I was wondering what people's general take is on the increasing number of bums at street corners as the weather improves?
Bum: one who sponges off others and avoids work. A vagrant.
I know Tulsa is known and reputed for being a giving city. I see people handing these men (predominantly men) wads of bills, probably $5 on average. As I sat the other day at Ikes on Utica and 244 I watched one man collect from 5 or 6 different cars in the 45 minutes I was there. As I started to leave a white van pulled up and opened its door. He got in and another man got out... they traded the card bored sign and the van headed off. A shift change for god's sake!
When I worked downtown I was asked for money nearly everyday. "I just got out of prison and need money for a bus ride home." "I haven't eaten all day and need money for food." or my all time favorite a man who asked for $27 to get his prescription filled after an elaborate story. In all the instances above I offered to go with them and buy them a ticket, get something to eat, or fill the prescription (partly calling BS and partly because I dont carry cash). In every instance but one I was denied and they asked the person behind me (one man actually walked to the bus station with me and I bought him a ticket... for which he thanks me a great deal).
Likewise, in the rare instance that I was able to offer work to 'will work for food' I have had no takers. I worked for a lawn crew a couple summers in college and the foreman offered several times @ $50 for the remainder of the day with no takers.
I am of the opinion that most people panhandling are indeed bums and nothing more. Some of them are probably actual scam artists, others lazy and looking for a quick buick. Everyone knows the will work for food and elaborate stories you hear downtown are BS and Im tired of the "God Bless" signs at freeway exits. Am I a calloused, cold, heartless individual or... wait, dont answer that.
I was just wondering what everyone else's take is on this? If you give money, why? Is it out of a sincere belief that they need help or guilt or?
Just curious.
With the abundance of social services available in Tulsa there really is no need for anyone to ask for money.
Some are truly mental cases, I.E. the downtown screamer...and money won't do them any good either.
I worked downtown for quite a few years, and have heard every excuse in the book. I was approached by this lady who used to haunt the visitor parking lot at the Boulder Towers. She would drive around in her car and ask for money so she could buy gas to get back home on...the next time I saw here she was walking around our parking lot, and after asking me for money she asked me "Do I know you, you look familiar?" and I replied, "Yes, you asked me for money two weeks ago so that you could buy gas, I guess you haven't had much luck."
Why would you go do physical labor when you can make $20 to $30 an hour, tax free, panhandling?
I occasionally give to someone, but I've gotten pretty good at recognizing the pros and won't help them. If the story is too elaborate, or if they are missing half their teeth, weigh 70 pounds and covered in scabs, or unsteady on their feet- no go.
If it's obvious someone is an addict or drunk, I'm not going to be helping them any by giving them cash. They will feed their habit with my hard-earned cash.
Whenever I go to Arnies, I usually park in the back lot. About every-other time, I get hit up by someone looking for money around the corner on Elgin. Now when I see someone start to walk my way or make eye contact, I cut them off by asking if they can spot me ten bucks, they always turn around and walk off.
I was putting air in my tires @ when i was approached by a vagrant. She said she needed money for gas to get home to sand springs. i gave her $1. "dont you have more money? i really need gas to get home."
"hey if you dont want the dollar, i'll take it back right now" i say.
"no no no, i'll keep it." walks off doesnt say thank you or anything. depends on my mood if hand out cash. i felt generous that day, but &*#& that ungrateful attitude pissed me off.
quote:
Originally posted by grahambino
I was putting air in my tires @ when i was approached by a vagrant. She said she needed money for gas to get home to sand springs. i gave her $1. "dont you have more money? i really need gas to get home."
"hey if you dont want the dollar, i'll take it back right now" i say.
"no no no, i'll keep it." walks off doesnt say thank you or anything. depends on my mood if hand out cash. i felt generous that day, but &*#& that ungrateful attitude pissed me off.
Well, we're going to be popular around here! I haven't given in years. Sometimes I will buy food if they are hungry and will walk to a nearby fast food. Once I gave a guy a few bucks because I appreciate a good sales presentation. His was excellent and I told him so.
I almost cried when a woman sent her young child up to beg money from me for his crack addicted mom a mere twenty steps away. He was old enough to know (about 7 or 8) and obviously had done it many times before.
On a grander scale, well meaning churches downtown encourage this behavior. It makes them feel like they are following scripture. I disagree.
So here comes the brickbats.
I gave a guy asking for gas money some change. He was carrying a gas can, so it was convincing enough. I gave a guy in chicago a decent amount once because he had a well-versed story about being a professional basketball player who picked up a woman at a bar and got slipped rohipnol and had his wallet stolen. The 10 minutes it took him to tell the story was like TV for me. I've also given a guy downtown a ride to the bus station before.
The shift change always makes me laugh. The real professional bums I'll occasionally give food too but that is it.
Protestants tend to believe that if they just work hard enough they'll work their way into heaven. Or, if they just scrub hard enough they can remove every imperfection from their lives. But God rains misfortune on the wicked and the just. That means misfortune is random. Misfortune is not earned. I've seen highflying attorneys end up on the street. I've seen old ladies sleeping on the street in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known.
Come on Cannon Fodder are you really so cheap you can't cut loose of some change.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Protestants tend to believe that if they just work hard enough they'll work their way into heaven. Or, if they just scrub hard enough they can remove every imperfection from their lives. But God rains misfortune on the wicked and the just. That means misfortune is random. Misfortune is not earned. I've seen highflying attorneys end up on the street. I've seen old ladies sleeping on the street in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known.
Come on Cannon Fodder are you really so cheap you can't cut loose of some change.
So, HT, do you give at every opportunity? Or do you keep your window rolled up and stare straight ahead?
I thought scrubbing hard enough to remove imperfections was a Jewish concept.
I had a guy approach me at Home Depot...He had some brand new small lap blankets still in the package....He was already in the act of badgering a women when he threw the packaged blanket at me and told me to give him 15 dollars...I threw it back at him a said I was not interested nor did I have any cash....He then proceeded to tell me that I did have the money, which I again told him the same thing...He then told me that I needed to write him a check.....This almost got ugly but I decided to get in my car and drive off....I should have done the right thing and notified HD management and called the police....But I have been hit up many times over the years and a few times I bought into the sob story and ended up giving some money a couple of times it was 20 dollars but anymore I just say no...Or avoid the begger.....
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
But God rains misfortune on the wicked and the just. That means misfortune is random. Misfortune is not earned.
Would you please direct me to the part of your Bible that this comes from? I think you have the quote wrong Rev. Lovejoy...
Twice in the past two weeks, I was approached by people wanting gas money at the 45th & Peoria Quiktrip. The first guy drove his rusty subaru right up to the gas pump and immediately walked right to me asking for gas money. They're getting inventive or maybe its ok to ask for handouts regardless of financial status.
Wouldn't surprise me to soon see Hummer drivers begging for change at the gas islands.
quote:
Originally posted by Breadburner
I had a guy approach me at Home Depot...He had some brand new small lap blankets still in the package....He was already in the act of badgering a women when he threw the packaged blanket at me and told me to give him 15 dollars...I threw it back at him a said I was not interested nor did I have any cash....He then proceeded to tell me that I did have the money, which I again told him the same thing...He then told me that I needed to write him a check.....This almost got ugly but I decided to get in my car and drive off....I should have done the right thing and notified HD management and called the police....But I have been hit up many times over the years and a few times I bought into the sob story and ended up giving some money a couple of times it was 20 dollars but anymore I just say no...Or avoid the begger.....
That is what a concealed-carry permit is for. The sound of jacking a shell in the chamber is a pretty good deterrent for aggressive bums. [;)]
I was approaced by a couple in Waco, Texas who's story was the trying to make it to OKC tale.
What was even more interesting was when they wound up in one of our shops near 21st and Garnett about 4 days later with the same story.
Must of taken the wrong highway from Waco and missed OKC completly as they were asking for funding to make it to OKC.
How strange is that?
There is a man that always starts his tale with "I am not a bum" Gota love that one. He and a friend in a small compact car worked the Quik Trip lot at 145th and Admiral for a few weeks. His story was he was trying to get gas money to make it to Miami, Oklahoma. He resembles Dennis Hopper and there was a building used in the Movie Rumble Fish with a scene in it featuring Dennis Hopper I believe.
