I'm kinda surprised nobody's talked about Saturday night's business down the street from the Blue Dome...
Dozens of squad cars... owner of the bar I was at guessed the helicopter was shining a light on
The Ministry and it turned out he was right... he said it seems to happen on a regular basis???
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=120146
quote:
Two people are injured after a shooting at a Downtown Tulsa nightclub. Someone opened fire at the "Ministry of Sound" on 2nd and Green wood around 2 a.m. Sunday, police said.
Two teenagers were taken to the hospital with gunshot wounds. Police say a bullet went through a 15-year-old male's neck and into an 18-year-old male's head. The biggest challenge for officers on the scene was crowd control.
(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/214/094949d3-5b4e-42f3-89cb-0c480379488f.jpg)
So,what's a 15-year-old doing at a nightclub around 2 a.m.?
Supposedly, he wouldn't be allowed inside:
http://www.oklahomanightlife.com/listings/bars-and-clubs/the-ministry-of-sound/details/
They weren't real clear whether it was inside or outside.
Isn't Kitchell running that place?
My wife and I were in the Blue Dome district on Friday and when we left (11:30ish) that place was hoppin'.
Too many stupid people in this world, ruining a night of fun for whatever reason and very well ruining someones business.
Are they even allowed to call it the ministry of sound?
I was under the impression the name was a trademark of a record label.
(http://www.openmusic.ru/articles-respond-free/0274-ministry_of_sound/0274-ministry_of_sound_01.jpg)
Living in the Philtower, I heard the sirens and got up to look out my bedroom window which faces NE... saw all of the lights and then heard the shots fired. I could not see everything going on but I commented to my wife that this isn't exactly adding to the positive feelings about living downtown. I know this kind of stuff can happen at any night club but incidents such as this are not good for downtown redevelopment....
What kind of establishment is that...Sounds similar to Goodfellas that was just North and slightly East of Arnies....
Kitchell is a public nuisance along with his night clubs. How he is able to get anyone to lease to him or vend to him is beyond me. My understanding has been for a long time that he cannot get a liquor license in Oklahoma, that he uses proxies to do it.
We were downtown Saturday night and they definitely have a very visible police presence in the area.
We had gone to the Sound Pony to hear my step son's band. There were several fights out on Main St. after the Cage Fights crowd left the Cain's. Nothing like a little cage fighting to get the testosterone up, eh?
This does sort of cancel out the photo-op from the day before (with all the horse cops and enhanced patrols). Oh, if only the bad guys would learn to read the Whirled.
(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/640/094949d3-5b4e-42f3-89cb-0c480379488f.jpg)
...and how can you possibly have crime with all those Acorn lights bearing down on you like that? [;)]
In all seriousness, though, theres not much that could happen here that wouldnt also happen at 71st & Memorial or 61st & Peoria.
I think it's a little more likely at 61st and Peoria than 71st and Memorial...check out the crime map on tulsapolice.org...but anywhere you have clubs this sort of nonsense happens.
The TPD blog has a little about this:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/tpdblog/~3/89461531/its_0230_am_im_.html
How many people have to die at Kitchell clubs before we can be rid of him?
quote:
Originally posted by Ed W
The TPD blog has a little about this:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/tpdblog/~3/89461531/its_0230_am_im_.html
Thanks for the link! That website is a new discovery for me- and very interesting stuff.
Just read an article about this on KOTV.com (channel 6 news).
15-year-olds at a night club downtown? That's insane. On top of that, the parents of the injured 15-year-olds plan to protest the re-opening of the club on Thursday!!
Uhmmm... I'm sorry but the parents should feel pretty dumb in the first place not knowing that their kids are sneaking into a nightclub.
And a nightclub downtown?
Perhaps I'm being naive on this, but personally I would expect bullets to be flying at a club in downtown Tulsa. The place is scummy, and after 5:00, when all the people who are forced to work there go home, only the shady folks remain.
Throw in a nightclub, and you would have to be a)on a deathwish, or b)just plain stupid to hang out there.
Hawkins, you are naive. Downtown Tulsa is a great place to enjoy an evening. I've worked downtown in restaurants and bars for over 5 years. That club (Ministry) in particular has always attracted a bad element (Operating under several differetn names).
If there were gunshots at McNellie's, Arnies, Tsunami, or any other establishment, I would be shocked. Downtown is safe. If you've never spent an evening downtown for food and/or drinks, you are missing out. Support local business, go downtown.
Hawkins, the way you sound, it's you've never actually visited a city.
Hawkins uses every opportunity to claim that downtown is scary, dangerous, confusing, deserted -- whatever he can think of to slam the area. All while talking up south Tulsa.
I think it's time for an addition to the ignore list...wouldn't be missing any posts of any value that's for sure.
As I stated earlier, I was just in that area the day before. Went to the Ballet, a diner, and Arnies... all without getting shot at.
That club, under various names, has always seemed to be an issue.
People have been killed or badly hurt at Kitchell's clubs for years, many times at the hands of his staff. He's the common denominator. This has happened at Clubs he owned downtown, on Brookside, at 66th and Mingo, at 81st and Memorial and in the Brady. Don't blame downtown, blame this owner, this has type of crap has happened at his clubs for decades and all over town.
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Hawkins uses every opportunity to claim that downtown is scary, dangerous, confusing, deserted -- whatever he can think of to slam the area. All while talking up south Tulsa.
I think it's time for an addition to the ignore list...wouldn't be missing any posts of any value that's for sure.
Now.. now..MINI.... you must understand Hawkins has one of those paranoia conditions.... Just look at how Hawkins goes to lunch at the Country Club....
