I jsut found this sight so it may have already been adressed, but as I was reading the paper about the Metro closing, it said Tulsa Urban Renewal (or whatever) bought the buildings that TU is raising for their new campus entrance. My question is how come TU didn't buy the buildings? I know the business didn't have a choice in selling kinda like with the stadium, ("If you don't sell, the city will condim ya"), but whey are the taxpayers flipping the bill to add value to the school? In 15 or 20 years, will TU be able to say they need to expand again and take over Bama Pie or 100' to the south of 11th? Just curious, Richard
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4986&SearchTerms=TU
I personally wouldn't mind seeing TU (working with the City) have more control over its stretch of 11th Street between Delaware and Harvard. If TU wanted to make its campus even more attractive for perspective students, which is what they intend to do with their "front door" project, they would also have an interest in improving 11th Street. Making the businesses on the southside of the street more pedestrian-friendly to students and maybe adding some student housing above the businesses could turn that section of old Route 66 into more of a college district, something it clearly is not right now. Improving 11th Street and making 6th Street into more aesthetically pleasing corridors should be higher priorities for TU's admin. There is no reason 11th Street couldn't be as "urban" as say 15th Street or Peoria on Brookside.
Too bad the South Side of 11th along there didnt develope as a pedestrian mall with parking in the rear. Too much $$ and too much waste to do it now, so parking lots it is!
Try as we might, private enterprise is the only thing that can really make Route 66 in Tulsa anything special. It will never be Old Told Albuquerque, but I hope it picks up some more as it looks a bit rough around the edges!
(TU Alum happy to see TU expanding and improving. before the Reynolds Center you could drive by and wonder what highschool the stadium was for...)
Took some quick pics of the "Monster" today, thought I would share. By the end of this year TU and yes 11th street, will be significantly different. TU will finally start to have the feel of a real university. Hope they keep the ball rolling after this phase. I think it would be neat for TU to have the green go from where the college is now past the soccerfields, and continue inbetween 5th and 6th streets all the way towards downtown, and have campus buildings on either side of that. Having one huuuge grand space leading towards downtown.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/3736/tuconstruction024abgy5.jpg)
Here are a couple pics from 11th street.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8229/tuconstruction005abvr2.jpg)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3031/tuconstruction001abjv5.jpg)
Then from the other side you can really see just how much construction is going on. Starting with this pic on the West side of the campus with most of the first floors already framed in. Cant quite tell from the renderings if the buildings are to be two or three stories when complete?
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9061/tuconstruction006abmz3.jpg)
Then just behind that is this towards the East.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5651/tuconstruction013abce8.jpg)
And just behind that is yet another row and the new Case Center.
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8060/tuconstruction016abjc7.jpg)
And of course near all of this is the new Collins Hall.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/4579/tuconstruction010abpw2.jpg)
And behind that the newly finished Bayless Plaza.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/7498/tuconstruction020abhu0.jpg)
And behind that we are back to the green where they are doing some work here. I hope they take those old lights from the 70s that are lying down and replace them with some antique looking ones that would fit the building.
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3384/tuconstruction023abds8.jpg)
Artist, you stole my thunder!!! I took pics at TU two days ago for the very purpose of posting them here! [B)]
The construction really has started exploding within the last two weeks. In the pics that I took, the row of apartments with the 2nd story completed was a row of barely-framed one-story units... They have people working nearly round-the-clock.. In addition to this construction, there is construction going on in other areas of the campus as well, with even more apartments being built on the northeast side bordering Harvard, new parking lots and a nice new entrance sign on Harvard as well.
Plus, the City of Tulsa is re-doing Delaware Avenue, so it basically feels like the entire campus is one huge construction zone...
TU does more harm to Tulsa than good.
We need a 4-year public university...
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
TU does more harm to Tulsa than good.
We need a 4-year public university...
Huh? They are one of the top employers in the city. They draw students from around the country and the world. Their law school and engineering programs are top notch. Their athletics programs and games are improving and are attracting more fans, which puts more people in the seats at games and supporting surrounding businesses. Other than the dislocation of Starship and the loss of the Metro diner (which I did not frequent) I can't really agree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
TU does more harm to Tulsa than good.
We need a 4-year public university...
How does TU do more harm than good?
And, I agree, Tulsa does need a 4-year public university....
But if you were implying that TU is the reason Tulsa doesn't have a 4-year public university. That is not the case.
If TU is eating 11th, then it has positively devoured Delaware. As an alum, I want to see my alma mater grow and thrive. But as a Tulsan, I don't want to see a special interest be given special privileges, especially to everyone else's disadvantage. For instance, the new design for Delaware ignores the guidelines for on-street bike routes (integrated with symbols and signs), reduces the number of travel lanes, and forces an uncomfortable merge at 3rd St. Citizen input was ignored because TU wanted a certain design. But TU doesn't own the street, and now everyone who travels there will be affected by a bad design. If this is what it means for TU to "grow," they need to stay away from 11th St. The south side of the street will naturally grow to accommodate student demands without any "assistance."
