As much as posters here love to discuss almost anything, I am amazed that there has not been comment on the Arkansas River smell.
After much research, I posted a story on www.TulsaToday.com pointing to this subject as the 10 ton gorilla no one seems to consider in all the river plans. The studies are named within the story and the facts know to city officials, so why is there no discussion of a stink proven in excess of 700 times detectable over 2000 times per year?
It must be me. This admittedly Liberal leaning site and the rebellion rightwing forum both ignored the story. I know several of the regular posters here read it, because we talked about it. Funny thing to be able to tick off the left and right with simply revealing information – don't ya hate it when stuff just doesn't fit other agendas.
These few words of course may or may not be allowed and, if so, I am sure to take pot shots as has happened in each and every post I have ever made here, but what the heck – shoot the messenger, but don't ignore the issue as it is important.
http://www.tulsatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1170&Itemid=2
There are several reasons why I think we "hear" this silence. One is that so often whenever people get a whiff of that smell they immediately think it has to do with the refineries or they are told it is the refineries. Plus the "smell issue" always seems to be about the refineries and when you mention the sewage treatment plant, they are so hooked on being angry about the refineries they brush aside any talk about the treatment plant and forge ahead with their gripes about the refineries.
BTW I have never smelled the refineries. Don't get me wrong I am sure that smell exists and there are pleeeenty of people who do smell them. BUT I have smelled that sewage treatment plant many many a time lol. Usually when you are driving down riverside and get that "Wow whats that smell?" thing goin on, thats the sewage treatment plant and outlets not the refinery.
I have a feeling that once something actually is done with the river parks and more people start utilizing and living near it, that action will begin to take place concerning that sewage treatment plant. As it is the river plans have always been, theory and hope. Its just a dried up riverbed with junk along the shorelines that people jog and bikeride along occasionally. But once it becomes a real centerpiece of the city, then indeed that odor problem will be front and center.
Also its just not a sexy topic and not one many know much about. What can be done about it? I remember reading an article about a modern sewage treatment facility that was actually part of a park, people could tour through it. It used plants in an artificial wetland type environment to clean and process the sewage. It showed pictures of people and kids walking along these raised beds kind of like large, long, block sized, containers that were about knee high, inside them were differnt types of plants floating in water, there were greenhouses, waterfalls, streams, etc. etc. It was not a smelly factory type environment. Also I have read about how things can be done to those things along the park that release "smell" that will reduce or eliminate the smell.
In other words, do a bit of some research and you can find ways to fix the odor problem. There are creative solutions out there.
Perhaps its just that people have problems focusing on several things at once lol. Get the park actually looking like a park and development actually starting to happen. Then I guarantee you peoples attention will then be more than free and focused enough to attack this problem.
Well done, David. The ten ton gorilla has been discussed on these pages. I know because I brought it up or responded to remarks for a couple of years now. But I do not have the knowledge you acquired to write the story, the writing ability or the platform to reach out with. And besides, I'm kinda liberal.[;)]
I have become weary of talking river issues. I've tried to ignore the politics and focus on contact with anyone who could get information out about river issues. This forum is helpful for that. My feeling is its about as popular with public officials as zero based budgeting. Mostly people yawn or can't fathom the complexities.
The postings on this forum are mostly concerning bank development and ignore the reality of a river criss-crossed with sewer pipes, gas lines, abandoned oil pipelines, heavy equipment, demolished bridge debris and plain old junk. Hell, people don't even like the natural smell of the river and don't know the difference between that and sewage. The tepid response by Bixby and Jenks is testament to that lack of understanding. Do you know the story of the rescue on the island below Riverwalk? Wait till the low water dam slows down the movement of the effluent from a failing old treatment plant and they have to post signs warning contact is dangerous. So much for water taxis.
There are so many river issues that are unlikely to be addressed unless you or someone equally as able decides to keep the fires lit. If I can be any help let me know. I'll even write something if you'll edit it!
LOL, you know I do have outstanding Liberal friends and several are family.
