with my current opinion. I'll eat humble pie if I see functioning society in the confines of the proposed East End area.
While you are trying to see "functioning society" you might check the recent Real Estate transactions and notice what everyone else has...
Land Value in the East End is through the roof..
Someone must feel that the area is worth something..
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"Right now it is a decrepit collection of..."
Good thing all some people have controll of is their ill informed opinon.
jdb
I admit my description was based on memories of trips through the area. Just for you, I will do a drive-through tomorrow and update you with my current opinion. I'll eat humble pie if I see functioning society in the confines of the proposed East End area.
While you are trying to see "functioning society" you might check the recent Real Estate transactions and notice what everyone else has...
Land Value in the East End is through the roof..
Someone must feel that the area is worth something..
Yea, I will believe it when I see something being built on those vacant lots. Right now I get the feeling I am seeing a rerun of property speculators trying to make a buck off their land from someone else, but who have never thought it was worth taking the risk to build on themselves. But here is hoping that something actually happens this time.
Senor Arteest
Actually what you are seeing are residents that have lived there but do not have the funds to build what needs to go there... That and also people building Dream Homes..
The fact that the long time residents and property owners are making a buck is irrelevant...
The GLBT have made an investment... And it appears they are quite Happy...
One must remember that Nordam owns the majority of the property..
They outgrew this land many years ago.. That and it is for sale as a package deal... This has held up investors from being able to jump in..
It would have been nice if the Nordam holdings could have been sold off individually...
But..... NOT TO WALLY WORLD.........!
p.s. money bags... put some money on the table for ttown jeffs market.......
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"Right now it is a decrepit collection of..."
Good thing all some people have controll of is their ill informed opinon.
jdb
I admit my description was based on memories of trips through the area. Just for you, I will do a drive-through tomorrow and update you with my current opinion. I'll eat humble pie if I see functioning society in the confines of the proposed East End area.
Gee JDB, sorry you couldn't come to the real
east end of Tulsa (aka "east of 169")... I had some nice cheap Australian Merlot (or was it Shiraz) for you... was 2003 a good year for a box of Franzia White Zinn? Don't have the money to go back to Europe anytime soon, so I guess I'll just have to be happy making a special trip to the downtown ATM across from Spirit Bank to check my balance... so I can listen to that vitual ATM teller with the lovely english accent...
Anyway, YT... you'll see a buncha reasonably busy bars/clubs.... a residential building or two... and little else that functions after 6pm...
Very little that remotely resembles an actual neighborhood.
It's like
walkable urbanity but it's missing that pesky
walkable part while charging trendy overpriced rents based on future development and idle speculation...
What exactly IS Tulsa getting with the Brady TIF district (set to expire, BTW) and the Blue Dome TIF district?... tax-sheltered subsidies to make the areas of Blue Dome/Brady into one end of a drinker's see-saw?... with Cherry Street and Brookside at the other end...???
The brady TIF was a mistake. It was instituted expect development that fell through.
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
It's like walkable urbanity but it's missing that pesky walkable part while charging trendy overpriced rents based on future development and idle speculation...
What exactly IS Tulsa getting with the Brady TIF district (set to expire, BTW) and the Blue Dome TIF district?... tax-sheltered subsidies to make the areas of Blue Dome/Brady into one end of a drinker's see-saw?... with Cherry Street and Brookside at the other end...???
The following is not directly aimed at you Rufnex... You have just provided a perfect example of something that I find annoying about the whole Development thing in Tulsa and on this Forum...
Many are like people that show up at a Party and bring nothing but their appetite for a Good Time... So in place of finding any fault in the fact that they truly came prepared just to consume mass quantities and Parteeeeee.... They cast stones at the host for the party being a drag..
That is IMHO the exact same thing as people that do not go Downtown Tulsa for any other reason than to check and see if all the work has been done for them and it is now as they wanted it to be...
They do not live their... They don't bother to see if they can help bring about a change for the better... They simply offer their critique and are on their merry way back to the burbs...
For the above reason I would like to see people that don't live Downtown, and never have any plans other than to take part in the Urban Community it will Become, please refrain from your off the cuff op-ed version of what you believe is happening...
Many on this Forum... many years back saw the wrecking ball aimed at the Tulsa Club and others.... We questioned where was the venture capital so badly needed to save many of these precious buildings..
