Nonstop prayers for city, state
By BILL SHERMAN World Religion Writer
1/5/2007 http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070105_Ne_A1_Nonst6011
Does this story about "Kooks" really rate front page coverage? And what does "cross denominational" refer to? Certainly not other religions. "Cross" must be the icon and not the adjective.
You religous nuts (which cause great harm to our cities image) are now free to board....
So because it's religious prayer rather than the secular type, or "orgasmic" method of chanting it's bad? What's bad about praying for healing and mercy and other such things?
I don't have a problem with it, either.
It certainly couldn't hurt.
This topic could get interesting :)
Let me preface this by saying I'm a journalist, and an agnostic. That said, here's my take...
First, it's not a "hard" news story, and I wouldn't run it as my top story (talking broadcast here) but it's a legit story -- because it reflects the community we live in, like it or not :)
Do I believe the way these people do? Guess not, but that doesn't make them wrong necessarily, and as a journalist it's just simply not my job to make that call. If something's happening, and it interests/affects a sizeable percentage of my audience, then it's a legit story.
As for the wording... "Denomination" reflects a certain slant on Christianity. I've never heard other religions referred to as "denominations."
Finally -- I'm not sure how the fundamentalist Christian bent prevalent in the area necessarily "harms" our city's image. Are you worried about Tulsa being perceived as backwards? Narrow-minded? I'm just curious, really. IMHO there are certainly things that concern me a hell of a lot more -- like our sky-high rates of poverty, illiteracy, teen pregnancy, meth abuse, etc etc etc
Another example of the wonderful writings of Sherman is his inexplicable story about Tony Alamo a couple of weeks ago. He never spoke to anyone other than Alamo (who is a complete crack pot) Why even bother giving this guy press....OH wait. He bought a full page ad in The Whirled. They have to make money somehow, I guess.
Tony in the Whirled, almost makes me want to see that edition, but then I'd have to touch it.
Nah, jdb
"As for the wording... "Denomination" reflects a certain slant on Christianity. I've never heard other religions referred to as "denominations."
When we speak of tolerance, we speak of the involvement of all denominations. Those outside of the "christian" sects seem to be the most generous in our community. Those generous and somewhat annonymous ones generate a lot more good for our community than the one's sitting around praying. Action vs. inaction?
Prayer left in the church and the homes suits me fine. Bring it into the open and it serves to alienate rather than unify the community. And the impression from the rest of the world remains backwoods...
Saw a release of personalities that have booked our own Crystal Cathedral in advance of it's completion.... and an abbreviated list of the theme for each appearance.
1. Jimmy Swaggart.. "The Temptations of the Soul"
2. Robert Schuller.. "People That Live in Glass Houses"
3. Jim Baker..
..a double feature..
"Revelations of Christian Development Gone Awry"
"Be Careful What You Build for They Will Gather Near the Faithful City"
and last but not least...
4. Richard Roberts "Tulsa Centennial Revival"
Oh well.... back to the subject.. Ax man the World will Publish (for no good reason) whatever they wish as long as they hold the monopoly on news for Tulsa...
As long as anyone expects anything different.. they will be disappointed.
[}:)]
Prayer is the sacrifice of our lips, a daily sacrifice of praise to the LORD.
This Psalm comes to mind:
Psalm 50:1
"The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. (v.2) Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined. (v.3) Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. (v.4) He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. (v.5) Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. (v.6) And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah. (v.7) Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy God. (v.8) I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. (v.9) I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. (v.10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. (v.11) I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. (v.12) If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. (v.13) Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? (v.14) Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: (v.15) And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. (v.16) But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? (v.17) Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee. (v.18) When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. (v.19) Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. (v.20) Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. (v.21) These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. (v.22) Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. (v.23) Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God."
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Those outside of the "christian" sects seem to be the most generous in our community. Those generous and somewhat annonymous ones generate a lot more good for our community than the one's sitting around praying. Action vs. inaction?
Yeah, organizing prayer groups and praying for Tulsa is a whole lot cheaper and easier than actually doing something constructive or spending money on secular stuff. No wonder it appeals to so many.
I started a thread about Tulsa dying awhile back. It should have asked, "Is the takeover complete?"