And a side note: many years ago, TU lobbied to have the area west of Delaware zoned for multi-unit dwellings, which resulted in the rise of cheap crack housing. So the mess to the west was a consequence of TU planning for the future. Not very neighborly.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
I personally wouldn't mind seeing TU (working with the City) have more control over its stretch of 11th Street between Delaware and Harvard. If TU wanted to make its campus even more attractive for perspective students, which is what they intend to do with their "front door" project, they would also have an interest in improving 11th Street. Making the businesses on the southside of the street more pedestrian-friendly to students and maybe adding some student housing above the businesses could turn that section of old Route 66 into more of a college district, something it clearly is not right now. Improving 11th Street and making 6th Street into more aesthetically pleasing corridors should be higher priorities for TU's admin. There is no reason 11th Street couldn't be as "urban" as say 15th Street or Peoria on Brookside.
4-year university? I didn't know such a thing existed anymore. I thought it was no less then 5-year universities? [:P]
TU is becoming a very nice school. It certainly does not hurt Tulsa.
Let me see if I get this straight. Some Tulsans want to spend a billion dollars to build a giant island in the middle of the Arkansas river across from an industrial park that smells like a thousand diesel engines. At the same time, you would like to see a giant park stretch from TU to downtown through a ratty composite of decaying old homes, commercial and light industrial establishments.
First, TU has looked like a real university for decades and decades. Maybe, having reached its new and improved size, it will stop cutting off through access by closing streets (which emphasizes the separateness of TU from the community).
Second, there is a decent-sized park behind the school on 5th and Birmingham. Until the crack housing starts to disappear, the park is a little on the dangerous side. Then there's another large park behind the new brownstones between Peoria and HWY 75. I'd say we're all set for parks. However, if we decide to build more by displacing existing space for homes, then more people will move out to 209th & 51st St.(i.e., Timbuktu)--more square footage for their dollar, I guess--and these midtown parks will remain tenanted by the indigent and the gang members.
Third, let's take the billion dollars and RENOVATE the area between TU and downtown, making it a more attractive area for PEOPLE TO LIVE IN. Let's fix the so-called bike route on 3rd/4th St. so that bicyclists don't disappear down one side of a "pothole" only to reappear several minutes later on the other side. Let's add optical recognition signals and on-street bike routes (not bike lanes!) so that cyclists don't get stuck at the red lights around TU and will be encouraged to bicycle all around the area as it grows and is rejuvenated.
Let's not bite off California-sized central planning projects on an Okie-sized budget, spending billions to raise Atlantis, procure other expensive real estate, encourage sprawl, and waste residential space when we have so many run-down neighborhoods in need of salvaging.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Took some quick pics of the "Monster" today, thought I would share. By the end of this year TU and yes 11th street, will be significantly different. TU will finally start to have the feel of a real university. Hope they keep the ball rolling after this phase. I think it would be neat for TU to have the green go from where the college is now past the soccerfields, and continue inbetween 5th and 6th streets all the way towards downtown, and have campus buildings on either side of that. Having one huuuge grand space leading towards downtown.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/3736/tuconstruction024abgy5.jpg)
Here are a couple pics from 11th street.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8229/tuconstruction005abvr2.jpg)
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3031/tuconstruction001abjv5.jpg)
Then from the other side you can really see just how much construction is going on. Starting with this pic on the West side of the campus with most of the first floors already framed in. Cant quite tell from the renderings if the buildings are to be two or three stories when complete?
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9061/tuconstruction006abmz3.jpg)
Then just behind that is this towards the East.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5651/tuconstruction013abce8.jpg)
And just behind that is yet another row and the new Case Center.
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8060/tuconstruction016abjc7.jpg)
And of course near all of this is the new Collins Hall.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/4579/tuconstruction010abpw2.jpg)
And behind that the newly finished Bayless Plaza.
(http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/7498/tuconstruction020abhu0.jpg)
And behind that we are back to the green where they are doing some work here. I hope they take those old lights from the 70s that are lying down and replace them with some antique looking ones that would fit the building.
(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3384/tuconstruction023abds8.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
TU does more harm to Tulsa than good.
We need a 4-year public university...
Huh? They are one of the top employers in the city. They draw students from around the country and the world. Their law school and engineering programs are top notch. Their athletics programs and games are improving and are attracting more fans, which puts more people in the seats at games and supporting surrounding businesses. Other than the dislocation of Starship and the loss of the Metro diner (which I did not frequent) I can't really agree with you.
Yeah, pick up a U.S. News...TU Law is third tier. The only 'top notch' law school in this state is in Norman, and that's even stretching it.