This thankfully happened in the form of Maurice Kanbar... and I really don't care if this fellow takes ten years to develop all his property....
I am not going to whine about the fact that things are just not happening quick enough for me...
All of the things that are hoped for and worked for are going to become a reality Downtown.
And when the Party is open for business open up both barrels and fire all of the critique you can muster...
That is, if you have not spent it all, being oil slicks under the tires of change.
Rico, I don't think alot of the people potentially interested in moving to urban areas are looking for perfection... just a friggin grocery store for pete's sake... and it happens to be a big pet-peeve of mine to hear delusions of utopian splendor and over-romanticized concepts of
new urbanism posing as reasonable plans for urban development...
If a plan comes around the pike that involves an "anchor" for a TIF district that incldes a ballpark, or a soccer stadium, or a WalMart, or a Nordstrom's, or an IKEA, or a BassPro, or a Stillwater Natl Bank, or a
bigbox Temple to Athena... it'd be nice to find out the details first... before the self-appointed gate-keepers of downtown start with urbanesque well-worn dogmas on what
their downtown
should look like...
The suburban folks who are routinely maligned (by posters in this forum) all have kids who could very definitely move into Tulsa's "walkable urbanity" if it becomes available and affordable in the coming years/decades... and some of those suburban folks could themselves "move into town" to retire... but only if they feel welcomed rather than scorned by the local cliques who consider themselves socially superior while dining on that oh-so-tasty Tulsa sushi... hmmm, this is starting to sound like a retread of an S.E. Hinton novel...
If OSU-Tulsa had offered what I was looking for five years ago, I woulda moved close to DT back then even without the required grocery store and could have stayed in Tulsa... I suspect my situation was pretty typical among the many Tulsans who eventually became ex-Tulsans...
I heard horror stories in the 90s from young apprentice artists for Tulsa Opera who stayed around downtown-- one of them made the huge mistake of coming to Tulsa without a car...
The area around KOTV/Blue Dome has improved over the past 5 years... especially if you like bars and a smattering of entertainment (which drains people from Cherry Street/Brookside, btw), but....
It is not a neighborhood. Call part of it an
enclave if you want, or a
co-op... or call it a
microhood if you wish... but Tracy Park and Brady Heights are neighborhoods... the East Village-- scratch that-- the East End-- or whatever the realtors wanna call it next week, is not...
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Many are like people that show up at a Party and bring nothing but their appetite for a Good Time... So in place of finding any fault in the fact that they truly came prepared just to consume mass quantities and Parteeeeee.... They cast stones at the host for the party being a drag.
But this "party" has a hefty cover charge in the form of 15-year TIF district designations.
http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/things_tax_increment.html
So, if your so-called
party charges a cover and promises a live band, shouldn't we have the right to complain if the band is a no-show?
Gotta go... I'm going to a cool, hip oriental grocery store on 21st & Garnett to get a stir-fry pan. Then to 31st for some baba ganoush...
One man's tacky east Tulsa strip mall is another man's place to go for his favorite ethnic foods...
the real deal... [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Rico, I don't think alot of the people potentially interested in moving to urban areas are looking for perfection... just a friggin grocery store for pete's sake... and it happens to be a big pet-peeve of mine to hear delusions of utopian splendor and over-romanticized concepts of new urbanism posing as reasonable plans for urban development...
If a plan comes around the pike that involves an "anchor" for a TIF district that incldes a ballpark, or a soccer stadium, or a WalMart, or a Nordstrom's, or an IKEA, or a BassPro, or a Stillwater Natl Bank, or a bigbox Temple to Athena... it'd be nice to find out the details first... before the self-appointed gate-keepers of downtown start with urbanesque well-worn dogmas on what their downtown should look like...
The suburban folks who are routinely maligned (by posters in this forum) all have kids who could very definitely move into Tulsa's "walkable urbanity" if it becomes available and affordable in the coming years/decades... and some of those suburban folks could themselves "move into town" to retire... but only if they feel welcomed rather than scorned by the local cliques who consider themselves socially superior while dining on that oh-so-tasty Tulsa sushi... hmmm, this is starting to sound like a retread of an S.E. Hinton novel...
If OSU-Tulsa had offered what I was looking for five years ago, I woulda moved close to DT back then even without the required grocery store and could have stayed in Tulsa... I suspect my situation was pretty typical among the many Tulsans who eventually became ex-Tulsans...
