Shadows made the remark that we are foolish to be investing heavily in river development when we are a "dying city". I don't have the stats to confirm or deny that statement. But I did drive through downtown on Friday after paying a traffic fine at the courthouse. I tried to be objective (as much as a native can be) and I have to say, downtown at 10:00am on a Friday the city looks real sickly if not dying. Nordam has tons of spraypaint signing, the roads are abysmal (they actually throw you around), vacant lots abound, people generally look irritated to have to be there. Some tacky old buldings like the Bill White dealership, seem to have survived but are unkempt. Art deco beauties have gang signs on them next to their lease signs. The only indication of life are the churches and Central park. I could go on but its kind of depressing. My son asked why we are building the Arena so close to the homeless shelter and the jail. That area looks pretty rough too. I inquired about lease space just north of downtown and didn't even get a return call.
How about it TulsaNow. What would make me and my Shadow think differently? We could use some good news.
How do we make ouselves global? Obviously, from a national perspective, we offer no more than any other 3rd tier community.
Sounds like your kid asks intelligent questions.
OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[:P]
Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.
But what could we do on a global level?
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[:P]
Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.
But what could we do on a global level?
I'm not so excited about developing a global base. SiUkLo is right that a city develops its own personality. You don't go looking for one. If we're a good spot for global growth it will happen in spite of our best efforts to deny it.... and vice versa. Do you think the city is in death throes?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
OKC is developing a big system of jogging & bike trails, I think Tulsa should expand the RiverSide Trail system and make a city wide trail system similar to what Omaha, NE. has. The River area is Tulsa's biggest gem. or so it seems to me.[:P]
Except for the bad air and atrocious western visuals, I agree.
But what could we do on a global level?
I'm not so excited about developing a global base. SiUkLo is right that a city develops its own personality. You don't go looking for one. If we're a good spot for global growth it will happen in spite of our best efforts to deny it.... and vice versa. Do you think the city is in death throes?
That's nonsense.
Then take your idea to Ponca City and see how far you get with it. Apparently all it takes is want to be and some money. I think they have money there.
I am taking the idea from New Mexico which does not have near the aero space infrastructure in place that Tulsa already does but is moving forward on the same global theory.
Waterman, your comments are immature. Please realize our hope lay in the membership in the global economy, the global community.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I am taking the idea from New Mexico which does not have near the aero space infrastructure in place that Tulsa already does but is moving forward on the same global theory.
Waterman, your comments are immature. Please realize our hope lay in the membership in the global economy, the global community.
Sir, you are emblematic of immaturity. Lets keep the personal remarks to a minimum. The one thing NM does have in common with us is a poor, uneducated populace. It has plenty of illegals too, so I guess they're set up for Globalism. We don't even have a major University and you're ready to send us into Aerospace? Yeah, I think there's a high tech incubator building being used as a state employment agency downtown. We were going to make ourselves the high tech center if I remember right. Wait, Mr. Wizard, I want to see us be the top secret extra-terrestrial research base. After all we've got that Boeing hangar we paid for.
Ps. Oh, yeah don't forget we were bidding on that atom splitter thing that was going to catapult us into the next century. That was during the last century. Maybe we could gradually work towards something achievable in our lifetimes instead of looking for the "big score" all the time.
I think Tulsa is teetering either towards renewal or slow death. I read that if Tulsa hadnt had an influx of Hispanics that its population would now be back to 1970s levels. Is this what we are counting on for the future as well?
Even if the East End and downtown Mayo district et. al. go as planned, we will just be holding on, and barely. These things will take years to come to fruition. But remember, during that time those other competing cities will be moving even further ahead.
The natural growth of Tulsa just isnt going to do it, compared to many other places we already are dying. Our natural growth rate is abysmal, its barely hanging on. There isnt going to be another oil boom for us.
We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.
I think many of us realize that doing more with our colleges. Putting a huge influx of investment to grow them is definitely one very important component that Tulsa needs to pursue. Unfortunately I just havent heard anyone in the leadership of our community expousing that? Where is the big and bold vision for that?
But here is a chicken and egg problem, even if we have larger colleges we will need to be a city that can attract those young people to our colleges.
So I think we need to do 2 things at once to give our city a jump start that will get it moving at a higher speed well into the future, vrs the slow barely hanging on situation we find ourselves in.
I think investing in the colleges near downtown, I include TCC along with OSU and even TUs growth helps. Along with doing something along the river near downtown.
But it cant just be any old development along the river. We really do need something visionary and special. That includes recreational activities on and near the water. And here is where you may call me crazy and odd and perhaps its just my personal bias as an artist.... But I think we need something that I would call a "romantic component" added as well.
I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance. Through all our discussions about the river and other developments, even the desire to promote urban walkable districts, there has been something I think I have been hearing others say, with out actually saying it. Something that has been underneath the wants and hopes. The romance of a city, and it doesn't have to be mooshy romantic, romance.
Its that quality you get when you imagine the Plaza in KC, a coffee shop and the mountains of Seattle, the music scene, night life and river of Austin, a cafe and Eiffel tower of Paris.
Tulsa needs that Catch, that element that you can visualize, can say in just a couple words and everyone knows what your talking about, where it is, can see it in their minds.
Tulsa needs THAT for itself.
Despite the different elements that each of those desirable cities has, the unifying, underlying quality, is an element of Romance. An imagined quality that feeds into peoples hopes and desires, their wants for a wonderful life.
If something of what I am saying is true it means we cant just build any old thing. Because we may just unwittingly miss out on what we are really wanting. Yes this quality may eventually be found naturally as the city grows because peoples collective desires will unconsciously make it happen, along Brookside, Cherry street, Downtown, even along the river. BUT if we acknowledge thats what it is, we can actively take steps to purposely forge ahead in that direction. It wont be an easy thing, it will take care and thought, but it can be done. And I think we must if we want to really go somewhere. If we want to have that identity, spoken in a few words that will conjur a desirable place.
Our river has great potential for such a thing. With its hills, the downtown, beautiful neighborhoods, close proximity to Brookside and Cherry Streets, trails, etc. Enhancing that area with a dense urban, walkable, type development either in or right next to the river with a great public space would be just the ticket. But I do think one very important component should be some sort of monumental, readily identifiable structure or work of art. The channels has its solar canopy to do that, the piers has that and the modern eiffel tower structure. I hope I can get across the benefit of having something of nature. All of those things together, would get us that element of Romance for Tulsa, that instantly recognizeable, positive, identity.
Say Tulsa and river and bam, instantly everyone should visualize that space, what it looks like, what you imagine it being like to be there, and then those great things near it like downtown etc. No more people getting off a plane and expecting to see tumbleweeds. We need that positive, desirable, identity. We can either act purposefully to create it, or continue, as is, hoping it will eventually happen by chance.
Sorry about the loooong post lol.
Brilliantly put Artist, I couldn't agree more.
I keep feeling that there should be more I can do. Not currently living in Tulsa doesn't help but even if I was I'm not sure what I'd do. I got very involved in the Vision 2025 effort. I went to every meeting I could get to, added my opinion whenever they wanted it and maybe sometimes when they didn't. Even though I had a project I submitted make it on the ballot(it was the neighborhood part of downtowns and neighborhoods.)I still felt overwhelmingly meaningless. Hell I wouldn't of even known they picked my project if Jerry Lasker hadn't of told me, I still never got any credit for it. But that's unimportant and in the past. I want to be more involved but it seems like all the people that run this city are unwilling to listen to anything anyone not elite enough has to say. That is the number one reason I left the TulsaNow leadership coordinators group. The more I tried to speak my mind the more they didn't want to listen(there were a few exceptions). I had an interview with a Tulsa World reporter in which I said that I felt the Vision 2025 meetings were starting to seem like a big charade. I was quoted in the paper as being "of the organization TulsaNow." Not "speaking for it." Even though, this still severely miffed the other "coordinators" and solidified my exit from the group. I know this post is going long so I guess what I'm saying is that the problem with Tulsa is the people who control it. The average citizen has almost no power to affect the direction the city is going in, no matter how much (s)he cares. That in my mind is the number one reason Tulsa is a dying city.
Tulsa has diabetes. Apparently sales tax initiatives are the insulin according to some.
Is Tulsa dying?
Isn't there a thread going on right now, by the same "the sky is falling" crowd, that Tulsa is getting over developed. How can you have too much development going on and be dying at the same time?
Have Shadows or Axo ever posted anything that ever turned out to be correct? Axo is famous for "inside information" that turns out to be crap. Shadows is famous for rambling nonsensical posts that hint at much, and say little and hurt your head when you read them.
No offense Waterboy, but you have been drinking the Stakeholders Kool-Aid. (and Shadow's and Axo man's) You've let your personal distaste for the River Parks Authority drag you into The Stakeholders way of thinking. You've been played, personally. They are using scare tactics of "Tulsa is dying" to get us to back this ludicrous proposal.
For example, a falsehood you have been fed, Tulsa is an uneducated city, it's actually pretty high up in the rankings for the percentage of people over 25 with degrees for large cities, what we lack are people with advanced degrees. That is sad but understandable when we don't have a large research university in town, yet.
What we have is a downtown that is badly in need of help and a metro development pattern gone haywire. These are issues that need to be addressed. Does The Channels address any of that?
Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.
quote:
Originally posted by tulitlikeitis
Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.
Wrong about your post on dangerous cities Davaz. See the thread regarding dangerous cities and my response.
I appreciate your remarks. I don't agree with them though. I haven't officially made a decision on the Channels (no ones waiting with baited breath) but it doesn't take much to read between the lines. If you're reading my posts on the river threads you should know I am not part of the "crew". If not re-read them. To be blunt, there is much to be gleaned from their due diligence but I believe, like you, that the basic plan is just ludicrous. The dam too large, the backup too long and the islands unnecessary. It ignores efforts to co-ordinate and leverage regional plans like Jenks & Sand Springs. Flooding existing RPA lands is the final blow. But its a big plan that has redirected interest back to the river and they deserve respect for having spent their own money to present it. More importantly, it finally addressed issues that other plans have not. Security, Authority, Ownership, Safety and Cleanup.