Back to topic, we will edit and work with you or anyone to develop good information and compelling news about the Arkansas River or other Tulsa issues of concern. I don't care what the politics are of the writer or the subject. However, such an effort does require working well with others as our editors can be brutal prior to publication and demand facts with confirmation. Thus our effort in total attempts to move the bar forward with each piece in providing true tools both officials and advocates may use to better the greater community.
My e-mail is editor@tulsatoday.com.
There are few subjects we decline outright and some we cover regardless of opposition (Lisa, the "sweetness and light" editor has threatened bodily harm if I write about that proven liar and public blowhard Bates again.), but if we can prove what we discover is accurate, true, and just ... Tulsa Today will publish you and maintain that work on the Internet – ten years and counting.
David I enjoy reading your articles and etc, and I think Tulsa is very fortunate to have you.
Saying that, just because you disagree with Michael Bates doesn't make him a lair. Your both extremely outspoken and we the people of Tulsa are glad that both of you are here bringing us information that we would never know of unless it was for the two of you.
Disagreement is not the basis of our mutual distain. Bates called me the scum of the earth on radio because I asked him to go on the record on Michael DelGiorno's credibility or lack thereof. He said that I asked him a trick question which was a lie. The questions were included in my last DelGiorno foreclosure piece and may be read at the following:
http://www.tulsatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1159&Itemid=2
I believe him to be a self-aggrandizing pompous vindictive and destructive fool. I meet and talk with many people who disagree. I enjoy disagreement and debate, but Bates makes everything personnel and will never forgive anyone who supported or supports Vision 2025. I supported him for a long time. We worked together and I thought were friends. Maybe someday he will grow-up, but I am not betting on it.
Further and for the record, a recording of his assertion of a trick question and the "scum of the earth" comment can be heard at this link:
http://www.michaeldelgiornosucks.com/sound/111005_174.00_177.00arnett.mp3
The following are those questions and a note sent to Michael Bates by e-mail in 2005:
Topic # 1: Michael DelGiorno promotes himself as knowledgeable and wise in matters of public policy.
Question # 1: Is he in your opinion and can you quantify that level of knowledge and wisdom?
Question # 2: What knowledge do you have of his education, experience, or other certification that provide credibility for his assertion?
Question # 3: What have you observed to be his fundamental principles of public policy?
Topic # 2: Michael DelGiorno promotes himself as a spirit filled, honorable, honest, straightforward Christian.
Question # 1: Is he following the teachings of Christ in his personal and professional life by your observation and what specific examples of his Christian virtue in action (not talk) come to mind?
Question # 2: What church has he professed to you to attend?
Topic # 3: General Character Questions in your opinion from your personal and professional dealings with him.
Question # 1: Is Michael DelGiorno honest?
Question # 2: Is Michael DelGiorno considered in his positions or emotionally egocentric and reactionary?
Question # 3: Is Michael DelGiorno vindictive to others?
Question # 4: Does Michael DelGiorno really want to help Tulsa and if so how?
Question # 5: Has Michael DelGiorno contributed positively to our community and if so how?
Question # 6: Is there anything Michael DelGiorno would not do to advance his radio show's ratings?
Question # 7: Do you trust him?
NOTE: All of these questions arise from Michael DelGiorno's assertions on-air – he has placed these issues within the public domain and they are fittingly tested by what others have observed of him. Feel free to answer any way you would like or not, but consider that you have been asked for the record. Short answers are encouraged. You are not the only associate of Michael DelGiorno to be asked these questions. It has been surprisingly hard for Tulsa Today staff to find non-coworkers that will personally and/or professional speak in support of his character so if you know others – please let us know.
Must say I'm disappointed in Mike for saying that about you. Even if you had said what Mike said you did, I can't understand why Mike would think it was out of line because of all the trash DelGiorno says about people in town.
DelGiorno's behavior in the Casinos was the breaking point with me. I guess it took that for me too see his words are meaningless and misleads Tulsans in many different areas, if not all areas he goes on about.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
Must say I'm disappointed in Mike for saying that about you. Even if you had said what Mike said you did, I can't understand why Mike would think it was out of line because of all the trash DelGiorno says about people in town.