Him being near that location was just as strange as the couple from Waco crossing my path twice.
Twilight Zone music begins to play....
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
I was approaced by a couple in Waco, Texas who's story was the trying to make it to OKC tale.
What was even more interesting was when they wound up in one of our shops near 21st and Garnett about 4 days later with the same story.
Must of taken the wrong highway from Waco and missed OKC completly as they were asking for funding to make it to OKC.
How strange is that?
There is a man that always starts his tale with "I am not a bum" Gota love that one. He and a friend in a small compact car worked the Quik Trip lot at 145th and Admiral for a few weeks. His story was he was trying to get gas money to make it to Miami, Oklahoma. He resembles Dennis Hopper and there was a building used in the Movie Rumble Fish with a scene in it featuring Dennis Hopper I believe.
Him being near that location was just as strange as the couple from Waco crossing my path twice.
Twilight Zone music begins to play....
Seen em' he hangs out at the 21st and Harvard QT as well.
Maybe we should have a bum watch thread. Like a speed trap warning thread....
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
I was approaced by a couple in Waco, Texas who's story was the trying to make it to OKC tale.
What was even more interesting was when they wound up in one of our shops near 21st and Garnett about 4 days later with the same story.
Must of taken the wrong highway from Waco and missed OKC completly as they were asking for funding to make it to OKC.
How strange is that?
There is a man that always starts his tale with "I am not a bum" Gota love that one. He and a friend in a small compact car worked the Quik Trip lot at 145th and Admiral for a few weeks. His story was he was trying to get gas money to make it to Miami, Oklahoma. He resembles Dennis Hopper and there was a building used in the Movie Rumble Fish with a scene in it featuring Dennis Hopper I believe.
Him being near that location was just as strange as the couple from Waco crossing my path twice.
Twilight Zone music begins to play....
Seen em' he hangs out at the 21st and Harvard QT as well.
Maybe we should have a bum watch thread. Like a speed trap warning thread....
Add 11th street across from Skelly Stadium to his usual haunts, he's hit me up twice, sez he's trying to get to Stillwater.
(http://steadfast.tripod.com/homeless.jpg)
(http://www.abefastcash.com/images/funny/homeless.jpg)
Well. So much for keeping lunch down.[:(!]
the guy with the thong is "leslie"
he's apparently quite famous among Austinites. he's ran for mayor a few times.
I saw him cruising around town on his bike towing his sign one night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Cochran
edit: added url
It's the billionnares that ran off with your lunch, folks. But that's okay, right. Just the natural order.
It looks to me like a good deal of Tulsa is a pay check or two away from the street. And Okies were the original homeless. Grapes of Wrath, et cetera. I read it in the Tulsa World, "Oklahoma is a poor state."
He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
Conan, Sometimes I give and sometimes I don't. But I don't sit around with my well off friends making snide remarks about people that have hit upon hard times (unless we're discussing Republicans).
Anyway, I'm reminded of the homeless man sitting outside the train station, greeting the workers every morning, calling out to them as they exited the station, yelling, "Hurry, hurry."
Being a paycheck or two away from being on the streets...Most of them are a paycheck or two away from being off the streets but choose to not do so.
Yes bad things happen but good things happen as well. Most of these chronically homeless or the "usual beggars" are the ones who either have drug or mental problems or are just bums.
Yes bad things happen but so do good things.
There are so many good programs, churches etc. that are out there to help those who have hit a rough patch and are willing to help themselves. People can find help from proper organizations and charities and not be on the corner with a sign begging. If they are doing that it just tells you that they don't really want to do the right thing or they have mental or drug problems, and in that case giving them money is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give cash to them directly.
But if you feel you must give to that person...If they need food buy them some food, a ride, give them a ride, gas, buy the gas for them. That way you will know you are either doing the right thing for someone truly in need or will not further harm someone who is pulling a scam or being a bum for they would be getting nothing more than food or gas. If everyone did that then we wouldn't have the problems like we have.
When I had some tough times in my life and had NOTHING. Slept in an old abandoned home with half a roof, on the floor. Would clean up at work or in a gas station bathroom. I found that there were sooo many people that were willing to help. I never required or needed any cash. When I had saved up enough to pay enough for first months rent on a trailer, the waitresses and people where I worked came the next day with blankets, pots and pans all kinds of things. So many kind generous people out there. Standing on a corner with a sign, walking around the streets downtown, not getting a dime from me, you know its a scam.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give to them directly.
I can kind of swallow everything else you wrote but this remark is off base. Different strokes, Artist. People give for a lot of reasons. They don't have to be the same ones you would.
Don't give money to these people! Being a police officer, I deal with them on a regular basis. They fall into one of two categories:
1. Scams - the most popular. The vast majority are not homeless. Someone mentioned they make $20-$30 an hour. That is way too low. I had one of those guys tell me his best was $1000 in one hour, with close to $50-$100 an hour as typical. I know one of them who drives in from his home in Broken Arrow, parks his car around the corner, gets out his sign, sets up on the corner of an expressway exit ramp and starts 'signing' (that's what they call it). The people begging for gas are also a scam. Those who use the gas can get the most money, but they're still scamming. There is an older guy who hangs out at 15th and Lewis scamming for gas, with can can in hand....... for his new Cadillac!
2. Alcoholics - This group doesn't want work or food. They want booze. Don't give them money thinking they are going to go buy food, because they won't. They go straight to the liquor store. You want to help them, hand them a bottle of booze, because it is the same thing as handing them money. Saves them a trip if you'll just go get the bottle for them.
Please don't give money to these folks. You only encourage them to come back.
I would give money to the homeless if they just had an address to send the check to.
Just kidding.
I said no to a homeless guy in San Francisco who responded by saying "I hope you die soon". I am rarely at a loss for words, but he got me.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Either way its lazy, irresponsible and immoral for someone to give to them directly.
I can kind of swallow everything else you wrote but this remark is off base. Different strokes, Artist. People give for a lot of reasons. They don't have to be the same ones you would.
Yes, I am sorry that was a bit harsh. Its just a frustrating topic sometimes. It really seemsto me, that what these people are doing, good intentioned it may be, is actually hurting people. And it gets my dander up if I am not in my best fame of mind.
To explain why I think some kinds of giving are wrong, well I would have to explain my religious belief or moral compass So here in a nutshell, is kind of the "highly logical analytical persons" way of looking at religion, so if you dont want to be bothered with that kind of topic just ignore what follows lol.
To me; God is Love, Wisdom, Knowlege, Good, Beauty, and Life. Notice I capitalize each word.
If you were reading something and it went.... "and then He said" in this context you would know that you could take out He and insert God. Also if it said..."and then He said build your house upon the rock not upon the sand." You could take out He an insert Knowlege or Wisdom. "and Knowlege said, build your house upon the rock not upon the sand."
Its like those word problems in high school. The sentences are logical statements and can be translated into mathematical equations. See what happens when you let a science nerd read a bible lol.[:P] They either throw it out the window or turn it into an equation.
If X is = 10 and then you find out that 10 = ab you then know that ab = X. They are each different ways of expressing the same thing.
So stating the above, what then would be the difference then between love and Love?
Love has within it, or is equal to, Knowlege, Wisdom, Beauty, Good, etc. "love" with a lower case l is not, its missing those components.
I saw a news show where there was this lady whose daughter was sick and they were trying to get her to the hospital. The girl was so fat the couldn't get her out of the building they were living in but had to tear out a window and take her out that way. When asked why she had fed her so much the mom replied "She (the daughter) wanted the food and I gave it to her because I love her and I wanted her to be happy. That is an example of love without Wisdom or Knowlege. A person in an abusive relationship may say they love the person, but its not a Godly Love because it does not contain beauty.
I was watching a science show. The scientists were talking about looking for the "equation of everything". You know why he said they knew they hadn't found it yet? He said we will know it because it will be Beautiful. Emc2 is a beautiful and perfect equation. So even here the purest form of Knowlege or Science follows the same rules (Knowlege is Science so in one form you could say that God is Science, but I digress lol) They are one and the same, just a different way of expressing the same thing. Each different expression contains within it the others and without the others it is not "God".
