Mr Dalton is unwilling to budge on his stance that the bus station is a road block to his development. Too bad, it was a very cool looking concept.
Tulsa World Article (//%22http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061116_Ne_A1_Hurdl13209#%22)
quote:
Both sides seem to agree the major hurdle is the bus station.
"They're entitled to their opinion, but quite frankly we believe the problem is more perceptual than real," Himelfarb said.
A bus station, particularly close to that area, will be essential in transporting employees of the arena, convention center and hotels, Himelfarb said.
"My view is, even if we were able to agree to move it, we would be trading one set of difficulties for another," he said.
Funding a new bus station also would be a problem, Himelfarb said, noting that federal funding was used to build the station eight years ago, and that places restrictions on its use.
Dalton said the development group will not waiver on the bus station and that it would be an issue for any hotel that would locate in the area.
"I've told Don that we want to be as flexible and creative as possible in how we get this accomplished," he said. "However, there are several items we have no control over, and one of those is the bus station."
Downtown Tulsa has great potential, but there are some "necessary, tough decisions" for the city to make, Dalton said.
Himelfarb said he doesn't blame the development group for looking out for its interests, and the city must do the same.
"Two different people can look at a project and see two different things," he said. "We are continuing our dialogue.
"I don't know whether we'll get to the end point with them. But I am certain we'll get there with someone. There is a new downtown hotel in Tulsa's future."
Right on, Don. That attitude about
the city's interests vs. strictly private interests is a refreshing change.
I wonder if the other chain cares about the bus station.
"They're entitled to their opinion, but quite frankly we believe the problem is more perceptual than real," Himelfarb said.
Great quote!
Jerks.
Remember Westin, there's nothing more expensive than regret.
Reading the article, it occured to me that Himelfarb shows the same kind of toughness and transparency that the Mayor did on the TPD raises, and is now showing with EMSA. Keen negotiators, this lot; they know how to leverage the media and the public:
quote:
"If you let a date drive you, you lose your negotiating leverage," he said. "You don't make a long-term decision based on the short-term impact.
"As bad as we want it, we have a responsibility to act in a businesslike manner."
I don't know about the rest of y'all, but reading something like this makes me feel pretty good about the way things are going.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Jerks.
Remember Westin, there's nothing more expensive than regret.
I don't think it's fair to blame this on Westin. The responsibility rests squarely on the Heavenly Hospitality people (who, from what we can see on their lame website, appear to have successfully developed exactly one suburban Marriott Courtyard motel.)
Anybody want to place bets on what year a new hotel opens in downtown Tulsa?
The economic development director is again telling us that another company is expressing interest in building a hotel downtown.
Yeah, right. Give it a rest.
Where were they when the proposals for this parcel were due? When the city put out the request for proposals, we were told they were getting calls "every day" or some such nonsense about developing this parcel, and mysteriously, only one inexperienced "developer" actually submitted a proposal.
Likewise, when they put out the request for proposals for that urban development land onthe northeast edge of downtown, we were told there were many interested parties, phones were ringing off the hooks, yadda yadda yadda. And yet, when prposals were due, there was exactly one.
Early in the year I heard about Heavenly Hospitalities development plans for Owasso, rumor was in a couple months they would get started on it. A few months later there was a topic on here about the development and it was said it would start in a couple months. Well its been a couple months several times now. Hows that development going in Owasso?
I think it is obvious that Heavenly's ambitions seriously outweigh its experience. Moving the bus station is nothing short of ridiculous. It is in a very central location for downtown and also could be utilized in the expansion of the city's rubber tire trolley system. Surely as the arena and downtown loft projects progress a more reasonable proposal will surface. Why don't we get John Q. Hammons, who built South Tulsa's Renaissance Hotel, to help out. He is known for his philanthropy (Union's new UMAC, NW Arkansas Convention Ctr.), and for developing world-class hotels. Not to mention obvious profits once the arena finally opens.
Huge thumbs up for Himelfarb. Proud that he's out there working on the city's behalf.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
I think it is obvious that Heavenly's ambitions seriously outweigh its experience. Moving the bus station is nothing short of ridiculous. It is in a very central location for downtown and also could be utilized in the expansion of the city's rubber tire trolley system. Surely as the arena and downtown loft projects progress a more reasonable proposal will surface. Why don't we get John Q. Hammons, who built South Tulsa's Renaissance Hotel, to help out. He is known for his philanthropy (Union's new UMAC, NW Arkansas Convention Ctr.), and for developing world-class hotels. Not to mention obvious profits once the arena finally opens.