DelGiorno's behavior in the Casinos was the breaking point with me. I guess it took that for me too see his words are meaningless and misleads Tulsans in many different areas, if not all areas he goes on about.
Good for you Porky.
So this is all some sort of three way battle between Arnett, Bates and DelGiorno...a menage a troll, so to say?
I think you have all lost focus.
Is that what writing, publishing, speaking on the radio, etc. is all about? Trashing each other and using your media to say all the things that people say about you about others?
How do we know when one of you wins? Are we supposed to cheer for one of you?
If we do, I pick Bates.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
...a menage a troll, so to say?
That is funny!
Well then all MB has to do is apologize for calling you (DA) the scum of the earth and all would be cool? I hope so because everyone is taking all this politics way to personal and we should all - Dums, Repugs, and clear-thinking Undies - get along.
About the river, THANK GOODNESS you said something because NO ONE has noticed a smell from the river and if they did certainly never ever talked about it. Not never!
Is the smell related to embedded oil byproducts in the sand, the funk from the existing refinerrheas, or sewage treatment plants downstream? I wonder how much it would cost to remediate any of those conditions. H20boy?
Can we start another thread where the hatin' can have a home and use your introduction to the river funk to discuss the issue?
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
...a menage a troll, so to say?
About the river, THANK GOODNESS you said something because NO ONE has noticed a smell from the river and if they did certainly never ever talked about it. Not never!
Is the smell related to embedded oil byproducts in the sand, the funk from the existing refinerrheas, or sewage treatment plants downstream? I wonder how much it would cost to remediate any of those conditions. H20boy?
I gotta guess you're being sarcastic with the river smell comment never being talked about.
As far as the smells, it depends on where you are and when. Most people around the river area have smelled the refinery flare gas when the wind is out of the west. Some of the smell I'm told is from a toxic injection well on the west side that is unrelated to refineries.
As you move further downstream towards the 44 bridge you get the sewer smells. One is the lift pump just south of the bridge on Riverside. It is carrying raw sewage under the river over to the plant. Running along the path there is a real delight.
If you are crossing the 44 bridge and the wind is from the south...Welcome to Tulsa! Its so strong it will make you dizzy. People think its the river but if you were actually on the river the smell is negligible. I know, I took my boat right past the plant. David has more knowledge about how the plant should be replaced and at what cost. I really would hate to see it moved up into the Turkey mountain though. Would rather see the lines diverted to another plant and the sewer lines removed from the river.
When the river has no flow, the sand starts to dry out and the natural smell of decaying organisms that reside in any body of water permeates the air. City folk mistake that process for some sort of nasty pollution. Nature just smells that way. There is some sand imbedded with oil but you mostly see the impact, not smell it, and it is fairly rare. I know of one capped well far upstream that leaks a little and you see the black rocks. Remember though that the rhythmic flows of sand and water cleanse this type of river more than a rocky stream would.
The perception of this river as stinky and dirty is not accurate. The refineries pollute the air more than the water. The sewage treatment plants need rebuilt but haven't drastically affected the health of the river. Certainly not as much as the storm water runoff after a big rain. The worst part of the river and the easiest to address is the physical debris that has been dumped into it for the last 100 years. Oil drilling equipment, sand mining equipment, pipelines, cars, shopping carts, and the awfull remains of demolished concrete/steel bridges. Just get some dozers, cranes and trucks out there and remove the stuff. Or make the contractors and sand companies who left it there do it.
It would be prudent to clean these messes up before impounding water that humans will see as recreational. Not so big an expense now, but once its covered with water could be terribly expensive. Insurance, law suits, bad pr for a start.
The communities most at risk are Jenks, Bixby and Broken Arrow as they are at the natural collecting points for anything dumped into the river. The river slows down in those areas and the dam being considered will exacerbate that problem. Tulsa is not so much at risk as we don't have a major metropolitan area upstream from us and the water is still fast moving as it comes into our area.
