Walking through DT today and it occurred to me that the huge open area behind Holy Family would be a great place for row houses. There are only a couple of existing structures here; many would not be missed.
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/SOUTH-END-ROW-HOUSES.jpg)
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dtrh.png)
Some of that area might include the property owned by the Schusterman's who were to donate it for the new library. I don't know if that idea has been completely scraped, or is going to be brought up again for another vote.
The library was planned for the lot just to the south of 10th/11th St between Denver and Cheyenne. I took it into account, though I'm not sure if it is still planned.
There is already a cool old apartment building on 9th St that would fit in nicely.
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20001.jpg)
This building at 8th and Cheyenne is also nice.
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20002.jpg)
The rest is urban wasteland. This is both corners of 9th Street and Cheyenne Avenue
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20003.jpg)
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20004.jpg)
I bet the folks in Renaissance on Denver would like something nicer to look at than bail bonds and empty parking lots.
I'd like to see most of that crumbling pavement removed. I'll let the buildings stand for now. All that pavement though, should be grass and a few trees. I'd think the property values would instantly go up a bit. And I'd think the Renaissance apts would like the change.
But were will everyone go for their plasma needs? That's such a wonderful addition to the neighborhood. You know your in a great neighborhood when you've got a place to sell blood for a few bucks.
I've always liked the building accross from the old safeway, though I guess that's a little further south.
According to the DTU master plan, a trolley stand and gateway will be placed at 8th and Denver. Right now there is not much reason to want to catch a trolley there.
Plasma Services certainly is a popular destination, but its really not close to anyplace where you can spend your money. Let's put it closer to the mall or a QT.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
The rest is urban wasteland. This is both corners of 9th Street and Cheyenne Avenue
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20003.jpg)
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/images/dt%20004.jpg)
Betcha a dollar that behind that ugly green slipcover facade there's a cool old building waiting to be revealed.
You know Joe, I thought the same thing. If there is a neat little brick building with face front windows, what in the H*E*doublehockeysticks were they thinking when they covered it up with that?!?
Other than wondering what's under the green pebble cover, I can't find many buildings that tear at the heartstrings.
How amazing would it be to turn it into an actual neighborhood with trees, people, pets and maybe even little gardens in front.
Ever walk through downtown Chicago, Manhattan or Frisco (even St Louis)? Suddenly and for no reason you happen on these cool little row houses, and you can't help but slow down and appreciate them. I try not to be nosey, but I always look in to see how cosey and well appointed they are. They have this timeless and romantic feel to them.
It's what downtown needs. But to do it, a public magnet school needs to be inserted and designated as the only school nearby residents may send their kids. That would give the neighborhood an anchor. Actually, take back Central from PSO through TDA and eminent domain.
AEP is creepy enough to move into empty office space elsewhere and absorb some vacancy.
The churches are free to follow suit. Just no voucher shenanigans.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
a public magnet school needs to be inserted and designated as the only school nearby residents may send their kids. That would give the neighborhood an anchor.
Dude, I thought of exactly that when wondering what could be done to seriously attract people and investment to parts of the north side of Tulsa. Reinsert a district for BTW and ensure that all kids who live within that district entry if qualified. I guarantee you that if my child were to qualify for the school and for some reason not be selected I would be moving the next day into the district.
"...what in the H*E*doublehockeysticks were they thinking when they covered it up with that?!?" - carlton
It was a standard move by many to update facades cross the nation.
Upshot is some of these original facades - being sheltered from the elements - can be "restored" for the cost of a new TV: if new owner is so inclined.
Having seen two in tact 100 year old store fronts uncovered and promptly torn out, by new owners, I no longer advocate the concept of "anyone's better than no one down here".
Thing is, row houses are not a new idea.
It hasn't occurred because it's cost prohibitive, no demand, and isolating.
Strike one is street side parking.
Strike two and three <insert numerous reasons here> come wizzing by instantly and that's that.
Simply, we need more West and East coast mind-sets to create demand.
That, or petrol soars to $20.00 a gallon - whichever comes first, eh?
Shipping the kid to Central was a nightmare and ended badly. The cross-section of DT residents are sorely limited due to the school district.
It's a given this issues has to be addressed and ironic that it's one of the original reasons for the decay of Urban cores to begin with.
On a more serious note, the solution to the Plasma Centre is to relocate it in basement of the Public Library and create a TIF.
Lick more frogs, jdb
Its winter jdb and frogs are not easy to come by right now.