Because I had business relations with RPA it is true that it biases my opinion of them. They have a long lackluster history of ignoring opportunities to develop. Thats why the Aquarium is at Jenks. And they duplicate other city efforts. But I sat next to Tommy, the current second in command over there, during the Stakeholders meetings. He's an able and aggressive manager and a good guy. Unlike other employees past and present there, he actually lives near the river. He was supportive of my business. I, better than most, understand the problems they face as an authority. Should I refrain from commenting on them because I know more than most about them?
Swake, I'm just commenting and asking for re-affirmation that Tulsa is not dying. After driving through several areas of the city: downtown, 71st Memorial, 61st Sheridan, and areas of mid-town it would be hard to disagree with that description. I am encouraged that stats show Tulsa has a high percentage of degreed people. Flesh those figures out a bit. A lot of corporation people left, they may not be current. As a native, they don't fit what I experience here. Intelligent communities don't re-elect the likes of Inhofe over and over. But my remark was that OK, like NM is dumb, and poor. Hard to challenge that. I am really hoping that we arn't in the dis-array we appear to be in. Convince me.
quote:
Originally posted by tulitlikeitis
Dying ... you mean you have just noticed. Tulsa has been dying for 25-30 years and one symbol of that is crime. See new thread.
have we confimred that this is davazz?
Dying?
Ha Ha...funny stuff.
All of you who believe that should move immediately. Cut your losses now. In fact, sell me your real estate. I will bail you out, so you can expedite your departure.
What makes Swake an authority?
My posts speak the truth.
Your posts are arrogant bs....
Speak to what it is that I have said here that is false....
And the fact is the Channels buffoons will use the Tulsa is Dying speach to scare you into support.....and if that does not work they will make you out to be a bad person ala Swake the Snake.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
Dying?
Ha Ha...funny stuff.
All of you who believe that should move immediately. Cut your losses now. In fact, sell me your real estate. I will bail you out, so you can expedite your departure.
Geez, does anyone read these posts? Or just scan them. Details Mazeppa. I'm looking for details that prove the statement as false. Cheerleading doesnt' do that.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.
I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.
Don't you think that whatever that element is, that it must be an outgrowth of the city's personality? Are we a romantic community? I remember when the Space Needle was built in Seattle and suddenly that city had an icon that said more than any Chamber slogan would ever say. They were futurist thinking, and dramatic. But that was an outgrowth of the city's people. It fit them. My complaint is that we keep trying on personalities like a middle aged woman tries on swim suits. They never seem to fit like they did when they were 18 and they usually don't keep them long.
Once that personality is determined we can do that one big thing you speak of and it will seem effortless.
Ode to a dying city:
quote:
I've seen love go by my door
It's never been this close before
Never been so easy or so slow.
Been shooting in the dark too long
When somethin's not right it's wrong
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.
Dragon clouds so high above
I've only known careless love,
It's always hit me from below.
This time around it's more correct
Right on target, so direct,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.
Purple clover, Queen Anne lace,
Crimson hair across your face,
You could make me cry if you don't know.
Can't remember what I was thinkin' of
You might be spoilin' me too much, love,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.
Flowers on the hillside, bloomin' crazy,
Crickets talkin' back and forth in rhyme,
Blue river runnin' slow and lazy,
I could stay with you forever
And never realize the time.
Situations have ended sad,
Relationships have all been bad.
Mine've been like Verlaine's and Rimbaud.
But there's no way I can compare
All those scenes to this affair,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.
Yer gonna make me wonder what I'm doin',
Stayin' far behind without you.
Yer gonna make me wonder what I'm sayin',
Yer gonna make me give myself a good talkin' to.
I'll look for you in old Honolulu,
San Francisco, Ashtabula,
Yer gonna have to leave me now, I know.
But I'll see you in the sky above,
In the tall grass, in the ones I love,
Yer gonna make me lonesome when you go.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Is Tulsa dying?
Isn't there a thread going on right now, by the same "the sky is falling" crowd, that Tulsa is getting over developed. How can you have too much development going on and be dying at the same time?
Have Shadows or Axo ever posted anything that ever turned out to be correct? Axo is famous for "inside information" that turns out to be crap. Shadows is famous for rambling nonsensical posts that hint at much, and say little and hurt your head when you read them.
No offense Waterboy, but you have been drinking the Stakeholders Kool-Aid. (and Shadow's and Axo man's) You've let your personal distaste for the River Parks Authority drag you into The Stakeholders way of thinking. You've been played, personally. They are using scare tactics of "Tulsa is dying" to get us to back this ludicrous proposal.
For example, a falsehood you have been fed, Tulsa is an uneducated city, it's actually pretty high up in the rankings for the percentage of people over 25 with degrees for large cities, what we lack are people with advanced degrees. That is sad but understandable when we don't have a large research university in town, yet.
What we have is a downtown that is badly in need of help and a metro development pattern gone haywire. These are issues that need to be addressed. Does The Channels address any of that?
As for the over developed thing. I honestly dont count having too many Targets or whatever near the suburbs as great examples of robust growth lol. I think one comment in the overdeveloped thread was about BA getting a lifestyle center. A. thats not Tulsa. B. Where is Tulsas lifestyle center. Utica Square? Thats really a sorry excuse for a lifestyle center actually. Not when you have seen some of the places other cities are getting. I dont think BA getting a lifestyle center, and I will wait to see just how nice a one it is, or Jenks with its half finished one the Riverwalk are again great examples of Tulsa even keeping up with the Jonse's.
The point also must be made its not what WE who live here think is growth from our perspective. Its how we compare to other cities and what others are now becoming accustomed to, so that when they visit here or want to decide where to go, how do we stack up in comparison. Getting a new Wal-Mart or a crappy looking shopping center off hwy 75 is hardly anything to crow about. Its like some small town saying, Oh lookee we are getting another taco bell, but are we becoming over developed with restaurants? Can we support a new taco bell?lol Its sad what we call growth here in Tulsa.
Last Friday we got a Latin friend to take us to two Tulsa night clubs that cater to 20 something Latinos. They were both packed with beautiful Latino men and women who were having the times of their lives. In one club there were many men and so few women that the young men were dancing in groups. The six or seven women that were there were getting an awful lot of attention.
When you are a 100 years old like me, the site of young folks making memories, stirs some sadness and longing for the days of falling in love and dancing until 2 a.m. and finding the poetry of being young in venerable old Tulsa. My partner was being kind when he told me that I could still be young in spirit.
Tulsa is changing and it has a future that looks different from its past.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.
I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.
Don't you think that whatever that element is, that it must be an outgrowth of the city's personality? Are we a romantic community? I remember when the Space Needle was built in Seattle and suddenly that city had an icon that said more than any Chamber slogan would ever say. They were futurist thinking, and dramatic. But that was an outgrowth of the city's people. It fit them. My complaint is that we keep trying on personalities like a middle aged woman tries on swim suits. They never seem to fit like they did when they were 18 and they usually don't keep them long.
Once that personality is determined we can do that one big thing you speak of and it will seem effortless.
I really think people could do with watching Michael Moores 'Roger and Me'. If only for the way that Flint tried to pick itself up. Flint by the way is a dying city, Tulsa ain't.
I think Tulsa first needs something to sell before getting its own gimmick. If Flint had got the space needle would Fraser have been based there? or Microsoft? I think not. I'm not having a go waterboy, just agreeing with you.
Thanks for quoting me, by the way. [^]
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
What makes Swake an authority?
My posts speak the truth.
Your posts are arrogant bs....
Speak to what it is that I have said here that is false....
And the fact is the Channels buffoons will use the Tulsa is Dying speach to scare you into support.....and if that does not work they will make you out to be a bad person ala Swake the Snake.
No, axo-you miss the point. You need attention so badly that you have to comment on everything whether you even have a clue. Look down your list of topics "Guns!!!,Eureka!!,OUch!,
Povery, Rumor???, Ozone?, It's come down to this!,who cares???, and Better River Plan coming"
Your topics even beg for attention.
Just please try to have something to say that is not a repeat from the paper or just some crazy guess.
Kinda little boy who cried wolf. You know, you might actually make a point sometime, but no one will listen if you keep up this constant banter.
I don't know if I would describe Tulsa as dying. I think what is happening is more like what has happened in Dallas, Detroit, St. Louis and other cities. At the current pace, the Tulsa area is becoming more like a Donut. The City of Tulsa is becoming more like the City of Dallas, the City of Detroit, or the City of St. Louis. People still work there but most people live outside of it and usually spend most of their free time outside of it unless they are going to a major sports game or a major entertainment draw (concert, play, ballet ect.) Unfortunately, Tulsa does not have a major sports team or a place for major concerts (but the area is being built for them) so the only people that are coming in are for entertainment at the PAC ect.
quote:
Originally posted by MH2010
I don't know if I would describe Tulsa as dying. I think what is happening is more like what has happened in Dallas, Detroit, St. Louis and other cities. At the current pace, the Tulsa area is becoming more like a Donut. The City of Tulsa is becoming more like the City of Dallas, the City of Detroit, or the City of St. Louis. People still work there but most people live outside of it and usually spend most of their free time outside of it unless they are going to a major sports game or a major entertainment draw (concert, play, ballet ect.) Unfortunately, Tulsa does not have a major sports team or a place for major concerts (but the area is being built for them) so the only people that are coming in are for entertainment at the PAC ect.
The thing about the donut idea is if you go to France or continental Europe the opposite is true and the suburbs suck, look at the riots in the French suburbs last year. It's nearly impossible to balance growth in the city and suburb, I'm sure people in France are having the same debate as we are just the other way round.
