I am surprised at the lack in number of comments about a riot memorial. Is Sully just pandering to the Black vote? Is this a TulsaWorld directive?
And for all the backers of downtown rejuvenation, what do you think?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070215_Ne_A1_Sulli60493
It's way past over due....
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I am surprised at the lack in number of comments about a riot memorial. Is Sully just pandering to the Black vote? Is this a TulsaWorld directive?
And for all the backers of downtown rejuvenation, what do you think?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070215_Ne_A1_Sulli60493
It's way past over due....
I think this is the perfect solution, Conservative Republican (shockingly) authors a measure that will easily gain black and liberal backers to create a memorial site that Tulsa can be proud of that will respectfully honor the worst episode of Tulsa's history while also honoring one of the city's greatest citizens who was a victim and survivor of those ugly days.
I think this is good news and way past due.
Personal attack removed
This memorial will help heal the hatred and intolerance exhibited by many in this part of the country....
Good idea by Sullivan. It was bound to happen for him eventually.
This memorial has been so long in coming not only because of ignorance regarding the extent of the riot, but also because Greenwood residents who were affected by the destruction, and their descendants, were pushing for reparations. The fear was that a Riot Memorial would finally close the book and end any possibility of reparations from the city, state, or federal government. Apparently the Greenwood community realized reparations weren't happening, and so they've engaged Sullivan and are moving forward.
This is a great thing for near North Tulsa.
I think it's a fantastic idea and it impresses me Sullivan (A person I typically disagree with on everything) is pushing for it. Kudos.
This issue surpasses any political party differences. This is an ethical issue. The victims of the race riot deserve to be remembered. It's time for Tulsa, and the United States, to recognize this terrible tradgedy. It's nice to see Sullivan uplifting this cause.
Wow, while I knew 'of' the Tulsa Race Riot I assumed in my ignorance that it was the same circumstances as many more modern race riots. That is to say, upset with the status quo a minority group burns down their own neighborhood (a la Waterloo Iowa, Detroit, LA...). Clearly cases were possibly justifiable outrage was used as an excuse by other members of the community for misguided acts.
I had no idea what the whole story was behind the Tulsa Race Riot. For those of you who share my ignorance, Wikipedia seems to have a pretty good account:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Race_Riot[b/]
(one section disputed, but the gist of it seems to be in harmony with other sources).
Prior to knowing what I was talking about, I would have been flatly against any reparations. Now, I think I would certainly consider proposals to compensate actual victims... but seeing as it is probably too late for most of them or too hard to prove it, a plan to help the greenwood community or build a memorial as a public apology seems appropriate and long over due.
The Tulsa Race Riot Report can be downloaded as a pdf from this site:
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/trrc/freport.htm
But be warned: It's a humongous file.
The report I found to be quite illuminating. It has a full history of the riot and effectively debunks some of the urban legends (that the Greenwood neighborhood also was bombed from planes).
I also agree with Sullivan on this move. I'm not sure why it took so long by anybody, though.
I fully support this memorial. I hope it gets the attention it deserves.
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Why does it do that?
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Why does it do that?
If the black community wants it so bad let them build it themselves. They obviously have the resources to do so but instead of doing that they just whine on and on about it.
Mean while the Cherokees are getting ready to build a culture center with their own money and Tulsa has a good chance of getting it located here.
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Why does it do that?
If the black community wants it so bad let them build it themselves. They obviously have the resources to do so but instead of doing that they just whine on and on about it.
Mean while the Cherokees are getting ready to build a culture center with their own money and Tulsa has a good chance of getting it located here.
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
I understand well what it was about and I'm sorry it happened.
But there will always be people like you Swake that will enjoy name calling when you wouldn't give a dime yourself. Or am I wrong Swake? Have you donated money already for this or have you offered any form of labor or etc in getting this built? Or are you one that just sits back and whines on and on about this place not getting built?
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
I understand well what it was about and I'm sorry it happened.
But there will always be people like you Swake that will enjoy name calling when you wouldn't give a dime yourself. Or am I wrong Swake? Have you donated money already for this or have you offered any form of labor or etc in getting this built? Or are you one that just sits back and whines on and on about this place not getting built?
I didn't whine, you are the who is whining.
And it is tax dollars that would pay for the memorial so it IS my money and I think this is a far better use of tax money than tax breaks for oil companies or cash transfers to Halliburton.
It's my tax dollars, too, and I don't have a problem with the memorial being built. A similar one should also be built in East St. Louis; the race riot that occurred there in 1917 was similar to Tulsa's in terms of loss of life.
http://www.exodusnews.com/HISTORY/History010.htm
Of course, the black community in Tulsa would have had more money for their memorial if their neighborhood hadn't been DESTROYED by a bunch of crackers. And, yes, insurance claims typically don't cover property losses due to "civil unrest."