Soooo, if the logic holds, in order to be Good to someone you must do so with Knowlege and Wisdom etc. For all the giving or loving in the world without some component of the others is folly. All the knowlege in the world without Love or Goodness is wrong. "the evil scientist cliche" If I am at my best and searching for an answer, to ask God, would for me translate into. "What does Love tell me? and Knowlege tell me? Wisdom? Goodness? Science, Beauty? The more I have of each of those the more correct I can hope the answer to be. The more one listens to All of those things, the clearer one is to "hearing Gods voice". The more you have of those things in your life, the closer you are to God. etc. etc.
So then, to me, to give without Wisdom and Knowlege etc. would not right or moral.
Such giving can do more harm than Good.
Again sorry for the rant. What I said in the earlier post I still think is, right. It just wasn't said with much Wisdom or Beauty [;)]
I understand your philosophy. I do make eye contact with these guys and they know I'm not a good prospect. Besides, I'm poorer than they are.
Artist you just said you were the recipient of handouts. You got lucky Artist.
Sometimes I'm asking life for something and someone will ask me for something and I respond.
I like to live with a generous spirit. Sounds kind of hokey but the more I give the more I find I have to give.
There was a Black woman wandering around our neighborhood today asking people for $9. After she stopped at our house and our neighbor's house the police pulled up and took her away.
Anyway folks, this stuff wasn't an issue during the Roosevelt era. We had a safety net then that is apparently no longer there. I actually remember when there were no homeless people save a handful of hobos and winos.
Remember the local F***K the Homeless Campaign. It made national news. I think I'm beginning to see a pattern.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Artist you just said you were the recipient of handouts. You got lucky Artist.
Sometimes I'm asking life for something and someone will ask me for something and I respond.
I like to live with a generous spirit. Sounds kind of hokey but the more I give the more I find I have to give.
There was a Black woman wandering around our neighborhood today asking people for $9. After she stopped at our house and our neighbor's house the police pulled up and took her away.
Anyway, folks this stuff wasn't an issue during the Roosevelt era. We had a safety net then that is apparently no longer there. I actually remember when there were no homeless people save a handful of hobos and winos.
Handouts aren't wrong its how, when, and in what context they are given that matters.
I give much and try to do the right thing by people. I have let people stay in my home in order to give them a chance to try and get on their feet. But there were conditions, they had to be working and trying to get to a situation where they could rent their own place. I Have even offered to pay for some peoples education, with the condition they make passing grades and keep working. You would be amazed at how some people can't manage these basic conditions.
When someone is wrongly asking for help, then such help given is wrongly given.
We arent talking about people who are doing the right things and just happen to run into a bad spat of luck. That can happen to anyone. And if all it is, is a bad spat of luck or even the result of a bad descision,(for we all make those from time to time) then doing what they were doing before will get them back to where they were before. For if they were doing whats right, and trying to better themselves, helping such a person get back on their feet with a "handout" could be fine. But again I wouldn't give anyone cash.
Its like giving a kid an allowance for not doing anything. You don't give adults money for not doing anything either.
If your child fails at a task, or doesn't do his chores, you still feed them and cloth them etc. but you don't
give them cash. If they want cash or more than the basics, then they have to earn it somehow, by either bettering themselves or by working for it.
These people we are talking about aren't working or trying to better themselves. There are programs and charities that can give them a roof, food and clothing, and a chance to get a job and get back on their feet. Giving them cash will not incentivise them to stay at these programs or incentivise them to work or better themselves.
I would like to see you take someone in who has had some bad luck. Put them up in your home, buy their food, even some clothes. Drive them to job interviews and work. (I have done all of that for a number of different people.) But, then if they dont work and are sitting around your house all day. You going to give them some cash if they ask for it? I mean whats wrong with a handout right? If someone was down on their luck and sitting around your house not trying or working, I bet you wouldnt give them money. And then how would you feel if other people came buy and kept giving that person cash because they were asking for it?
If you wouldnt do it in that situation why would you do the same thing in a smilar situation?
If a person has access to food clothing and shelter from charities and organizations but still just sits around the city not doing anything. Why is it then ok to give them cash?
You are probably too young to remember this, but before the 1980s many of the people you see on the street would have been in Vinita State Hospital where they got three meals, medical attention and a bath and a place to sleep.
And of course there are people you have run into a string of bad luck. Where do you think they go when you don't help? I have spent most of my life in San Francisco and I can tell you that on a regular basis the rejects from the rest of the country wash up on San Francisco's door step. We could tell what part of the country was going through bad times by who was showing up. And Oklahoma has had plenty of bad times over the past 30 years.
You'd see a family in a beat up old car with Oklahoma plates, kids and all possessions in the back, parked in an industrial part of town, obviously living in the car. California has caught other states buying bus tickets for their indigents to send them there.
They would apply for welfare and food stamps and the city would give them an immediate $300 check and emergency food stamps and then a monthly check after that.
Many of the hard luck stories would rotate out of the homeless population. The mental cases didn't.
So it's okay for you to receive handouts. That reminds me of the Protestant belief that God rewards good behavior with money.
When I see someone in a Jaguar I think, who did they have to kill to get that.
quote:
When I see someone in a Jaguar I think, who did they have to kill to get that.
What a nice cyical, and ignorant viewpoint...Some people actually invest enormous amounts of time and energy into educating themselves and their heart and soul into creating buisnesses that are prosperous. Did you bother to watch
The Pursuit of Happyness? You'd probably call him a traitor if you saw him driving down the street...[xx(]
quote:
He makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
Yes, and you misinterpreted that and twisted it to make it say what you wanted it to say....what about that quote makes you think that he rains injustice down on people?
I hate it when people quote the Bible, even more so when they manipulate it.
quote:
I have spent most of my life in San Francisco
Really? I could have NEVER guess that!
A majority of the homeless are chronically mentally ill, with a majority of those from good homes. A solid 30% were raised in foster andor group homes.
Having worked with the mentally ill homeless for years, the combined effects of medication and sobriety are awesome. I have known folk that were as psychotic as anything and one would think 'no chance,' but with time and good case management they stabilize.
The best thing to do downtown is to have some chump change handy, never open one's purse or wallet, do not pick a fight, and do not get cornered.
I produced a video on this subject. It's called: Panhandlers Extreme (//%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHVcPGzpKsM%22)(http://sjl-static15.sjl.youtube.com/vi/wHVcPGzpKsM/2.jpg)
cheers,
Random
Its always at Quiktrip where I get hit up by panhandlers.
Most, like the Police Office mentioned, are professonial scammers.
One guy pulled up behind me at the pump and gave this elaborate story about how he was in town to visit his son at college, but he didn't have enough gas money to get back home to Arkansas. That was a great 'my offspring are trying to be like you' story.
Another guy pulled up to me at midnight while I was pumping gas! Now, I'm a concealed weapon license holder, and proceeded to reach into my pocket and hold onto the grip of my Kel-Tek .32, as this idiot tells me that he's not a panhandler, but that his wife kicked him out of the house and he would like some cash to get some Wendy's.
Then, low and behold a 2nd panhandler tries the same thing at a different Quiktrip after midnight, (which really ticks me off because that makes me nervous to be approached by a stranger that late at night) and this guy is driving a decent-looking truck, and is obviously well-fed (he was quite overweight). I cut him off mid-story and told him "Nope," because I've already heard that crapt, and it's all B.S. He gave me an angry look, and I stared him down with "I'm going to kill you" written in my eyes, and he slowly drove off.
Sometimes you have to follow your heart, but most of the panhandlers around here are scammers, and they take advantage of people's need to feel like they are giving back to society.
Oh, and I've also met the guy who walks around with the gas cannister, if you gave to that guy, you got scammed again, unless of course, it was halloween, because all that gas can is--is a costume. Part of the ploy.
But hey, its not just downtown where this stuff happens! Its everywhere. South tulsa Quiktrips are the heaviest spot for it, IMO.