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/karima.jpg)
[8D]
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=120241
Protest Planned At Downtown Tulsa Nightclub
KOTV - 2/12/2007 4:28 PM - Updated 2/13/2007 9:06 AM
Two teenagers fight for their lives after being shot at a downtown Tulsa nightclub. A 15-year-old boy was shot in the neck at the Ministry of Sound nightclub, said police. The bullet went through his neck and into the face of 18-year-old Jeremy Lin. Lin underwent his second surgery remove bullet fragments from his brain on Monday.
News On 6 anchor Tami Marler spoke exclusively with the Lin family about their outrage over the club's practices.
It took more than 50-officers to control the crowd outside of the Ministry of Sound, located at 3rd and Greenwood, after gunshots rang out inside the bar late Saturday night.
15-year-old Jesse Lin was one of several underage kids who got into the club.
"I just walked up to the door and there was a bouncer there and he asked me if I was over 21, he said under and gave me a stamp and let me in," Lin said.
The club has changed names several times, but remained under the same management and drawn the same types of violent acts. This time, Jesse's brother Jeremy was caught in the middle.
"People was throwing bottles and my brother stepped up on a chair, and then we heard a gunshot and everybody got down," said Lin "I thought he was just hiding and I saw that he was bleeding."
"My son took his coat off and put pressure on his brother's head to keep him from bleeding to death," said the boys mother Kelly Lin.
She got the overnight phone call that every parent dreads.
"My son was shot in the face and went behind the eyes and it's lodged behind the eye," she said.
Lin says surgeons put Jeremy's chances at 50-50, and if he does survive the boy who was on the road to graduation will be lucky to be on a long road to recovery.
"He's blind in his left eye, and right now we don't have movement in his left side," said Kelly.
Kelly wants other parents to know the Ministry is planning to open again, for a Mardi Gras celebration that she fears will be just as bloody.
"Parents don't need to do this, neither do kids," she said. "This bar does not need to open for it. I will protest against it."
Underage kids may think it's cool to slip past the law, but Jesse Lin has some advice.
"Don't go there, you don't need to be around them. They're getting drunk and acting crazy. They don't need to go there," he said.
Police and patrons estimate 1,200 to 1,500 people were at the club Saturday night. Witnesses say they knew several underage kids there, and some were drinking beer.
The Ministry is scheduled to re-open on Thursday, and the Lin family plan to be there in protest.
Tulsa Police tell us Steve Kitchell, the club's owner, offered to contribute $10,000 to the Crimestoppers reward fund to find the shooter.
I think a big part of the problem is allowing 18 to 20 year olds into clubs where beer is served. You are begging for trouble. Why Oklahoma law allows this is beyond me. It seems like most of the problems are caused by the under 21's that are getting in and hanging out in the area.
Kitchell doesn't give two s***s as long as he is making money, and paying his vendors as little of it as he can get away with. Trouble follows him around because he is pandering to a very young crowd and he knows people under 21 are getting beer once inside his club, but he just doesn't care because it's making him money.
Hawkins' view of downtown and his view on about every other issue I've seen him comment on here is very myopic.
The Blue Dome is a frequent haunt for me, and the reason there are no problems with places like Arnie's is because Chris and JoAnn don't put up with crap and since they serve liquor, you can't get in if you are under 21. You also don't see problems with the restaurants in the area.
I hope the family of the injured boy sues. Should not have been there, certainly should not have stood on a chair when he heard a commotion.
I was recommending downtown to some NSU students for clubbing, and they expressed concerns about their safety, but said they would be more interested if they knew people down there.
Maybe I missed it, but on top of the fact the club was letting underaged people in, why does a mother let her 15yr old go club-hopping at 2am?
Conan wrote:
I think a big part of the problem is allowing 18 to 20 year olds into clubs where beer is served. You are begging for trouble. Why Oklahoma law allows this is beyond me. It seems like most of the problems are caused by the under 21's that are getting in and hanging out in the area.
<end clip>
I'm stunned to know this is the case in Oklahoma. In my home state, allowing kids under 21 in saloons has been outlawed for at least a decade, probably longer.
I guess I didn't know because the bar where I go seldom has anyone under 50. [:I]
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Hawkins uses every opportunity to claim that downtown is scary, dangerous, confusing, deserted -- whatever he can think of to slam the area. All while talking up south Tulsa.
I think it's time for an addition to the ignore list...wouldn't be missing any posts of any value that's for sure.
Now.. now..MINI.... you must understand Hawkins has one of those paranoia conditions.... Just look at how Hawkins goes to lunch at the Country Club....
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/karima.jpg)
[8D]
Nice pic! Love it.
Am I being myopic around here?
Death is permanent. Chances of death resulting from visiting a packed nightclub in downtown <any large city USA> = higher than average.
Chances of death resulting from shoplifting incident at a large retailer = extremely low, and should NEVER happen.
These have been my recent posts and I don't think its myopic to state such opinions.
I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do. Its not just gunfire, but fights, pills slipped in drinks, and over-the-top bouncers that one also needs to worry about in these clubs... whether they are downtown or not.
There I said it, but downtown still = slightly higher risk in my book.
Slightly higher risk compared to what? Staying at home and quaking in fear under the covers of your bedsheets?
I guess there would be higher risk in comparison. But it'd sure be a crappy way to live.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Conan wrote:
I think a big part of the problem is allowing 18 to 20 year olds into clubs where beer is served. You are begging for trouble. Why Oklahoma law allows this is beyond me. It seems like most of the problems are caused by the under 21's that are getting in and hanging out in the area.
<end clip>
I'm stunned to know this is the case in Oklahoma. In my home state, allowing kids under 21 in saloons has been outlawed for at least a decade, probably longer.