It was domestic terrorism, pure and simple.
someone say "CRACKERS"?I like crackers in my soup!
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
I understand well what it was about and I'm sorry it happened.
But there will always be people like you Swake that will enjoy name calling when you wouldn't give a dime yourself. Or am I wrong Swake? Have you donated money already for this or have you offered any form of labor or etc in getting this built? Or are you one that just sits back and whines on and on about this place not getting built?
I didn't whine, you are the who is whining.
And it is tax dollars that would pay for the memorial so it IS my money and I think this is a far better use of tax money than tax breaks for oil companies or cash transfers to Halliburton.
thats why im against it. those that want to carry the guilt of a dead generation can donte and build the memorial. You all can buy little bricks with your name on it and have them placed around the memorial. the whole purpose of a memorial is to make people aware. I'm aware so I dont need a memorial. i suspect stuffing that memorial downtown in a place where most people go is not going to further the cause. Why not stick a sign on every city limits sign that says "Home of the Race Riot" That would make people aware.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
And it is tax dollars that would pay for the memorial so it IS my money
Well good for you Swake, Vision 3025 will be here before you know it.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
thats why im against it. those that want to carry the guilt of a dead generation can donte and build the memorial. You all can buy little bricks with your name on it and have them placed around the memorial. the whole purpose of a memorial is to make people aware. I'm aware so I dont need a memorial. i suspect stuffing that memorial downtown in a place where most people go is not going to further the cause. Why not stick a sign on every city limits sign that says "Home of the Race Riot" That would make people aware.
Well said Inteller. Or maybe they could sell t-shirts saying they are a "Forth Generation Survivor of the Almighty Tulsa Race Riots....1921-2007" to get money for their cause.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
I understand well what it was about and I'm sorry it happened.
But there will always be people like you Swake that will enjoy name calling when you wouldn't give a dime yourself. Or am I wrong Swake? Have you donated money already for this or have you offered any form of labor or etc in getting this built? Or are you one that just sits back and whines on and on about this place not getting built?
I didn't whine, you are the who is whining.
And it is tax dollars that would pay for the memorial so it IS my money and I think this is a far better use of tax money than tax breaks for oil companies or cash transfers to Halliburton.
thats why im against it. those that want to carry the guilt of a dead generation can donte and build the memorial. You all can buy little bricks with your name on it and have them placed around the memorial. the whole purpose of a memorial is to make people aware. I'm aware so I dont need a memorial. i suspect stuffing that memorial downtown in a place where most people go is not going to further the cause. Why not stick a sign on every city limits sign that says "Home of the Race Riot" That would make people aware.
Yeah!! And why we're at it, let's get rid of that stupid WWII memorial--my money shouldn't go to that, cuz I already know there was a WWII. And no more money for Gettysburg, the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, or the Washington Monument. I know all there is to know about those things. Come to think of it, to heck with any monument for the World Trade Center. It just brings up bad memories. Last thing we need is people reminding us of the past. I'd much rather just keep repeating it.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Whine about having the white side of town come and burn the black section killing maybe hundreds in the process? And the city police/government were at least criminally negligent in doing nothing trying to stop the riot and may well have been active and willing participants?
You either don't understand what this riot was or you are a complete racist.
I understand well what it was about and I'm sorry it happened.
But there will always be people like you Swake that will enjoy name calling when you wouldn't give a dime yourself. Or am I wrong Swake? Have you donated money already for this or have you offered any form of labor or etc in getting this built? Or are you one that just sits back and whines on and on about this place not getting built?
I didn't whine, you are the who is whining.
And it is tax dollars that would pay for the memorial so it IS my money and I think this is a far better use of tax money than tax breaks for oil companies or cash transfers to Halliburton.
thats why im against it. those that want to carry the guilt of a dead generation can donte and build the memorial. You all can buy little bricks with your name on it and have them placed around the memorial. the whole purpose of a memorial is to make people aware. I'm aware so I dont need a memorial. i suspect stuffing that memorial downtown in a place where most people go is not going to further the cause. Why not stick a sign on every city limits sign that says "Home of the Race Riot" That would make people aware.
Yeah!! And why we're at it, let's get rid of that stupid WWII memorial--my money shouldn't go to that, cuz I already know there was a WWII. And no more money for Gettysburg, the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, or the Washington Monument. I know all there is to know about those things. Come to think of it, to heck with any monument for the World Trade Center. It just brings up bad memories. Last thing we need is people reminding us of the past. I'd much rather just keep repeating it.