That's the oldest trick in the book, running out of gas money. How many people would drive far away from home and forget to bring gas money? Then they say they left their ATM card at home or the girlfriend has the ATM card and she's no where to be found. For Every helpful answer you try and give these guys they have an excuse on why it won't work and they need your hand out. Lugging around a gas can and a outta state drivers license is not new.That stuff is called "The tools of the trade"
Many people confuse a string of poor decisions with bad luck because they refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. To them, their problems are always someone else's fault. That is the cornerstone belief of just about every addict and alcoholic. That also extends on to people who blame their own lack of ambition on the government for their low paying job, or lack or any job. Poor work ethic is no one's fault but your own.
Call me a cold hearless bastard, I see myself as a pragmatist and realist.
I would go on in detail about my own hard life and times of being near destitute, but that will just veer this subject off into a big d!@* contest. Those times were due to my choices and not someone else's fault, nor the result of a poor local or national economy.
I have lost a house to foreclosure in the past. It wasn't the big mean bank's fault nor a sagging economy- it was my own personal choices which put me in that position.
I don't know what hard-core homelessness is but I have lived in less than stellar living conditions, I have been two weeks away from having any foreseeable income, with $10 in my pocket, and very little in the cupboard. I've always been willing to help friends through hard times, and so at the times when I needed help, I would call in a chip.
The reason people were willing to help me is because they knew I was headed in the right direction, I wasn't lazy, and that I would always be willing to repay a favor when needed.
My definition of a hand-out is something that keeps someone on the ground. My definition of a hand-up is helping someone up one more rung on the ladder when they are trying to get up the ladder on their own. (Whoops, IP, hand ME the shampoo).
You aren't doing anyone favors with hand-outs, just prolonging a miserable existence. As long as people think they can have things for free, they will continue to do nothing to earn a better life.
We have a very similar situation with one of my grown step-children right now, but I'll save that long dissertation for another time. Just suffice to say that she is doing very little to help herself and is expecting everyone else to hand her an easy life. It's not going over very well with her mother.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Many people confuse a string of poor decisions with bad luck because they refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. To them, their problems are always someone else's fault. That is the cornerstone belief of just about every addict and alcoholic. That also extends on to people who blame their own lack of ambition on the government for their low paying job, or lack or any job. Poor work ethic is no one's fault but your own.
Call me a cold hearless bastard, I see myself as a pragmatist and realist.
I would go on in detail about my own hard life and times of being near destitute, but that will just veer this subject off into a big d!@* contest. Those times were due to my choices and not someone else's fault, nor the result of a poor local or national economy.
I have lost a house to foreclosure in the past. It wasn't the big mean bank's fault nor a sagging economy- it was my own personal choices which put me in that position.
I don't know what hard-core homelessness is but I have lived in less than stellar living conditions, I have been two weeks away from having any foreseeable income, with $10 in my pocket, and very little in the cupboard. I've always been willing to help friends through hard times, and so at the times when I needed help, I would call in a chip.
The reason people were willing to help me is because they knew I was headed in the right direction, I wasn't lazy, and that I would always be willing to repay a favor when needed.
My definition of a hand-out is something that keeps someone on the ground. My definition of a hand-up is helping someone up one more rung on the ladder when they are trying to get up the ladder on their own. (Whoops, IP, hand ME the shampoo).
You aren't doing anyone favors with hand-outs, just prolonging a miserable existence. As long as people think they can have things for free, they will continue to do nothing to earn a better life.
We have a very similar situation with one of my grown step-children right now, but I'll save that long dissertation for another time. Just suffice to say that she is doing very little to help herself and is expecting everyone else to hand her an easy life. It's not going over very well with her mother.
What's the old adage,
give a man a fish... What I really object to are those people who knowingly prolong other people's misery by creating social dependents with hopes that it may score them feel good points or even worse, votes.
Social services abound in this city. If they are truly in need there are places to go and people to take care of them...
No one NEEDS cash to survive in this town if you're truly in need. Food and shelter can be found if that's what they are truly looking for.
You are something else with that hand on the gun, Hawkins.
Let's face it; no one's going to ask for your voting record if they want that dollar bill in your pocket. They don't care what I've spent my life doing. They just want my dollar bill.
First thing you learn in the big city is don't make eye contact, look like you know where you are going and don't slow down. My first response to most panhandlers, and I'll interrupt their stories right away to say this, "I don't have any money."
Surviving New York meant having a dumpy old overcoat you could throw over your outfit, never wearing jewelry and if you carry anything, make it a 5&10 shopping bag.
I just love Republicans. They gut education. They gut the safety net. They debase the middle and working classes, and when the predicable outcome happens, they moralize about the people they beat down. All this so they can hang onto some change. Their greed is killing us.
We've had 30 years of ascendancy of the Republican Party in this country and Hawkins I'll tell you this much, before the Republicans took over you never got panhandled at South Tulsa Quick Trips. I grew up in South Tulsa and the corner store was a Get & Go and I never got panhandled once.
Oh wait, I forgot the hippy panhandlers. Remember hippy panhandlers? Nice kids from middle class homes.
Ippy, You've traveled. What's that word the French use? You've been in one of those situations where someone was criticizing someone and it sounded like they were describing themselves. The French have a word for it. What's that word, Ippy?
My, my walk right past beggars and don't make eye contact, how compassionate.
Well then HT, how about conceding that during the Republican ascendency we are seeing very low un-employment. Maybe the increase in panhandling is because of liberal values which don't emphasize personal accountability, responsibility, and productivity. I'd bet on that before I'd blame it on a robust economy.
Here's a new one you can try:
"Sorry, I gave at the office via my payroll taxes."
Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day.
Give a man a job and he can eat for an hour, usually between noon and one o'clock.
Love that Troll Conan. You were kind of cute and loveable anyway.
You know I read your earlier post and I hear you. You work your tail off. You haven't had a whole lot of help along the way. Paying the bills and just maintaining a pretty basic lifestyle is not easy. It's a tough world out there. It's not easy to make a living. Men don't help each other. They compete with each other.
We've seen historically high unemployment throughout the Reagan era. Four percent was considered high unemployment before the Reagan years. We have ratcheted down our expectations.
Robust economy? When is this robustness going to show up in wages?
The outcome of liberal values is a matter of record now and it was a huge success. Liberal values created the middle class in the span of one generation.
We are where we are now because of the revolt of the rich which began in the 1970s. The upper class decided it didn't want to contribute its share of the burden of running our country. What they haven't been able to eliminate they have shifted onto the backs of the middle and lower classes in the form of sales taxes and fees.
They found a willing partner in the Republican Party and your coalition of the Greedy and the Religious Nuts has been able to muster the thin majority you've needed to stay in power for close to 30 years now.
But what was more damaging was the way you caught our imagination. Reagan told us we could have something for nothing.
You had the consummate salesman in Reagan. But, the same words he spoke are repeated now without effect.
Those same words no longer have the ring of truth because we have the outcome of your theories before our eyes. The rich have grown richer than ever before and middle and lower classes have taken a terrible hit. Your greed has done serious damage to our way of life.
I believe one of the local news stations did a bit a few years ago where they dressed up one of their guys and put him at a busy highway off-ramp all dressed up to look like a bum. I think they said during the six or eight hours he was out there, he averaged something like $12/hr (which is more than I make). They donated the money to a charity.
There is a city, forgot where, maybe in Texas, that requires anyone asking for money on the streets to have a tax stamp of some sorts that they have to buy. Although not very expensive, it does deter a few and bring money back to the state for their laziness.
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day,
teach a man to fish and you can sell him equipment!"
Folks, here's the crux of the problem in Oklahoma.
Mike G.: [The panhandler] averaged something like $12/hr (which is more than I make).
Mike is an adult male worker and he makes less than $12 an hour.
Most Tulsans are in this boat, and they are trying to find someone lower on the totem pole that they can pile up on.
Mike you do have a rather serious problem but you need to look up the social ladder instead of down the social ladder, to find someone to blame.
Panhandlers don't craft monetary policy.