Hallelujah......pass the mustard.
There will be no takeover. Instead, there will be ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hallelujah......pass the mustard.
There will be no takeover. Instead, there will be ignorance.
Ignorance we've always had. Everywhere. And education may be overated. Educate a racist and what do you have? David Duke? I'm afraid its more than that. Enlightenment, however that is gained, is what we lack. A failure by different classes to understand and appreciate each others contributions. Higher education has served to increase the disparity of income further alienating groups from each other. Education has become the way to make more money. Period.
Did you hear the lady in Michigan extoll the virtues of president Ford's, "solid mid-western values" the other day? As though the rest of us are suspect? This myopia that religiousity, regionalism, classism engenders is screwing us all.
Hmmm. Feeling rather cynical right now i guess.
As someone else has pointed out on here. Whats up with this strange coincidence of such high fundamentalist religiosity, usually mixed with a high dose of superstitious and supernatural flavoring,,, and the high rates of poor, hungry, drug abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, crime,homicide, etc. etc.?
Shouldn't it be that if there is such a high concentration of religious, good, church going, praying, people in the area that those sins would be less than in other areas not greater?
A decent read from a fellow Okie....
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070122/moyers
"The leaders and thinkers and activists who honestly tell that story and speak passionately of the moral and religious values it puts in play will be the first political generation since the New Deal to win power back for the people. "
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
A decent read from a fellow Okie....
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070122/moyers
"The leaders and thinkers and activists who honestly tell that story and speak passionately of the moral and religious values it puts in play will be the first political generation since the New Deal to win power back for the people. "
Wow! That makes me proud to think he spent formative years here. Thanks for the link. Every member should read that in its entirety and with a non partisan attitude.
"The conservative movement stands intellectually and morally bankrupt while Democrats talk about a "new direction" without convincing us they know the difference between a weather vane and a compass. The right story will set our course for a generation to come."
We have an obligation to tell that story.
Am I missing something here? You realize that religious people pray, right? You realize that organized religion means organized prayers, right? I didn't see anything about kooks. I saw devout people praying for the place they live.
People fear what they don't understand. The only ignorance I see here comes from those of you who mock faith. It is hypocritical to criticize supposed right-wingers for being threatened by progress and then turn around and be threatened by their belief in God.
This is part of what makes Tulsa Tulsa. We're in the Bible Belt - get over it and move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Am I missing something here? You realize that religious people pray, right? You realize that organized religion means organized prayers, right? I didn't see anything about kooks. I saw devout people praying for the place they live.
People fear what they don't understand. The only ignorance I see here comes from those of you who mock faith. It is hypocritical to criticize supposed right-wingers for being threatened by progress and then turn around and be threatened by their belief in God.
This is part of what makes Tulsa Tulsa. We're in the Bible Belt - get over it and move on.
I won't get over it and move on. I was born here, I grew up here and I live here. I was here before it was taken over by people who run classified employment ads touting their Christianity. Before every display at the zoo was viewed through the prism of "organized" religion. Back when people fixed Tulsa's problems instead of organizing to ask God to fix them. You make the mistake of believing that people who don't wear their spirituality like a badge on a Polo shirt are simply not Christian, not religious, don't understand and are mocking others. Sounds ignorant to me.
I bet I've been here longer than you. Why don't you guys leave and go to Utah?
As long as someone is showing even a little effort to listening and hearing what others have to say, I think having differences of opinions and beliefs discussed is a good thing.
If I am right about what I think, then I have nothing to lose. If a person is not around to hear what I am saying, then they will not understand me. Pushing people, who are at least trying, away, will never convince them or enable them to understand my point of view.
Also, if there are others like them. By arguing or discussing things with them I can start to understand them better and be able to learn how to talk to them, or, as the case may be, learn how to convince them of what I have to say. It helps me formulate and clarify my responses to the next, like, person.
I don't see what the big deal is here. Just because the newspaper prints an article about something doesn't mean they're promoting it for everyone. A local newspaper is going to print information about local events. In this specific example, Bill Sherman, who is the World Religion Writer, wrote an article about a noteworthy local religious event. That's it. I agree that our national image is probably that of televangelists and fundamentalists, but I don't see how this article contributes to those images in any fashion.