And while we're at it let's stop wasting money on tombstones, those people are dead! What's the point of any memorial really!? Wait, there's something about the name MEMORIAL....
me·mo·ri·al (m#601;-môr'#275;-#601;l, -m#333;r'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. Something, such as a monument or holiday, intended to celebrate or HONOR the memory of a person or an event.
or its a name of a street in Tulsa!
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Well, then write your Congressman.
Don't be a bigot about it.
Let's get rid of the OKC Bombing Memorial as well...waste of tax dollars!
[V]
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Well, then write your Congressman.
Don't be a bigot about it.
Why? The Cherokees are doing it with their own money. Unlike you white and black people wanting a handout from government to build it for you. Build it, I'm all for it but pay for it yourself.
Ok, compromise:
Tulsa will pay for the race riot memorial because it was instigated here and the City, County, State was negligent in not quelling the unrest. (Note: I didnt accuse them of being in on it, fairly obvious they werent actually in on it from the above linked accounts)
THEN, we can build the trail of tears memorial but get the Eastern States that ousted the Cherokees (et. al, sorry my trail of tears history isnt that good) to pay for it. We took them in (under the point of a federal gun) and sheltered them (poorly). Meanwhile, those fat rats out east took their land and harvested all the 'yellow metal that makes the white man go mad.' SOOOOOO... they pay for it, we get it.
Then the trifecta is in play, the Cherokee build their cultural center/museum downtown nearby and everyone is a winner!
Well, except the 'crackers' out East I suppose.
------------------------
Sincerely though, while I think a race riot memorial is appropriate I would like to see a contribution from the black community. No one asked Muslims to pay for the 911 memorial, or the Japanese Pearl Harbor, nor Germany the DC WWII memorial. Generally, people pay for their own memorials and dont ask others to do so for them.
I guess this opens the door to a huge sidetrack that the black community in Tulsa seems to be on the outside on all the goings ons and content watching events unfold. The only moving and shaking I hear, in my infinite ignorance Im sure, is the call for reparations. Considering the proud and prosperous past of the black community in Tulsa, I'm surprised at current state of affairs. Happy to discuss/be educated, probably a whole different thread though.
Per the trail of tears... I agree that something needs to be done on this account also. I'm confident this project would get a significant boost from the various tribes involved and perhaps the Imperial Federal Government that perpetrated it. Nearly everyone has heard of this event, yet few people know it ended in downtown Tulsa... purportedly at a tree that still stands. Again, seems like another thread and a project I would be more than willing to help with since I imagine it would be a ball that rolled downhill.
Perhaps TulsaNow could choose a project and help out sometime?
<cannon_fodder wrote:
Per the trail of tears... I agree that something needs to be done on this account also. I'm confident this project would get a significant boost from the various tribes involved and perhaps the Imperial Federal Government that perpetrated it. Nearly everyone has heard of this event, yet few people know it ended in downtown Tulsa... purportedly at a tree that still stands.
<end clip>
Unless I'm missing something, it's always been my understanding that the Trail of Tears ended at what is now Tahlequah, not Tulsa.
http://home.nps.gov/applications/parks/trte/ppMaps/ACF17B.jpg
http://www.rosecity.net/tears/trail/map.html
Which begs the question on why Porky and other dismissers of the Tulsa Race Riot Memorial suddenly care about another event that didn't happen here.
Using your logic Cannon, the Cherokees should pay for their own memorial. Or did I misread that?
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by Porky
I'd rather see a Trail of Tears memorial/museum built. Every time I hear that race riot museum brought up, it reminds me of the Whiners on Saturday Night Live.
Well, then write your Congressman.
Don't be a bigot about it.
Why? The Cherokees are doing it with their own money. Unlike you white and black people wanting a handout from government to build it for you. Build it, I'm all for it but pay for it yourself.
The Cherokee Nation is...which is a separate government. You know...like how the City of Tulsa represents black people. Get it?
And you've got no proof they wouldn't be using federal grants (on top of their own money) to build a memorial for the Trail of Tears. Which would really hurt your bigoted points/arguments.
[damnit, I closed the firefox tab by mistake and lost my post... starting over]
Yes, by my logic they should pay for it themselves.
However, to make a distinction that only a lawyer can appreciate; the Cherokees suffered from express government action that was even against the dictate of the Supreme Court of the United States. The race riot was a result public sentiment and a insufficient amount of governmental action. The difference between action and inaction is only further widened by the mandate of the highest court... which was ignored in the case of the Cherokees.
Anyway, the funding measure for such a thing would more than likely be funded in part by the federal government, the city, and the Cherokee nation probably in conjunction with their Cultural Center (much like a TIF I suppose).
