The river flow for the past few weeks has been negligible. I know the Keystone Lake is well under normal levels but this is unusual for this time of year. Currently the discharge is -0- and the depth at the 11th street bridge is less than a foot. Its stressful on the fish and wildlife. Many people have been told that the Corps had agreed to keep enough of a stream running to keep the fish species alive. Apparently that is not accurate. Lots of people at Oktoberfest and the Channels is shifting into gear. Maybe they're saving up water for the Centennial in Mid November which has some activities on and near the river. Hmmm.
From the Corps of Engineers website:
Discharge on this date from the Keystone Dam for previous 41 years of measure.
Current discharge: -0-
Previous Minimum: 195cfs in 1981
20% of all discharges were over 1160cfs
The Median discharge was 2540cfs
The Mean discharge was 7460cfs
80% of all discharges were over 8580cfs
The Maximum discharge on this date was 75,000cfs in 1984
I was wondering that myself. Rarely, do you see islands in the river between the pedestrian bridge and 21st, but today it looked almost as empty as past the low water damn.
If someone is trying to make a point, though, I am not sure what that would be.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
I was wondering that myself. Rarely, do you see islands in the river between the pedestrian bridge and 21st, but today it looked almost as empty as past the low water damn.
If someone is trying to make a point, though, I am not sure what that would be.
How better to spur interest in a dam that would create a lush group of islands than to contrast it with what it looks like now? Kind of like "before and after" views. Maybe there is another good reason but never have I seen it this low, this long. And yet no one in the press says anything, no one at the corps sends a press release. I am beginning to think the corps simply does not care period.
If they are holding water for the Centennial celebrations that implies that they can and will manipulate the levels for commercial reasons other than hydro-electric generation which is unthinkable for them.
True, but they could just as well be making a different point--spend all the money you want on damns and islands and whatnot. Ultimately, we will decide whether you have water or not (insert evil laugh--you know, don't mess with us, we're the Corps). Personally, my first thought was how ugly those islands might look with no water in the river, and if a low water damn doesn't maintain enough water, how will any damn do so?
Really, I know no one working for the Corps, and I don't know their motivation. They could be great guys.
They're just guys (and dolls) doing what the Army tells them. Some water will always be in the channels theoretically because the Corps pays for its operation by selling Hydro-electric power thru SW Power. And the Channels dam is so tall it can hold water longer. Course it will never be built.
Maybe its repairs on equipment or work around a pipeline. Seems like there is a story there. Someone will clue us in eventually.
Of course the Corps of Engineers can manipulate the flows out of Keystone lake and into the Arkansas River. They have many different factors to help make their decisions. They have to consider power needs, flood control capacity, recreation uses of both the lake and the river, even consideration for spawning seasons for fish.
I think they decide things like, well, engineers.
The late JD Metcalfe used to say "it is hard to be politically correct, engineeringly sound and perfectly timed".
The Corps always keeps the levels full in the river during late April and early May during striper spawning season. The Riverparks bans fishing during those periods because the fish all congregate near the pedestrian bridge.
I know they can manipulate the water levels. But not for commercial reasons or recreational reasons like downstream rowing regattas, sailboating, celebrations etc. That is not something they consider. Was always told they would keep enough in the river to keep the fish alive but was recently told that even that is of no concern except in the spring when they can afford to let water out anyway. -0 - flow is quite strange for such a long period.
Could it be that upstream they have not had much rain and thus the lake level doesnt need to be lowered or that the lake itself already is low? Even though we have had some rain I think we are still low and the counties to the west of us have had burn bans in effect for quite a while because of lack of rain. Just a guess and too worn out to look for info lol.
Not sure if it still the case....but back in early August a buddy of mine who is an underwater welder told me he was getting ready to do some work out at Keystone Dam.
Take it for what's it is worth....but seems that could have something to do with this.
The flood of ‘84 on the river was beyond control of the Corps. The original plan called for the low water dams to be constructed where they could be let down to open up the water flow. Of course we are of the dry seasons at present and are planning a death trap for many with the next wet cycle. The river drains a large area in the central part of the country and at present,I believe the capacity of the Keystone is not much over one and one half inches of rainfall over the drainage basin. In the event a tropical storm moves up the basin again, the river if developed as designed , will become Tulsa 911 as the water creates its own bypass. Much of the basin lies beyond .the city powers to create an ordinance prohibiting a rainfall that the Keystone can control. Check the past floods on the river so in the future you can plan to store the overflow as the town becomes the detention pond.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
The flood of ‘84 on the river was beyond control of the Corps. The original plan called for the low water dams to be constructed where they could be let down to open up the water flow. Of course we are of the dry seasons at present and are planning a death trap for many with the next wet cycle. The river drains a large area in the central part of the country and at present,I believe the capacity of the Keystone is not much over one and one half inches of rainfall over the drainage basin. In the event a tropical storm moves up the basin again, the river if developed as designed , will become Tulsa 911 as the water creates its own bypass. Much of the basin lies beyond .the city powers to create an ordinance prohibiting a rainfall that the Keystone can control. Check the past floods on the river so in the future you can plan to store the overflow as the town becomes the detention pond.