I'm surprised by your attitude lately whenever someone puts forth an idea or opinion on dt development. You seem to want the status quo, a decaying core with ever growing surface parking. More people downtown is exactly what we need; living working and playing. With more people will come retail, restaurants, parks and schools. You are not the only one on this forum that lives downtown. I live less than three blocks from the area that I've outlined above and I'd certainly rather see row houses than more gated apartment complexes like Renaisance. As far as cost goes, mlofts and Courey seem to be making a living.
I normally appreciate your opinion, but lately I think you must be drinking sour egg nog.
BTW, I would never advocate tearing out any old building, especially a brick one that could be repurposed and given a new life.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
It's what downtown needs. But to do it, a public magnet school needs to be inserted and designated as the only school nearby residents may send their kids. That would give the neighborhood an anchor. Actually, take back Central from PSO through TDA and eminent domain.
AEP is creepy enough to move into empty office space elsewhere and absorb some vacancy.
The churches are free to follow suit. Just no voucher shenanigans.
Young families care about good schools. My sense is that the availability of really outstanding elementary and middle schools are what is holding back growth and development on the north side of town. That must be true of downtown too.
In cities like Oakland, where everyone who can has abandoned the public schools, good private schools can make or break a neighborhood.
Downtown and the north side seem primed for growth. The absence of great elementary and middle schools is a serious problem. If the public schools can't fill the bill, maybe private schools would work.
I don't know if there are enough single adults in Tulsa to make downtown happen. I think you need to reach out to young families. I've never seen a town as focused on children as Tulsa is.
"Its winter jdb and frogs are not easy to come by right now." - carlton
That's why I built me a frog hut: central heating, comfortable seating, free-range flies.
So shoot me...
Thing is I would rather see slow growth - or even no growth at all - than bad growth.
The Rena. Apts being an examle of bad growth that DT is now stuck with, IMO.
The Home Depot, the Moss prison, and the Arena are all wonderfull similar examples of bad growth, IMO.
The status quo sucks, but walmarts suck worse.
Simply, I value quality over quantity, the status quo has been in effect for a long time and there is no over-night cure.
I am here as one DTer expressing concerns: be they happy, accurate or otherwise.
Repeated idle musing about what would be nice somewhere is swell, I suppose: but with no intention of one putting their wallet on the table, it does go sour.
There are numerous reasons that salty developers, with hip ideas, have walked away from the DT Tulsa market for decades now. Telling is what's befell those that didn't walk away. Address that and then we're getting somewhere, no?
Frog Hut timeshares now avail., jdb
I think now that the housing bubble has burst througout much of the country, you will be hard pressed to find lenders forking out big money for speculative, high risk development like row houses in struggling urban markets- at least for now.
The 'Chateaux on Central' in Phoenix is a good example of such a development gone wrong.
http://www.chateauxoncentral.com/
Built in a quiet and underdeveloped area of the central corridor, with a bad school system, etc, not one of the 21 units ever sold. Now the lender has foreclosed on the property, and a trustee sale is scheduled for February. And this is in Phoenix where there are 100,000+ people moving in every year. Of course the 2-4 million price tag per unit might have had something to do with its failure too.
I think a more realistic approach for DT Tulsa would be to convert and renovate existing structures first, see how those sales pan out, then start to develop mid to high rise condo developments in strategic locations. If all of this is successful you then will get the much needed retail and various commercial development which will then attract a whole different set of home buyers willing to live DT.
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
"Its winter jdb and frogs are not easy to come by right now." - carlton
That's why I built me a frog hut: central heating, comfortable seating, free-range flies.
So shoot me...
Its just my opinion, but I think those frogs would be more comfortable in row houses in a nice dense, hoppable community.
Hoppable Communities, while more contemporary than Huts, are high risk and finding lenders in the Tulsa area was impossible.
I built what I could self-finance and included design conciderations that would appeal to Urban Toads in the event the Frog market croaked.
The P.U.D. is still in phase one.
However, projections look good, and with the sell another block of units, construction on the much needed retail and service sector can begin.
jdb
At one point the "Village" units in the old Central Park were slated to be row houses.
The set of plans I saw vanished early on.
Then Savage waved a RFP and a bit after I saw the plans of what was later built and wondered why the change?
quote:
Originally posted by jdb
Hoppable Communities, while more contemporary than Huts, are high risk and finding lenders in the Tulsa area was impossible.
I built what I could self-finance and included design conciderations that would appeal to Urban Toads in the event the Frog market croaked.
The P.U.D. is still in phase one.
However, projections look good, and with the sell another block of units, construction on the much needed retail and service sector can begin.
jdb
At one point the "Village" units in the old Central Park were slated to be row houses.
The set of plans I saw vanished early on.
Then Savage waved a RFP and a bit after I saw the plans of what was later built and wondered why the change?
If memory serves me correctly they were also slated to start at 70 grand per unit. My how things change.
