I am glad that some citizens have begun making an effort to reach out to the Hispanic community:
http://www.kotv.com/news/?111778
I'm not sure how long San Miguel's has been around, but it is certainly a step up from Rhema's "Occasional lip service to Hispanics day." No offense to anyone. [:D]
That's great and all....but how about we find out if the parents of this kids are legal?
quote:
Originally posted by wavoka
That's great and all....but how about we find out if the parents of this kids are legal?
Do you have your papers?
It doesn't matter if their parents are legal. Most of these kids were born here, making them legal. Why can't we support the Catholic Church's efforts to offer these kids and their parents a quality educational experience so they can grow up to be productive American citizens. Geez. Is that all anyone cares about is their legal status?
quote:
Is that all anyone cares about is their legal status?
Not so much in this case, but if the government is going to be spending the money, then yes.
Well, it would seem this is a church-sponsored school and since churches aren't supposed to receive government money...then they aren't spending tax money.
Just because a child's parents are illegal, that child was more than likely born here, making them just as eligible as any one of us for certain basic rights such as education.
This school should be eligible for government money just like every other school is. Just because it caters to Hispanics doesn't not mean anything. Not all Hispanics (kids and parents) came across the border. It's sad that people have that mentality.
There are plenty of white schools that cater to whites. They just don't advertise it. But yet I don't see anyone throwing a fuss about them receiving government money.
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
This school should be eligible for government money just like every other school is. Just because it caters to Hispanics doesn't not mean anything. Not all Hispanics (kids and parents) came across the border. It's sad that people have that mentality.
There are plenty of white schools that cater to whites. They just don't advertise it. But yet I don't see anyone throwing a fuss about them receiving government money.
they don't because they cant and therein lies the double standard. This is Church sponsored discrimination. At least the Chinese school here in town doesnt discriminate. If you want to learn Chinese you can go and learn Chinese, whether you are white or hispanic or whatever. This further goes towards the failure of our society, because you have organizations actively supporting the NON integration of a culture into american society.
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
You are speaking about a place with a 99 cent menu. Have you ever heard the saying 'you get what you pay for' [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
Why, have you been harmed? In what way were you offended?
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
I wish all Tulsans could be required to learn to speak a second language... fluently.
Scratch that, I'd be happy if all Okies could just be taught to speak English... fluently.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
Why, have you been harmed? In what way were you offended?
If by "harm" you mean having to try to explain why or how an order is wrong to someone who doesn't (or pretends not to) know how to speak English, then yes, I have been harmed. Is it too much to ask to ask that people who are employed in service positions be able to fulfill their job function while speaking English? Call me crazy, but they don't provide much service if they can't communicate in the common language.
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
quote:
Is that all anyone cares about is their legal status?
Not so much in this case, but if the government is going to be spending the money, then yes.
Say
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/rico2/Cubs.gif)
if you care about the legal status of someone when your Government spends money... Lets talks about the laws of mankind and the Geneva Convention for a while... [}:)]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Somewhere this is being forgotten.........
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
Why, have you been harmed? In what way were you offended?
If by "harm" you mean having to try to explain why or how an order is wrong to someone who doesn't (or pretends not to) know how to speak English, then yes, I have been harmed. Is it too much to ask to ask that people who are employed in service positions be able to fulfill their job function while speaking English? Call me crazy, but they don't provide much service if they can't communicate in the common language.
Guess none of you travel much to Florida, especially Miami. The common language is Spanish lol. I was just glad they had pictures and numbers at the fast food restaurants.
El numero tres, una grande fritadas. [:P]
Guess Markk hasn't been to New Mexico, either. It's officially a bilingual state, where Spanish-speaking people have lived there 150 years longer than English-speaking ones.
Or maybe Markk hasn't been to the Navajo Nation in Arizona, where they speak (you guessed it) Navajo and have for generations. They even have a radio station in which the language is used exclusively.
Or Louisiana, where large numbers of people speak Creole or French and have for generations also.
But no. Markk wants everyone to speak in a language that's one of the newest languages on the continent.
[}:)]
No offense, but Hispanics serve a LARGE number of Tulsa... assumed at least 50,000+... so whether or not you hate answering to an individual whose English is not 100% "with it," you going to have to get over it.
Also, I hate to call out Cubs... but as a Christian you have a responsibility to care for the weak and the downtrodden. Just because government money MIGHT be paying out to such people as Hispanics in need means that you should despise them, and unfortunately it's sad that you think in such a manner.