OK einstein,
Are you playing devil's advocate or do you just really hate this city? Your posts are almost always negative to Tulsa, its citizens, and their way of life.
quote:
Originally posted by brhino42
Let me see if I get this straight. Some Tulsans want to spend a billion dollars to build a giant island in the middle of the Arkansas river across from an industrial park that smells like a thousand diesel engines. At the same time, you would like to see a giant park stretch from TU to downtown through a ratty composite of decaying old homes, commercial and light industrial establishments.
First, TU has looked like a real university for decades and decades. Maybe, having reached its new and improved size, it will stop cutting off through access by closing streets (which emphasizes the separateness of TU from the community).
Second, there is a decent-sized park behind the school on 5th and Birmingham. Until the crack housing starts to disappear, the park is a little on the dangerous side. Then there's another large park behind the new brownstones between Peoria and HWY 75. I'd say we're all set for parks. However, if we decide to build more by displacing existing space for homes, then more people will move out to 209th & 51st St.(i.e., Timbuktu)--more square footage for their dollar, I guess--and these midtown parks will remain tenanted by the indigent and the gang members.
Third, let's take the billion dollars and RENOVATE the area between TU and downtown, making it a more attractive area for PEOPLE TO LIVE IN. Let's fix the so-called bike route on 3rd/4th St. so that bicyclists don't disappear down one side of a "pothole" only to reappear several minutes later on the other side. Let's add optical recognition signals and on-street bike routes (not bike lanes!) so that cyclists don't get stuck at the red lights around TU and will be encouraged to bicycle all around the area as it grows and is rejuvenated.
Let's not bite off California-sized central planning projects on an Okie-sized budget, spending billions to raise Atlantis, procure other expensive real estate, encourage sprawl, and waste residential space when we have so many run-down neighborhoods in need of salvaging.
First off, those Islands aren't going to happen. However they did bring to the fore conversations and ideas that this city desperately needed to be considering... River development, a great public space, and something that it seems even you may agree on, dense urban, mixed use development.
Secondly, my comment about TU finally feeling or looking like a real university is just from my experience going to colleges that enroll 20-30 thousand students, versus TU and its enrollment of around 4 thousand. These colleges usually have a certain feel about them that comes from their size, the amenities they have, and the number of students that live on campus. When new students come to "scope out" a university, this look or feel of being in a large, active, environment with lots of people and facilities can play a decisive role in which college they choose. TU's campus has always been nice, and has in the last decade started to flesh itself out with both amenities and housing. Thus while it is still a small university it now is beginning to have the look of one of those larger ones enabling it to better compete IMO. And yes I realize there are many more factors, but improving each one helps.
As for the large park like space from TU to downtown. I was proposing it as just a notion to have something that other great cities have. It would not be something that creates less housing for the intent would be to eventually have mid rise and dense housing, and commercial structures all along it. Kind of like a Champs Elyse, or grand boulevard. Many cities have such places, (not just in California) and they have them for a reason. Now is the time to consider planning for one if we ever want such a place in our city. Its called looking into the future and taking steps now to ensure the kind of places we want a hundred years from now. Plus it would not have to be something that we spend a Billion dollars on, zone it with the future goal in mind and do what you can when you can and also enabale developers to know what type of structures and places they can build in the area and thus also enabling them to know the areas eventual nature and desirability. Again, it was just a notion and I am entirely aware that it will not happen. So don't pannic lol.
Sorry for lurking and replying to old threads, but if its from this year... its still game.
Anyway:
1) The only harm TU is accused of is buying up property in its neighborhood.
Without TU, that neighborhood would probably be crap by now. I dont know if you have driven down 11th Street lately, but you dont have to get too terribly far from TU in either direction to get kinda scary. Certainly there wouldnt be a strip of shops and restaurants sitting there without TU. Nor would there property values be so high for 1940's 900sq houses.
Furthermore, dont pretend like TU destroyed the Sistine Chapel to put in a parking lot. TU devoured its own run-down buildings, a head shop and attached business, a half dozen empty lots, a closed sports bar, and a diner. The diner being the only real loss IMHO. Even then, the diner could reopen nearby (or in the re-developing Pearl district to catch the downtown crowd for lunch, still on 66!) if it chose to but he wont. The owner will take his check and retire as most small businesses would do. TU also buys many life estates in the surrounding area - it rarely flexes its political muscle and tries to force people out.
So... the bad: closed Metro Diner.