I just moved back to Tulsa and I don't think it is a "dying city" through and through. There are some very vibrant and exciting parts of town, and there are some very depressing and poor parts of town. Guess what? I lived in Austin for the last 6 years and I could say the same thing about Austin!
The biggest difference I can gather is peoples' attitude about their town. Everyone in Austin LOVED living there...even the poor homeless people loved it! Lots of people in Tulsa have a problem with negativity about our beautiful town, and I am not sure where it is coming from.
I went to D-fest with some of my friends visiting from Austin and all they could say is "Tulsa is way cooler than I expected". I couldn't get one of my friends from Tulsa to go with us because they just didn't think it would be cool. Why?? Because Tulsan's have no friggin' pride in their community as a whole, and so no one ever "hears" about Tulsa other than negative stuff.
Case in point: No one even bothered to have Oktoberfest (one of the "top 10" such events in the WORLD according to the USA Today) mentioned in the SWA in-flight magazine. One of my buddies came to Tulsa from Austin for that event and said he had never had so much fun at an Oktoberfest.
Bottom line...if you think Tulsa is "dying" take a look at the following areas:
Brookside - Infill development is popping on Peoria and housing costs are going through the roof in the nearby neighborhoods
Cherry St - Metro lofts are bringing new and exciting options to Tulsans for urban living and there is always a crowd at Full Moon, Kilkenny's, and Gray Snail...all this district needs is a monthly "after hours" street party to get all of the business owners to keep their doors open and encourage shoppers to come check out their wares.
Pearl St - Lots going on here to make a dream come to reality. Central Park looks amazing and the Village is very impressive (and almost sold out)
Utica Sq - Always a retail anchor, and the Thursday night concerts are always packed in the summer (and you can BYOB!). Wild Fork is the best place in town for breakfast...bar none.
Blue Dome/Brady - Up and coming hip areas where artists, professionals, and blue collar folks all intersect...if you have not been to Blue Dome Diner or Lola's for lunch, or McNellie's for happy hour, shame on you!
Riverwalk - True this is in Jenks, but it is nice and very family friendly, and it gets people off their butts to actually walk around after dinner/movie. Plus they have decent free concerts here you can BYOB to, which is nice.
Add all that up and look at all of the half a millon+ houses going up in South Tulsa and the ever rising cost to buy houses in mid town neighborhoods and I think there is a lot of evidence pointing in the opposite dircetion that Tulsa is "Thriving", not "Dying".
Plus, look at the excitement brewing about new developments (BOk Center, Utica Place Towers) and all the anticipation of developments that may be (River Development possibilities, East End/stadium, etc).
My suggestion...go out and enjoy what we do have versus complaining about what is "missing".
Try a restaurant that is not part of a national chain.
Shop at local stores when you go out Christmas shopping.
Tell a friend about your "cool" experiences with locally owned places. Especially tell a friend that you know goes to *insert chain restaurant here* on a weekly basis.
Spread the word that Tulsa IS a cool place and it WILL continue to get better if we make decisions that will positively impact Tulsa and our local economy on a daily basis.
I will stop my rant here, as I think you get the point. You were asking for evidence that Tulsa is not "dying", let me know if you think this is solid evidence, or if you think I am putting lipstick on a pig.
Thanks
JTC
I think you did a fine job. That was what I was looking for. It could very well be that Tulsa's personality is food and drink. I always thought we haven't made enough of our differences. The way the city has naturally separated into districts (Cherry, Pearl, Latino, Northside, Westside, Downtown, Maple Ridge, Riverside. These weren't contrived. They evolved. I agree with what Hometown said, we aren't dying, we are transforming. Like moving from childhood to adolescense to adulthood, its a messy process.
Yadayadayada
What a bunch of manure you threw out. Most those threads are chat or political.
You must have too much spare time....There have been no crazy guesses, no crying wolf.
There is thought stimulation, links of interest, and even rumors without this type of harassment on others (political threads exempt). You act threatened. That's weird.
Typically Tulsan you are yadayadayada...
I suppose "transformation" is pretty appropriate, and you are right, these parts of town have evolved over several years, they didn't just happen, and they weren't planned to happen (either good or bad)...which some might argue is part of the problem. I toured the Brady Heights and Owen Park neighborhoods last weekend and these are gems that some have already come in to help turn around, but they still need more attention to keep these neighborhoods from "dying". If the bad conditions took 80 years to develop, how can we expect to turn them around overnight? The only way to turn things around is to instill community pride (Tulsa Pride) and community ownership (I will not allow my neighborhood to be overrun with criminal activity).
As for the food/drink personality of Tulsa...I don't think this is entirely true. For example: we have amazing opportunities to view art (Philbrook, Gilcrease, Living Arts, various galleries all over town in the districts I mentioned previously), we have touring groups come through the PAC (and other venues around town) with Opera/Musicals/Plays that are national/world renowned (plus we have some very talented local groups that should also be supported), we have some of the best parks and recreational areas I have ever seen (our trail system is better than Austin's trails...just not used as much...plus Woodward Park, the Rose Garden, and Swan Lake, to name a few, are all spectacular places to go read a book/relax on a Saturday with your family/pets), Tulsa has a vibrant live music scene that although many ignore it it still exists (Adam Lopez and Citizen Mundi are two of my favorite groups to see live, and I have Adam's CD playing in my car non stop lately). I am always excited to find new bands to see in Tulsa, so please if you know of others let me know!
These are just a few things to do that don't have to be focused on food/drink (although live music is best served with a cold beverage ala G. Love). Discuss.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
We need something to put us on the map. Something that makes us enticing.
I think that one thing Tulsa is missing is what I would call an Element of Romance.
Don't you think that whatever that element is, that it must be an outgrowth of the city's personality? Are we a romantic community? I remember when the Space Needle was built in Seattle and suddenly that city had an icon that said more than any Chamber slogan would ever say. They were futurist thinking, and dramatic. But that was an outgrowth of the city's people. It fit them. My complaint is that we keep trying on personalities like a middle aged woman tries on swim suits. They never seem to fit like they did when they were 18 and they usually don't keep them long.
Once that personality is determined we can do that one big thing you speak of and it will seem effortless.
If our city doesn't have a personality. Who is to say that I a fourth generation Tulsan, on both sides of my family, can't draw something up on a placemat like the artist for the Space needle did and have it become an icon for our city? If our city doesnt have a personality who has the right to say what it is. How long are we going to have to wait for that personality to materialize? Another 100 years perhaps? You may have your ideas for what Tulsa is, for how it can be, but I have mine too. I think Tulsa used to have an element of romance to it.
I think the Rose Garden is romantic, the grand churches and skyscrapers, Philbrook, the new Centennial Park will be someday. The river could be, any new development could be. But not every one is. What I want to say is that I think whatever we do with the river, lets do it well, with that element of artistry and quality to it.
I didnt meant to imply that Tulsas identity should be as a romantic city. Its not as though any city is romantic to begin with and I dont think any city intends to become romantic, it happens through good growth, good planning etc. By having beautiful places, parks, artwork, buildings. Its what happens to a place when the people care about those things and realizes they are important.
When I look at the incog development I dont see that. When I look at other ideas people have put forth for the river I havent seen that. (like the plan the "no river tax" guy showed at the meeting).
What better place to have that element of beauty and romance than by that part of the river?
By doing something with that in mind for the river its not going to mean Tulsa is a romantic city, that that is its entire identity. That the lady whatever she is wearing will have that as a part of her personality. We can shape her personality. The people of seattle I am sure had as many different types of people and views as we have in our city. But its amazing how a few people can shape a city. The guy who said that all development in Paris should be 6 floors and a mansard roof and mr Eiffel. Two people who had incredible influence on the feel and look of the city and often quite at odds with what most would have wanted. The Eiffel Tower was roundly decried as being ugly and inappropriate.
You can fight for what you think Tulsa could be, I will fight for what I think Tulsa could be. I want a cathedral square, a great space by the river along with a work of art, and I want to have my grandmothers statue made. I got about 40 or 50 years to push for those things. You can fight against me and say I am wrong that I shouldn't shape something of this cities personality, but be ready for a loooong fight. And in the end, all of our different visions and things we do will blend together to create that unique personality for Tulsa.
As with every city, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher:
Hebrews 13:14
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."
But we are in a special place here in Tulsa, as this will be the place where many prophecies of Scripture fulfilled, such as:
Jeremiah 51:14
"The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers;"
and
Nahum 2:4
"The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings."
Keeping in mind how important this oil capitol Tulsa is, let us come together and reason: this place is Babylon, capitol of this spiritual Chaldea. But don't let the Beast power up his system before the time (Satan will be cast down as lightning), as their expotential rate of the increase of knowledge is waxing cosmic.
Artist, you may have misunderstood me. I don't know if Tulsa is romantic or could be. Seriously, I was just asking. I'm too old to know. And yes, I think you have as good a chance of scribbling on a napkin what our icon will be as anyone else. Whether anyone pays any attention to us is where the fight begins. Not with me. I like your designs just fine, and I hope you are successful with them.
I have no idea what Tulsa's personality is. My family moved to this area in the late 1800's. It was Indian Territory. Many of them were Indians! Mostly from the North East migrating down through Missouri and some up from Louisiana. But still I couldn't tell you our personality. It will become clear when our Space Needle idea is presented and everyone seems to love it.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Artist, you may have misunderstood me. I don't know if Tulsa is romantic or could be. Seriously, I was just asking. I'm too old to know. And yes, I think you have as good a chance of scribbling on a napkin what our icon will be as anyone else. Whether anyone pays any attention to us is where the fight begins. Not with me. I like your designs just fine, and I hope you are successful with them.