I heard horror stories in the 90s from young apprentice artists for Tulsa Opera who stayed around downtown-- one of them made the huge mistake of coming to Tulsa without a car...
The area around KOTV/Blue Dome has improved over the past 5 years... especially if you like bars and a smattering of entertainment (which drains people from Cherry Street/Brookside, btw), but....
It is not a neighborhood. Call part of it an enclave if you want, or a co-op... or call it a microhood if you wish... but Tracy Park and Brady Heights are neighborhoods... the East Village-- scratch that-- the East End-- or whatever the realtors wanna call it next week, is not...
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Many are like people that show up at a Party and bring nothing but their appetite for a Good Time... So in place of finding any fault in the fact that they truly came prepared just to consume mass quantities and Parteeeeee.... They cast stones at the host for the party being a drag.
But this "party" has a hefty cover charge in the form of 15-year TIF district designations.
http://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org/things_tax_increment.html
So, if your so-called party charges a cover and promises a live band, shouldn't we have the right to complain if the band is a no-show?
Gotta go... I'm going to a cool, hip oriental grocery store on 21st & Garnett to get a stir-fry pan. Then to 31st for some baba ganoush...
One man's tacky east Tulsa strip mall is another man's place to go for his favorite ethnic foods... the real deal... [:P]
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/babakanoush.jpg)
Oh My..... Lets see "Gatekeeper", "Baba Kanoush", "Live Band", "Fish Head Store", "Jasmine Rice", "Real Deal" let's see....??? where do I begin to respond to one of your definitives..
Let me sleep on it and I'll give this more thought in the morning....
No where else in DT was better suited for a wacky, enclave of people doing there thing.
Everywhere else is clogged up, to expensive, or controlled by not so easy minded owners.
Strip malls are fine but they're everywhere. The EE, a mirco-hood, could have been a spot for something different.
Sucks, jdb
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
The question was....
How does the fellow from Claremore rake together more scratch than Global Development Inc.....?
Best answer was....."I dunno maybe Bentonville Arkansas..."
Another answer: Global Development never really had the
scratch to begin with... it was all based on rosy projections for positive outcomes in DC (Poplar Point soccer/mixed use), Richmond (mixed use/ballpark), Univ of Central Florida, Tulsa, Milwaukee, North Carolina (Research triangle/medical?)...
If Global had the
scratch as advertised in the fall of 2005, they would still own Major League Soccer's DC United, as well as act as landlord and lead investor for a 35% stake
(my educated guess) in the new Tulsa Roughnecks, and the shovels coulda hit the dirt months ago for this project... and yours truly would have been
as happy as a pig-in-a-poke... [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
The question is....?
Who is really in the driver seat...?
[8D]
After bowing out in Milwaukee last fall to concentrate on
"other projects," it's my guess that Global's running out of their own money while still using other people's money... And any of their investors still sticking around (at one time rumored to include Kuwaiti oil $$$) are probably running out of patience...
More fun with TIF'shttp://www.ncbg.org/tifs/tifs.htm
quote:
In the past few years, Tax Increment Financing has become Mayor Daley's favorite economic development tool. TIFs were originally intended as a targeted solution for the most distressed neighborhoods -- those parts of the City with little prospect of seeing any private development. Increasingly, TIFs are being used downtown and in the fast-growing neighborhoods surrounding the Loop. While TIFs may be a good tool for some areas, they are not a cure-all for all of Chicago's economic development problems........
.......Tax Increment Financing (TIF) is a special tool that the City of Chicago and other Illinois cities and towns can use to generate property tax dollars for economic development in specifically designated geographic areas. TIF allows the City to re-invest all new property tax dollars generated from the designated TIF district for a 23-year period. There are 130 TIF districts in Chicago, comprising nearly 30% of the land area of the City.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
The question was....
How does the fellow from Claremore rake together more scratch than Global Development Inc.....?
Best answer was....."I dunno maybe Bentonville Arkansas..."
Another answer: Global Development never really had the scratch to begin with... it was all based on rosy projections for positive outcomes in DC (Poplar Point soccer/mixed use), Richmond (mixed use/ballpark), Univ of Central Florida, Tulsa, Milwaukee, North Carolina (Research triangle/medical?)...