I don't have any idea of the $ cost but less now than later.
Ok, I admit it. Im too lazy to read the entire article... am I correct that the executive summary would read:
"The river smells, development's is premature if it stinks. Fix/update the sewage plants."
I generally am at the riverparks South of 41st street, so the refinery smell may be there from time to time. But nothing has stopped me from having a drink down there, letting my boy play, nor letting the dogs loose for some river rompin'. The river pretty well stinks like river in that area...
Per the other areas, clearly that would be a prerequisite to further development. The smell of sewage usually doesnt lure much to the area.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Ok, I admit it. Im too lazy to read the entire article... am I correct that the executive summary would read:
"The river smells, development's is premature if it stinks. Fix/update the sewage plants."
I generally am at the riverparks South of 41st street, so the refinery smell may be there from time to time. But nothing has stopped me from having a drink down there, letting my boy play, nor letting the dogs loose for some river rompin'. The river pretty well stinks like river in that area...
Per the other areas, clearly that would be a prerequisite to further development. The smell of sewage usually doesnt lure much to the area.
Yes, but the sewage treatment plant at I-44 should be moved out of the area, not fixed/updated.
The construction of a wastewater treatment plant to handle 45,000 customers costs about $40,000,000.00 (so says Tacoma Washington). I assume the one at I-44 is larger in capacity than that, probably at least twice that.
So we are talking about an expense that could easily develop the East End in its entirety, finance the construction of a 4 year public university, complete the Highway 11 loop, build free public parking downtown, give $5,000 scholarships to every high schooler in Tulsa (interesting list of high schools in Tulsa with enrollment - nearly 20,000 kids: http://www.greatschools.net/schools.page?state=OK&city=Tulsa&lc=h&showall=true), or fund any number of other projects... its just a lot of money. Hell, it very well could be half an arena.
I imagine we could somehow cap the facility or SOMETHING without throwing away tens of millions in infrastructure. Not to mention NIMBY... where we build the new one? Keeping in mind that it costs millions of dollars more the further away you move it from the main lines, the users, and the discharge site. Dont mean to rain on the parade here or anything... but these are serious problems.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
The construction of a wastewater treatment plant to handle 45,000 customers costs about $40,000,000.00 (so says Tacoma Washington). I assume the one at I-44 is larger in capacity than that, probably at least twice that.
So we are talking about an expense that could easily develop the East End in its entirety, finance the construction of a 4 year public university, complete the Highway 11 loop, build free public parking downtown, give $5,000 scholarships to every high schooler in Tulsa (interesting list of high schools in Tulsa with enrollment - nearly 20,000 kids: http://www.greatschools.net/schools.page?state=OK&city=Tulsa&lc=h&showall=true), or fund any number of other projects... its just a lot of money. Hell, it very well could be half an arena.
I imagine we could somehow cap the facility or SOMETHING without throwing away tens of millions in infrastructure. Not to mention NIMBY... where we build the new one? Keeping in mind that it costs millions of dollars more the further away you move it from the main lines, the users, and the discharge site. Dont mean to rain on the parade here or anything... but these are serious problems.
The settling ponds could be addressed for a dismal fraction of that cost.
The southside treatment plant on riverside handles about 38% of Tulsa's wastewater needs.
Here is a link...http://www.e-tulsa.net/watered/wastewater/index.html
"Odiferous Fequency Contours"
what kind of pseudo GIS bull**** is this? Post your model buddy...post your model. Otherwise the bull**** flag is raised and flying high. I wont deny there is a problem, but I wont get behind bull**** "science" to support it.
Until then you are the turd.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
"Odiferous Fequency Contours"
what kind of pseudo GIS bull**** is this? Post your model buddy...post your model. Otherwise the bull**** flag is raised and flying high. I wont deny there is a problem, but I wont get behind bull**** "science" to support it.
Until then you are the turd.
http://www.tulsatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1170&Itemid=2
A prudent business understands that its capital assets will need to be replaced in time. Thats why the tax people allow depreciation. It also allows new technology to increase productivity with the new investment. So doesn't a prudent government plan for the replacement of its utilities?