I have no idea what Tulsa's personality is. My family moved to this area in the late 1800's. It was Indian Territory. Many of them were Indians! Mostly from the North East migrating down through Missouri and some up from Louisiana. But still I couldn't tell you our personality. It will become clear when our Space Needle idea is presented and everyone seems to love it.
Duly noted, newbie[;)]. Are we a romantic city. Little snippets of it here and there. I would like to do something to create a bit more of it. And on the river, a whole big dollop of it.
But is Tulsa dying? I think Jtcrissup listed a whole line up of little things that in total are adding up to a lot of promise. I suppose that things have been so stagnant for so long that the things that have been slowly happening over the last few years just havent had time to sink in. Things like Brookside etc. would start then fall apart again, over and over, and you would become frustrated and begin to lose hope that real change and growth would ever actually happen. But this time I think things are actually going to take root and grow. I think we are at the tipping point to becoming a real, rich and vibrant city. Here is hoping for the best.
jt from what you have written.. I take it you lived in Tulsa before...
Originally posted by jtcrissup.
quote:
Tulsa has a vibrant live music scene that although many ignore it it still exists (Adam Lopez and Citizen Mundi are two of my favorite groups to see live, and I have Adam's CD playing in my car non stop lately). I am always excited to find new bands to see in Tulsa, so please if you know of others let me know!
These are just a few things to do that don't have to be focused on food/drink (although live music is best served with a cold beverage ala G. Love). Discuss.
Out of curiousity.... Did you live here when the "Observatory" and "The Jail" were still around..
I, like yourself, have always thought of Tulsa as being something of an Artist's haven.. I knew about Tulsa and "Strings West" long before I ever set foot here..Now, with the resurgence of Cherry Street and the Pearl District, I have heard nary a word about the "Strings West" Building or the History that walked through it's doors... I wonder sometimes why this is...
But then again, according to many, Tulsa needs a
personality...
Strange that the ones that remember anything other than the "Oil Capitol" monicker have all but moved away...
quote:
Originally posted by rhymnrzn
As with every city, the Lord Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher:
Hebrews 13:14
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."
But we are in a special place here in Tulsa, as this will be the place where many prophecies of Scripture fulfilled, such as:
Jeremiah 51:14
"The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers;"
and
Nahum 2:4
"The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings."
Keeping in mind how important this oil capitol Tulsa is, let us come together and reason: this place is Babylon, capitol of this spiritual Chaldea. But don't let the Beast power up his system before the time (Satan will be cast down as lightning), as their expotential rate of the increase of knowledge is waxing cosmic.
Perfect proof......
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Yadayadayada
What a bunch of manure you threw out. Most those threads are chat or political.
You must have too much spare time....There have been no crazy guesses, no crying wolf.
There is thought stimulation, links of interest, and even rumors without this type of harassment on others (political threads exempt). You act threatened. That's weird.
Typically Tulsan you are yadayadayada...
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Yadayadayada
What a bunch of manure you threw out. Most those threads are chat or political.
You must have too much spare time....There have been no crazy guesses, no crying wolf.
There is thought stimulation, links of interest, and even rumors without this type of harassment on others (political threads exempt). You act threatened. That's weird.
Typically Tulsan you are yadayadayada...
too much time...threatened=projection...aox[:D]
Rico-
I was born and raised in Tulsa and moved away for about 10 years (and recently moved back). What I am finding as a newly transplanted mid-towner is that there is a whole "Tulsa" I didn't know existed (or just chose to not experience it) growing up because of the sheltered South Tulsa attitude I grew up with (and some of my friends that never moved away still carry IMHO). It is fun to move back and "re-discover" Tulsa for all it is.
Tell me more about the "Strings West" building.
I remember in HS going to a venue near 6th and Peoria for live music with no age limit (but it was a good mix of young and old at the shows). Maybe it was called "Paradox", or something like that (anyone remember this place??). That was the extent of my ventures into clubs in Tulsa growing up, and I remember thinking it was super cool to be in such an environment (this was during Pearl Jam/Nirvana grunge popularity, and many of the local bands that played did similar grunge style music).
Anyway, the "Observatory" and the "Jail" are also foreign to me...where were they?
Thanks
JTC
quote:
Originally posted by jtcrissup
Rico-
I was born and raised in Tulsa and moved away for about 10 years (and recently moved back). What I am finding as a newly transplanted mid-towner is that there is a whole "Tulsa" I didn't know existed (or just chose to not experience it) growing up because of the sheltered South Tulsa attitude I grew up with (and some of my friends that never moved away still carry IMHO). It is fun to move back and "re-discover" Tulsa for all it is.
Tell me more about the "Strings West" building.
I remember in HS going to a venue near 6th and Peoria for live music with no age limit (but it was a good mix of young and old at the shows). Maybe it was called "Paradox", or something like that (anyone remember this place??). That was the extent of my ventures into clubs in Tulsa growing up, and I remember thinking it was super cool to be in such an environment (this was during Pearl Jam/Nirvana grunge popularity, and many of the local bands that played did similar grunge style music).
Anyway, the "Observatory" and the "Jail" are also foreign to me...where were they?
Thanks
JTC
The Observatory was at North 6th and Sheridan.
quote:
Originally posted by jtcrissup
Rico-
I was born and raised in Tulsa and moved away for about 10 years (and recently moved back). What I am finding as a newly transplanted mid-towner is that there is a whole "Tulsa" I didn't know existed (or just chose to not experience it) growing up because of the sheltered South Tulsa attitude I grew up with (and some of my friends that never moved away still carry IMHO). It is fun to move back and "re-discover" Tulsa for all it is.
Tell me more about the "Strings West" building.
I remember in HS going to a venue near 6th and Peoria for live music with no age limit (but it was a good mix of young and old at the shows). Maybe it was called "Paradox", or something like that (anyone remember this place??). That was the extent of my ventures into clubs in Tulsa growing up, and I remember thinking it was super cool to be in such an environment (this was during Pearl Jam/Nirvana grunge popularity, and many of the local bands that played did similar grunge style music).
Anyway, the "Observatory" and the "Jail" are also foreign to me...where were they?
Thanks
JTC
You are more than likely younger than I assumed..
"Strings West" is the building on Peoria just to the North of the BA.. If you look you can still see the bottom portion of the Guitar shaped sign.
It was famous in California as the owner Larry Biggs had a running add in "Rolling Stone Mag."..
He also supplied
rare hard to find guitars for some of Rocks Elite.. ZZ, Petty, Keith Richards, Van Halen, and of course Leon and many others.
He is still around only not at that location...
Try this for more info on "Strings West" (//%22http://www.stringswest.com%22)
As to the "Observatory", that was a club opened by some of Leon Russel's associates.. When it was first opened Leon was said to have been closeby the front door wearing Top Hat and Tails Greeting people as the came in..
You must first understand that was during the BYOL days and the "Clubs" were far more secure..
The "Observatory" was on Sheridan between Admiral and 11th.
Last, "The Jail" was just another club on 11th St at a time when TU exerted far less scrutiny and monetary muscle over the immediate area..
The music was always very loud... and as it was a BYOL the Bands stayed Happy.
The only place I can think of on 6th Street that fits the description you gave was the "Club Nitro" although it could have changed names more than once..
A fellow named Kay owned that building and still does..
Anyway..Glad you are back in Tulsa..
There are many, what I call, promoters of Rock and Roll and Music in general that have always been around the Tulsa scene.. It has always been an incubator for Music.. and Musicians.. many from Tulsa others from all points across the States.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by jtcrissup
Rico-
I was born and raised in Tulsa and moved away for about 10 years (and recently moved back). What I am finding as a newly transplanted mid-towner is that there is a whole "Tulsa" I didn't know existed (or just chose to not experience it) growing up because of the sheltered South Tulsa attitude I grew up with (and some of my friends that never moved away still carry IMHO). It is fun to move back and "re-discover" Tulsa for all it is.
Tell me more about the "Strings West" building.
I remember in HS going to a venue near 6th and Peoria for live music with no age limit (but it was a good mix of young and old at the shows). Maybe it was called "Paradox", or something like that (anyone remember this place??). That was the extent of my ventures into clubs in Tulsa growing up, and I remember thinking it was super cool to be in such an environment (this was during Pearl Jam/Nirvana grunge popularity, and many of the local bands that played did similar grunge style music).
Anyway, the "Observatory" and the "Jail" are also foreign to me...where were they?
Thanks
JTC
The Observatory was at North 6th and Sheridan.
Hmm, where exactly IS north 6th St. oh wise and accurate one? Not sure you are going to find such a street on a Tulsa map.
Yeah, I was trying not to date myself too much, but I was definately not going out during the BYOL phase of Tulsa. I couldn't even tell you what years that phase spanned (mid/late 70s??)
Anyway, thanks for all the information!
I know the "Stings West" building well, as we officed not far from there (I always wondered what it used to be). Too bad this building has gone into disrepair...in fact there are a lot of buildings on this stretch of Peoria (north of BA and South of 244) that "look" like they were once very cool, but now have weeds in the parking lots and boarded up windows. Hopefully Pearl and Cherry St developments/businesses will spill over onto this stretch of Peoria...there is so much potential here, but (I assume) developers are making more money (with less risk) turning Bixby/Owasso farm/ranch land into subdivisions/strip malls...this is sad to me, but it can't continue forever, and (I think) the focus is already starting to come back to the city core.
You freak. North Sheridan at 6th....er, Sheridan Ave. and about North 6th ....there is a tabacco stand on the west side of the street today.... the center on the east side of Sheridan has a mexican rest next door to where the club used to be. ....the observatory was where I first heard Carl Radle play with Leon...I also saw the Wilson Bros. there when they were very young....
Swake, today is your day you spook.
Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.
They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.
Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.
If we can't keep the people already here in Tulsa - what makes you think we will keep anyone else?