If Global had the scratch as advertised in the fall of 2005, they would still own Major League Soccer's DC United, as well as act as landlord and lead investor for a 35% stake (my educated guess) in the new Tulsa Roughnecks, and the shovels coulda hit the dirt months ago for this project... and yours truly would have been as happy as a pig-in-a-poke... [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
The question is....?
Who is really in the driver seat...?
[8D]
After bowing out in Milwaukee last fall to concentrate on "other projects," it's my guess that Global's running out of their own money while still using other people's money... And any of their investors still sticking around (at one time rumored to include Kuwaiti oil $$$) are probably running out of patience...
More fun with TIF's
http://www.ncbg.org/tifs/tifs.htm
quote:
In the past few years, Tax Increment Financing has become Mayor Daley's favorite economic development tool. TIFs were originally intended as a targeted solution for the most distressed neighborhoods -- those parts of the City with little prospect of seeing any private development. Increasingly, TIFs are being used downtown and in the fast-growing neighborhoods surrounding the Loop. While TIFs may be a good tool for some areas, they are not a cure-all for all of Chicago's economic development problems........
.......Tax Increment Financing (TIF) is a special tool that the City of Chicago and other Illinois cities and towns can use to generate property tax dollars for economic development in specifically designated geographic areas. TIF allows the City to re-invest all new property tax dollars generated from the designated TIF district for a 23-year period. There are 130 TIF districts in Chicago, comprising nearly 30% of the land area of the City.
The question was and still is.....
How does this fellow from Claremore rake together the scratch...?
He seems to have a certain special relation with a Real Estate wizzz Lady from Owasso...
But the real point of that post was...
Is Wal-Mart the money and the key person behind the entire deal...?
If so why not come out with it...? They are now Urban Friendly warm and fuzzy.... mended their ways... Upstanding citizens of the Corporate Community..aren't they...?
By the way Ruf... How does Wally World feel about soccer..? just kiddin...[}:)]
Rumor has it that Global Development closed on more property. Is their East End project showing twitches of life?
Heard exactly the same info..... Only thing I might add is the property they closed on is said to be sizeable....
"Wally" is feeling quite ill...... Unless that is all the whole Williiams flap was about was an attempt to sneak it in under the radar..
[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Rumor has it that Global Development closed on more property. Is their East End project showing twitches of life?
If they closed on anything it would be a positive. The seem to have a better looking plan.
It is time to get excited again. The East End development will change our downtown forever and new players are eagerly anticipated.
I hope that the ballpark is still planned.
LOL at this thread. It's like a hot girl left us for someone else, then all we could get a date with was a huge-donkey Wal-mart. Now the hot girl is stringing us along like she MIGHT be interested again but won't commmit a straight answer. But Wal-mart is always still waiting for us to call her back.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
It is time to get excited again. The East End development will change our downtown forever and new players are eagerly anticipated.
I hope that the ballpark is still planned.
I agree. GDP closed on a 48,000 square foot piece of land at 6th & Elgin. It's another piece of the puzzle.
The GM for the Drillers was on Channel 8 tonight at 10 talking about how positive a move downtown would be. First time I've heard him talk about it that publicly. Might be trying to salvage the plan, or it might be that the plan is coming together. Guess we'll find out...
Maybe I'm late on this, but what is the nature of the relationship between Global Development and specific properties in the East End? To they own many of them or have they obtained a rite of first refusal for some abandoned buildings?
What's the deal with the Claremore guy? Does he already have pending contracts to buy East End properties?
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Maybe I'm late on this, but what is the nature of the relationship between Global Development and specific properties in the East End? To they own many of them or have they obtained a rite of first refusal for some abandoned buildings?
What's the deal with the Claremore guy? Does he already have pending contracts to buy East End properties?
Theoretically they both have tentative contracts on the majority of the land but nordam was suing GDP for not closing on time.
I guess the clincher for which development group gets their way is going to be the Nordam property. Thats the property to keep your eye on.
I predict there are going to be more announcements coming soon for east downtown Tulsa. Hundreds of office jobs, entertainment, retail, housing, hotels...everything.
Things are happening very fast and I am excited about all the new possibilities.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I predict there are going to be more announcements coming soon for east downtown Tulsa. Hundreds of office jobs, entertainment, retail, housing, hotels...everything.
Things are happening very fast and I am excited about all the new possibilities.
i predict rm might have inside info...