On a side note, I personally think that this school is a huge advancement for Tulsa. It may only reach out to 70 children right now, but at least the Catholic Church is steering in the right direction... if no one else is.
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
Will they be taught to speak English?? I'm tired to going to McDonalds or other service oriented businesses that are staffed with people who speak little or no English.
Why, have you been harmed? In what way were you offended?
If by "harm" you mean having to try to explain why or how an order is wrong to someone who doesn't (or pretends not to) know how to speak English, then yes, I have been harmed. Is it too much to ask to ask that people who are employed in service positions be able to fulfill their job function while speaking English? Call me crazy, but they don't provide much service if they can't communicate in the common language.
I have never went to any MCD's or any other fast food establishment and had someone that could not speak english. They may have a very strong accent but they still spoke english. Sometimes better then some of the okies around here.
^ When you said that it reminded me of the time I was on a job site and there was this guy, don't know if you would call him an okie or what, but I couldn't understand him for the life of me. You know the type, the ones that sound just like that one guy on King of the Hill, but worse lol. I felt so embarrassed, he kept trying to tell me something, repeated it several times and finally one of his buddies had to translate for me.
Good Ole Boomhauer! There's a lot of them around here. If the government made English the official language of Oklahoma, a lot of people would not be in compliance with the law, not just the Hispanics.
quote:
Not so much in this case, but if the government is going to be spending the money, then yes.
If your goverment is welling to drop bombs on a nation for no reason then I say we can provide everyone with some decent education...
[:)]
Why was this done? Don't the Hispanic children go to the public schools?[?]
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
If by "harm" you mean having to try to explain why or how an order is wrong to someone who doesn't (or pretends not to) know how to speak English, then yes, I have been harmed. Is it too much to ask to ask that people who are employed in service positions be able to fulfill their job function while speaking English? Call me crazy, but they don't provide much service if they can't communicate in the common language.
Oh, geez. You have NOT been harmed. You are NOT a victim. Please don't play like it.
When I get a bite to eat at a fast food joint in Tulsa, I understand that I could have an awkward high schooler take my order. Or I could get some older redneck-type who's recovering from meth-addiction. Or I could get a hispanic who's either older and is TRYING to speak english with some difficulty, or a younger hispanic who has an accent-- probably due to the fact that the native language spoken at home by his/her parents is spanish.
In the conservative tradition of arguing to "ship people back to their country of origin" I'd like to offer this:
Take the Tulsans who claim to be victimized by people who "don't speak english" and SHIP THEM OFF TO BOSTON, or better yet, New Bedford, Massachusetts to work at a McDonald's or Burger King there... I'd bet folks in Massachusetts would find it easier to understand the thick accents of ethnics from El Salvador, Mexico, Columbia, Brasil/Portugal over the "english-only" accent spoken by most Tulsans...
Back to topic; good, bilingual focused education has its advantages. Those kids who are taught in a bilingual setting will speak/understand english BETTER than if they were stuck in an english-only classroom... not for reasons relating to a "liberal social agenda"... but for really practical reasons, it's a good idea to effectively educate our busboys and housekeepers and/or their children so some of them can one day become good, job creating, tax-paying citizens...
---end of rant---
Two comments on this:
It's great it is privately-funded and from the sounds of it, the children are being taught English.
I'm not a xenophobe, but it seems like many have forgotten that Italian, Russian, Polish, Slavik, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese (et. al.- ad nauseum) immigrants who migrated via legal channels in the 1800's and 1900's were expected to learn our language and assimilate into our society. To my knowledge, there were not any Russian/English, Itallian/English schools. Why should it be any different today? To help preserve their own culture and stay amongst their own contrymen, they lived in ghettos where they spoke their own language amongst themselves and observed their own traditions. When they ventured out of their ethnic ghettos, they respectfully observed the prevailing language and customs.
The great "melting pot" that America has become has to do with many cultures and traditions coming together in one place. However, the increasingly prevalent latino culture is starting to impose itself on all the other cultures.
Up until the last 20 years, English has always been the accepted common language of the land. We didn't have bi-lingual signs when I was a kid on school campuses, I didn't have to use broken Spanish to get my message across to another person, unless I was in a Spanish-speaking country. I think it's wrong for a culture dominated by people who haven't gone through the same legal channels as other immigrants to impose their language and culture on the rest of us.