I guess I didn't know because the bar where I go seldom has anyone under 50. [:I]
RW, Oklahoma is full of odd laws. By definition of Oklahoma law 3.2 beer is a "non-intoxicating beverage". I've been $h!t faced on this non-intoxicating beverage. [xx(]
I believe there are also differing jurisdictions for bars that sell only 3.2 beer (I believe OTC) and bars that sell liquor, wine, and high-point beer (ABLE commission). So long as restaurants under ABLE jurisdiction sell more than 50% (might be 60%, been awhile since I checked) in food, all ages are welcome in the restaurant, only over 21 in the restricted bar area. If the majority of the business is alcohol, no one under the age of 21 is allowed in the building.
For some odd reason people over 18 and under 21 are allowed into 3.2 beer bars. I have no idea why that is, but it's a recipe for disaster and has happened over and over again. There might have been a pretty strong lobby for college town bars, who knows?
For the most part, there are responsible restaurant and bar owners out there. However, there are some who don't care at all about the safety of their patrons nor that of the general public. I take it somewhat personal.
My brother was killed six years ago by a drunk driver. The person who hit him arrived at a bar around 5:30 on a weeknight with a companion, they were served five pitchers of beer in the ensuing hour and a half- between two people. They were asked to leave when they got rowdy.
The witness statement from the bartender said she helped the driver into her vehicle. Less than five minutes later four lives were snuffed out.
All they had to do was call the cops or call a cab. They made the poor decision to A) serve people who by some accounts were already intoxicated, and B) allow someone who can't even walk straight to their car to drive off instead of calling a cab.
Having worked for a vendor who had business dealings with Kitchell in the past and being an infrequent visitor to his various clubs over the years, my opinion is that he falls into the group of bar owners that doesn't care about anything but making money.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Maybe I missed it, but on top of the fact the club was letting underaged people in, why does a mother let her 15yr old go club-hopping at 2am?
Some parents like to use nightclubs for babysitters, don't ya know???? [:O]
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
There I said it, but downtown still = slightly higher risk in my book.
Saying downtown is more dangerous than the rest of the city is a broad stroke. At times when Kitchell has been out of business down there, it stays pretty quiet. Any of the clubs which are only 21 and over stay pretty docile for the most part.
Catering to an immature crowd is nothing but trouble waiting to happen.
Without trying to sound racist, or bigoted about age (I'm sure someone will take me to task for it) but when they play rap and hip-hop and allow people under 21 in, they are attracting a dangerous crowd. Clubs like this are a small minority of the downtown night life.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Maybe I missed it, but on top of the fact the club was letting underaged people in, why does a mother let her 15yr old go club-hopping at 2am?
Some parents like to use nightclubs for babysitters, don't ya know???? [:O]
I think the parents or guardians of the underage patrons are the real ones to blame here. When I was 15, I was home and in bed by 10:30 PM every night. I know times have changed, but the parents are still responsible for their minor children. If it can be shown that the bar owner/staff knowingly and willfully allowed minors in violation of laws, then they share the blame with the parents 50/50.
What kind of place is this Ministry of Sound? Is it a live music venue? I had never heard of it until this shooting incident hit the fan.
I have only been in one Kitchell club, the Majestic. They also have a similar 18-20 policy on Sunday nights I believe. 18-20 are allowed in until midnite, when it becomes 21+ only. How this admission policy can be efficiently enforced is beyond me, especially when you have a dark club full of 500+ people, music blaring, etc. I know of no violence or trouble at Majectic, but it is probably only a matter of time.
Is The Ministry of Sound part of the Blue Dome TIF district?
Just asking.
[quote
I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.
[/quote]
I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.
I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!
Don't blame the mother.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.
I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.
I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!
Don't blame the mother.
How is the fact that you were somewhat delinquent when you were younger an excuse for a parents lack of supervision of her children..?
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
I saw one of the parents on the 6 in the Morning news, and while I do feel sympathy for her, I cannot help but wonder if she knew her child was entering an 18-and-over nightclub downtown. That is something I would never allow a loved one to do.
I just saw the mother on Ch 6 news too. She didn't know her sons were at a club. They were supposed to be staying at a friends house. Kids slip under the radar no matter how hard you try.
I went to a Key Club convention in Dallas when I was that age. A Kiwanis highschool business club. Somehow I ended up in a club with strippers and gangsters (it had been owned by Jack Ruby). The guy at the door said I could come in but couldn't buy beer. At 15 yrs of age I saw Chris Colt and her twin 45's!
Don't blame the mother.
How is the fact that you were somewhat delinquent when you were younger an excuse for a parents lack of supervision of her children..?
Look, I was a "good" kid. Yet, I slipped out my upstairs window, shimmied down the gutter and went out with my friends when I was younger than that. God was watching me for sure as I never got in serious trouble. When it comes to fooling your parents as a teenager its not a fair fight.
Ever heard of "I'm spending the night at Jeff's house. His parents will be out for the evening and we'll be playing basketball in the back". That way when the phone doesn't answer you have an alibi. Meanwhile Jeff tells his parents the same thing and each parent slips up and believes.
Sorry for the shooting but the mom is retarded... She is going to protest the club???? Why??? You can't say anything about this...
Look what she had to say
quote:
Lin says her 18 and 15-year-old sons told her they were going to a friend's house to practice break-dancing. Someone suggested they use the Ministry's dance floor, and while she visited her father in the hospital they were off to the club. Now 18-year-old Jeremy is in the hospital with bullet fragments in his head.
She has to be lying somewhere-- They went to there friends house to Break dance??? Yeah and Paul Tay is not riding his bike on the roadway anymore...
quote:
Originally posted by TulsaMINI
Hawkins uses every opportunity to claim that downtown is scary, dangerous, confusing, deserted -- whatever he can think of to slam the area. All while talking up south Tulsa.
I think it's time for an addition to the ignore list...wouldn't be missing any posts of any value that's for sure.