I agreed with a lot of what the Artist had to say. We ned more romance and we need that "thing" that makes us special and puts us in peoples mind and build on that.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
My son asked why we are building the Arena so close to the homeless shelter and the jail.
Did you explain to him that it's closer to the downtown transit center, the federal courthouse, the convention center, and city hall than it is to either the jail or shelters?
Just curious.
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location? It makes it worse. Being near a transit station is a good idea but I doubt thats the major reason why it was chosen.
All things considered, being so close to the court house, city hall, the homeless shelter and the jail was not a positive. Its a depressing area that we'll be inviting skeptical Tulsans from the burbs to visit and the first impression visitors to downtown will have.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
Yes, somewhat. There was easier land on the east side of downtown, but the hope (now almost realized) was that the East End would become, well, what it's about to become. Also there was easy land anywhere outside of the city center, but that defeats the purpose of a central arena gathering place. I was working at the Federal Building as a clerk when the site was designated, and I was puzzled at first. Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock, as well as the fact that it was the closest available site to the current Convention Center. And of course, you concede the public transportation issue. Can somebody toss a gmap into the mix and show these folks what I'm talking about?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?
While those two do not necessarily improve the location, they don't harm it like you say. It's a matter of having a consolidated city center. You suggest our town may be dying, but in the same post you suggest we should keep infrastructure improvements away from the civic center.
The reason I post is to suggest that anyone claiming that Tulsa is dying is simply, completely wrong. Job growth is up. Economic indicators are jumping. And you know the biggest, most exciting thing? The national decline in the housing market. It may seem counterintuitive, but as the cities that saw the housing boom originate begin to experience a decline, that money will go elsewhere. You can see it in Texas: as downtown high-rise condos in Chicago, Vegas, Miami and LA begin to falter, they are just getting going in Dallas and Houston because of cheaper land and less developed cores. And cities like Tulsa, with defined central districts, are next. Don't believe me? Read this New York Times column about Omaha (//%22http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/opinion/29dooling.html%22). It's tongue-in-cheek in part, but there serious part describes the exact same conditions that exist in Tulsa. There is no denying that we are seeing the beginnings of a major influx of outside investment.
I know you can begin to look at the trees - crumbly sidewalks, a couple of bums (nothing major if you've been to other larger cities) - and miss the forest. It's important to see the big picture of our city and realize that a new era of growth in the city core has begun. Be patient, run your errand again in 2009, and prepare for a shock.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?
It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
Yes, somewhat. There was easier land on the east side of downtown, but the hope (now almost realized) was that the East End would become, well, what it's about to become. Also there was easy land anywhere outside of the city center, but that defeats the purpose of a central arena gathering place. I was working at the Federal Building as a clerk when the site was designated, and I was puzzled at first. Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock, as well as the fact that it was the closest available site to the current Convention Center. And of course, you concede the public transportation issue. Can somebody toss a gmap into the mix and show these folks what I'm talking about?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?
While those two do not necessarily improve the location, they don't harm it like you say. It's a matter of having a consolidated city center. You suggest our town may be dying, but in the same post you suggest we should keep infrastructure improvements away from the civic center.
The reason I post is to suggest that anyone claiming that Tulsa is dying is simply, completely wrong. Job growth is up. Economic indicators are jumping. And you know the biggest, most exciting thing? The national decline in the housing market. It may seem counterintuitive, but as the cities that saw the housing boom originate begin to experience a decline, that money will go elsewhere. You can see it in Texas: as downtown high-rise condos in Chicago, Vegas, Miami and LA begin to falter, they are just getting going in Dallas and Houston because of cheaper land and less developed cores. And cities like Tulsa, with defined central districts, are next. Don't believe me? Read this New York Times column about Omaha (//%22http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/opinion/29dooling.html%22). It's tongue-in-cheek in part, but there serious part describes the exact same conditions that exist in Tulsa. There is no denying that we are seeing the beginnings of a major influx of outside investment.
I know you can begin to look at the trees - crumbly sidewalks, a couple of bums (nothing major if you've been to other larger cities) - and miss the forest. It's important to see the big picture of our city and realize that a new era of growth in the city core has begun. Be patient, run your errand again in 2009, and prepare for a shock.
Well, IMO they do actually harm the location. Maybe that is balanced off by the parking garages, which by the way can be rebuilt anywhere downtown cheaper than office buildings. But I don't think so. Don't assume that just because you work downtown that makes you an expert on site location. Many of us have. is there a compelling reason for having the convention center near the Arena? Is it really that hard to get around in this small downtown? That point is not strong to me.
Consider this as a business that you personally invested in that would attract the general public, including children. You want it centrally located. Honestly, would you put it here? You may have become hardened to the streets of the area, your suburban clientelle have not. They are already scared of downtown and there is no reason, I agree, but that's the way it is.
Thanks for your response. Again, I am trying to elicit replies that are encouraging and motivating about downtown. I live merely a mile away from its heart. I certainly don't want the heart to fail. There needs to be some confidence built that we are in fact approaching a better vision there.
I was downtown over the weekend. My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed. We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie. Since we both drove, I left my car downtown. We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).
Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn't been downtown that late in many years. I was really suprised--it was packed. Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc.... Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s. But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.
Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.
Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome. It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know. It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store. It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world. I love that about Tulsa. Is it dying? I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.
Yesterday, I was in Target. I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying. The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn't in a hurry. What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa. Move to New York and see how many people would do that.
As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don't think our streets are that bad. And even if they were poor, I don't think thats indicative of anything. New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic. Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.
Tulsa cannot be in that bad a shape. The city has low unemployment, the Sunday Tulsa Newspaper is loaded with jobs. A big attraction to a city is what it has to offer, and I believe the RiverSide jogging trails are a big attraction, many cities are building such bike/jog trails for it's citizens. Tulsa needs to rebuild the crumbling sections of the jogging trail and extend it down south past 101st street a few more miles, and on the west side of the river. I'm against that new project about messing with the Arkansas River and building a lake or island is a good idea, I'd leave the river alone as it is and just build up with what Tulsa already has. Tulsa has a great economy, jobs are booming.[:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock
Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock? I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . . Okay, where did you hide the other three?
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock
Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock? I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . . Okay, where did you hide the other three?
I was thinking of the Convention Center garage, the Civic Plaza garage, the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage, and hm ... okay three adjacent and many more nearby. My point was that abundant existing structural parking certainly drove the decision, whereas an East End arena would have required new garages or an expansive lot.
I dont mind the location of the arena and convention center and the parking garages around it etc. Some of those things need to be near each other. Its starting to be that those large, cold, sterile "infrastructure" type things, including the jail, are all off in one corner but if you go off in the other direction you will hit the more liveable, walkable area of downtown. Seeing it this way the arena is in the perfect spot, park on one side of it, enjoy the other side of it lol. And if they actually do build that development on the corner near the arena it will help connect the arena to the "better" part of downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
I was downtown over the weekend. My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed. We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie. Since we both drove, I left my car downtown. We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).
Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn\'t been downtown that late in many years. I was really suprised--it was packed. Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc.... Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s. But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.
Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.
Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome. It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know. It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store. It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world. I love that about Tulsa. Is it dying? I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.
Yesterday, I was in Target. I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying. The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn\'t in a hurry. What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa. Move to New York and see how many people would do that.
As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don\'t think our streets are that bad. And even if they were poor, I don\'t think thats indicative of anything. New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic. Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.
Your comment about NYC is absolute bulls**t. Take a look at the recent most dangerous cities list. Out of about 370 cities Tulsa is in the top 10% (of dangerous ones) while NYC is about midway on the list ... which makes NY about 100 spots more safe than Tulsa.
If you are going to make a comparison, at least make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by tulitlikeitis
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
I was downtown over the weekend. My husband & I met some friends at McNellies on Friday night, which was, as ussual, packed. We got a table, visited, saw several people we knew, ate dinner, then left for a movie. Since we both drove, I left my car downtown. We came back around 11:30 pick it up (which, I have to say, is way past my bed time).
Because I am normally in bed by 11:30, I hadn\'t been downtown that late in many years. I was really suprised--it was packed. Young people walking around, music blaring from the bars, etc.... Everything I would have wanted when I was in my 20s. But I was off in New York when I was in my 20s.
Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.
Tulsa is a wonderful, midsized town, that has lots to offer, but still makes you feel welcome. It has great restaurants, in which very likely you will run into someone you know. It has wonderful musicians, whom you can meet at the grocery store. It has undiscovered artists, laid-back lawyers (where else could you find laid-back lawyers?), and people from around the world. I love that about Tulsa. Is it dying? I believe the rumors of its death are greatly exaggerated.
Yesterday, I was in Target. I was standing in a long line to check out, and my kid was crying. The man in front of me said to go ahead--he wasn\'t in a hurry. What is wonderful about that is that I am not suprised--you find people like that all over Tulsa. Move to New York and see how many people would do that.
As for the streets downtown, I will probably get shot down for saying this, but I don\'t think our streets are that bad. And even if they were poor, I don\'t think thats indicative of anything. New York, DC, Boston--the streets there are pathetic. Maybe thats because they are so heavily used.
Your comment about NYC is absolute bulls**t. Take a look at the recent most dangerous cities list. Out of about 370 cities Tulsa is in the top 10% (of dangerous ones) while NYC is about midway on the list ... which makes NY about 100 spots more safe than Tulsa.
If you are going to make a comparison, at least make it right.
You OK.........Tulitlikitis or did you just want to pick on a lady..?
There is no mention of crime in PM's post..
Perhaps you are on the wrong thread.?
Happy Halloween[}:)]
^Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
^Not that Tulsa is New York, nor would I want it to be. If it had been New York, my car would not have been there when I returned.
At the risk of turning this thread into a discussion of the City. I am hopefull that her suggestion that her car would not have been there upon return was more on account of it being towed not jacked.
If it were a reference to being jacked then I would have advised her not to park it in the hood otherwise she would have been fine. Of course, we may have lived there during different eras.