In the 1800s and 1900s, most children in the U.S. didn't even receive a high school education.
...And what WAS the predominant and accepted language of our government back then?
I would have to say a majority of people were considered illiterate. They could speak the languate but not read or write it.
quote:
Originally posted by NellieBly
I would have to say a majority of people were considered illiterate. They could speak the languate but not read or write it.
And of course we would be talking about time when blacks were not able to get an education and women were just as much property as the slaves were. They just didnt have to work in the fields.
Now what was the topic again? lol!
See -- there I go being all illiterate. That would be language, of course.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS - 1895
The eighth-grade final exam from 1895 from Salina, KS. It was taken from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, KS and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
Grammar
(Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7. - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic
(Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. per bu., deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per m?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
U.S. History
(Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?
Orthography
(Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography
(Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
Poor white children had to work in the fields, too, alongside their parents. Even wealthy children received low-level home schooling if they lived in smaller cities.
Thank God everyone can receive a free, albeit somewhat mediocre at times, education.
Give that test to a class of high school students and see how they do.
Hell. Give it to college students. Education has always been valued in this country and those who could neither read nor write were the exception to the rule.
IP-
Interesting, throw them a softball with math and history, then kick the s#it out of them with orthography. Pretty obvious the influence of the agrarian economy.
I did notice that the WHOLE test was in English! [;)]
Okay, now that we've completely drifted off topic, can someone please give a rational explaination why it is we no longer care if people immigrate legally, learn and speak our official language, and assimilate into our culture?
Because whichever party provides them the path of least resistance gets their VOTES!
Anyways, this thread was about helping kids assimilate through education regardless of what their parents do or believe.
My wife is a teacher and has hispanic students who struggle because they WANT to learn the language, but when they go home SPANISH is spoken, either because the parents never learned or they refuse to allow english to be spoken in the home. In 5 years of teaching she has only encountered a handfull of students in the latter category, but it's still disturbing and sad for the kids.
I didn't know English was the official language of the U.S. No such recognition exists.
If we go with America's native language, it'd be Cherokee.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Two comments on this:
It's great it is privately-funded and from the sounds of it, the children are being taught English.
I'm not a xenophobe, but it seems like many have forgotten that Italian, Russian, Polish, Slavik, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese (et. al.- ad nauseum) immigrants who migrated via legal channels in the 1800's and 1900's were expected to learn our language and assimilate into our society. To my knowledge, there were not any Russian/English, Itallian/English schools.
Wrong. There were bilingual schools. Just not in Tulsa... Tulsa was an oil boomtown, not an ethnic enclave... check out Tontitown... http://www.tontitown.com/story.html ... you can't tell me that those first and second generation people would have been better served in an english-only public school setting. And I bet that for decades there were signs in both English and Italian...
I've always felt one of Tulsa's biggest weaknesses was that it's never really been an "ethnic" city (unless you count
redneck as an ethnicity). It would be nice to have a few of those ethnic enclaves in Tulsa... whether Mexican, Vietnamese, or... ???
quote:
Why should it be any different today? To help preserve their own culture and stay amongst their own contrymen, they lived in ghettos where they spoke their own language amongst themselves and observed their own traditions. When they ventured out of their ethnic ghettos, they respectfully observed the prevailing language and customs.
That is gross oversimplification. Watch the movie "Gangs of New York" sometime... or observe an Irish Parade in any larger American city... too many people forget the ugly details of "Irish Need Not Apply"... Poles in Chicago... Hungarians in Cleveland... Latinos are everywhere (not just one country/culture but including Salvadoran, Guatemalan, Honduran, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Columbian, Venuzuelan, et al as well as those pesky Meskins)... just like the Irish were everywhere-- but the Irish didn't have to learn English as a second language.
quote:
The great "melting pot" that America has become has to do with many cultures and traditions coming together in one place. However, the increasingly prevalent latino culture is starting to impose itself on all the other cultures.
Up until the last 20 years, English has always been the accepted common language of the land. We didn't have bi-lingual signs when I was a kid on school campuses, I didn't have to use broken Spanish to get my message across to another person, unless I was in a Spanish-speaking country. I think it's wrong for a culture dominated by people who haven't gone through the same legal channels as other immigrants to impose their language and culture on the rest of us.