Obviously Hawkins is naive here, but there are thousands of others in suburban Tulsa who have the same uninformed opinion. Hawkins is one small piece of Tulsa's vast unrecognized, unsolicited market. Tulsa suffers from what the marketing field calls "marketing myopia", which is the failure to recognize the scope of one's business.
Unrealized potential is un-marketed potential.
Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located? Did each of these clubs have the same owner? All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18? Have they ever heard of liability or risk management? There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink. Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people. I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco. There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located? Did each of these clubs have the same owner? All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18? Have they ever heard of liability or risk management? There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink. Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people. I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco. There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.
Not the same location. Same owner/operator, but different buildings.
And for Hawkins, blaming downtown for this is the epitome of stupidity. I guess when Kitchell ran the club out at 81st & memorial and had the same kinds of problems, that meant the south side was a derelict, crime-ridden wasteland, too? Wherever he opens a club, that's where the problems are.
These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"
People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else. The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?
My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.
quote:
Ever heard of "I'm spending the night at Jeff's house. His parents will be out for the evening and we'll be playing basketball in the back". That way when the phone doesn't answer you have an alibi. Meanwhile Jeff tells his parents the same thing and each parent slips up and believes.
Yeah, that worked in the 80's.
If you are a parent and fall for it in this day and age, you are a fool.
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"
People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else. The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?
My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.
The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.
So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"
People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else. The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?
My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.
The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.
So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?
I never said Kitchell was a steller business man. I worked in one of his clubs for over a year and I know firsthand how he operates.
Parents these days want to blame everything that happens to their kids on everyone else.
If a child crosses a busy intersection on a NO WALK sign, the driver that hits the kid is blamed for the accident.
These kids need a thumb put on them at all times. My kid is a great kid, but because of her age I still don't trust her. I question everything she does. They have too many bad influences and temptations coming at them constantly. You cannot let your guard down but at the same time if they hang out at a barber shop every week and eventually get a haircut, don't blame the barber.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Is the Ministry of Sound in the same location "Studio 54" and Club Omega were located? Did each of these clubs have the same owner? All of these clubs seemed to be very poorly managed- what were they thinking allowing anyone in a nightclub under 18? Have they ever heard of liability or risk management? There are thousands of clubs in other cities that allow 18 & ups, and require wristbands for 21 & ups to drink. Most of these clubs employ huge bouncers that walk around randomly ID-ing people. I have relatives that have to go through metal detectors when they enter nightclubs in a wealthy suburb of San Francisco. There needs to be a citywide security requirement for clubs with certain occupancy capabilities, no matter where they're located.
Any "public gathering place" such as a bar or restaurant has an occupancy permit. It's based on square footage and, I believe, a couple of other criteria.
Problem is, there isn't enough manpower to police bar owners who won't police themselves. If police are constantly hounding a bar, the owner could claim harrassment.
My understanding is the fire marshall's office is primarily responsible for enforcing occupancy. If a club is regulated by ABLE (only falls in their jurisdiction if liquor is served) they can fine owners for underage drinking or any other infraction based on their laws.
According to the Tulsa Whirled this morning, 3.2 beer clubs are regulated by the city. The story also went on to talk about Steve Kitchell's reputation as a public nuisance (my digest of the story).
I don't believe there is any way to declare a bar owner or operator as a "public nuisance" and keep them from re-appearing on the scene. The Ministry of Sound is "owned" by Joe Kitchell III, Steve's brother, and Steve is the "operator".
The Kitchell family has played shell games for years to get around various issues with ABLE, OTC, the city, and creditors. IMHO, they probably have such a convoluted series of LLC's and Inc.'s that they are paupers on paper. You can also be assured that their corporation's assets at any given time are $10K or less, and I'd bet most of the equipment in their bars are leased. So a civil suit against them is going to net nothing.
The only way to stop incidents like this is for legislation banning anyone under 21 being allowed into bars. The Kitchell's have figured out how to manipulate the system and are masters at it. If Ministry of Sound is shut down, they will re-appear somewhere else under a different name.
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
These are the type of people that cause us to have stickers on a hairdryer that says "DANGER: DO NOT USE IN THE BATHTUB OR SHOWER"
People need to quit blaming their problems on everyone else. The only question this mother needs to ask is why in the hell did she not know where her son was at 2:30 in the morning?
My 15 year old could not step 10 feet outside of this house at 9PM without us being all over her.
The one thing they never tell people about Tulsa before they move here is the judgemental attitudes we are all so proud of. The mother's child is laying in bed with a bullet in his head, a 50/50 chance of surviving. It can't be the fault of a purveyor of alcohol to minors whose clubs routinely allow underage people into them and are known to be trouble prone. BTW the one with the bullet in his head is 18 and was allowed in legally. Why, he's just a good businessman providing a needed service to the community by acting as attractive nuisance to poorly supervised young people. Not his fault.
So it must be the fault of the single mother of two teenage boys. So far she is retarded, a liar, ignorant and obviously a poor parent. Ah, the judgemental arrogance of the smug. Can we put that on our Chamber of Commerce fliers?
I never said Kitchell was a steller business man. I worked in one of his clubs for over a year and I know firsthand how he operates.
Parents these days want to blame everything that happens to their kids on everyone else.
If a child crosses a busy intersection on a NO WALK sign, the driver that hits the kid is blamed for the accident.
These kids need a thumb put on them at all times. My kid is a great kid, but because of her age I still don't trust her. I question everything she does. They have too many bad influences and temptations coming at them constantly. You cannot let your guard down but at the same time if they hang out at a barber shop every week and eventually get a haircut, don't blame the barber.
I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.
Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.
You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.
quote:
I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.
Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.
You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.
You are making assumptions about my statement. I never said it was OK to hit the kid, but if the accident is unavoidable generally the driver will be to blame. Nevermind the fact that the kid just stepped out into traffic.