There is a theory that Hammons was working with Lafortune to get the property and develop it. However, that theory was base don lafortune's plan to buy out the towerview slot. The city council shot that down. This single issue means a couple of million cost difference.
Bravo Don Himelfarb! It's nice to see someone standing up for the city. I get tired of the attitude of "This is the only chance we're going to get so we have to do it." Tulsa's better than that.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
I think it is obvious that Heavenly's ambitions seriously outweigh its experience. Moving the bus station is nothing short of ridiculous.
that is a nice way of putting it... these guys are bull**** artists... they don't have two nickles to rub together... thank go they got that arizona SBA loan for 25,000 back in march (half way down- http://www.sba.gov/loans/businessdetail/output/2006/busaz.html )
...
quote:
Originally posted by Dana431
"They're entitled to their opinion, but quite frankly we believe the problem is more perceptual than real," Himelfarb said.
Great quote!
Agreed 100%. Here in Charlotte, we have a Ritz Carlton going-up less than a block from our central transit center .... a facility about twice the size of Denver Avenue Station, but much less attractive. A mere 20 feet from the transit center is a mixed-use project under construction, including a dining/entertainment complex and a 50-story condo tower.
I may be biased since I worked on the Denver Avenue Station project back in 1997-98, but I believe it to be a great asset to downtown Tulsa and to the potential for an arena district. Sometimes it is worth the fight to stand-up to developers.
I could understand it if the new bus station was an eyesore, but it is actually a very nice modern bulding - AND IT'S PAID FOR !!!!
I think the real issue is, people who have to ride a bus won't be the kind of people who can afford their hotel rates. [}:)] Therefore, they want it gone.
I would like to see an affordable chain grab it up myself. We have a high end hotel down town already. A lot of people will stay over if the rooms are affordable and people who stay over will also have to eat etc....
So maybe we should be approaching Holiday Inn or Best Western.
Anyway, it's good to see at least one man putting the good of our city first. That don't seem to happen very often these days.
I predict that HH will cave and simply pretend its problems with the bus station never existed.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I predict that HH will cave and simply pretend its problems with the bus station never existed.
I predict HH will walk away and
blame it on the bus station, hoping no one will notice they have never developed anything anywhere near this scale, and appear to be in over their heads with this project.
The pratical progressive (//%22http://practipro.blogspot.com/2006/11/honey-jar.html#comments/%22) calls it like it is.
Can we at least implement some moratorium on the confounded train horn?? I read their concern about the bus station as code for concern about all the scruffy homeless types. But that train horn! Holy smokes!
^ Already taken care of. The quiet zone should be in place by next summer.
That is excellent news! That should help out quite a bit!
So the sticking point is the bus station? For whom do these builders think they are building? Urbophiles are known for tolerating such things as scruffy downtown denizens.
If they want to get rid of the homeless then they need to concentrate on getting the Salvation Army and other charity organizations to move away from downtown. The homeless will follow them.
It would be nice to relocate those places to an area where there is more room and put the food stamp office, Salvation Army and those places where there is better parking and away from the general traffic of down town.
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
If they want to get rid of the homeless then they need to concentrate on getting the Salvation Army and other charity organizations to move away from downtown. The homeless will follow them.
It would be nice to relocate those places to an area where there is more room and put the food stamp office, Salvation Army and those places where there is better parking and away from the general traffic of down town.
How about broken arrow?
Here's an idea a couple of years too late, How about putting the two bus stations together at the current Greyhound location. I know, it makes too much sense. I was in NYC this past summer. All the buses, local and intra and interstate originate at the same location.
And don't give me any grief about federal/state money. They could've worked something out. Everything is negotiable.
For my money, tear the new bus station down down, and bring in some PRIVATE development. At least they would have a STAKE in their HOLDINGS (pun intended).
That's a great idea! We should move all the people we are too ashamed to look at to other places so we never have to look at them, or even deal with them.
How about we move them all to South Dakota? That way we can just donate money at Christmastime, so we don't feel so guilty eating our 3500 calorie dinners.
I thought that was the unspoken reason the Salvation Army was built where it was - to be close to the Jail. It makes perfect sense, right?
I mean, aren't these the reasons for great ideas such as:
Gated communities
HUD projects (this is SUCH a great idea)
Specially named schools - for instance TSST
Hissom (Oh, bring back Hissom, please!)
That way you could keep all the people you don't want to look at away from downtown. It would be awful to have to actually face these "people"
I hope these "people" aren't "disturbing your sensibilities"
Hey, lets all go down to John 3:16 on ONE DAY OF THE YEAR and show our kids how much we really love these people. Make sure to wear your rubber gloves and dust masks. Happy Thanksgiving...