Tulsa's Sunday newspaper Job section is full and overflowing with jobs, some even offer bonuses, and one ad I seen even offered advance paycheck cash of $50.00. I counted well over 100 job ads for unskilled general labor in Tulsa's Sunday paper, (the only hang up may be if someone has a criminal record then finding a job is not so simple)... However,rents are low in Tulsa compaired to other cities. The beggers just seem to be lazy folks in most cases.. or so it seems to me. thanx.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Tulsa's Sunday newspaper Job section is full and overflowing with jobs, some even offer bonuses, and one ad I seen even offered advance paycheck cash of $50.00. I counted well over 100 job ads for unskilled general labor in Tulsa's Sunday paper, (the only hang up may be if someone has a criminal record then finding a job is not so simple)... However,rents are low in Tulsa compaired to other cities. The beggers just seem to be lazy folks in most cases.. or so it seems to me. thanx.
HT is right about one thing. This did not occur so much in the 70's. What has happened that it is so common now? You think it is laziness but that is a subjective analysis. Those jobs you see in the paper are piss poor jobs. The employers treat you like s**t because thats what they think you are. They plan to replace you as soon as you're spent and drag in the next gaggle of toxic workers. They use agents to hire you on temporary basis, which shows their committment to training. This also allows them to avoid the costs of real employment.
You heard the Oreck story? They moved their manufacturing plant out of the Katrina damaged Gulf area up to Tennessee. It seems that they were having problems in getting enough workers to meet production. This meant that they were having to abide by the rules of capitalism (high demand for workers & shortage of workers = higher pay to attract them). But they couldn't swallow raising the pay of their workers from $5.15 to $7.15!!! So they left for Tennessee where them folks will work for coal for the stove. They noted that the plant they were moving to had taken their operations to Mexico to keep their labor costs at the magic $5.15 level. That was a threat from them.
This is not global marketing folks. Oreck started here, made its brand here, and primarily markets in America. This is bastardized laws of supply and demand. We called it administrative pricing in the day. It has resulted in poorer and poorer quality products. The cheaper price is illusory. Example: Bought a 12volt Eveready car battery from our friends at WalMart Dec.31st. Good brand, good price $39.95. On January 21st after sitting in an unused car for less than a month, it discharged and refused to take a recharge.
I of course returned it because of the free replacement within 30days Eveready offer. That offer should have tipped me off. Companies have eliminated their quality control employees in an effort "to meet the realities of global trade". This means that the function of quality control has been passed on to the consumer. I now am responsible for determining that it was a faulty product, remove it and return it at my own cost where they will cheerfully exchange it for another one. All to save labor costs. And we lower our expectations and keep taking this bs. I told the automotive mgr. that I had never had an Eveready battery fail me before. She said "Oh, we get lots of them back. We didn't use to, but now we do." No surprise there. WalMart insisted on the low price, which led to the poor quality. Just think. They're doing that with your food too.
Well, when you consider that it says "Eveready" with a $40 price tag comes with a 30 day warranty and the average car battery costs about $30 to $40 more and comes with up to a 72 month pro-rated warranty, that should be your first clue. You can be assured that some company in India is either making cheap-o car batteries for them, or the Indian company is paying a licensing fee to Eveready. Either way, it's not the same quality control as their smaller batteries. Not lampooning you WB, just saying that if no one was willing to buy a $40 car battery, they would not exist on the market.
The large consumer demand for low-priced goods doesn't help the wage picture. It puts pressure on companies to control labor costs so either they continue to pay piss-poor wages here in U.S. factories, or they move over the border to Mexico, or set up shop in India or China.
Raising the minimum wage will result in more items being produced out of the country or inflation.
We want higher wages, but we don't want the price of our consumer goods to go up. If prices go up due to higher wages, then the mentality becomes that corporations are being greedy and sticking it to the consumer. A higher minimum wage is a zero sum gain unless manufacturers move the jobs to an area where they can legally pay less for labor, in which case unemployment goes up.
quote:
Ippy, You've traveled. What's that word the French use? You've been in one of those situations where someone was criticizing someone and it sounded like they were describing themselves. The French have a word for it. What's that word, Ippy?
Perhaps the word you're looking for is
surrender Rev. Lovejoy?
I think it's
ville natale though...
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Well, when you consider that it says "Eveready" with a $40 price tag comes with a 30 day warranty and the average car battery costs about $30 to $40 more and comes with up to a 72 month pro-rated warranty, that should be your first clue. You can be assured that some company in India is either making cheap-o car batteries for them, or the Indian company is paying a licensing fee to Eveready. Either way, it's not the same quality control as their smaller batteries. Not lampooning you WB, just saying that if no one was willing to buy a $40 car battery, they would not exist on the market.
The large consumer demand for low-priced goods doesn't help the wage picture. It puts pressure on companies to control labor costs so either they continue to pay piss-poor wages here in U.S. factories, or they move over the border to Mexico, or set up shop in India or China.
Raising the minimum wage will result in more items being produced out of the country or inflation.
We want higher wages, but we don't want the price of our consumer goods to go up. If prices go up due to higher wages, then the mentality becomes that corporations are being greedy and sticking it to the consumer. A higher minimum wage is a zero sum gain unless manufacturers move the jobs to an area where they can legally pay less for labor, in which case unemployment goes up.
I had three choices for a battery that would fit this 20yr old car. The higher priced battery by Eveready simply had a little more CCA and a longer warranty. The lowest priced was off brand with the same warranty. I went with the middle price. So their was an expectation of Eveready delivering a standard quality battery. There was simply no quality control. They were probably all three made in China. Doubtful Eveready would have different plants for different CCA's.
You low wage guys paint yourself into a corner using false assumptions. You ignore the past. Every time since I was a stock boy at Safeway and the minimum wage was 75 cents/hour I have listened to those arguments. Inflation, job loss, closing factories etc. And its never happened. Never. I even had to listen once to the owner of the Admiral Twin drive-in tell me at the gate one night that they were going to have to close if Clinton was elected and the minimum wage was raised. Both happened and he now owns both the Admiral and the Riverwalk movies.
The first assumption is that there is this unquenchable demand for lowest price goods. That comes from not having been on the planet as an adult consumer before 1975. Once you make that assumption then everything else falls in place and you all feel confident that anyone supporting a rise in the minimum wage is naive or supports inflation, shipping jobs overseas etc. ad nauseum.
Just for kicks, change the assumption. Did I really want the lowest price for my battery? No. Nor did I purchase the lowest price. I chose brand over price and relied on that corporation to come through for me. They didn't. Corp.s all over the country are sacrificing their brands that they worked hard to build for generations just to get in WalMarts door. They are afraid not to because they went to the same school of business you did.
Discriminating buyers of products that absolutely must work on a constant basis are willing to pay more and do pay more. I could have bought an Optima for more dollars and would have if it weren't going into a 20 yr old rusted Toyota.
This drive to keep wages low and move factories to China/Mexico etc. has little to do with labor costs being too high here. It has to do with company leadership that is out of touch with its own consumers and workers. The extreme spread of compensation between those who produce and those who manage is but one proof of that. Do you think I will ever buy a (N)Eveready battery again? They have been added to my list of co.s that can't be trusted and are vulnerable to dissappear.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Tulsa's Sunday newspaper Job section is full and overflowing with jobs, some even offer bonuses, and one ad I seen even offered advance paycheck cash of $50.00. I counted well over 100 job ads for unskilled general labor in Tulsa's Sunday paper, (the only hang up may be if someone has a criminal record then finding a job is not so simple)... However,rents are low in Tulsa compaired to other cities. The beggers just seem to be lazy folks in most cases.. or so it seems to me. thanx.
HT is right about one thing. This did not occur so much in the 70's. What has happened that it is so common now? You think it is laziness but that is a subjective analysis. Those jobs you see in the paper are piss poor jobs. The employers treat you like s**t because thats what they think you are. They plan to replace you as soon as you're spent and drag in the next gaggle of toxic workers. They use agents to hire you on temporary basis, which shows their committment to training. This also allows them to avoid the costs of real employment.