I also never said I only had one child. We have three.
And you hit the nail on the head. There is no safety in life.
Get over it.
So what is your solution to the issue?
quote:
Originally posted by Rob
quote:
I can't agree with anything you've written except that you didn't mention Kitchell. Nor did you call her retarded. I answered several posts at once.
Your viewpoint is common. Too common. And wrong. Why do you carry insurance Rob? When that child crosses against the "don't walk" sign it does not give you permission or the right to run over him because he doesn't obey. As a driver you're supposed to watch and be alert for pedestrians. We value human life more than obedience in this culture. Insurance covers your behind.
You have one child. A girl. And perhaps two parents to watch over her. Maybe extended family. Try having several boys and a single parent then come back and lecture. You represent what a lot of naive people believe. That they can somehow protect their kids from the real world if they just circle the wagons and keep the thumb down with enough pressure. Walls around the neighborhood, security cameras, church, private schools. Well, guess what. There is no safety in life. None. Even if you are so lucky as to keep your daughter from trouble, that in itself will weaken her when she escapes to the real world.
You are making assumptions about my statement. I never said it was OK to hit the kid, but if the accident is unavoidable generally the driver will be to blame. Nevermind the fact that the kid just stepped out into traffic.
I also never said I only had one child. We have three.
And you hit the nail on the head. There is no safety in life.
Get over it.
So what is your solution to the issue?
I didn't make assumptions, I made inferences. The first step would be to stop blaming parents for every mis-step of their children. Too easy. Next might be compassion and insight. People act like this woman dropped her kids off at a drinking trough. Besides having the shock of her son being shot she has to endure the judgement of people with no knowledge or appreciation of circumstances calling her names and jumping to conclusions.
And lastly, I would listen to what Conan wrote and do something before the Kitchell Plan becomes acceptable.
Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?
Well of course. Does anyone know who they are and why they did it? I heard there were 1500 people in the place. Sure seemed high to me.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?
Now MH you know that is not the way it works.......
You blame the system that created the little ba#*a&^$.......
After all the system allowed the kids to get in the club..
the system allowed the firearms to be on the street...
the system taught them it was OK to pop some caps in a crowded bar..
And the system has allowed the citizens of Tulsa.... such fine upstanding citizens such as Mister Kitchell to not be able to run a business without this sort of thing happening every so often...
No One is to blame but the system..!
[}:)]
Never heard of that place, and hope I never hear about it again.
Here's the irony: According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18. If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents). When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could. If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible. Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.
Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot. It's not my place. She may be the best mother in the world. Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.
I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer. My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble. I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents. Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.
There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.
I will make one comment about what I think has made a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation. Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes. I was neither. They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far. I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.
Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them. There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life. Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.
Does anyone really expect that kids/young adults would leave a club just because an announcement was made? Not hardly. Why do these same kids try to make false ID's...for the same reason they are trying to get in. It should be a requirement for every single ID to be checked or change the club to 21 and over.
Last but not least, I have from a very reliable news source, that reporters contacted Crimestoppers to ask about the 10,000 reward that Steve Kitchell announced he had done to catch the shooter. Crimestoppers did not know anything about it and had not heard from Kitchell. I would like to know if he actually ever did anything...I guess he would have to follow through since he announced it on the news. He made it sound like on the news that he was working hand in hand with Crimestoppers to solve this crime.
If you do not know Steve Kitchell, he is a terrible person. Very very evil! He believes he is above the law. It seems as though the Tulsa police force is afraid of him. I think that Tulsa vendors and public need to boycott him. Vendors should not sell to him and the public should not go to his establishments. Unfortunately, most people in Tulsa don't realize how bad of a person he is. Only those people who have had dealings with him or know someone who has. He is not just a bad businessman...he is again a very evil person. I saw online that he is going through court proceedings for assaulting a man. In fact, I heard from someone that he was an elderly man. We need Kitchell out of Tulsa and out of Oklahoma.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Here's the irony: According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18. If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents). When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could. If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible. Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.
Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot. It's not my place. She may be the best mother in the world. Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.
I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer. My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble. I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents. Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.
There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.
I will make one comment about what I think has made a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation. Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes. I was neither. They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far. I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.
Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them. There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life. Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.
Geez. That's what I'm saying too. How did we end up on different ends of the political spectrum?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Here's the irony: According to law anyhow, I'm responsible and liable for my kids until they reach 18. If my 17 year old daughter causes a wreck with bodily harm or death, I'm held responsible even though I'm not the one who ran a red light or whatever (thank God after a year of driving- no accidents). When she had surgery last year, she couldn't sign a single form only her mother or myself could. If one of my daughters vandalizes public or private property, I'd be held responsible. Parents do have a legal and moral responsibility for their kids.
Without personally knowing the parents of these kids, I'm not going to blame the mother or try to make a commentary that she's somehow failed and as a result her 15 year old child has been shot. It's not my place. She may be the best mother in the world. Lashing out at her without knowing the whole back-story is presumptuous.
I too was one of those kids who would sneak out of the house and managed to talk my way into Parties on Brookside, The Tap Room, Arnies, et. al. and managed to get beer. My mother wasn't inattentive, so far as she knew I was a responsible young man and she did give me a fairly long leash since so far as she knew I wasn't out getting in trouble. I did a pretty good job of painting positive pictures of the kids I hung around with who had inattentive parents. Fortunately, I never got into any serious trouble.
There are still stories I've never told her 25 years later, because they would curl her toenails and I'd just as soon forget some of the incidents all together.
I will make one comment about what I think has made a difference in the types of kids my children choose for friends, vs. who I was hanging out with and what they consider worthwhile recreation. Both have been very involved in youth programs at their Church and are dedicated athletes. I was neither. They don't see drinking and night clubs as exciting alternatives for spending their time- so far. I feel like the small sacrifice in time that I've made in going to Church on Sunday and trying to make every single meet or game has made a difference.