I guess in the end of the day I do think the forced removal of 17,000 Cherokee and the taking of their lands after they had fully complied with a repressive federal treaty is a greater travesty than the inaction of a city/county government to protect several hundred citizens. 4,000 dead because of government action v. 400 because of inaction. 24 Blocks of property destroyed v. thousands of acres stolen for gold. Then again, this is comparing one horrible act to another, which is a petty endeavor.
and FYI, the trail was several exodus' that took various routes with various ending places including Fort Smith, Evansville, and the majority in Tehlequah. I was under the impression that the tribe chose the Council Oak to restart their new lives in what is now downtown Tulsa. There is already a Georgia state park and memorial dedicated to the trail, since they started it and all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears#Gold_rush_and_court_cases
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Which begs the question on why Porky and other dismissers of the Tulsa Race Riot Memorial suddenly care about another event that didn't happen here.
I have no problem with this memorial as long as taxes aren't used to pay for it.
The Trail of Tears center is being paid for by the Cherokees and not with tax dollars.
As another poster stated if the Black/White Community was putting private funding into this Race Riot Memorial I too may see where a city tax would be allowed to contribute but just an out right total funding of this project through taxation is completely wrong in my opinion, as any other Memorial.
And as far as where the Cherokees settled along the Trail of Tears, they settled all over the place. In Territory's that are now Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas and Oklahoma. Some of the rich ones even went on up to Ohio to settle.
Side Note: The Cherokee's relocated with 2,000 African slaves that they owned. So I guess they need a memorial too. Memorials for all!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Side Note: The Cherokee's relocated with 2,000 African slaves that they owned. So I guess they need a memorial too. Memorials for all!
yeah, isnt that why Muscogee has a black concentration?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Side Note: The Cherokee's relocated with 2,000 African slaves that they owned. So I guess they need a memorial too. Memorials for all!
The africans demanded 401ks and healthcare,now they have mexicans!
WOW!!! I usuaslly sit in the background and read, seeing where people are coming from. But wow! Where to begin?
1. I was initially pleased to see that there were those on this board who were taking the time to learn the truth about Tulsa's ugly little secret. An event that really isn't a secret anymore, but with recent exposure the last few years is known world wide. The exposure spurred the report and the more recent efforts by a certain politician.
2. Although the report contains good detail, it certainly left out some of the more gross acts. These were left out because they could not be "verified". I guess first hand accounts were not enough. rwarn is correct, it was domestic terrorism. The worst act since WWII. And the government did play an active role by deputizing the mob that destroyed.
3. I knew that negative opinions would materialize. But, I am shocked to the extent. I am especially dis-heartened to know that it still exists in the city where it occurred. Some say that why should generations removed pay for it. Or, I know about it, why a memorial. But the point is, the community as a whole has not acknowledged it..for GENERATIONS! You have to acknowledge it before you get over it! And that hasn't happened in Tulsa! As seen in our current race relations.
4. The Black Community should pay for it..Porky can kiss my @ss because we know that Indian Tribes are now benefiting enormously from arrangments that US Government has made as means of "Compensation". Casinos, Smoke Shops, etc. That's why they have funds to build whatever they want. I have never had a problem with the Tribes getting these sweet deals. Because I feel that there is a certain compensation due them. But can I quantify that? No! And no one can. So whatever they get, I take with a grain of salt and live my life.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Nothing here either
i smell a thread-lock
Hopefully it can be avoided.
I mistyped...NOT since WWII has there been that type of Domestic Terrorism.
Responses to deleted posts were removed
What all of the memorial naysayers are forgetting here is that the memorial is meant to be for the vicitms of the race riot. The memorial isn't for you and it certainly isn't meant to be some sort of tourist attraction. If you were the victim of a terrible tragedy would you just want everyone to forget about it, or would you want the event to be remembered, so that future generations could learn from the mistakes of their ancestors?
I suppose the rest of the world should have just forgot about the Holocaust, too. I mean I've heard all about it so why should anyone else need to? Besides I'm not Jewish anyway, what about my people's struggle? We have problems too ya know!!!
There isn't enough sarcasm in the world for you people. Who do you think you are?
Sullivan's modus operandi: Declaring victory by press release. Remember SONIA (Secure Our Nation's Interior Act)? Sullivan's victory is not ushering the Bill to completion, his 'victory' was submitting the Bill and then using a straw man 'some people don't like this' to make himself look like a hero.
I think that counts. I think comparing Tulsa race riot to the Holocaust is essentially calling one party a Nazi.
I hereby invoke Godwin's Law (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law%22) and declare this conversation over.