If this same 24/7 thing occurred in Chicago, it would probably be printed somewhere in the Sun-Times. If this was printed in the Sun-Times instead of the World, no one would think the Sun-Times was promoting conservative Christianity or fundamentalism. But in Tulsa, people are just hypersensitive to those type of things because of our "image." Whether anyone realizes it or not, Tulsa is becoming a lot more cosmopolitan than it has been in the past. As more of our population becomes educated, more also become open-minded.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
As someone else has pointed out on here. Whats up with this strange coincidence of such high fundamentalist religiosity, usually mixed with a high dose of superstitious and supernatural flavoring,,, and the high rates of poor, hungry, drug abuse, divorce, teen pregnancy, crime,homicide, etc. etc.?
Shouldn't it be that if there is such a high concentration of religious, good, church going, praying, people in the area that those sins would be less than in other areas not greater?
Very Good question Sir...
Let us consult the..
"Ouija Board" or the "I Ching" (//%22http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3pEbDZi0_w%22)[:O]
"Jesus is cool but some of his followers give me the creeps".
This post is so inappropriate, it's almost deserving of no commentary. I was initially confused over whether the post related to (1) the story's placement on the front page of the newspaper or (2) disparagement of those who pray. I guess it is a co-mingling of both.
And, so, apparently, the answer to the city's "image" problem is the adoption of some sort of secular humanism, and/or overt rejection of anything religious. Yes, Tulsa would become a veritable mecca of "culture" if it would just focus on secular and humanistic values. True "enlightenment" (to use one poster's term) can only come through rejection (or, at least, suppression) of religious thought and practice. Yes, those are the ideals of a progressive city.
Even aside from this ridiculous argument (that praying people should be shunned), the post is contrary to all modern notions of "enlightenment." Since when did enlightenment mean that we reject the views of others simply because we believe them to be "kooky"? And, since when did a city grow and prosper when it FINALLY decided to suppress religious views?
I'm not even going to comment on the "cross-denominational" language. One would be required to understand religious doctrine before one could engage in intelligent conversation on this topic. This would clearly be outside the scope of this post.
^"praying people should be shunned"?
Who said that? Quite the opposite. It's just about how and where they go about it, who's in and who's out.
It's about how we are perceived by others and how that affects our kingdom.
In honor of his 72nd birthday and in light that "This here hotspot is one of the many millions of places where you can plug into your global community church, get turned on with all your cousins from around the whole joint, and get a mighty mighty jolt of the heavy heavy juice: the healing power of The King."
http://www.elvisunderground.org/index.html
(for Alt)
I think many people in this town, perhaps some on here, and definitely myself, have been hurt by certain "factions" of religion. Yes, as adults we should be able to choose to simply deal with it and move on. But often the wounds run deep having been there from earliest childhood, then constantly rubbed with salt and ripped open many times there after. <hows that for drama?[;)]
Its quite easy to say live and let live, let there be differences of opinion and belief. But when the message from the other side is a constant barrage of, if you don't believe as we do, your going to hell... Those "wounds" can begin to ache and if we are not at our best, it can understood if the response to that is at times a bit defensive.
It may look like a simple statement of prayer, but seen through that history and experience, "Praying for the place they live", can turn into...
We are praying for you, for you are wrong, you are not like us that is why this city has so much sin. Woe is this city so full of sinners. Its not us its you, we are organized, we are on the front page, we are determined, here we are pointing our fingers at you once again. Repent, or go to....
Here is one other thing to consider. There are different kinds of churches. But these specific churches, "cross denominational' though they be, share a common type of message. Even within say the methodist denomination, different churches in this town have very different ways of worship and of seeing the world. You can go to one Methodist church and find a more pentecostal approach and feel, then go to the next Methodist church down the street and see quite a different message and feel. There are churches in this town of different denominations that get along better with each other than some churches of even their own denomination.
I saw what churches were on the list, and what churches were not. That should inform somewhat the message that they were sending.