The Good: Draws national and international caliber students to Tulsa. Provides sports and entertainment in many various forms to the community. Helps draw national attention to the city in a wide range of areas (from sports, to academics, to conference it hosts, and competitions it wins). Provides a highly educated work force to Tulsa's industries. Pumps hundreds of millions of dollars into the local economy via payroll, products and services purchased, people traveling to TU for games/conference, etc., and of course students moving to Tulsa and spending their money while living here. Provides endless opportunities for those interested in hearing speakers, concerts, or seeing art exhibits. Provides public radio to the area. Is active in the community in innumerable philanthropic activities from donations, to the College of Law's legal clinic, to individual student or student group efforts. And many, many more items than I dont even need to bother listing.
I think its safe to say the GOOD > the BAD provided by TU
I dont get the whole through access thing... it would be nearly impossible to have streets go through campus as there are buildings, a huge "U" green, stadiums, and housing in the way. The streets that are no longer through streets have been closed for nearly hundred years, unless there is some street I cant think of.
2) As per the law school being third tier - I suggest you research the criteria for US News rankings before judging anything by it. The most heavily weighted part is an opinion poll of attorney's. Obviously this favors larger schools who have more alumni on the bench as well as high profile institutions (many people on the coasts struggle to find Oklahoma and may not have ever heard of the city of Tulsa, let alone the University's school of law). Another guideline is how much they pay their faculty and what names they were able to attract. While TU has several world renowned scholars in some areas (Petroleum, Health Law, Sports Law, and Indian Law among the) it cannot afford the roster of other schools.
While clearly TU College of Law cannot attract nor retain the quality of staff and student as an ivy league school, the rankings dont tell the whole story. If baseball were ranked this way instead of playing games, the Yankees would win every year because everyone loves or hates them, the attract the names, and spend the money. Who cares if they can produce wins.
Check out on TU Law does in national competitions or how well the graduates do in their careers.
3) Richard: A private entity cannot use Eminent Domain and take property, they have to buy it. The owner of Metro refused to sell for even twice the assessed value of the property. The city forced the sale of the building and then resold it to the University.
The use of eminent domain is regrettable, I wish the University was able to find a way to make it work on a voluntary basis. But it wasnt a case of handing the property over for $1 to TU. Hell, even if it was, the city gets more bang for their buck with TU than any of its other programs...
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Without TU, that neighborhood would probably be crap by now.
Could be a Chicken-Vs-Egg argument...
What shape would the neighborhood have been in had TU not successively driven down resale values by systematically targeting properties for "future expansions" and "5-year plans"?
Why does the Unviersity's planned purchase of property drive prices down? It seems to me the area houses being purchased drives prices up. Furthermore, demolitoin of avilable housing further drives prices up because less are available.
Anyway, my observation is that the areas similar to TU are run down and the prices severely depressed. All along 11th Street the housing market is horrible. Likewise, most place North of TU have fallen into disrepair, a trend seemingly stopped by the Unviversity. This trend is repeated to the East of the Unviersity, where the neighborhood is still well kept and values high. West of TU such is often not the case. Plus, in my expirience, property values near any unviersity are much higher copared with simliar areas int he city.
In any event, if you were a member of the board at TU how would you suggest the University grow and continue to compete on a world stage?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
3) Richard: A private entity cannot use Eminent Domain and take property, they have to buy it. The owner of Metro refused to sell for even twice the assessed value of the property. The city forced the sale of the building and then resold it to the University.
The use of eminent domain is regrettable, I wish the University was able to find a way to make it work on a voluntary basis. But it wasnt a case of handing the property over for $1 to TU. Hell, even if it was, the city gets more bang for their buck with TU than any of its other programs...
I dont think the city has the right to use eminent domain for any reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Leah
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
3) Richard: A private entity cannot use Eminent Domain and take property, they have to buy it. The owner of Metro refused to sell for even twice the assessed value of the property. The city forced the sale of the building and then resold it to the University.
The use of eminent domain is regrettable, I wish the University was able to find a way to make it work on a voluntary basis. But it wasnt a case of handing the property over for $1 to TU. Hell, even if it was, the city gets more bang for their buck with TU than any of its other programs...
I dont think the city has the right to use eminent domain for any reason.
Well, they do have the right. You may feel that they shouldn't but it has a good reason for being. It was designed to make sure that one party or the other did not become so unreasonable as to seriously hamper the public's interest. I am all for private rights but greed and dishonesty have to be ocassionally balanced off with this tool. Recently its abuse to favor one owner over another has angered us all. I think I read the state of Oklahoma passed legislation to limit eminent domain to its original purpose.
Well put Waterboy. I prefer a restricted use of eminent domain also, especially in instances where private property is being taken to allow another to make financial gains (per the now famous case).
Most entities get around this by forming shadow corporations that slowly buy up land (Wal-Mart might for "Tulsa House Rental" to buy up property under the guise of building apartments, if someone knew they were selling out to Wal-Mart they would jack up the prices). However, a University is not capable of pulling this rouse AND isnt in it for personal financial gain. Universities are generally deemed to be for the public good. Still... they should negotiate, so it kinda screws with my mind.