I hear this all the time, and it reminds me of Cinderella Man. We don't have any idea of what a s**t job is in 2007, or what it is to truly have NOTHING. Our "poor" are the richest in the world.
How many in the US actually live and support a family on minimum wage (//%22http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/WM19.cfm%22)? To save you reading the article, it's
less than 1 million people...
With that being said, I really don't care if they up the minimum wage, hell, raise it to about $25 per hour. I just don't want you *****ing when small businesses and companies make drastic staffing cuts or relocate to compensate, and the unemployment stats skyrocket and our GDP takes a hit. BTW, you can't even begin to compare what happened in the 70's with the dynamic global economy we have now. While your personal observations are interesting, it's a new world today and a far more complex economic climate than it was 30+ years ago.
No other country provides you with the opportunities available in the US. Educate yourself, work hard and persist.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
Tulsa's Sunday newspaper Job section is full and overflowing with jobs, some even offer bonuses, and one ad I seen even offered advance paycheck cash of $50.00. I counted well over 100 job ads for unskilled general labor in Tulsa's Sunday paper, (the only hang up may be if someone has a criminal record then finding a job is not so simple)... However,rents are low in Tulsa compaired to other cities. The beggers just seem to be lazy folks in most cases.. or so it seems to me. thanx.
HT is right about one thing. This did not occur so much in the 70's. What has happened that it is so common now? You think it is laziness but that is a subjective analysis. Those jobs you see in the paper are piss poor jobs. The employers treat you like s**t because thats what they think you are. They plan to replace you as soon as you're spent and drag in the next gaggle of toxic workers. They use agents to hire you on temporary basis, which shows their committment to training. This also allows them to avoid the costs of real employment.
I hear this all the time, and it reminds me of Cinderella Man. We don't have any idea of what a s**t job is in 2007, or what it is to truly have NOTHING. Our "poor" are the richest in the world.
How many in the US actually live and support a family on minimum wage (//%22http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/WM19.cfm%22)? To save you reading the article, it's less than 1 million people...
With that being said, I really don't care if they up the minimum wage, hell, raise it to about $25 per hour. I just don't want you *****ing when small businesses and companies make drastic staffing cuts or relocate to compensate, and the unemployment stats skyrocket and our GDP takes a hit...
No other country provides you with the opportunities available in the US. Educate yourself, work hard and persist.
IP, I learned when I worked a strike for Cities Service Oil back in the 70's what raises in minimum wages and increased benefits at the lowest level is really all about. After talking with some of the old timers in management we realized that when the union struck for dental benefits and succeeded...everyone up the ladder got dental benefits! We suddenly realized we were working for the enemy! The upper management already had a sweet medical benefits package. They didn't want to have to pay for the middle level guys to get the same as they had. Otherwise, what good is it being superior?
To repeat, in my lifetime I have never seen the dire predictions you and Conan make ever come to pass from higher minimum wages. Its rhetoric.
That's not what the statistics say:
Labor economists refer to the "elasticity" of demand for labor to describe the ratio of jobs gained or lost when wages change. Estimates of this "elasticity" vary, but the average estimate by labor economists is that for a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, employment among those affected drops by 5 percent. If the minimum wage is increased from $5.15 to $6.65 per hour, demand for unskilled labor could drop by as much as 15 percent in jobs that earn the minimum wage, resulting in the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs and making it more difficult for poor families to take this escape route out of poverty. -- Victor Fuchs, Alan Krueger, and James Poterba,"Economists' Views About Parameters, Values, and Policies: Survey Results in Labor and Public Economics," Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 36, (September 1998) pp 1387-1425.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
That's not what the statistics say:
Labor economists refer to the "elasticity" of demand for labor to describe the ratio of jobs gained or lost when wages change. Estimates of this "elasticity" vary, but the average estimate by labor economists is that for a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage, employment among those affected drops by 5 percent. If the minimum wage is increased from $5.15 to $6.65 per hour, demand for unskilled labor could drop by as much as 15 percent in jobs that earn the minimum wage, resulting in the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs and making it more difficult for poor families to take this escape route out of poverty. -- Victor Fuchs, Alan Krueger, and James Poterba,"Economists' Views About Parameters, Values, and Policies: Survey Results in Labor and Public Economics," Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 36, (September 1998) pp 1387-1425.
Those are not historical. They are estimates, predictions...guesses. Can you really see a loss of jobs in this sector after looking at the Sunday classifieds? Who will do the work? That implies that an employer will just throw up his hands and say, "In spite of demand for my product, and the fact that I cannot find anyone but illegals to do this work, I cannot afford to pay $2 more for this work than I did in 1996. Better close up shop and sell cars."?
1. Hometown:
a) Thanks for reading my WHOLE POST and not just the headline. Contrary to your accusation, I specifically said that I had sympathy for and want to see aid given to people who are "unlucky" or failed for whatever reason. I do not want to be forced to give aid, nor do I want to see that aid given without questions asked. If so, I demand my share.
b) Please take a lesson or two in economics. 4% unemployment is considered at or near FULL EMPLOYMENT. Between people entering and exiting the workforce, people getting fired, people quiting, and layoffs... 4% unemployment is about as low as it is EVER going to get. In fact, anything less than 5-6% unemployment is considered bad for economic growth. Who is going to open a new manufacturing plant and try to hire hundred of people if everyone already has a job?
c) The current economy is extremely robust. Both locally, nationally, and globally. Wages are a cyclical affair, with industry and workers alternating control. Industry has the upper hand at the moment because of the lien times in the early 2000's, expect workers to gain the upper hand soon as unemployment is low and profits are high.
d) Im tired of hearing the Myth of shifting tax burdens. The chart below very clearly indicates the reverse is true, in fact the top 20% of wage earners pay nearly 80% of the tax. 40% of our country pays NOTHING in federal tax. New Slogan: No representation without taxation.
(http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/images/whopays_area0.gif)
http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-1.htm
2) Why are people panhandlnig more now than before. I blame a complete lack of self respect. Some people want to look like crap, shun education, and dont think twice about taking handouts from the government or anyone else. In some circles people still try to avoid such things.
3) Raising the minimum wage is a joke.
Currently, a state can raise the wage if it so chooses. But it has never had a realized effect on any standard of living.
First of all, no one makes minimum wage. If you do, its because you either have nothing to sell or you arent a good employee. Sorry, but that's the truth. A high school dropout that hasn't held a job for more than 6 months in a row... has nothing to sell. Why should an employer buy it? It is, after all, a labor market. There are some people who simply lack work experience and have to start somewhere and will work their way up, so thank god their are jobs out there that dont cost the employer much so they can give new workers a chance.
Not to mention the cost of everything will go up accordingly OR the numbers employed will go down. Do you honestly think the evil corporations will just eat the extra wage expense or will they pass it on to everyone? If you really want to see the order taker at McDonalds get ahead, tip him a couple bucks next time you drive thru.
Speaking of McDonalds. The vast majority of Americans got a start to their working careers at minimum wage. Companies can hire workers with little expense and watch them leave or turn out to be crap. Other markets, where hiring and firing is banned and wages are artificially inflated, do not provide this advantage. Most young workers graduate high school and go on to unemployment. They dont even have the basic job skills learned at a minimum wage job (proving you can show up on time, that you will work for 8 hours, that you can answer to authority, etc.). Thus, many socialist paradises have unemployment rates for youth approaching 33%. Personally, high school kids get in enough trouble as it is. I prefer them giving me poor service at McDonald's than hanging around my house from 3:00 until I get home from work. There is a proven correlation between unemployed youth and crime.
Just another example of an over powered government trying to tell people what to do. The net effects will be next to nothing nationwide. The only states that will have an impact will be the poor states (like Oklahoma).
I agree with Wilbur - 99.9% of the bums are scamming you for money to buy crack or liquor.
For those of you spotting the bums at 71st and Hwy 169, they all live in a open-air shack in the woods, just southeast of the Staples. Take a trek back there and you'll see an ocean of discarded liquor containers, beer cans. Be careful of the outdoor loo, as it's not marked. A well-worn trail leads from the shack back to the intersection.