I didn't mean to get into an argument about crime. Perhaps what I should have said is that I wouldn't have had a car in New York, because, dear Lord, where would I have parked it?
I lived in New York in the late 80s/early 90s. Cars were broken into constantly. People had signs in their windows alerting robbers that there was nothing left in the car to steal. On the last day in New York, my husband was loading the car. After locking it, he ran back to get one more item. When he came back down (maybe 20 minutes later), everything in the car was gone, and a pile of glass was on the sidewalk. That is a typical story from NY. People learn to adjust--never leave anything in the car, park it in a garage, or get rid of it all together. New York isn't a bad city, just a difficult one to live in.
We could argue back in forth which is a safer city. I don't care. I love Tulsa. I wouldn't live anywhere else.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
No one has asked me before how I responded. Fair question. I told him it was because that was the land considered most easily and economically obtained. Anyone disagree?
Then I noticed the four parking garages adjacent to the superblock
Four parking garages adjacent to the superblock? I am looking out my office window at the superblock as I type and I can see the Convention Center parking garage cater-cornered from the superblock and . . . Okay, where did you hide the other three?
I was thinking of the Convention Center garage, the Civic Plaza garage, the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage, and hm ... okay three adjacent and many more nearby. My point was that abundant existing structural parking certainly drove the decision, whereas an East End arena would have required new garages or an expansive lot.
I can give you one adjacent and two "nearby". But keep in mind that the new 2nd and Cheyenne garage was built largely in anticipation of the new arena. It could have just as easily been built near another location.
My smaller point was that the new arena location actually makes more sense than some folks would give credit. There was nothing on that block, save perhaps the Denver Diner, worth saving. And it consolidated super-block development to that corner of downtown, leaving room for more organic developement on the east side.
My larger point was that Tulsa is not dying - it is thriving. When discussing the health of the city, it makes no sense to point out a crumbly, about-to-be-fixed sidewalk while ignoring larger patterns of population growth, job growth, and property development in the city core.
quote:
Originally posted by sendoff
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?
It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)
How great a threat to the courthouse could a bunch of elementary kids possibly pose to it to make them want to move the courthouse? Do elementary kids have a habit of storming courthouses or something?
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.
They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.
Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.
First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro". As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro). For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:
CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or
I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or
I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.
So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand). If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers). If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).
I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing". Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.
End Rant.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by sendoff
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
How does being near the courthouse or the city hall improve the site location?
It doesn't. But once they have several school day matinees at the arena and have several thousand elementary aged kids roaming around, I think the Feds will get a clue about safety and start thinking about a new courthouse. (Mmmmmm......money from outside the metro.)
How great a threat to the courthouse could a bunch of elementary kids possibly pose to it to make them want to move the courthouse? Do elementary kids have a habit of storming courthouses or something?
No. It's the fact that there could be that many children near a federal building, not to mention all the buses clogging the streets.
Imagine a disruption at the federal courthouse as all the children are heading to/from their buses. Anything from shootings to hostage situations to bombings have happened in/next to federal courthouses.
New federal buildings have set-back requirements. Here is Nashville's planned federal courthouse - see the set-backs and planters that act as barriers.
(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Columns/Urban_Front/2005/09/22/URBAN_1_400-corner-b.jpg)
Tulsa is due for a new federal courthouse anyhow.
In that case, bring on the kids then.[:D] Oh and I get first dibs on the old building to turn it into a Natural History museum with perhaps a kids science museum section thrown in.[:P]
But back to the dying thing... I do agree that Tulsa is going throught those akward teenage years. Just now starting to turn into an adult city and hasnt quite figured out what it wants to be yet.
The suburbs will grow people will move to them. Then the kids will discover and want to move to the big city, will want to go to college, will have dreams of the cool city life. We need to make sure that the center of Tulsa doesnt do things that will discourage but will encourage that. Dont try to make downtown into the suburbs but make it a real downtown. Invest in those universities.
Many people after the kids are gone will want to live in a walkable, close knit community, with older and smaller homes or condominiums. Here is where areas like the Pearl District and around Utica will play a role. Promote form based codes.
Tulsa will have many different options for different lifestyles. At the moment each "different option" is just now getting established and has to compete with more established like areas in more established cities. But in time those different areas will grow and become more attractive to its different demographic.
The last 10 years have seen little fits and starts and failures in that direction, never really taking off. And has been quite frustrating to say the least. Just look at Brookside and how many tranformations and different businesses have been tried there. But I think now those different areas are settling in, finding their groove, their identities. They are small and just budding, but with a little nurturing here and there will take off.
I guess the arguments could then be, what kind of and how much nurturing we do for each unique area.
I really hope things take off this time and dont falter as they have done before, just when things start looking up they somehow have a way of crashing right back down in Tulsa. We arent out of the woods yet especially for a liveable walkable downtown. Still crossing my fingers for the Mayo area and the East End.
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University. It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.
It may have officially stated what was already apparent to those living here. We have had tent revivals, healings, and temperance movements here since our inception. Original townsite had many houses of worship including Jewish. IMO no more or less than other rural Southern states, though Broken Arrow probably has more churches per square mile than anywhere! Stigmatize is a little too strong.
Ok...laughingstock....that's better.
IMO Tulsa is not dying; it's on the cusp of a rebirth. Many great points to support this conclusion have been made above, and you could add many, many more.
For me personally (a lifelong Tulsan) I see it every day in my own neighborhood which is just south of downtown. When I bought my new old home two years ago I kept thinking I was making a huge mistake. I got it very cheaply, and most of the homes around it were in decay. I couldn't walk out of my front or back gate without someone asking me for money and the people next door were drug dealers. I was determined to win and I set about fixing up this house that I felt was a part of the history of Tulsa (built in 1909 by Tulsa architect John Blaire).
Now two years later (this month), most of the homes have been purchased and restored. There are kids playing in the yards, on bicycles or skateboards and we actually had trick or treaters this year. The drug dealers are gone and their house is under contract by a young couple that want to fix it up and live in it to raise a family. We also got some V2025 funds to replace the Carson arch (Tulsa Tech will do the work), create gateways around the neighborhood and turn an empty lot into a park. We are working toward an historic designation for our neighborhood and we've created an on line tour that highlights many of the unique Tulsa landmarks, homes and sites that are in our area. The area is vibrant again, not dying.
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
IMO Tulsa is not dying; it's on the cusp of a rebirth. Many great points to support this conclusion have been made above, and you could add many, many more.
For me personally (a lifelong Tulsan) I see it every day in my own neighborhood which is just south of downtown. When I bought my new old home two years ago I kept thinking I was making a huge mistake. I got it very cheaply, and most of the homes around it were in decay. I couldn't walk out of my front or back gate without someone asking me for money and the people next door were drug dealers. I was determined to win and I set about fixing up this house that I felt was a part of the history of Tulsa (built in 1909 by Tulsa architect John Blaire).
Now two years later (this month), most of the homes have been purchased and restored. There are kids playing in the yards, on bicycles or skateboards and we actually had trick or treaters this year. The drug dealers are gone and their house is under contract by a young couple that want to fix it up and live in it to raise a family. We also got some V2025 funds to replace the Carson arch (Tulsa Tech will do the work), create gateways around the neighborhood and turn an empty lot into a park. We are working toward an historic designation for our neighborhood and we've created an on line tour that highlights many of the unique Tulsa landmarks, homes and sites that are in our area. The area is vibrant again, not dying.
Bravo to you and your neighborhood. Glad to hear that area is turning around. That kind of thing often requires individuals like yourself, seeing promise and hope and taking a bit of a risky step. Each person adding onto the others positive influence and in the aggregate, creating positive change. And its especially important to have those people who go the extra step to do things like the historic designation, archway, and parks. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University. It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.
Bravo ... you nailed that one. You are correct.
quote:
Originally posted by tulitlikeitis
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
I think Tulsa started dying when Oral Roberts opened his University. It stigmatized Tulsa as a city full of religious zealots.
Bravo ... you nailed that one. You are correct.
That's COMPLETELY WRONG. ORU has contributed positively to this city whether anybody likes it or not. The Mabee Center attracted many more events to Tulsa than the Assembly Center/Maxwell Center ever did. Yes, the religious wingnuts from around the country who moved to Tulsa can be a nuisance... but Broken Arrow IS one of the safest cities in America. Period.
I'm tired of Tulsans who unfairly target ORU, Rhema, etc, etc... as the source of all our ills. Those people have done their civic duty over the course of many years and haven't demanded the kinds of taxpayer subsidies in return that others have...
The lack of high paying jobs affects Tulsa in a negative way. The lack of a high profile research institution to complement TU and ORU also affects Tulsa in a negative way. The lack of a
deserved MLS soccer team in Tulsa... well, that just flat-out pi$$es me off... [:D]
But there's still a vibrant undercurrent of "cool people" in Tulsa. Enthusiastic... creative... sure, some/many may move away in their 20s-- but that's not unlike any other midsized city. Gypsy's coffeehouse was a great place-- lotsa potential. And yesterday, I could barely find a parking spot to watch TU-Houston at the Fox & Hound on 71st & Garnett. The area around TU is much nicer than I remembered from decades ago. The "Up With Trees" people have successfully made Tulsa much closer to that "America's Most Beautiful City" moniker it had when I was kid.
And I can give several examples of "dying cities." A city I considered moving to that had cheaper housing was Rochester, NY... that city's been experiencing a slow death over the past couple of decades... they try, but there's been so many layoffs at Eastman-Kodak, Xerox, etc... I also tried Baltimore but those charming (and really cheap) row houses I saw advertised in the Balt. Sun were ALL BOARDED UP. Block after block after block of boarded up homes... Also looked at Indianapolis... vibrant downtown but still had lotsa boarded up homes...