Parents can stay involved in their children's lives without "keeping a thumb" on them. There is a difference in being involved and trying to control a child's life. Those that feel controlled, rather than guided will lash out the worst.
Geez. That's what I'm saying too. How did we end up on different ends of the political spectrum?
Must be that I'm a closet lib and you are a closet neo-con [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
Perhaps I'm being naive on this, but personally I would expect bullets to be flying at a club in downtown Tulsa. The place is scummy, and after 5:00, when all the people who are forced to work there go home, only the shady folks remain.
I'm total scum when I go see shows at the Cain's or Brady...or grab a beer at McNellie's.
I'm total scum...
Or, you're just a wimp.
Yeah...you're a wimp.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?
Ding ding.
From reading the "Clubbin" blog at www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm I do not get the impression that the police are fond of those clubs either. And I'm sure they are not fond of Kitchell?
I'll bet Tulsa Police officers don't let their kids go to those places if they can control it. But they cannot control the law that allows these types of clubs to operate.
I believe that our state legislators should be made aware of this, but is there not some municipal ordinaces that could be amended or changed so that these types of clubs can't sell beer when those under eighteen (or twenty one) are in the building.
They aren't serving food.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
Is anyone going to blame the person who shot the two kids?
Ding ding.
You are absolutely right, the main blame lies on the person that shot the gun. I apologize for not mentioning this in my previous posts. But it does not answer the question as to why the underage victim(s) were at the club in the first place. The issue gets more complicated by the minute. Who fired the gun? Where did he/she get it? Why was a 15-year-old in a nightclub at 2:00 AM?
I saw this video linked in a discussion elsewhere:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJFEiWOi6M
Supposedly that is Kitchell at the front door while dozens of kids walk right into the side door (left side of the video). Instead of saying he simply doesn't give a crap about it, I'm thinking this is actually his business strategy. Being open after 2 is also part of it, since everything else closes down, everyone still out and about makes a beeline for his place.
Parents Protest Downtown Club
KOTV - 2/15/2007 10:03 PM - Updated 2/15/2007 10:11 PM
About a dozen people protested in front a downtown Tulsa club Thursday evening. It is the same club, in which an 18 year old was shot in the face last weekend. He still can't see or walk. The club called 'The Ministry' has come under criticism for having kids as young as 15 in the club, well after curfew.
News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright reports Thursday night was first night the club has been open since the shooting. The club manager says he plans to make 'The Ministry' an 18 and over club.
In researching the property at 514 East 2nd Street, the News On 6 learned the co-owner of the building that houses the club is a convicted sex offender.
Thursday evening, Kelly Lin and some friends, stood across from 'The Ministry,' holding up signs for about an hour. Her son, Jeremy Lin was one of about 1,400 people in the club last weekend, when customers say a fight broke out and someone fired shots. "We gotta stop businesses like this, not just one, there's more out there, no checking of ID's, no searching. If they're not searched, this is what happens," says Kelly Lin.
A Tulsa man who says he has an interest in downtown says he's concerned this club is going to have the same problems as other ones in Tulsa that have been managed by Steve Kitchell. The man is also friends with Debbie Henry. Debbie's son Scott Bolton was killed outside another Kitchell club in downtown Tulsa. A bouncer faces a manslaughter trial next week for punching Bolton, causing him to fall and hit his head.
The kids at 'The Ministry' last weekend say things were out of control. One of those teens, identified only as Keena says, "there was people smoking stuff they're not supposed to be smoking in a club, underage people drinking, too many people inside the club."
George Sabo co-owns the building that houses 'The Ministry' club. Public records show he was convicted in the late 1990's for sexually abusing his girlfriend's 8 year old daughter. He pleaded guilty, did some prison time, received counseling and is on probation. He is not allowed to have unsupervised contact with anyone under 18. Tulsa Police say it's legal for him to own the building and would be legal for him to be in the club, if he chose to. Records say Sabo told investigators the abuse was an isolated incident and records show he's had no charges of any kind since.
A Tulsa radio station, 92.1 has been doing live remotes at 'The Ministry' every Thursday for the past month, but the station told the News On 6; the club called and canceled them for the foreseeable future. They said they didn't know why, but say that type of thing is fairly common.
"News On 6 crime reporter Lori Fullbright reports Thursday night was first night the club has been open since the shooting. The club manager says he plans to make 'The Ministry' an 18 and over club."
That really doesn't change the dynamic and likely wouldn't have stopped this shooting unless the perp was under 18.
If beer is being served, and food isn't, there is no point in allowing anyone in under 18. I can say for certain that when I was under 21 and drinking it wasn't for the taste- it was to get smashed. I don't think It's any different with teens these days either. At least for most people, they do become more responsible with their drinking as they get older and wiser. I'd also suspect drug use is pretty common around places like the Ministry.
Any denial of that by Kitchell would be like the old SNL skit with John Belushi where he plays the manager of Studio 54 and is being asked about cocaine use there. "Uh, no sir, I don't know a thing about that, must be coming in under our noses." As he wipes some white powder off his top lip.
The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....
http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm
quote:
Originally posted by D
The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....
http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm
Straight shootin' from officer Jay.[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by D
The Police Officer that was at the Ministry that night replied. Good points....
http://www.tulsapolice.org/tpdblog.htm
Straight shootin' from officer Jay.[:)]
Good Stuff. I'm suprised they let him say it!