Yeah, so many tropical storms hit the Arkansas River watershed.
(http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/maps/p2_121_md.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
The flood of ‘84 on the river was beyond control of the Corps. The original plan called for the low water dams to be constructed where they could be let down to open up the water flow. Of course we are of the dry seasons at present and are planning a death trap for many with the next wet cycle. The river drains a large area in the central part of the country and at present,I believe the capacity of the Keystone is not much over one and one half inches of rainfall over the drainage basin. In the event a tropical storm moves up the basin again, the river if developed as designed , will become Tulsa 911 as the water creates its own bypass. Much of the basin lies beyond .the city powers to create an ordinance prohibiting a rainfall that the Keystone can control. Check the past floods on the river so in the future you can plan to store the overflow as the town becomes the detention pond.
Thanks for the doomsday forecast! The dams cannot open automatically but they do have gates that are manually opened. Not enough of them though. Good to see you back Shadows.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Yeah, so many tropical storms hit the Arkansas River watershed.
Well, a couple in my lifetime.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
The flood of ‘84 on the river was beyond control of the Corps. The original plan called for the low water dams to be constructed where they could be let down to open up the water flow. Of course we are of the dry seasons at present and are planning a death trap for many with the next wet cycle. The river drains a large area in the central part of the country and at present,I believe the capacity of the Keystone is not much over one and one half inches of rainfall over the drainage basin. In the event a tropical storm moves up the basin again, the river if developed as designed , will become Tulsa 911 as the water creates its own bypass. Much of the basin lies beyond .the city powers to create an ordinance prohibiting a rainfall that the Keystone can control. Check the past floods on the river so in the future you can plan to store the overflow as the town becomes the detention pond.
Yeah, so many tropical storms hit the Arkansas River watershed.
(http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/maps/p2_121_md.gif)
I think we know the watershed isn't coastal. But tropical systems can bring a lot of moisture this way, or in a worst case scenario, randomly stall in the region. Might not happen for 50 years, or it might happen next week.
I was in the offices of the weather bureau in ‘84 at which time their radar showed the mass storm was bearing down on the watershed just west of town. Its radar screens were covered with red and they were preparing to advise the Corps to open the gates to maximum channel capacity of which the Corps waited 24 hours before opening the gates and at this time the in flow as greater than they could control. The floodwaters washed the banks down stream from the dam.
True we have the dry cycles along with the wet cycles and we cannot predict the path a tropical storm will travel after landfall but nature carved the river and it has moved over the years.
I assume there are many venturous people that love to live in danger and in the present plan this will create a place for them. All buildings on the islands should require life jackets be available to every tenant.
Tulsa could annex a plot on the moon for future expansion when travel is available..
Oh get over it. First off any shoreline development will have the same problem. Are you saying no development along the river in Sand Springs, Tulsa, Jenks, Bixby, BA? Even if it did flood over ground level which will be built to the same height as the Riverwalk, aquarium, cityplex, etc. the people on the island will be aware of any possible flooding events and can walk upstairs or leave if they are on a ground floor.
I remember sandbags being put in front of the hotel there in front of the Wal-Mart during the 84 flood. I had a friend visiting me from out of town during that flood. You just waded through the danged lobby and went upstairs lol. People are able to walk up a flight of stairs. They aren't going to have single family homes on the island it will have mostly high rise and multi level condominium units. Not to mention it was all over the news that the river was going to be rising, they kept interrupting programs at night and in the morning to let people know when the water was coming and at what height to expect. The people caught off guard the most were the ones in other parts of the city where creeks and streets flash flooded.
Remember that flood was basically 2 floods. The rainfall that suddenly flooded large parts of the city not just the river but even in West Tulsa. Then there was the already over full river that was then flooded by the corps having to release even more water to prevent the dam from breaking. They would say the crest is going to hit Tulsa at such and such a time, Bixby at this time etc.
Now we have much better flood control in the rest of the city and new building codes for on or in the river that they didn't have then. The new development would have to be just as high as the riverwalk or any other development along the river and most people would live even above that. I find it highly unlikely that the people on the island wont be paying attention to the possibility of any flooding and I also find it highly unlikely that that part of the river is going to flash flood like the creeks did and catch them off guard.
I would be more worried about a lot of the new homes developed in Bixby and BA than on the island (take a look at that new Waterstone development for instance). Also remember most of the deaths were from people in cars and many were from flooded creek areas like Mingo Creek, and many of the homes and trailers that were in the absolute worst areas were removed.
As the men from FEMA the city brought in at the meeting said “Even the farmers know better than build in the creek bottom�.