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I guess the clincher for which development group gets their way is going to be the Nordam property. Thats the property to keep your eye on.
Nordam is a family business.. Run by the Siegfried's of Tulsa...
The founder, Ray Siegfried and his wife Millan, made Tulsa there home of choice..
Their children now are many of the principals of the Board of Directors and the Nordam Company.
I think Nordam will sell to Global if they make good on the penalties regarding their purchase agreement...
The members of the Nordam family, the Siegfrieds, and all of the employees of their company... have many children..Grand Children... What are kids going to like more...? the Global Ballpark or the Wal-Mart with the tacky swing out front..
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I predict there are going to be more announcements coming soon for east downtown Tulsa. Hundreds of office jobs, entertainment, retail, housing, hotels...everything.
Things are happening very fast and I am excited about all the new possibilities.
i predict rm might have inside info...
Psst... rm has been mobbed up for years.. careful what you say.[}:)]
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070315_1_A1_Twode47740
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Psst... rm has been mobbed up for years.. careful what you say.
[}:)]
All he has to do is pick up the phone and have you "recycled."
It looks like this East End thing has gotten fairly complex. No telling how this could go now. I just hope whatever is done down there tries to tie in to the Blue Dome District further North...it's too bad all of this is on the complete OPPOSITE side of Downtown as the arena, but maybe this will allow downtown as a whole to raise its image a notch and not just one area. Driving around today near the east side of DT, I saw a LOT of big empty parking lots....some of which aren't even going to be removed for the East End stuff. Like SW corner of 4th and Elgin, NW corner of 3rd and Detroit, and 2nd street from Elgin to Greenwood on the north side. Wow...these are entire city blocks being used for surface parking. Ugly as sin. Can someone buy these up and just build some nice 2 story, brick buildings in the sprit of creating an urban landscape?
"...Can someone buy these up and just build some nice 2 story, brick buildings in the sprit of creating an urban landscape?"
A few people did, with a few building...am guessing from your diction, what your saying is you won't be happy with anything less then an overnight sensation?
Or is impulsiveness just natural?
jdb
No don't misunderstand me...I know it's not realistic to see something "urban" in these spaces overnight. I guess I was just trying to emphasize how awful these spaces look now. Literally ANYTHING would look better than what is there now (okay well maybe except for a Towerview building)
IF, a large development project goes in on the East End with housing, business, retail, and a grocery store. Those other vacant lots and parking lots won't last too long. Thank goodness.
Still hoping and keeping my fingers crossed. But the markets have been a bit jittery. If too many mortgage lenders start heading south and take a lot of other risky investments with them in a domino effect. All this could vanish as these things have done before in Tulsa. The usual pattern is, rest of the country goes gangbusters then juuuuust as Tulsa starts to pick up steam and join the parade, everything crashes and we are left with what could have been. Its a race with the clock.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
IF, a large development project goes in on the East End with housing, business, retail, and a grocery store. Those other vacant lots and parking lots won't last too long. Thank goodness.
Still hoping and keeping my fingers crossed. But the markets have been a bit jittery. If too many mortgage lenders start heading south and take a lot of other risky investments with them in a domino effect. All this could vanish as these things have done before in Tulsa. The usual pattern is, rest of the country goes gangbusters then juuuuust as Tulsa starts to pick up steam and join the parade, everything crashes and we are left with what could have been. Its a race with the clock.
If you follow the markets you would know that this is already occuring ... credit in any form is disappearing and risk for everything is being repriced.
Ever asked yourself why this always occurs to Tulsa? I'll tell you what I think -- Tulsa seems to exist in some kind of time warp. As someone else on this board said -- "Tulsa is the land that time forgot"
Well alrighty, you have just hammered the nail just slighty off-centre and bent it over.
Easy to fix.
However, correcting this situation will require some time, design, and energy (usually in the form of currency, but not much in my example here).
Time will be shorter in duration (20 - 30 seconds?) due to not having to operate according to an area inside "city limits", leanding institution's, and/or Home Depot rules and options:
section 2 article 7,
To witt: No employee shall be answerable to the person who ordered 4K worth of custom siding that was ruined by the forklift "operator" and said owner want's to explain how dissappointing and awefull this situation is for everyone involved with the project.
Nope, how about we don't be the one to pick up a hammer and take on a project that they know will make them money, if not more - they might even build themselves a dream home by mistake.