(TULSA, Okla.) February 19 Extra Tulsa Police are out tonight targeting a certain area downtown to make sure there isn't a repeat of last weekend. Police say two teenagers were shot inside The Ministry near 2nd and Greenwood early Sunday morning. One of those victims still remains hospitalized. Every year the Tulsa Police Department gets a justice block grant. They use the money to pay a group of officers overtime to patrol what they feel are problem areas. This weekend their target is The Ministry. Four officers and a supervisor will patrol the area looking for any traffic violations like drunk drivers, and will also keep an eye out for public intoxication. Police say seeing more officers can cut down on crime
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=1fe068b7-2343-4e5e-ac8a-0c8f58589160
Im in no way defending the nightclub here, but does it seem like were being asked to forget that there was already a significant police presence the night of the shooting?
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=120312
"I'm within 10 feet of the door when the gunshot goes off."
Corporal (Dan) Miller says officers were inside the crowded club about an hour earlier.
"The officers went in to go around and make sure there's no trouble," Miller said. "Didn't see anything obvious, so after everything looked good they went ahead and left."
The city ordinance on curfews should have kept most of these youths home. The curfews help to reduce the incidence of juveniles becoming victims by preventing "gathering," which also means more calls for the police.
It also compels parents to be more responsible and gives them a specific reason to tell their children they cannot be out after a certain time. It is a good prevention tool, keeping the good kids good and keeping the at-risk kids from becoming victims or victimizers.
My kids know the city ordinances on all status offenses because I enforce them all. Not just parents, but any adult should report offenses when they see them. Kids that smoke, drink, skip school, run away, curfew violation, etc. need to know we are watching them. Not saying anything enables them to become heavily involved in breaking the law later for serious crimes.
As a citizen, I wanted to point out a response from a Tulsa Police officer about the shooting on the Tulsa Police Weblog:
http://tpdblog.typepad.com/tpdblog/2007/02/theres_been_a_l.html
While there's been some good debate, maybe it's time to take the next step and start putting some thoughts into action. Isn't that part of the original spirit of TulsaNow?
Please let me know what you think...
Sorry, my last reply got cut off...
I mean to say that TulsaNow, as I am aware, started due to a problem and a sense of urgency to do something about it. It would be great if TulsaNow spear-headed this cause as well.
And as I said before elsewhere, I'll bring the lasagna. ;-)
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
I saw this video linked in a discussion elsewhere:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJFEiWOi6M
Supposedly that is Kitchell at the front door while dozens of kids walk right into the side door (left side of the video). Instead of saying he simply doesn't give a crap about it, I'm thinking this is actually his business strategy. Being open after 2 is also part of it, since everything else closes down, everyone still out and about makes a beeline for his place.
Thanks for the video, it shows quite well what these clubs are all about.
Years back there was another teenage club in Tulsa called Sharks. The lady that ran it had ran adult bars all of her life. She told me she was getting out of the teenage club business because it was absolutely the worse of running clubs.
I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.
When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.
How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.
When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.
How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?
On a personal level with a specific person, I agree with you. But in dealing with the masses, things really do tend to have an ability to be manipulated. A simple change, compounded over time, can have a profound average effect over the masses. If you are looking at a specific hardened thug, he probably wouldn't give a crap if the penalty for a crime was increased, but these things spread across town via word of mouth can have an effect, especially on potential future criminals, due to the mathemetical effect that such penalties can have on the masses. It is cold and heartless, but math can be applied to human behavior.
Math as a weapon. Classic!
Thanks for stressing the point I was trying to make: i.e., get tough laws, get the word out, and precipitate some fear.
I replied to Deinstien's comments on the TPD blog:
http://tpdblog.typepad.com/tpdblog/2007/02/theres_been_a_l.html
Hopefully, this time I was a bit more clear about how laws can help deter crime.
At the least, you can't say TPD isn't listening to concerned citizens in the blogosphere.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
I really disagree with a lot of Officer Jay's points...but, whatever.
When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.
How about we try preventing these situations instead of just reacting to them?
I agree that shooters don't care about the law. An obvious conclusion. I would rather find a way to keep kids out of dance clubs where drinking adults are shooting at each other. Is that not the point?
So Officer Jay says change the law....in the world of liquor licensing, keeping kids out is a big deal. We need to close the "beverage" loophole that allows kids in these places....isn't that what the Officer is saying?
Thanks for clearing that up, you make valid points. I appreciate hearing the side from a TPD point of view.
Chatting with one of my cop buddies the other night, he said that running Kitchell out of town would stop a lot of the crap we've seen over the years.
He said Kitchell has been on the radar scope for a number of years, let's just he's just been real careful with his personal stuff.
quote:
When someone wants to shoot someone, the last thing they give a damn about is what exactly the law is...that is the most moot point.
I think the correct usage is "the mooterist point."
Odd thing about kids and bars, in many (if not most) states, minors are allowed to accompany their parents/guardians/responsible adult into a bar.
The difference is it's not a bar targeted for kids. It might make more sense to follow their lead and strictly prohibit the "Joe Camel" situation we have with dangling the forbidden fruit without having a responsible party present.
i have been to several of Kitchells Club and i have not been able to last more than 5 minutes in most of the clubs with out a bouncer starting a fight with me of one of my friends and the ones i was able to stay more than 5 minutes i meet KIDS and yes i am stressing KIDS 11-13 year old inside with their parents so drunk they could not walk so i hope that Kitchell will finally get closed down for good.
quote:
Originally posted by Hookey
i have been to several of Kitchells Club and i have not been able to last more than 5 minutes in most of the clubs with out a bouncer starting a fight with me of one of my friends and the ones i was able to stay more than 5 minutes i meet KIDS and yes i am stressing KIDS 11-13 year old inside with their parents so drunk they could not walk so i hope that Kitchell will finally get closed down for good.