Funny you mention Hissom, because it might be the new home for Bell's.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
There is a theory that Hammons was working with Lafortune to get the property and develop it. However, that theory was base don lafortune's plan to buy out the towerview slot. The city council shot that down. This single issue means a couple of million cost difference.
What finally ended up happening to the Towerview site? Did the pair that wanted to make it into a loft project ever get anywhere?
There's quite a bit of speculation on that.
It could be that the current owners never intended to make the changes that they quoted to UTW, and always intended to let the price of the property skyrocket as the arena went up accross the street. Its also been said that they have been removing fixtures from the building. I've also heard that they claim that they did not get full disclosure on the state of the building when they bought it.
The Tulsa Development Authority has officialy rejected the HH deal.
Its interesting that the developer is talking about "screening" the MTTA terminal to the paper now that the deal is dead. He never waivered on that point when he posted here.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Early in the year I heard about Heavenly Hospitalities development plans for Owasso, rumor was in a couple months they would get started on it. A few months later there was a topic on here about the development and it was said it would start in a couple months. Well its been a couple months several times now. Hows that development going in Owasso?
Here we are, yet again, about 3 months after the above post. How is the development in Owasso going?
<caltonplace wrote:
The Tulsa Development Authority has officialy rejected the HH deal.
Its interesting that the developer is talking about "screening" the MTTA terminal to the paper now that the deal is dead. He never waivered on that point when he posted here.
<end clip>
Good riddance. I thought Heavenly Hospitality's demands were unrealistic (especially about the bus station) and, subsequently, not serious.
I am still have no idea what their "game" is? It doesn't appear that they are developers. Seems like they simply manage or run properties from what I can tell. Doesn't look like they have the money to build these developments before they propose them.
Its as if they draw up a pretty picture of a development. Then; try to convince a place that they can build it and get approval to do so, try to convince someone to fund them, and try to convince businesses like a hotel chain to let them use that brand ....all at the same time, hoping that each of the parties will not catch on that all HH really has is a pretty drawing and none of the other parts.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Its as if they draw up a pretty picture of a development. Then; try to convince a place that they can build it and get approval to do so, try to convince someone to fund them, and try to convince businesses like a hotel chain to let them use that brand ....all at the same time, hoping that each of the parties will not catch on that all HH really has is a pretty drawing and none of the other parts.
You just described a pretty significant percentage of the developer trade.
Is the city ever going to try to get other developers interested in this? Heavenly would surely compromise if there was any competition to speak of.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Is the city ever going to try to get other developers interested in this?
You can bet the farm on it.
Folks, it ain't closin' time at the bar. No need to go shacking up with the first person to come along. The bar just opened, the band just started playing, and plenty of potential mates haven't even arrived yet, but they will.
^ Thats a lie, a myth.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^ Thats a lie, a myth.
What is?
I don't understand why the city is looking for a new hotel when downtown has several underused major hotels. I don't understand why the convention center is being remodeled into a ballroom when there is a grand old ballroom in the Mayo. But then I'm still struggling with the loss of the Brook, Will Rogers and Delman theatres. Maybe another year or two of drinking Tulsa water will get me back in sync, inspire me to tear down something wonderful and build something second class.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^ Thats a lie, a myth.
What is?
"...plenty of potential mates haven't even arrived yet, but they will."
That part.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I don't understand why the city is looking for a new hotel when downtown has several underused major hotels. I don't understand why the convention center is being remodeled into a ballroom when there is a grand old ballroom in the Mayo.
I think that convention planners don't always need beautiful and grand ballrooms (like the Mayo), they need ballrooms with carpeting designed to hide stains that can expand to fit from 50 - 1000 attendees...which has nothing to do with grace or elegance or Strauss waltzes....and a lot to do with feeding the National Association of Associated Associates at round tables that seat 10 while a motivational speaker talks about surviving a shark attack and how you can find inner strength, too.
It's a different niche than the Mayo. But, hey, I'll support anything that will bring in more convention money. (Which would you prefer? Buying all your daughter's Girl Scout cookies...or having a bunch of strangers travel in from out of town to buy all the Thin Mints you can find?)
As for hotels...I know there is a market for more hotels like the Ambassador, which is often completely booked. In fact, one of my friends always stays there when he travels to Tulsa for business b/c he loves the beautiful, well appointed rooms, and being able to order Chalkboard restaurant food as room service.
(BTW, I heard recently that the Snyders are planning to open a "boutique" hotel in the old Vandever's building downtown, with an upscale restaurant downstairs. Next project after the McFarlin Building? I've got my fingers crossed.)