Are we expected to continue using a facility that was built back in the late fifties using WWII technology forever? Has no money been set aside for its replacement? If so then it needs to be moved or re-routed to face the reality of development in the area. If not then lets find a way to do it.
Just saying its expensive means nothing will ever be done. Oh, wait a minute...thats whats happened here for the last 50years.
I got a real chuckle out of the writer's qualifications.
Once employed by PennWell Publishing in Tulsa as founding online editor of Water World, a publication for professionals in the municipal water and wastewater industry, I have toured all the Tulsa facilities.
That makes him qualified to explain to the engineers how things really work. I guess editing stories and touring plants makes one an expert.
I also like this qualifying sentence fragment...Sources within the wastewater industry believe and this one...Independent industry officials note and this one...One expert suggested...
Who are these sources? He doesn't say, but we are supposed to take his word that these aren't just made up sources. Not one single source in his story. Not one.
This is a hatchet job by a blogger who writes about himself in every story then calls himself a publisher and his blog "a news service".
The facts are that the plant is heavily regulated and in complete compliance.
The facts are that poop smells and when every home on the east bank all the way to 51st and Memorial flush the toilets and it has to go somewhere on the river.
The facts are that this whole story has no credibility because the source has no credibility.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
The construction of a wastewater treatment plant to handle 45,000 customers costs about $40,000,000.00 (so says Tacoma Washington). I assume the one at I-44 is larger in capacity than that, probably at least twice that.
So we are talking about an expense that could easily develop the East End in its entirety, finance the construction of a 4 year public university, complete the Highway 11 loop, build free public parking downtown, give $5,000 scholarships to every high schooler in Tulsa (interesting list of high schools in Tulsa with enrollment - nearly 20,000 kids: http://www.greatschools.net/schools.page?state=OK&city=Tulsa&lc=h&showall=true), or fund any number of other projects... its just a lot of money. Hell, it very well could be half an arena.
I imagine we could somehow cap the facility or SOMETHING without throwing away tens of millions in infrastructure. Not to mention NIMBY... where we build the new one? Keeping in mind that it costs millions of dollars more the further away you move it from the main lines, the users, and the discharge site. Dont mean to rain on the parade here or anything... but these are serious problems.
I hardly think a measly 40mill could develop the East End. Unless your thinking of filling it with cheap junk. Many universities get 100mill 500mill to billion dollar gifts from individuals to expand their universities. Its a small town mindset that thinks 40 mill is big money in respect to those types of developments. No wonder we don't get anywhere if some people think that. One of OKCs suburbs is getting a new lifestyle center estimated to cost 600-800million dollars. Yet we can develop the East End or build a new University with a measly 40 mill?
i still want to know how the "odiferous frequency contours" were calculated.
****ing hack.
My wife was at a party a couple of years ago and met one of the bigwigs at the sewer plant (and no, I don't remember his name). He told her that the sewer plant was designed with certain water dilution in mind.
But with the advent of low-flow shower heads and low-flow toilets, less water is going through the sewer plant that would dilute the sewage and, thus, the smell.
I may have missed some of the finer points of my wife's conversation, but I think I got the gist of it. It's nice that Tulsa is using less a fairly valuable resource like water (especially with the drought of the last two years). But there was an unintended consequence.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I got a real chuckle out of the writer's qualifications.
The facts are that this whole story has no credibility because the source has no credibility.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I got a real chuckle out of the writer's qualifications.
The facts are that this whole story has no credibility because the source has no credibility.
That is really helpful to the discussion.
So discuss.
Treatment plant stink.
I'm against it.
Ima gin it.
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Ima gin it.
Can we ship it to Utah? They could inject it into deep wells.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Ima gin it.
Can we ship it to Utah? They could inject it into deep wells.
Most boats don't hold much, depending on the size of the poop deck.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by tim huntzinger
Ima gin it.
Can we ship it to Utah? They could inject it into deep wells.