So there, their voices were, right on the front page reaching out, through all that past experience, admonishing those who do not believe as they do. And not only that, they are going to be vigilant and do it twenty four seven lol.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I think many people in this town, perhaps some on here, and definitely myself, have been hurt by certain "factions" of religion. Yes, as adults we should be able to choose to simply deal with it and move on. But often the wounds run deep having been there from earliest childhood, then constantly rubbed with salt and ripped open many times there after. <hows that for drama?[;)]
Its quite easy to say live and let live, let there be differences of opinion and belief. And you can do so for your part, but when the message from the other side is a constant barrage of, if you don't believe as we do, your going to hell... Those "wounds" can begin to ache and if we are not at our best, it can understood if the response to that is a bit defensive.
It may look like a simple statement of prayer, but seen through that history and experience, "Praying for the place they live", can turn into...
We are praying for you, for you are wrong, you are not like us that is why this city has so much sin. Woe is this city so full of sinners. Its not us its you, we are organized, we are on the front page, we are determined, here we are pointing our fingers at you once again. Repent, or go to....
Here is one other thing to consider. There are different kinds of churches. But these specific churches, "cross denominational' though they be, share a common type of message. Even within say the methodist denomination, different churches in this town have very different ways of worship and of seeing the world. You can go to one Methodist church and find a more pentecostal approach and feel, then go to the next Methodist church down the street and see quite a different message and feel. There are churches in this town of different denominations that get along better with each other than some churches of even their own denomination.
I saw what churches were on the list, and what churches were not. That should inform somewhat the message that they were sending.
So there, their voices were, right on the front page reaching out, through all that past experience, admonishing those who do not believe as they do. And not only that, they are going to be vigilant and do it twenty four seven lol.
That's pretty well said Artist. Trams, you were looking for something that wasn't there, and you found it. This isn't a war between secular interests and religion. I am Christian, btw. We have been witness to a non violent takeover of the psyche of the town. Those not deep into the club resent it.
"And, since when did a city grow and prosper when it FINALLY decided to suppress religious views?" What a silly remark. On so many levels. Show your religious persecution complex. Can you show the converse in contemporary times?
Ok, I'll buy in. I'm starting a prayer group to help Bob Stoops put together a team that can finally win against the godless secular teams from the West coast. We're going to meet daily and continuously pray for guidance to his staff so that our state may prosper from an influx of monies to higher education. I expect some front page coverage in the World and anyone who ignores our effort is simply ignorant, intolerant and humanist. You in?
I wish this could be a good discussion. The Churches aren't doing anything? Trinity Episcopal feeds the homeless every day. First Baptist provides clothing. Am I embarassed by the Crytal Cathedral -- of course. Have Christians screwed up, you bet -- look at the Crusades and the Inquisition. But are we the only ones? How about Pol Pot and Stalin?
I suspect these folks aren't praying "against" anyone, but simply that there would be more love and compassion in our city. Let's face it, we're never going to be a San Francisco or Seattle or New York -- do we really want to be?
quote:
Originally posted by traveler
I wish this could be a good discussion. The Churches aren't doing anything? Trinity Episcopal feeds the homeless every day. First Baptist provides clothing. Am I embarassed by the Crytal Cathedral -- of course. Have Christians screwed up, you bet -- look at the Crusades and the Inquisition. But are we the only ones? How about Pol Pot and Stalin?
I suspect these folks aren't praying "against" anyone, but simply that there would be more love and compassion in our city. Let's face it, we're never going to be a San Francisco or Seattle or New York -- do we really want to be?
Who said local churches wern't doing anything? Such paranoia. Hey, anything compares well with Pol Pot and Stalin. I'll cut to the crux of my responses. Prayer, religion, spirituality are personal. They rely on a personal relationship with ones creator. To expand it to a group activity is the result of human frailty. We want to share in an effort to collectivize and reinforce our personal views. We can't be wrong if everyone else agrees can we? That implies that those who don't agree...are wrong. Or just don't understand (read the previous responses this thread). That implication evolves into more brazen manifestations and eventually real power. How do you think non Mormons fare in Utah with their businesses? How do you explain the terms "Christian workplace" being used in employment ads?