I drove around most of Tulsa over the last couple of weeks -- sometimes just for grins... got chili-cheese dogs at Carl's Coney Island at Executive Mall... everything's changed... but nothing I saw was boarded up. New businesses, new people... it may not impress the local politicians this time of year, but I was impressed by the large number of hispanic business that have replaced the old "Tiffany Lanes" bowling alley. Even my childhood SkateWorld wasn't vacant... I mean, who would buy an old skate rink and run a business out of it? Especially in east Tulsa. There were some hoppin' places downtown, although I will complain that it's still too isolated and unwalkable other than a block or two around the Brady and Blue Dome area... Even OKC had boarded up homes in certain areas where I used to live... but I just haven't seen any evidence of Tulsa being a "dying city." No evidence whatsoever.
So, Davaz, you need a
time-out... just go back to your bedroom in Houston and sit in the
naughty corner... and, no, you little brat... you are not allowed to play with your
tulitlikeitis sock-puppet anymore... [:O]
I dont know if ORU really stigmatized Tulsa any more than the dust bowl image has. If we want an urban, "cool" image we just need to create it, to better promote what we have. I guarantee you I meet and run into more people who are not extremely religious or who complain about the "religious" types, than I actually run into who are that way.
I think we just need to get over it, move on, and enjoy our lives. It may very well be that the downturns could have been even worse. At least ORU and Rhema brought in some people and life to the area. Who can say if it would have been better without them? We are a big enough city now to have many different groups. I think the cityplex is a great anchor for south Tulsa, its still the largest office complex in the state if not the region, and we wouldn't have that if it weren't for ORU. Its been a great economic asett and investment for Tulsa, and mostly paid for by people from out of state lol. Sometimes the Lord works in mysterious ways [;)].
quote:
Originally posted by PRH
So you run into people who complain about the charismaniacs too? I knew I wasn't the only one.
Tell me what's your plan to hide the religious aspect of Tulsa from anyone considering moving to Tulsa?
Are we to hope new Tulsans just won't notice them?
I say we make the evangelicals so uncomfortable that they move to Colorado Springs. Let them ruin another city, as long as it's not Tulsa.
By the way ORU doesn't pay any property taxes, and neither does VICTORY or Rhema, yet they use all of our infrastructure.
ORU and Rhema are a big churches with a big presence. But when I go to Dallas I see some big churches and evangelical tv type headquarters there, but the city is big enough in other ways to not let them be their "image". No need to run them out, just keep growing other aspects of our city. It already appears as though the "good christian folk" are abandoning the central core of Tulsa for the suburbs leaving it to the "evil sinners" anyway[;)]. So to each his own.
But if you do want to run them off I have an idea. I will set up a fund so people can donate to having my grandmothers "Goddess of Oil" statue made and placed near downtown. "was originally intended, if you dont know the story, to be 40' tall and go where the Golden Driller statue is now but was sidetracked by the war effort" The fundamentalists wont come near it for fear they or their children will see it lol.[8D]
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7460/bwsidewflarewebsizelm9.jpg)
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4329/grandstatuewebreadywu2.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
QuoteOriginally posted by PRH
Quote
ORU and Rhema are a big churches with a big presence. But when I go to Dallas I see some big churches and evangelical tv type headquarters there,
It is not that other cities do not have these nutcases ... they do. It is just that the density in Tulsa is over the top. That combined with the "okie" is a turn off.
Oral ROberts - who he really is (//%22http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,964970,00.html%22)
Oral and others like him (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_televangelist_scandals#Oral_Roberts%22)
Let's face it, Oral Roberts made us all like like fools and idiots as he stole from those who needed help most.
Bring on the Goddess of Oil statue. It would be an improvement over fake praying hands.
quote:
I think the cityplex is a great anchor for south Tulsa, its still the largest office complex in the state if not the region, and we wouldn't have that if it weren't for ORU.
I have nothing against ORU and I think they are an asset to the metro area.
However, I think Citiplex has contributed to the decline of downtown and has affected development all around the metro area.
Built as a hospital, Citiplex was never meant to compete with DT Tulsa for office space. Citiplex has over 25% the office space DT has (2.2M sq ft vs 8.1M sq ft) and it has 10% of the total metro office space. It is almost 2 miles from the nearest freeway and opportunites to develop similar office properties nearby are nearly non-existant.
Citiplex is known for offering lower priced leases to keep the place full and the bills paid. This puts downward pressure on all leases in the area.
Plus, as Citiplex is held by a non-profit organization, property taxes are not paid on the facility.
Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.
Call me AFTER you experience OTHER cities... I have... MANY... MANY more than you will most likely EVER experience...
Tulsa is growing... Rochester, NY is a dying city... many, many cities are dying across the country... Tulsa is NOT one of them...
Good luck in your new city.
USRufnex
"forty-something"
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
Yes, Tulsa is a dying city.
Call me AFTER you experience OTHER cities... I have... MANY... MANY more than you will most likely EVER experience...
Tulsa is growing... Rochester, NY is a dying city... many, many cities are dying across the country... Tulsa is NOT one of them...
Good luck in your new city.
USRufnex
"forty-something"
DITTO. As someone has in their signature thread on this forum, "Tulsa's finest days are ahead of us."
That someone is Hometown.
Tulsa is a Capricorn. Capricorn gets better with time.
quote:
Originally posted by jtcrissup
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.
They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.
Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.
First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro". As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro). For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:
CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or
I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or
I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.
So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand). If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers). If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).
I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing". Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.
End Rant.
Thank you for this post! Why can't more people in Tulsa see it this way? It IS okay for the Bass Pro Shop to be in Broken Arrow and for trendy night clubs to be in downtown Tulsa. In fact, it's better that way. In OKC, there is the lovely Bricktown that is right next door to the Bass Pro Shop. How tacky! What Tulsa needs to do is encourage both urban and suburban growth-- which ARE two separate things!
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
quote:
Originally posted by jtcrissup
quote:
Originally posted by Sangria
Admit it or not - people are leaving Tulsa in droves. They are moving to Owasso, Bixby , Broken Arrow, Glenpool.
They are buying cheap land further out of Tulsa in the Mounds area. Tulsa is bleeding people and we need to stop the flow.
Perhaps we should be asking those relocaters why they left. It isn't the jobs - they commute to work every day back to Tulsa. So we can make an educated guess - they don't want to raise their family in Tulsa.
First...suburban flight does not equal "dying Tulsa" it equals "thriving Metro". As these people "move" to the 'burbs it increases our overall ability to provide various types of living scenarios for a wide range of people (which *gasp* is a healthy thing for Tulsa Metro). For example, if I move to Tulsa from somewhere else I can:
CHOOSE to live in Mounds and run cattle on the side while also working in Tulsa and taking advantage of all of the "big city" things like theatres, restaurants, etc, or
I can CHOOSE to live in the <insert downtown Loft project here> and be within walking distance to my job, places to eat/drink/catch music/etc, or
I can also CHOOSE to move to <insert suburban school community here> and live in a reasonably priced cookie cutter house so my kids will go to a school where I feel they are getting a good education while not being exposed to <insert generic sub-urban myth about "scary" TPS>.
So, what I am driving at is the Tulsa Metro has a lot of lifestyle options available to people as they move to our little corner of the universe (which like I said is good...people like OPTIONS), and the cost of each option is arrived at by market forces (supply and demand). If lots of people are lining up to move to Jenks/Owasso/Bixby, the cost of housing goes up (which is happening to the glee of housing/land developers). If lots of people want convenience/character/history in their surroundings they move to a nice mid town neighborhood and the cost of housing goes up (which is happening at an even quicker pace than in any of the surrounding 'burbs to the glee of area realtors).
I wish people would STOP segmenting Tulsa Metro into "competing" suburbs who vie for the right to be "fastest growing". Let's all hold hands and be proud of our region as a great place to call home, not try and belittle our neighbor because they made a different choice in where they live.
End Rant.
Thank you for this post! Why can't more people in Tulsa see it this way? It IS okay for the Bass Pro Shop to be in Broken Arrow and for trendy night clubs to be in downtown Tulsa. In fact, it's better that way. In OKC, there is the lovely Bricktown that is right next door to the Bass Pro Shop. How tacky! What Tulsa needs to do is encourage both urban and suburban growth-- which ARE two separate things!
Thanks for posting and for the kudos...
Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will. As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.
Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services. Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.
When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area. Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.
The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth. The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will. As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.
Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services. Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.
When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area. Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.
The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth. The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.
The time when Tulsa could go it alone is long gone. Tulsa's CSA is estimate now at about 940,000 people according to the US Census. That same estimate says the city is down to around 370,000 residents. The people that live in the suburbs now outnumber the people in the city of Tulsa nearly 2 to 1.
The metro is going to sink or swim together, the metro and city are not large enough to have distinct economic bases. The only distinction happens because of Oklahoma's quirk where most city funding is through sales taxes so the actual specific location of retail centers becomes meaningful.
And don't be misled. Tulsa is a big winner in the retail location game. Look at all the retail in Tulsa but right on the edge of the suburbs. This is true for Broken Arrow, Bixby and Jenks. Not to mention all the specialty retail that doesn't exist outside the city. Much more money flows into Tulsa in the form of sales tax coming in from the 'burbs than flows out. Bad road and traffic are only going to make the 570,000 people that live in metro Tulsa but not in the city more likely not to travel into Tulsa.
Tulsa is hurting because the suburbs are keeping more of their own residents sales tax money. But more than that all cities are hurting because more and more services are put on them by the state and feds while they get less and less money from those sources.
The money problem is fixable, cities in Oklahoma can asses income taxes and gas taxes and both would really help the budget, but who would vote for such an expansion of taxes?
The path to a great city to have healthy quality suburbs and quality urban core. And the only reason that Vision 2025 passed, was because it was a countywide vote. The areas outside of the city voted for it, overwhelmingly. Similar issues failed twice as city questions.