The bums spotted at 51st and Peoria or Skelly and Lewis most often stay in a wooded patch behind the mexican restaurant at 51st and Lewis. With a liquor store in walking distance, why leave?
The people you see begging have been doing so for years, often at the same exact location. I watched in horror one day as a motorist stopped for a panhandler and handed him a grocery sack with a fresh-cooked chicken and a liter of soda. A very nice gesture on the motorists part, however, would this motorist have done the same thing if instead of a bum at that intersection, there was a man digging a ditch to support his family? Most likely not. But whose behavior are we rewarding? The hard-worker or the panhandler?
By giving panhandlers money, you only encourage them to stay. That means for years. And before you do give them money, ask yourself, "would I want them panhandling in front of my house?"
If the answer is yes, then by all means take them with you!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
d) Im tired of hearing the Myth of shifting tax burdens. The chart below very clearly indicates the reverse is true, in fact the top 20% of wage earners pay nearly 80% of the tax. 40% of our country pays NOTHING in federal tax. New Slogan: No representation without taxation.
(http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/images/whopays_area0.gif)
http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-1.htm
Hey, Cannon, why does your chart quit in 1995? What do you suppose has happened since then? What about the Bush tax cuts? Tell us about that, please...or should I?
/Kinda adds a new layer of meaning to the thread title, don't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
d) Im tired of hearing the Myth of shifting tax burdens. The chart below very clearly indicates the reverse is true, in fact the top 20% of wage earners pay nearly 80% of the tax. 40% of our country pays NOTHING in federal tax. New Slogan: No representation without taxation.
(http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/images/whopays_area0.gif)
http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-1.htm
Hey, Cannon, why does your chart quit in 1995? What do you suppose has happened since then? What about the Bush tax cuts? Tell us about that, please...or should I?
/Kinda adds a new layer of meaning to the thread title, don't it?
The reason the graph shows that information is not that the rich have any higher tax rate, but the average family income in dollars at 1995 rates had fallen for the bottom three quintiles, held steadily for the fourth and grown rapidly for the highest.
Family Income and Tax Burden Data (//%22http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1545&from=4&sequence=0%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
Hey, Cannon, why does your chart quit in 1995? What do you suppose has happened since then? What about the Bush tax cuts? Tell us about that, please...or should I?
/Kinda adds a new layer of meaning to the thread title, don't it?
I don't want to hear it unless you have some actual statistics to back it up.
I have a feeling you wouldn't want to hear if even if I
did provide statistics.[:D]
Here ya go:
Study: Bush Tax Cuts Favor Wealthy (2004) (//%22http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/politics/main636398.shtml%22)
quote:
People in the top 20 percent of incomes, averaging $182,700 a year, saw their share of federal taxes decline from 65.3 percent of total payments in 2001 to 63.5 percent this year, according to the study by congressional budget analysts.
In contrast, middle-class taxpayers — with incomes ranging from $51,500 to $75,600 — bear a greater tax burden. Those making an average of $75,600 had the biggest jump in their share of taxes, from 18.5 percent of all payments in 2001 to 19.5 percent this year.
Canon Fodder said, "...the top 20% of wage earners pay nearly 80% of the tax". Nuh-uh. They pay far less than that...63.5%. And that's down from 2001; so much for your trend.
Here's the real craw-sticker:
quote:
The study found that the effective tax rate for the top 1 percent of taxpayers dropped from 33 percent in 2001 to 26.7 percent this year, a decline of 19 percent.
Back to the car battery- There's more to a car battery than just price and CCA. The better batteries have better plates inside them and more plates inside them, that is where the electric juice is made.
The study, requested by congressional Democrats in May, quickly provided fodder for the presidential campaign over the fairness of more than $1 trillion in tax cuts Mr. Bush has pushed through Congress since taking office.
Ouch! Hate to be a party pooper here, but I might be looking for something that's a bit less partisan...would you let me post a report requested by the republicans?
Here is a raw numbers (//%22http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6%22) feed from NTU. The top 1% are actually paying more percentage wise since Bush took office and the bottom 50% are paying less...
Awww, gimme a break. The NTU (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Taxpayers_Union%22) is a bunch of flat tax, taxpayer bill of rights, wingers founded by James Dale Davidson (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dale_Davidson%22) (Newsmax, Whitewater, Troopergate, Vince Foster). That's partisan, pally.[xx(]
The Congressional Budget Office is a federal agency within a then-Republican Congress.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
Awww, gimme a break. The NTU (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Taxpayers_Union%22) is a bunch of flat tax, taxpayer bill of rights, wingers founded by James Dale Davidson (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dale_Davidson%22) (Newsmax, Whitewater, Troopergate, Vince Foster). That's partisan, pally.[xx(]
The Congressional Budget Office is a federal agency within a then-Republican Congress.
The CBO will give you the same raw data...it just doesn't have any spin on it yet.
Nuh-uh. The CBO said the top 20% paid 63.5%. Your taxpayers group said the top 10% paid 68.19%. Both for 2004.
Somebody's numbers are off. I'm going to guess that it's not the CBO. Also, why would the CBO "spin" for the Democrats when they were under Republican management?
Ah I see...CBO versus IRS numbers. I've heard there are several ways of calculating tax stats, and just like anything else, the person requesting the report is most likely to find the numbers they want from whatever agency makes their point for them.
Either way, we're off topic. I'll continue, but we should move it to politics.
I'm happy to continue this, wherever. Your Scaife-bought NTU guys say that an income of $60,041 puts you in the top 25% of income earners. Baloney.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I was wondering what people's general take is on the increasing number of bums at street corners as the weather improves?
Bum: one who sponges off others and avoids work. A vagrant.
I know Tulsa is known and reputed for being a giving city. I see people handing these men (predominantly men) wads of bills, probably $5 on average. As I sat the other day at Ikes on Utica and 244 I watched one man collect from 5 or 6 different cars in the 45 minutes I was there. As I started to leave a white van pulled up and opened its door. He got in and another man got out... they traded the card bored sign and the van headed off. A shift change for god's sake!
When I worked downtown I was asked for money nearly everyday. "I just got out of prison and need money for a bus ride home." "I haven't eaten all day and need money for food." or my all time favorite a man who asked for $27 to get his prescription filled after an elaborate story. In all the instances above I offered to go with them and buy them a ticket, get something to eat, or fill the prescription (partly calling BS and partly because I dont carry cash). In every instance but one I was denied and they asked the person behind me (one man actually walked to the bus station with me and I bought him a ticket... for which he thanks me a great deal).
Likewise, in the rare instance that I was able to offer work to 'will work for food' I have had no takers. I worked for a lawn crew a couple summers in college and the foreman offered several times @ $50 for the remainder of the day with no takers.
I am of the opinion that most people panhandling are indeed bums and nothing more. Some of them are probably actual scam artists, others lazy and looking for a quick buick. Everyone knows the will work for food and elaborate stories you hear downtown are BS and Im tired of the "God Bless" signs at freeway exits. Am I a calloused, cold, heartless individual or... wait, dont answer that.
I was just wondering what everyone else's take is on this? If you give money, why? Is it out of a sincere belief that they need help or guilt or?
Just curious.
Well we have alot of Homeless in Ca. I feel sorry for them .But hubby says there in that way because they choose to be.I have a Big Heart though so I have tried to help them give them something to eat , or bottled water sometimes I have given money .I know there are some who choose that life and make a great living at it [:(]sad as that is . But I beleive some are in a very down and out time in there lives .
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
I'm happy to continue this, wherever. Your Scaife-bought NTU guys say that an income of $60,041 puts you in the top 25% of income earners. Baloney.
Done.
Quoting Waterboy: "The first assumption is that there is this unquenchable demand for lowest price goods. That comes from not having been on the planet as an adult consumer before 1975. Once you make that assumption then everything else falls in place and you all feel confident that anyone supporting a rise in the minimum wage is naive or supports inflation, shipping jobs overseas etc. ad nauseum."
You are right about one thing, in 1975, I was a young whip buying Wrigley's Juicy Fruit at Steve's Sundries for 10 cents a pack and Double Bubble for a penny or two a blob.