The bouncers at his clubs are dangerous and scary. I don't go to clubs very often, and the last time I went to one of his clubs was the Voodoo Room. This was probably 3 or 4 years ago. After I left the club (because the whole place was a smoky nasty cesspool), I was waiting on the sidewalk out front for a friend to bring the car around, and I absent mindedly leaned my hand on a pickup truck parked along the curb. A bouncer came over and screamed in my ear to get my "f--ing hand off that truck" and I obliged. He kept making comments to me about how he would kick my donkey, etc. If you met me, you'd know that I'm not any kind of troublemaker, I'm a quiet, clean cut person. I was in complete shock. I never went back. Obviously a case of roid rage. [;)]
After the young guy was killed in the parking garage across the street, the idea that a bouncer might have done it made tons of sense to me.
The older I get, the more I turn into a 80 year old woman who thinks nightclubs are dens of sin. [:D]
I've often heard that the best bouncers work at the strip clubs....not that I would know. [8D]
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa1603
quote:
Originally posted by Hookey
i have been to several of Kitchells Club and i have not been able to last more than 5 minutes in most of the clubs with out a bouncer starting a fight with me of one of my friends and the ones i was able to stay more than 5 minutes i meet KIDS and yes i am stressing KIDS 11-13 year old inside with their parents so drunk they could not walk so i hope that Kitchell will finally get closed down for good.
The bouncers at his clubs are dangerous and scary. I don't go to clubs very often, and the last time I went to one of his clubs was the Voodoo Room. This was probably 3 or 4 years ago. After I left the club (because the whole place was a smoky nasty cesspool), I was waiting on the sidewalk out front for a friend to bring the car around, and I absent mindedly leaned my hand on a pickup truck parked along the curb. A bouncer came over and screamed in my ear to get my "f--ing hand off that truck" and I obliged. He kept making comments to me about how he would kick my donkey, etc. If you met me, you'd know that I'm not any kind of troublemaker, I'm a quiet, clean cut person. I was in complete shock. I never went back. Obviously a case of roid rage. [;)]
After the young guy was killed in the parking garage across the street, the idea that a bouncer might have done it made tons of sense to me.
The older I get, the more I turn into a 80 year old woman who thinks nightclubs are dens of sin. [:D]
not all clubs are bad there are so goods one out there i used to work at a club her in tulsa called the Caravan Cattle Co. and its was by far the best club i have been to in tulsa when i started there the Manager asked me if i knew the difference between bouncers and Security of course being young and dumb i said no and he explained to me that Bouncers create problems and Security Solves problems and at the Caravan they had Security. it was clean and safe a great fun place to go
wow.
Sounds like the same "Caravan" from a couple of decades ago where some of my classmates at Hale HS used to go (parents forbid me from going)... guess that place has been around forever...
You know, this isn't rocket science here.
They're called color-coded HOSPITAL STRENGTH WRISTBANDS and they've been around for a long time... easier to just saw off your hand than try to pry those things off your wrists...
So, what kind of ID does a 13 year-old show at the door?... a library card??? [8)]
quote:
Originally posted by Hookey
not all clubs are bad there are so goods one out there i used to work at a club her in tulsa called the Caravan Cattle Co. and its was by far the best club i have been to in tulsa when i started there the Manager asked me if i knew the difference between bouncers and Security of course being young and dumb i said no and he explained to me that Bouncers create problems and Security Solves problems and at the Caravan they had Security. it was clean and safe a great fun place to go
The Caravan was never owned by Kitchell. Therein lies the biggest difference.
At least these days, the Caravan's music selection doesn't seem to fit the demographic of the chronic trouble-makers. You might see an occasional fist-fight between a couple of drunk cowboys, but not people firing their 9mm inside.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by Hookey
not all clubs are bad there are so goods one out there i used to work at a club her in tulsa called the Caravan Cattle Co. and its was by far the best club i have been to in tulsa when i started there the Manager asked me if i knew the difference between bouncers and Security of course being young and dumb i said no and he explained to me that Bouncers create problems and Security Solves problems and at the Caravan they had Security. it was clean and safe a great fun place to go
The Caravan was never owned by Kitchell. Therein lies the biggest difference.
At least these days, the Caravan's music selection doesn't seem to fit the demographic of the chronic trouble-makers. You might see an occasional fist-fight between a couple of drunk cowboys, but not people firing their 9mm inside.
I would agree with Conan, I've promoted and organised two nights at a club, been the trustee of a club, done some djing and know people in the club scene. The most important thing as far as I was concerned was the music.
The two nights I ran never had any trouble in over four years, I didn't even need security and there were no incidents. On those nights we played cheese, pop, dance and indie.
The club I was a trustee for had a small secondary room. In it they played garage, r'n'b and rap. The venue was almost shut down because of that room. People were dealing drugs in it, there were huge fights inside and outside. People were clubbed with chair legs. We had brilliant security at the club, but there is only so many places they could be at one time. The other trustees eventually agreed to change the music policy, we banned r'n'b and rap and the problem ended over night.
I guess my point is if you have the right music that doesn't attract the wrong crowd you don't have a problem.
An arrest:
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=76b9db6e-6849-4755-abe2-b4986cd06d9d
Oh darn, I was hoping to see Kitchell's smug face in the link.
Again, I don't buy it. Noone wants the heat on their backs - not even Mr. K - because it's bad for the bottom line.
IMO, the prime reason for certain locations, Goodfellows and M.O.S specifcally, alluded to here but dropped, is the high occup.
Simply, the odds of pulling a trigger in a tiny joint, where you can't vanish into a huge crowd and get away with it, suck.
Fear mongering "News" coverage for ratings: telling all the bad-donkey wannbies where all the bad-donkey's have been busting it up doesn't help either - it's more like a show bill.
Suppose that's why I stuffed a lawnchair in my closet and started hanging out in there when I choose to enjoy a refreshing, adult beverage.
Better music too, jdb