Most boats don't hold much, depending on the size of the poop deck.
Trucks, silly. You know those ships of the highway. Or, how about we divert it into pipelines and send it to refineries in La.?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Trucks, silly. You know those ships of the highway. Or, how about we divert it into pipelines and send it to refineries in La.?
I know trucks, I didn't assume you would go to Utah by boat.
I say we build a catapult and fling the poop at our enemies.
quote:
I say we build a catapult and fling the poop at our enemies.
[8D]!
Everyone knows it is Mayor Taylor's fault. Whups, I mean The Chamber. No, wait, Gene Stipe. That is not it, hold on . . .
Load up those giant water carying planes that fight forest fires. Drop some "loads" on those terrorists. You know dang well they would lose their appetite to fight us reeeeal quick like lol.[xx(] Lot cheaper than those smart bombs too.
So why is it that the Tulsa Now organization wants to put some distance between itself and this Forum?
Oh Oh, I have a great new slogan for Tulsa concerning the river and its stench. You see its all in how you word this stuff. Its called spin.
Come to Tulsa and have a "breath taking" experience along our river. [:P]
So why is it that the Tulsa Now organization wants to put some distance between itself and this Forum?
...cause we forumers talk about flinging poop.
Originally posted by The Artist.
quote:
So why is it that the Tulsa Now organization wants to put some distance between itself and this Forum?
Actually that is a very good question.
The fact that they offer this Forum as a "public service" goes quite a ways towards making them legitimate... as a non profit... regardless of the Political portion of the Forum...
They are allowed a percentage of their activity to be political even when they become a 501 (c) (3).......
This "Forum" gives an individual the means to stay in touch with the volume of information offered here, a platform in which to pose questions to individuals that they may not gain audience with, and exposure to stimuli for the further "development" of their lives and surroundings...
I think that "Tulsa Now" distancing itself from the Forum is like the chicken leaving the egg behind...
Unplugging the incubator..
Besides where else would you learn so many different ways to dispose of sh#t...
Mr. Patton,
If you spent less time promoting your personal and political agendas online, you might have caught the specific source noted in the third paragraph:
"Tulsa Comprehensive Wastewater System Study, issued February 2003, and in the Southside Wastewater Treatment Plant Odor Control Study, conducted from July 17 through September 30 of 2006."
P.S. We can take our disputes public if you like. As for me, I have bigger fish to fry.
Where is this fish fry you speak of? Am I invited?
I like catfish, if it's done right, properly cleaned and caught somewhere upstream from the treatment plant.
It's all water under the bridge.
Or sewer plant.
(Insert cliche here.)
And chiding RM for "promoting personal and political agendas online" is hypocritical.
Something smells for sure. Maybe David gets his fish to fry from the river.
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
Originally posted by The Artist.quote:
So why is it that the Tulsa Now organization wants to put some distance between itself and this Forum?
Actually that is a very good question.
The fact that they offer this Forum as a "public service" goes quite a ways towards making them legitimate... as a non profit... regardless of the Political portion of the Forum...
They are allowed a percentage of their activity to be political even when they become a 501 (c) (3).......
This "Forum" gives an individual the means to stay in touch with the volume of information offered here, a platform in which to pose questions to individuals that they may not gain audience with, and exposure to stimuli for the further "development" of their lives and surroundings...
I think that "Tulsa Now" distancing itself from the Forum is like the chicken leaving the egg behind...
Unplugging the incubator..
Besides where else would you learn so many different ways to dispose of sh#t...
Considering the topic, I was being facetious. [:P] Its quite obvious why lol. Heck, I try to distance myself from this forum and blame most of the stuff I say on here on my deranged evil twin. I am much more sane in public. Honest.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
So why is it that the Tulsa Now organization wants to put some distance between itself and this Forum?
...cause we forumers talk about flinging poop.
EEEEEEEEEExactly lol.
When I'm in Tulsa I offten run on the RiverSide jogging trail and I never noticed a smell around there -other than normal river smells. Maybe it's just me then.