I was kinda disappointed after driving by the Village at Central Park... thought it was going to be "walkable" but found it to be otherwise (unless you mean walkable to Peoria?)
Yep, looks like the drinkers have "destinations" in DT but maybe if there were other destinations like...... drumroll please...... a Frogger Stadium that could benefit more metro area Tulsans than just the urban sliver of potential "east end" residents.... hmmm, a TIF that benefits more than just urban activists' wish lists?.... and you could eventually see a situation where city/county taxpayers could start to see the value of a vibrant downtown... after all it's Vision 2025, right? not to be confused with Vision 2008 or 2009???
Anyhoo, why worry about a magnet school in an area that doesn't even have a grocery store? The people who'd want to live within walking distance of shops/nightspots/restaurants, etc are rarely people with school-aged children... they're going to be twenty-somethings, "empty-nesters," and losers like me, who decided Chicagoland was just too friggin' expensive an area to buy into... and Elgin, IL too far from the city and still overpriced... and a Chicago housing bubble caused mainly by ruthless condo flippers/speculators and investor/slumlords who were in business for a fast buck, aided and abetted by irresponsible real estate agents...
I'd love to see truth in advertising, but understand that real estate folks will always be touting The Townhomes at Merlot Crossing over some downtown "row houses" selling for $70k a pop down the street at NyQuil Chase... And you know what? If that keeps my favorite nightspots and coffeeshops from closing down, so be it.
http://www.cityofelgin.org/index.asp?NID=501
So, does NyQuil Chase do lease/purchase??? [8D]
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
It's what downtown needs. But to do it, a public magnet school needs to be inserted and designated as the only school nearby residents may send their kids. That would give the neighborhood an anchor. Actually, take back Central from PSO through TDA and eminent domain.
AEP is creepy enough to move into empty office space elsewhere and absorb some vacancy.
The churches are free to follow suit. Just no voucher shenanigans.
Young families care about good schools. My sense is that the availability of really outstanding elementary and middle schools are what is holding back growth and development on the north side of town. That must be true of downtown too.
In cities like Oakland, where everyone who can has abandoned the public schools, good private schools can make or break a neighborhood.
Downtown and the north side seem primed for growth. The absence of great elementary and middle schools is a serious problem. If the public schools can't fill the bill, maybe private schools would work.
I don't know if there are enough single adults in Tulsa to make downtown happen. I think you need to reach out to young families. I've never seen a town as focused on children as Tulsa is.
Some of the best public schools in the state are right next to downtown Tulsa. Actually, they probably ARE the best public schools in the state. Emerson Elementary is only half a mile north of downtown. Carver Middle School is less than a mile north, and Booker T Washington High School is only a mile and half northeast of downtown. Throw in Lee Elementary less than a mile south of downtown too.
All four schools are less than a mile and a half from downtown, all are magnet schools and the best in the city, if not the state. Already, right now.
Private education in the area is very good too, Marquette, Cascia Hall, Monte Casino and The University School are all less than two miles from downtown.
Downtown education is top notch right now. There probably is not better area for a combination of public and private education anywhere in Tulsa, or the state.
Thanks Swake, I knew about Booker T. and Lee and actually learned about Carver earlier today. Good to know about Emerson. This should be an important part of any marketing of downtown and near northside housing. Isn't there another Catholic School in the Whittier Square area and doesn't Holy Family have an elementary or is that day care? And what about good private schools further north? Do you know of any? Really good day care downtown would be important too. Does that exist? Something like a downtown Montesori School (forgive my spelling) would be a real draw. If you could combine good schools with a perception that downtown and the near northside are "safe" you could pitch those areas as family neighborhoods. I believe police foot patrols would really pay off. And what a shame Central isn't still downtown. And Horace Mann for that matter.
While Tulsa might not be a huge destination for singles it already is a great place to raise children and that should be marketed to businesses and young married couples. Nearby day care and living in close proximity to work would support the family and a career at the same time.
Anyway, when I was growing up here the entire Tulsa Public School system was famous for its quality. We could make that happen again.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
...doesn't Holy Family have an elementary or is that day care? ...Really good day care downtown would be important too. Does that exist?
Holy Family's school runs from K-8th grade.
Kanbar and Kauffman are or have already put a daycare facility inside the First Place Tower downtown.
A couple of the downtown churches run top-notch day care/pre school programs. I know Trinity and First Baptist do at least.
Though I agree about all the other schools, I have to disagree about Emerson. Emerson started out as a great school, along the tradition of Carver & BTW. I don't know what happened along the way, but recent test scores, anyway, show they are behind the average for the district. I believe that Lee, and nearby Eliot, or Lanier are better choices.