If you've poured your heart out on a canvas and your lover looked and scowled would you be fair?
If you picked up a pile of trash on your sidewalk and then had the nieghbor call you a pig, would you mention your good deed?
Isn't there a respect quietly offered one who attempts such a project and suffers enough hardship's to fill a book, while having one hellva a good time, free from burb-comformity-routine, out of view from the long watchfull eye, rubbing proud blisters and aches - Omega Man on a Nirvana note?
I could go and but then everyone would wake up tommorow morning - late for work.
And then who would everyone talk to? Gasp!
Now returning you to the noraml line of posting - So easy, No pain, Anyone can do it! - and will continue my altered sabatical, (Hic, Burp, Fart, Giggle) jdb
"credit in any form is disappearing and risk...".
Wonderfull, a fellow Washington Post reader.
Cheers, jbd
this just in:
"By the way Ruf... How does Wally World feel about soccer..?" - rico.
Dear Rico Sir,
Does the above question directed at "Ruf" acknowlage said poster as the "Source" on the subject of soccer, or do you mean USRufex has an inside scoop on the working of a "N.R.T.S.A.V.O.I's"?
ribbet...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Michigan_J_Frog.png/180px-Michigan_J_Frog.png)
Metaphor for downtown Tulsa?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saU-Bl0feSs
Say, aren't we closing in on the 10 year anniversary of the Tulsa Project?
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Isn't there a respect quietly offered one who attempts such a project and suffers enough hardship's to fill a book, while having one hellva a good time, free from burb-comformity-routine, out of view from the long watchfull eye, rubbing proud blisters and aches - Omega Man on a Nirvana note?
Any successful enclave, co-op or microhood will invariably become a tragic victim of its own success... the
real deal is usually a moving target...
"...now snatch the pebble from my..."
"...a tragic victim..." USR
Yep, that's me and exactly why I am out here in Arizona, besides being on two wheels in winter, rolling my finacial dice for higher stakes, and three steps closer to that 40 footer.
Still, I wish it would have been different and will continue to spit at the moon of happiness from constant consumption.
Saw the Rangers vs. Chicago and Seattle last week. Sammy warmed up quickly.
New ball park in Surprise had a few empty seats.
Doubt the numbers will work for the Driller's in the EE without landing some big fish to capture a few whales.
jdb
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
ribbet...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Michigan_J_Frog.png/180px-Michigan_J_Frog.png)
Metaphor for downtown Tulsa?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saU-Bl0feSs
Say, aren't we closing in on the 10 year anniversary of the Tulsa Project?
Perfect lol. Some see a downtown that sings, but when the rest go to see the show all they ever get is a ribbit. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Well alrighty, you have just hammered the nail just slighty off-centre and bent it over.
Easy to fix.
However, correcting this situation will require some time, design, and energy (usually in the form of currency, but not much in my example here).
Time will be shorter in duration (20 - 30 seconds?) due to not having to operate according to an area inside "city limits", leanding institution's, and/or Home Depot rules and options:
section 2 article 7,
To witt: No employee shall be answerable to the person who ordered 4K worth of custom siding that was ruined by the forklift "operator" and said owner want's to explain how dissappointing and awefull this situation is for everyone involved with the project.
Nope, how about we don't be the one to pick up a hammer and take on a project that they know will make them money, if not more - they might even build themselves a dream home by mistake.
If you've poured your heart out on a canvas and your lover looked and scowled would you be fair?
If you picked up a pile of trash on your sidewalk and then had the nieghbor call you a pig, would you mention your good deed?
Isn't there a respect quietly offered one who attempts such a project and suffers enough hardship's to fill a book, while having one hellva a good time, free from burb-comformity-routine, out of view from the long watchfull eye, rubbing proud blisters and aches - Omega Man on a Nirvana note?
I could go and but then everyone would wake up tommorow morning - late for work.
And then who would everyone talk to? Gasp!
Now returning you to the noraml line of posting - So easy, No pain, Anyone can do it! - and will continue my altered sabatical, (Hic, Burp, Fart, Giggle) jdb
Its well known that the nexus for the time dilation and alternate universe effect is located at the "Center of the Universe" in downtown Tulsa. So no wonder we have problems. Oh and jdb you need to quit sleeping in the middle of that thing. [:P]