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
As the men from FEMA the city brought in at the meeting said “Even the farmers know better than build in the creek bottom�.
Hey Shadow man... You finally made bail...?
Thought they may have done away with you.[}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
Not sure if it still the case....but back in early August a buddy of mine who is an underwater welder told me he was getting ready to do some work out at Keystone Dam.
Take it for what's it is worth....but seems that could have something to do with this.
That makes sense. Not as exciting as a conspiracy but more probable. thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
As the men from FEMA the city brought in at the meeting said “Even the farmers know better than build in the creek bottom�.
Hey Shadow man... You finally made bail...?
Thought they may have done away with you.[}:)]
i thought he was dead for sure...
shadows- glad to see your still kickin'...
quote:
Originally posted by brunoflipper
quote:
Originally posted by Rico
quote:
Originally posted by shadows
As the men from FEMA the city brought in at the meeting said “Even the farmers know better than build in the creek bottom�.
Hey Shadow man... You finally made bail...?
Thought they may have done away with you.[}:)]
i thought he was dead for sure...
shadows- glad to see your still kickin'...
Naw! there is a time to speak and a time to listen. I have been listening.
FROM THE CORPS WEBSITE:
Corps in drought management mode
October 23, 2006 41
Synopsis: Some lakes reach record lows. Elk City Lake in Kansas is in Drought Level 2.
TULSA, Okla. - As drought in this region continues, water levels in Corps of Engineers reservoirs are watched closely. Five reservoirs that Tulsa District manages for flood control reached record low pool elevations this month. They are Skiatook and Thunderbird in the Arkansas River Basin and Tom Steed, Pat Mayse, and Waurika in the Red River Basin.
Several reservoirs are below 70 percent of their conservation pool: Elk City, Canton, Heyburn, Pat Mayse, Fort Supply, Keystone, and Skiatook.
The Tulsa District operates under a Drought Management and Reporting Plan that requires specific actions at various stages as reservoirs drop. Drought Level I is the level at which most lakes are operating. It is considered the normal level in drought conditions.
During Drought Level 1, the Corps monitors storage, withdrawals, and low flow releases; manipulates outlet works to minimize leakage; and begins water storage accounting.
Elk City Lake in Kansas, at 45 percent of its conversation pool and 7 feet below normal, is now in Level 2.
At Drought Level 2, in addition to the above measures, the Corps Drought Management Committee is activated and Southwestern Power is requested to limit generation as much as possible. Pool elevations are projected and water resources boards are notified when 50 percent of the conservation storage remains. Contracted water users are notified when they have exceeded 50 percent of their storage allocation. News releases are issued to keep the public informed.
No matter the drought stage, the Corps website www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil. always provides current water level information Special lake information notices are also posted on the district's homepage at http://www.swt.usace.army.mil
--30----------------------
If you look at the text of the Lake Information Recording for this morning you'll see that there are no releases of water scheduled today for not only Keystone but also Ft. Gibson, Grand, Hudson, Kaw, and Oolagah. The conservation pool level at Keystone is currently reported at only 68.83% full and is about 4.25 feet below normal. The river flow above Keystone at the gage at Ralston is currently around 180cfs. This is a miniscule amount. All of this information can be found at http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/
It looks like the long and short of it is that there just isn't any water to fill up the riverbed with right now, and I'm sure the Corps is more concerned with the effects of low flows and low water at the Lake itself (like impacts on water supply, boating, fishing, marina docks, etc.) than they are about the aesthetics of the riverbed near Tulsa.
There goes the "grassy knoll" theory. What a spoil-sport.
Thanks, BixBy. Seems like when the Corps sent out a press release detailing why the drought conditions warrant drying up the river, our local rag might have considered that worthy of reporting to the public. Seeing as the river snakes through the city for 20 miles or so and we are being asked to spend money on developing it. But no, we got a story on how OU president Boren got lots of e-mails because of his complaints to the NCAA. Guess you have to set your priorities eh?
I notice Oologah is getting lower. I'm curious what all this could do to the Kerr-McClellan navigation channel. Have we had this sort of drought conditions since they started navigating up to Catoosa?
Thanks BixB. I finally got one right lol.[:D]
Artist quoted:
I remember sandbags being put in front of the hotel there in front of the Wal-Mart during the 84 flood. I had a friend visiting me from out of town during that flood. You just waded through the danged lobby and went upstairs lol.
---------------------------------------------
I filled sand bags on riverside drive in floods before the 84 flood to protect Brookside but your point is well taken. If we use the plan to restrict the river bed then SWM in the next flood can set signs in the middle of the road restricting traffic to boats only and patrons to the area wearing hip boots. Hindsight is so much clearer than foresight.
We can dam the river and pass an ordinance prohibiting the corps from releasing water that will flood the new developments. There is a simple solution for every problem. Let get going on creating another problem in a dying city