I have no problem with a true believer spontaneously dropping to his knees in public and praying. Not as common here as in the middle east. I have no idea of his religious affiliation by sight but I know his bravery to do so in such a tightly conforming community comes from a personal relationship that is protected in law, not codified, and not part of a group activity like the Boy Scouts pledge or a rally at the flag pole.
When his prayer is non spontaneous and part of a group, any semblance of sincerity starts to fade. Groups are easily manipulated and its easy to pray for the values of the strongest within the group. Koresh followers were good prayer partners.
Does it do any harm? Probably not much other than reinforce to outsiders that Tulsa is not a place that individual spirituality, private prayer and non conformance rules. We have quietly been taken over. And I certainly understand your view. Do you understand mine?
[/quote]
I have no problem with a true believer spontaneously dropping to his knees in public and praying. Not as common here as in the middle east. I have no idea of his religious affiliation by sight but I know his bravery to do so in such a tightly conforming community comes from a personal relationship that is protected in law, not codified, and not part of a group activity like the Boy Scouts pledge or a rally at the flag pole.
When his prayer is non spontaneous and part of a group, any semblance of sincerity starts to fade. Groups are easily manipulated and its easy to pray for the values of the strongest within the group. Koresh followers were good prayer partners.
Does it do any harm? Probably not much other than reinforce to outsiders that Tulsa is not a place that individual spirituality, private prayer and non conformance rules. We have quietly been taken over. And I certainly understand your view. Do you understand mine?
[/quote]
Touche -- but using Koresh as an example of believers praying is no better than my use of Pol Pot. Aren't folks in the middle east required to pray 3-5 times per day? Anyway, not to argue, I can't disagree that a lot of "organized" prayer isn't sincere - Christ did tell us to go into the closet and speak to our Father in private. I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.
God help us when faith silences reason
By ROBYN E. BLUMNER, Times Perspective Columnist
Published January 7, 2007
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/07/News/God_help_us_when_fait.shtml
"The link between religion and 'morality'... is fully belied here, as it is wherever religious dogma supersedes moral reasoning and genuine compassion."
"And these people get away with calling themselves "moral."
Why do we give religious personages such a pass? And why don't we laugh Robertson right out of Dodge? Because way too often, faith silences reason, even among reasonable people."
AND HERE! ANOTHER GREAT LINK!
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm
Conquering by Stealth and Deception
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
By Katherine Yurica
September 14, 2004
traveler wrote:
I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.
<end clip>
I think Waterboy and the others were quite clear in not the lumping usual, loving Christians with the despotic Christianists.
Listen, this is a free country. Conservatives get criticism. Liberals get criticism. Moderates get criticism. Muslims get criticism. Atheists get criticism. I don't see any law or edict that prevent Christians from getting criticized also.
Public discussion is the first stirrings of producing real change in this country. Christians -- and everyone else -- would do well to listen instead of resorting to a whiny persecution complex.
quote:
Originally posted by traveler
I just react to all Christians being lumped in with the "krazies". There are some of us who are concerned with poverty, the environment and Darfur -- not just becoming healthy/wealthy/wise.
[/quote]
Kind of like an acting, politics or art career. It becomes necessary to develop a thick skin and a tolerance for criticism. [:D]
Many small business owners within the Tulsa community consider prayer very important.
Cross-denomination means that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Pentecostals are all on the same page about this issue.
There is nothing wrong with announcing a campaign to pray for the State of Oklahoma. Why would this offend anyone?
If the article was about Muslims praying to Allah from inside mosques at TU for the well-being of Oklahoma, I would also think it was a positive news story.
And positive news stories are the rare kind.
Nothing wrong with the article at all.
"Cross-denomination means that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Pentecostals are all on the same page about this issue."
Witch issue? Not the one where those of us on the outside of their church are going to hell?
Yes, that's very attractive to those thinking about placing jobs here or moving offices here.
Someone call Carlton Pearson and clear this article up for Hawkins.....
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Listen, this is a free country. Conservatives get criticism. Liberals get criticism. Moderates get criticism. Muslims get criticism. Atheists get criticism. I don't see any law or edict that prevent Christians from getting criticized also.