Discount stores used to be fire-sale (literally) stores like Wall's, now they are all over the place and they offer durable products at very good prices.
Here's what's happened in the years since 1975: local and smaller regional (10-20 units) retailers no longer dominate the consumer landscape. Large scale retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, etc. dominate the market and for the most part set the prices everyone else has to compete with. Local grocers struggle to compete with Wal-Mart and Albertsons. The only two exceptions I can think of are Warehouse Market (usually more generic brands there- though I think the quality of their meat is pretty damn good) and Reasor's which is more of a regional brand now.
Local grocers like Sipes and Bud's just could not buy on the scale these other stores can and could not run a store as efficiently. Lower prices elsewhere and more stream-lined business models essentially ran them out of business.
Other than lumber and sheetrock, you could get most everything at my favorite hardware store: Harvard True-Value. When they closed the owner told me he just could not compete with Lowe's and Home Depot. It wasn't that the prices were significantly lower, it was competing with pooled national advertising dollars and the perception that the prices were lower at H-D and Lowe's. Home improvement is a good example of lower-price sells.
Ever try to get Wal-Mart to buy a product for re-sale before? Their buyers dictate how much you will sell it to them for. Essentially this is based anywhere from calculating how much of a profit margin the buyer thinks you should make on your product to flat out deciding a particular product is worth XX dollars to them. IOW- the retailer's buyers are more or less dictating the profit margin. If the manufacturer wants to make more profit, they have to do it via cutting their own internal costs rather than passing them along to the retailer, otherwise they will be locked out.
Large retailers have shifted focus from quality to price. Yes they do have higher-quality, higher-priced items, but many wage earners gravitate to the lowest priced comparable item and retailers know low prices will get a lot of people in the door. Witness all the pull-out ads in the Sunday paper with "blow-out" prices on everything from sneakers to washers and dryers. Low retail price points means there must be lower wholesale prices.
Why do you think that Levi-Strauss, an American icon, now has all their clothes made in Central America? I bought equipment a year or so back out of the Wrangler jeans plant down in Seminole. They "phased" it from manufacturing to a warehouse facility to warehouse goods made in other countries- there went a hundered or so Oklahoma jobs. Why? Because people like me and you won't pay $50 for a pair of basic Wrangler jeans. There were lower priced options in the market. If you do a price comparision, I bet you find the price of Levis and Wranger are pretty close to what they were 20 years ago.
If lower pricing hasn't been a consideration, then why have so many maquiladoras set up across the border? Why have China's and India's economy ramped up with more and more exports to the U.S.? Former Soviet bloc countries like Poland and Czechloslovakia have done quite well too. The answer is that labor is much cheaper and we have a demand for low-prices on day-to-day items and many durable goods.
I've seen quite a few examples of products which cost either the same or less than it did 20 years ago. The only difference is where they are made. Go to Home Depot and price out one of those little dorm refrigerators. One identical to the one I bought in 1984 for $99 now retails for $79. The difference? The one I bought in 1984 was built in the U.S. with U.S. made components. The ones at the big box stores are made out of the country, or at the very least assembled here with foreign-made components.
Here's another example: Fender Guitars another American icon- only about 25% of their product offerings are made in the U.S. anymore. The bulk are made in Mexico and Korea and to a lesser extent Japan. Why? Lower price points and big box music stores like Guitar Center which have dictated lower prices. You can buy a Fender Stratocaster made in China or Korea for about what you could buy a new one for in the late 1960's.
There are a lot of sub-industries which have gone out of the states as well. There are many products which are assembled in the U.S. but the components are made over-seas and shipped here for final assembly. Each of those component parts could be (and one day in the past were) made by a company here in the states, but at a much higher cost.
I assure you it is not out of altruism that we are helping the economies of nations with lower standards of living.
Products that used to be made in the USA are being made on the same equipment they were made on here and using the same raw materials. The difference is that the labor cost is a hell of a lot less than it was when it was being made here and supplying jobs for American wage earners.
I guess advancing age and society changes have just made me more cynical over the years, but now I never give cash handouts to people on the street. When asked, I usually just ignore them. I DO give periodic donations to John 3:16, Salvation Army, Meals-on-Wheels, etc. without a second thought. I consider that money well spent.
Panhandlers for cash don't bother me much, but lately I have been accosted several times outside of QTs or fast food restaurants and fed sad sack stories and asked for car rides. That always creeps me out; I usually mumble some lame excuse and leave ASAP. I would never give a car ride to a stranger these days, no matter what. Sad, but that is how I feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
You are something else with that hand on the gun, Hawkins.
Let's face it; no one's going to ask for your voting record if they want that dollar bill in your pocket. They don't care what I've spent my life doing. They just want my dollar bill.
I believe Hawkins mentioned that this incident took place after midnight...
Being approached by a stranger at Quiktrip after midnight would have me reaching for a concealed weapon as well.
As dumb as panhandling is, late-night panhandling is even dumber. I hope that never happens to me, but I'll be watching over my shoulder if I ever have to pump gas that late.
Per the tax graph, I simply linked to the wrong graph. I would READILY WELCOME any contrary data. All the data I have ever seen shows that the bottom 50% pay nearly no tax at all. In fact, the bottom 25% is actually a draw on the federal government and contribute nothing:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=268
All the numbers you could ever want. Most of the numbers are several years old because it takes that long for the information to be released and compiled.
Anyway, I have never seen a credible source that confirms the myth of the tax cuts for the rich. The only truth in that is that the bottom 25% got no tax cut at all - because they dont pay taxes, they collect them.
It is clear that some people will refuse to look up the data, have a basic understanding of economics, or simply dont care. If you want to pretend that we have a regressive tax structure in this country - go for it. The fact is the bottom pool in this country are a drain on out nations tax resources and dont pay into it. Anyone who has ever been poor in their life knows this all to well - when you look forward to your "refund" after claiming EXEMPT on your W-2.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I was just wondering what everyone else's take is on this? If you give money, why? Is it out of a sincere belief that they need help or guilt or?
99% of the time I do not give.If they are honest I might give them money.I worked in Downtown I heard all those same excuses you heard,you probably even heard one guy try to tell you that his father died in the hospital and left him his car( or the salvation Army gave him the car) and he needs gas and toll both money to get back home.I despise people who try to exploit sympathy by lying for personal gain.Not all the homeless in Downtown are bums,there is this one guy name Wess who offers to write poems for money.
As long as Tulsa lets churches and organizations cater to bums Downtown Tulsa will always be a bum magnet and as long as Tulsa does not have or does not enforce anti-panhandling laws bums will always flock to busy corners.
quote:
I know Tulsa is known and reputed for being a giving city. I see people handing these men (predominantly men) wads of bills, probably $5 on average. As I sat the other day at Ikes on Utica and 244 I watched one man collect from 5 or 6 different cars in the 45 minutes I was there. As I started to leave a white van pulled up and opened its door. He got in and another man got out... they traded the card bored sign and the van headed off. A shift change for god's sake!
I remember seeing that occur one time when I was skipping school at Admiral Park,it was when that Ikes used to be a QuickTrip.Although there was no van and they hung out in the park drinking natural light beer.
My father had the solution to panhandlers.In 1976? My father and I were standing in a ungodly line downtown waiting for Elvis tickets.A bum was working the line with a can he was holding out for money.He approached my dad,held out the can,and before he could pitch his story,my dad says"Well thank you!!"and reached into the can and took out a dollar!The bum was shocked and left.True story.
When panhandlers ask me for money, I explain to them my mortgage, car payment, credit cards, etc.
I then say, "I am in debt and you are even. You should give me money."
True that Michael. For net worth, most of the bums probably have me beat! Hell, zero sounds like a good point to be at.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
When panhandlers ask me for money, I explain to them my mortgage, car payment, credit cards, etc.
I then say, "I am in debt and you are even. You should give me money."
[}:)][}:)][}:)]
I'm getting ready to go to Arnie's. I'll see if I have to pull that one out when I leave tonight.
Well I dunno about the bumz on the streets, but all I can say is make sure you pay and file your federal income taxes by April 15, we have 20 million illegal aliens depending on you.[:)]