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^ Thats a lie, a myth.
What is?
"...plenty of potential mates haven't even arrived yet, but they will."
That part.
It's not a lie, there will be other development groups who will come along, but believe what you want.
^ Just speaking from personal experience. I once believed those stories, but now realize they weren't true. May be for most, but there is no assurance its that way for everyone, and thus if the analogy holds true, for everyplace. And you shouldn't tell people a lie and get their hopes up.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I don't understand why the convention center is being remodeled into a ballroom when there is a grand old ballroom in the Mayo.
The Mayo is privately owned. Its owners will never let the ballroom just be used for any public convention event.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^ Just speaking from personal experience. I once believed those stories, but now realize they weren't true. May be for most, but there is no assurance its that way for everyone, and thus if the analogy holds true, for everyplace. And you shouldn't tell people a lie and get their hopes up.
Buck up little camper. In order to attract a suitor you have to go to the party, offer something that is attractive to a potential and then spend some time finding out if you are compatible. We'll go to more parties..we aren't giving up just because we broke up with one lousy candidate that complained about the way our butt looked in our favorite jeans and told us our trains were too loud.
But the trains ARE too loud. Need to upgrade to vehicle-hardened gates so the engineers don't have to blow their horns at every downtown crossing. That would boost downtown residential development potential and enhance the hotel experience for guests who want to sleep at night.
Moving a transit station or dictating removal of unsightly buildings nearby is not only obnoxious, it's ridiculous. That kind of cocky behavior by a developer wouldn't fly in any U.S. city of Tulsa's size or larger. But the train horns are a real concern for a hotel or residential developer because it's a real concern for the 'buyer', whether it's a for a condo, a hotel room or an apartment.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^ Just speaking from personal experience. I once believed those stories, but now realize they weren't true. May be for most, but there is no assurance its that way for everyone, and thus if the analogy holds true, for everyplace. And you shouldn't tell people a lie and get their hopes up.
Buck up little camper. In order to attract a suitor you have to go to the party, offer something that is attractive to a potential and then spend some time finding out if you are compatible. We'll go to more parties..we aren't giving up just because we broke up with one lousy candidate that complained about the way our butt looked in our favorite jeans and told us our trains were too loud.
Possibly look into someone other than The Metro Chamber, "and all of it's ulterior motives" be the matchmaker.........
What about that fellow off "Starsky and Hutch" Silky or Huggy Bear whatever his name was..
[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by citizen of the world
But the trains ARE too loud. Need to upgrade to vehicle-hardened gates so the engineers don't have to blow their horns at every downtown crossing. That would boost downtown residential development potential and enhance the hotel experience for guests who want to sleep at night.
The train issue was already being taken care of before Heavenly ever made their proposal.
Link:
http://www.vision2025.info/includes/pages/updateddwtntulsamap/uploads/0/file.pdf
Perspicuity,
Thanks for the map reference. Do you know if there are any train crossings between the last intersection to the left side of the map (Guthrie) going towards the river? If so, it obviously wouldn't be part of the V2025 plan.
I was staying at the McBirney Mansion Inn in early December and it sounded like the train horns started blowing down closer by the river and then continued on through downtown.
Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by citizen of the world
Perspicuity,
Thanks for the map reference. Do you know if there are any train crossings between the last intersection to the left side of the map (Guthrie) going towards the river? If so, it obviously wouldn't be part of the V2025 plan.
I was staying at the McBirney Mansion Inn in early December and it sounded like the train horns started blowing down closer by the river and then continued on through downtown.
Thanks
I don't know if there are any other quiet zones. I agree, it would make sense to implement a quiet zone near the river. Could you explain the vehicle-hardened gates you were talking about earlier?
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Could you explain the vehicle-hardened gates you were talking about earlier?
Whoa, I was over-thinking there. Vehicle-hardened gates are just the crossing bars that extend downward when the train is coming, right?
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
Could you explain the vehicle-hardened gates you were talking about earlier?
Whoa, I was over-thinking there. Vehicle-hardened gates are just the crossing bars that extend downward when the train is coming, right?
Yep. Trains blow their whistles to warn traffic. By installing vehicle-hardened gates, there isn't a concern about vehicles getting onto the tracks, so no need to blow the whistle. So to have a train quiet zone, the vehicle-hardened gates are required by federal law.
Here is a link to a document that shows pictures of the various Supplemental Safety Measure (SSM):
http://www.rrcity.com/quiet_zone.pdf (//%22http://www.rrcity.com/quiet_zone.pdf%22)
Here's a link to the DOT where the whole thing is explained but without any photo examples:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1318 (//%22http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1318%22)