Public discussion is the first stirrings of producing real change in this country. Christians -- and everyone else -- would do well to listen instead of resorting to a whiny persecution complex.
The point, though, is that the original article contains nothing - nothing! - that deserves criticism. Re-read the thread and you'll see a couple of posters who are clearly uncomfortable with public prayer. They're expressing this discomfort through embarassment, and they're rationalizing their embarassment by trying to paint this prayer group as a threat or an anomaly.
My point is, people pray and it's nothing to be scared of. Save the bashing for Fred Phelps or Jimmy Swaggert.
Floyd, the thread evolved into further discussion. I initially had no problem with the idea of 24-hour, tag-team prayer (for lack of better description).
But, yes, some people *do* have problems with public prayer because it's -- ahem -- against their religion.
Or public prayer could be, as Tom T. Hall would have said it, "puttin' on a front."
For those who are not atheists....
http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/viewmovie.html
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
For those who are not atheists....
http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/viewmovie.html
In the interest of full disclosure, Ax, you're an atheist, right?
If so, you're proselytizing your own (dis)belief just as strongly in this thread right now as any Jehovah's Witness who knocks on the door.
Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone. What are they doing that's so offensive? I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what? They still have the right to free assembly. Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting. And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.
No Floyd. You are wrong. Just because I do not support Churchianity does not make me an atheist. Perhaps, an agnostic. An atheist would not send a link like that.
You should work on not assuming things about others and also on not taking things personally.
You should study the message in the link too......
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone. What are they doing that's so offensive? I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what? They still have the right to free assembly. Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting. And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.
It was the fact that Tulsa World put it front and center. It's damn offensive to some. I imagine it's offensive to the main cast of philanthropy here in Tulsa. It does nothing for the cities image ...... it serves to alienate. Read the opening post.
<Floyd wrote:
If so, you're proselytizing your own (dis)belief just as strongly in this thread right now as any Jehovah's Witness who knocks on the door.
<end clip>
Proselytizing a disbelief? Is that even possible?
pros·e·ly·tize (pr#335;s'#601;-l#301;-t#299;z') Pronunciation Key
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v. intr.
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
Source: American Heritage Dictionary
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Come on people, leave the 24/7s alone. What are they doing that's so offensive? I realize that the religious bodies they represnent are typically fundamentalist conservatives, but so what? They still have the right to free assembly. Just because they are sterotypically judgemental doesn't mean they are making any judgements or public condemnations at their 24/7 meeting. And who has the right to tell anyone how or if they should pray?
As someone said earlier, let's save our hoes and pitchforks for the Fred Phelps-types.
Such paranoia! Assemble all you want, believe what you want, judge all you want, pray what you want. But don't be surprised when non-members of your club comment on the casual way it was put front and center on a non religious community newspaper.
I have been critical of aox on some topics but he has stumbled upon something interesting here. Read the very insightful and clever headline of this thread. This story and its front page placement ARE a disqualifier for people and businesses looking for a tolerant, purposeful community in which to move. And that is just a comment from a marketing/business perspective not a criticism of any religion or religious effort. Face it, The World was pandering.
I'm not so sure this post was based on religion "being a disqualifier" for Tulsa. The story was borne of animus toward religious groups and their activities. There's no other way to explain the pejorative commentary contained in the poster's comments. kooks? ignorance?
His is not a reasonable commentary, nor a constructive one in terms of understanding or addressing the influence of religion in Tulsa. And, I personally don't understand this theory that "we have quietly been taken over." How in the world does that manifest itself? Taken over by whom? If you're referencing the influence of religious belief and practice, how does that differ from any other influence out there? How are we oppressed by religious belief?
And I guess, for purposes of this post, how are those beliefs holding Tulsa back? People don't move here because there is a collective (if quiet, inaudible) "judgment" of them? Do businesses refuse to move to Tulsa because of this errant aura surrounding the city? An aura of "you're not welcome here"?
So, I think this is simply a false argument. And it is motivated by an anti-religion attitude. The poster believes that those who are "religious" are non-thinking, and frail. And, even assuming the poster wouldn't suppress all religious thought, he would certainly encourage it to go underground. Or at least those "denominations" that are unsavory. Denominations that are more "free-thinking" and "progressive" would be allowed to practice above-ground, because they're more cosmopolitan and trendy.