If the city and suburbs don't work together, then Tulsa, city and suburban, are in trouble.
quote:
Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will. As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.
Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services. Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.
When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area. Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.
The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth. The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.
I have to agree with TheArtist here. It is really fiscally irresponsible to keep building and widening roads when you cannot even maintain the ones that already exist. Would you add a room onto your house before you fixed the gaping hole in your living room roof? I think not.
If people want to live in a hay field thirty miles from where they work that's fine, but they are just going to have to deal with the narrow over crowded roads in the boonies. If they don't like it then they can move closer to work. Widening the roads only encourages more wasteful sprawl.
Sprawl after all costs us all!!!
The Bible casts the mold for this city Tulsa, who is likened unto Tyre in the following similitude. Tulsa is destined to become one of the points of convergence for the four corners.
The parable contained in the following passage is accurate and multifaceted: I recommend the readers to meditate upon it.
Isaiah 23:1
"The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them. (v.2) Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. (v.3) And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations. (v.4) Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins. (v.5) As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre. (v.6) Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle. (v.7) Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn. (v.8) Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth? (v.9) The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth. (v.10) Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength. (v.11) He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof. (v.12) And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. (v.13) Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. (v.14) Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste. (v.15) And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (v.16) Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. (v.17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. (v.18) And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing."
When we link these traits, we realize that this Tyre is a shadow of the image, and a daughter of the Mother, of the MYSTERY BABYLON, who would be revealed in the last time.
We are in the middle of it all.
^ Wow.
ummm yea, Someone needs to get out more.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
ummm yea, Someone needs to get out more.
Wonder what was in his eggnog
I was over on the TyreNow.org website reading about harlots and oppressed virgins and a link brought me to TulsaNow...
That was some fine babble there, Rhymnrzm.
My favorite line was "Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste". It has encouraged me to start recycling.
The ending says it all. It is all about durable clothing..
Does that mean polyester is back in?
I get Tyred just trying to figure all that out . . .
"..a garment mingled of linen and woolen shall not be worn by you."
So, I'm guessing 100% Polyester is durable clothing... but a poly/cotton blend?... hmmm... there's nothing in the good book about wearing garments mingled with fossil fuels...
What were we talking about? [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Building and widening more roads out to the suburbs promotes people living in the suburbs, not them living in the urban areas. As long as its easier to build out not up, people will. As long as it costs less and is easier to build in an empty field than in the central core, people will. As long as people keep moving out and spreading out, so will the businesses that cater to them.
Money that could be used to improve the urban areas is instead used for building ever more roads, then widening them, paying for upkeep, paying to police larger sprawling areas, more fire departments, sewage/water, and all kinds of other infrastructure and services. Its not as though the population of the city is growing so rapidly that it really needs to be spending all the money to do that. Its basically the same population just spreading out further and further along with the tax dollars trying to keep up with the sprawl.
When Tulsa was called the most beautiful city in America its central core had population densities of around 3,000 people per square mile. Which makes for a very efficient use of tax dollars to maintain and have the best infrastructure in a small area versus today having people spread out over a much larger area. Then they complain about traffic and want roads widened and those who want to live in a dense, urban, walkable area are quite hard pressed to find that in Tulsa because there is no longer the density to support it.
The city of Tulsa need not be in the business of promoting suburban growth. The suburbs are quite capable of doing that. Tulsa needs to spend its time, money and effort promoting urban growth, becoming a city. Trust me, the suburbs will take care of themselves.
The time when Tulsa could go it alone is long gone. Tulsa's CSA is estimate now at about 940,000 people according to the US Census. That same estimate says the city is down to around 370,000 residents. The people that live in the suburbs now outnumber the people in the city of Tulsa nearly 2 to 1.
The metro is going to sink or swim together, the metro and city are not large enough to have distinct economic bases. The only distinction happens because of Oklahoma's quirk where most city funding is through sales taxes so the actual specific location of retail centers becomes meaningful.
And don't be misled. Tulsa is a big winner in the retail location game. Look at all the retail in Tulsa but right on the edge of the suburbs. This is true for Broken Arrow, Bixby and Jenks. Not to mention all the specialty retail that doesn't exist outside the city. Much more money flows into Tulsa in the form of sales tax coming in from the 'burbs than flows out. Bad road and traffic are only going to make the 570,000 people that live in metro Tulsa but not in the city more likely not to travel into Tulsa.
Tulsa is hurting because the suburbs are keeping more of their own residents sales tax money. But more than that all cities are hurting because more and more services are put on them by the state and feds while they get less and less money from those sources.
The money problem is fixable, cities in Oklahoma can asses income taxes and gas taxes and both would really help the budget, but who would vote for such an expansion of taxes?
The path to a great city to have healthy quality suburbs and quality urban core. And the only reason that Vision 2025 passed, was because it was a countywide vote. The areas outside of the city voted for it, overwhelmingly. Similar issues failed twice as city questions.
If the city and suburbs don't work together, then Tulsa, city and suburban, are in trouble.
How is that sales tax collection going out in Jenks? Not so good, huh. Let's see, when Tulsa takes steps to end it's donor status to the burbs and stands up for it's own interests to the County, sales taxes improve and the economy grows. Could it be that Tulsans have stopped spending money out there because of the arrogant, demanding, inflexible, attitudes of Jenk's city leaders whose inflated egos led them to think they could throw their weight around and dictate how Tulsa will do things. Big mistake there, because they awoke a sleeping giant and got crushed likes bugs under foot. Tough luck, on your bridge there. Poor Vreeland must be crying himself to sleep at night since this bridge scam will not go forward without a vote of a very skeptical public. It seems to me that the burbs need Tulsa more than Tulsa needs the burbs.
quote:
Originally posted by rhymnrzn
The Bible casts the mold for this city Tulsa, who is likened unto Tyre in the following similitude. Tulsa is destined to become one of the points of convergence for the four corners.
The parable contained in the following passage is accurate and multifaceted: I recommend the readers to meditate upon it.
Isaiah 23:1
"The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them. (v.2) Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished. (v.3) And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations. (v.4) Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins. (v.5) As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre. (v.6) Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle. (v.7) Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn. (v.8) Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth? (v.9) The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth. (v.10) Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength. (v.11) He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof. (v.12) And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest. (v.13) Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin. (v.14) Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste. (v.15) And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. (v.16) Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. (v.17) And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. (v.18) And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing."
When we link these traits, we realize that this Tyre is a shadow of the image, and a daughter of the Mother, of the MYSTERY BABYLON, who would be revealed in the last time.
We are in the middle of it all.
Let me guess, you think Jesus was born in the year zero, right? Evolution and Creation, mutually exclusive? Did you build a bomb shelter for Y2K? I'm all for religious diversity, but some people are just so far out there...
What ever happened to the education half of the subject "religious education?"
^Don't feed the trolls.
On topic: this article in the Tulsa World. Dying? Not quite by the numbers.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061228_To_A1_Areaj37599
Area job numbers booming
By LAURIE WINSLOW World Staff Writer
12/28/2006
November proved to be another positive month for job growth in the Tulsa area, sending employment totals into record territory.
Not only did the seven-county metropolitan area add jobs during the month, but it also posted over-the-year job gains as well, according to preliminary data released Wednesday by the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission.
While the area added 1,600 jobs during the month, it recorded a gain of 10,400 jobs over November 2005. Total nonfarm employment for the area rose to 429,700, up from a revised 428,100 in October.
The Tulsa metro area earlier this year marked its recovery from a sharp economic downturn that saw it lose 28,000 jobs from 2001 to 2003. In May, the area surpassed its previous record employment total of 421,200, set in December 2000.
November's numbers continued a pattern in which the metro area has posted over-the-year job gains every month this year and in 2005.
The Tulsa area's unemployment rate held steady at 3.5 percent for the month. A year earlier, it was 3.9 percent.
"Going into the new year, it bodes well for a strong year that will surpass certainly the U.S. and the state economy," said Bob Ball, research manager for the Tulsa Metro Chamber.
Ball noted that the Tulsa area accounted for 52 percent of Oklahoma's over-the-year nonfarm job gains in November. The state had 19,900 more nonfarm jobs than it had in November 2005.
Economists have noted how an economic slowdown at the national level should soften growth for both the state and metro area next year. Even with the downturn, however, the Tulsa area is still expected to add jobs next year and lead the state in job growth.
Job gains for the Tulsa area in 2007 are projected for health-care services; professional, scientific and technical services; and state and local government, according to a recent economic report.
The Tulsa area's labor force -- the number of people working or looking for work -- was 464,480 in November, according to the Oklahoma Employment Security Commission. Overall employment, which includes farm jobs and self-employed people, was 448,110.
The number of unemployed people totaled 16,370.
Among individual sectors, the metro area's manufacturing was strong in November, adding 1,000 jobs from a year earlier for a 2.1 percent gain, Ball said. The sector lost 100 jobs during the month, however.
Basically, all of the Tulsa area's manufacturing growth has been in machinery manufacturing, Ball said.
Tulsa's professional and business services continued to add jobs on an over-the-year basis, with 3,600 more jobs than a year earlier. It gained 100 jobs over the month.
And Tulsa's education and health services added 300 jobs over the month and 1,600 jobs over the year in November, according to the commission.
Of the state's other two metro areas, Oklahoma City's jobless rate rose to 3.6 percent in November, while Lawton's increased to 4.4 percent.
Oklahoma's unemployment rate rose to 3.7 percent.
"The number of unemployed people totaled 16,370."
"Among individual sectors, the metro area's manufacturing was strong in November, adding 1,000 jobs from a year earlier for a 2.1 percent gain, Ball said. The sector lost 100 jobs during the month, however."
These statements maketh me think this piece is propaganda. How to lie with statistics?
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
^Don't feed the trolls.
On topic:.....................
Topic on.........