I'm not being defensive here, or thin-skinned. I just think this is religious bigotry hiding behind an argument regarding Tulsa's future.
Trams....religious bigotry? Come on. Way to turn the discussion around. Don't think I will turn defensive.
Let's try again. There are many blessed families in Tulsa who give back to this community in a big major way. Many of these blessed givers are not welcomed at these meetings. Unless, of course, they might "cross" over. They are after all "going to hell". Where have you been all these years?
Non of my posts are anti religion. But they are anti intolerance. And the choice by a local newspaper to prioritize this story indicates nothing but insensitivity and back stabbing.
It's not about how these beliefs hold Tulsa back and not about "you're not welcome here". Instead, it's about how these "true" believers dominate Tulsa's aura through their divisiveness with the very people doing the most in the community for the disadvantaged.
I don't expect you to understand. Many of my friends grew up here and moved far far away from what they know to be a hateful, intolerant, and backwards society.
Now, say something progressive or go away.
That's okay Aox. Alot of my friends are moving here with their families because of Tulsa's religious community. They see Tulsa as a great place to raise their families. No matter how much you kick and scream, most people in this area are religious, they go to church and are active in the community.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Trams....religious bigotry? Come on. Way to turn the discussion around. Don't think I will turn defensive.
I don't think it's turning the discussion around. I think it's bringing it back to where it started. Truly. I think you have an inherent bias against certain religious groups ... call it what you will (a "bias against intolerance" or some other euphemism) ... but I think most people can see it for what it is. The very text of your posts supports my point, and I would certainly challenge to analyze the spirit of your own post.
I suppose a lot of people hold your views, so you're obviously not alone out there.
quote:
It's not about how these beliefs hold Tulsa back and not about "you're not welcome here". Instead, it's about how these "true" believers dominate Tulsa's aura through their divisiveness with the very people doing the most in the community for the disadvantaged.
I am very much confused by the purpose of your post then. It is NOT about holding Tulsa back? Where does your "disqualifier" language come in? Are you truly worried about the substance of the divisiveness? Are you truly worried about doctrine and religious theory, and who is right and who is wrong? Or is the post more concerned with Tulsa' image? I don't think you should re-define the purpose(s) of your post in order to meet the comment of the day.
quote:
I don't expect you to understand. Many of my friends grew up here and moved far far away from what they know to be a hateful, intolerant, and backwards society.
Why stay? Move far, far away, from this horrible, backwards, and suffocating society. It is obviously unbearable.
quote:
Now, say something progressive or go away.
No, I'll be here. To keep tabs on all that is right and good.
quote:
Alot of my friends are moving here with their families because of Tulsa's religious community.
Cant be from very far, I dont think someone would move from far away just to be in a religious place, besides our crime, incarceration rate, high rate of mental illness, and poor quality of life outweigh its positve aspects.
Give me that ole time religion....
This evil doer will continue to vouch for the less than .025% of Tulsa that provides the majority of necessary civic support. Even if the local rag chooses to put the true deceivers on a pedestal. It is Tulsa's great disqualifier.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
<Floyd wrote:
If so, you're proselytizing your own (dis)belief just as strongly in this thread right now as any Jehovah's Witness who knocks on the door.
<end clip>
Proselytizing a disbelief? Is that even possible?
pros·e·ly·tize (pr#335;s'#601;-l#301;-t#299;z') Pronunciation Key
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v. intr.
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
Source: American Heritage Dictionary
Yes. It's possible. When reading a dictionary, the whole entry can be useful.
proselytize \PROS-uh-luh-tyz\, intransitive verb:
1. To induce someone to convert to one's religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's institution, cause, or political party. transitive verb:
1. To convert to some religion,
system, opinion, or the like. Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2001/01/04.html
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
"Cross-denomination means that the Baptists and the Methodists and the Pentecostals are all on the same page about this issue."
Witch issue? Not the one where those of us on the outside of their church are going to hell?
Yes, that's very attractive to those thinking about placing jobs here or moving offices here.
Someone call Carlton Pearson and clear this article up for Hawkins.....
Which issue? Is that sarcasm or for real? The issue of praying for the well-being of the State of Oklahoma. Isn't that what the article was about?
I simply scanned over it, so maybe I missed something? I didn't see any political attacks concerning gay marriage benefits or the like in this one.
Those are in poor taste, IMO, and for the record, I think the fact that there are separate denominations show that mainstream Christianity is flawed. But this article didn't seem offensive.
These folks may be showing interest here, but I would not doubt that they may feel a little queasy once they get to know it's citizens.....
http://www.tulsaworld.com/BusinessStory.asp?ID=070110_Bu_E3_Israe59163
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
These folks may be showing interest here, but I would not doubt that they may feel a little queasy once they get to know it's citizens.....
http://www.tulsaworld.com/BusinessStory.asp?ID=070110_Bu_E3_Israe59163
I think you're making quite a stretch there.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
These folks may be showing interest here, but I would not doubt that they may feel a little queasy once they get to know it's citizens.....
http://www.tulsaworld.com/BusinessStory.asp?ID=070110_Bu_E3_Israe59163
You're so full of **** I don't even know where to begin. Do you really think that the people of Tulsa are so combatively religious as to scare away an Israeli research institution? You are so far from reality I guess I just won't bother.
Only question is, if you're so disgusted by the people of Tulsa and their beliefs, why even post? Just move on and move away. I'm starting to smell a troll. I'm done with this thread.
In some breaking news (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070110_Ne_a1_air%22), it appears that certain river park runners are being attacked by owls or hawks. It is reported that one runner "received several small puncture wounds to her scalp, and her head was sore the next day."
What is appauling about this story is the fact that it rated front page coverage! It's fine if these runners want to suffer-in-silence, but it is very offensive (to me) for these news organizations to prioritize this story. It is clearly pandering the those who believe exercise (i.e., running) is important. What about those of us who don't believe in the importance of exercise?
Perhaps more importantly, what outsider would want to move to a city where runners are attacked by owls and hawks? You running-nuts -- at least those who are being randomly attacked by owls and hawks -- are now free to board . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Trams
In some breaking news (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070110_Ne_a1_air%22), it appears that certain river park runners are being attacked by owls or hawks. It is reported that one runner "received several small puncture wounds to her scalp, and her head was sore the next day."
What is appauling about this story is the fact that it rated front page coverage! It's fine if these runners want to suffer-in-silence, but it is very offensive (to me) for these news organizations to prioritize this story. It is clearly pandering the those who believe exercise (i.e., running) is important. What about those of us who don't believe in the importance of exercise?
Perhaps more importantly, what outsider would want to move to a city where runners are attacked by owls and hawks? You running-nuts -- at least those who are being randomly attacked by owls and hawks -- are now free to board . . .
Uhh..I don't get it. Are you mad at hawks and owls for doing what they naturally do? Or are you mad at runners for their kooky outfits? Or are you just surprised that secular news makes it to the front page too? Now if those runners had been praying while running that would make sense. I'm so confused. Weak sarcasm does that to me.
One thing we all agree on. This thread is a loser.
Wheee-who!! It's a prayer lottery ya'll!!!
Give us mercy, give us grace, give us prosperity, gimmie a break.
Be thankful you don't live in Somalia.
"Sawyer asked Pelosi whether the trip to conservative parts of America left her feeling as though "you had to get a visa to a foreign country." And later, Pelosi described the journey "as sort of a sociological field trip." It was the "Jesus freak" comment, however, that appeared too much for even Diane Sawyer:"
http://newsbusters.org/node/10306
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
"Sawyer asked Pelosi whether the trip to conservative parts of America left her feeling as though "you had to get a visa to a foreign country." And later, Pelosi described the journey "as sort of a sociological field trip." It was the "Jesus freak" comment, however, that appeared too much for even Diane Sawyer:"
http://newsbusters.org/node/10306
I thought Pelosi, though a little pr challenged, made some good points. Especially the Paris vs Jesus comparison and the some religion vs no religion. However the comments after the story were most telling. Very narrow views when you see the world as left or not left. Such name calling...