Okay, now THAT'S xenophobic-- especially the parts in boldface. And also wrong. There were spanish speaking radio stations well before the "last 20 years." We as Americans seem to have absolutely NO PROBLEMO going to Mexico and EXPECTING to find English speakers there. Or going to Europe and complaining that not enough people speak english. Yet few Americans speak more than one language FLUENTLY. Those people who are looking for opportunity doing low paying menial work in the USA are not part of some conspiracy to "impose their language and culture on the rest of us." If that means some Tulsans end up having to learn a tiny bit of spanish that doesn't involve tex-mex menu items from El Chico, so be it.
Too bad Tulsa and Oklahoma in general is too stuck in some romanticized english-only stone age to understand what other public school districts are doing:
http://www.cps.k12.il.us/AboutCPS/PressReleases/March_2006/bilingual.htm
quote:
"More than 56,000 Chicago public school students are English language learners, " said CPS Chief Executive Officer Arne Duncan. "We are committed to providing them with the best possible teachers today and in the years ahead. "
CPS has partnered with Northern Illinois University and the Illinois State Board of Education (ISBE) to offer a complete teacher certification program for transitioning professionals. It provides financial support for participants to complete an Illinois Elementary or Early Childhood Teacher Certificate with bilingual and English as a Second Language options.
CPS currently offers instruction in Spanish, Polish, Chinese and a variety of other languages. At this time, about 85 percent of CPS students in bilingual and dual-language programs are Spanish-speakers.
As immigrant communities expand, the need for bilingual teachers in Illinois is expected to increase. An estimated 1,660 new bilingual teachers will be needed in Illinois by 2008.
Both bilingual teacher certification programs are accepting applications immediately and candidates will begin coursework in June, 2006. All applicants must possess a bachelor 's degree, be fluent in English and one of the targeted languages: Spanish, Arabic, Cantonese, Greek, Gujarati, Hindi, Japanese, Korean, Lao, Mandarin, Polish, Russian, Urdu, Vietnamese.
quote:
Wrong. There were bilingual schools. Just not in Tulsa... Tulsa was an oil boomtown, not an ethnic enclave... check out Tontitown... http://www.tontitown.com/story.html ... you can't tell me that those first and second generation people would have been better served in an english-only public school setting. And I bet that for decades there were signs in both English and Italian...
I've always felt one of Tulsa's biggest weaknesses was that it's never really been an "ethnic" city (unless you count redneck as an ethnicity). It would be nice to have a few of those ethnic enclaves in Tulsa... whether Mexican, Vietnamese, or... ???
Interesting point, as long as you are working towards ASSIMILATION in language. I have no problem teaching those who wish to assimilate, but if that is the case the ultimate end-game IS ENGLISH-ONLY...
In the end the Italian, French, Vietnamese, etc. all ended up speaking English after immigrating. I don't remember reading where any of these groups asked for bilingual signage or ballots but I could be wrong. Anyways, I hope that linguistic assimilation is the goal of the hispanic community.
This should assuage your fears.
Because of renewed immigration, fears about the status of English as the linguistic glue holding America together are common today. In a very different vein, multiculturalists have expressed hopes of profound change to American culture brought on by the persistence across generations of the mother tongues of contemporary immigrants. In either case, the underlying claim is that the past pattern of rapid acceptance of English by the children and grandchildren of the immigrants may be breaking down.
Using 2000 Census data, the Mumford Center has undertaken an analysis of the languages spoken at home by school-age children in newcomer families in order to examine the validity of the claim. We find that, although some changes have occurred, it greatly exaggerates them. English is almost universally accepted by the children and grandchildren of the immigrants who have come to the U.S. in great numbers since the 1960s. Moreover, by the third generation, i.e., the grandchildren of immigrants, bilingualism is maintained only by minorities of almost all groups. Among Asian groups, these minorities are so small that the levels of linguistic assimilation are scarcely different from those of the past. Among the Spanish-speaking groups, the bilingual minorities are larger than was the case among most European immigrant groups. Nevertheless, English monolingualism is the predominant pattern by the third generation, except for Dominicans, a group known to maintain levels of back-and-forth travel to its homeland.
Some of our specific findings are:
?œ Bilingualism is common among second-generation children, i.e., those growing up in immigrant households: most speak an immigrant language at home, but almost all are proficient in English. Among Hispanics, 92 percent speak English well or very well, even though 85 percent speak at least some Spanish at home. The equivalent percentages among Asian groups are: 96 percent are proficient in English and 61 percent speak an Asian mother tongue.
?œ In the third (and later) generation, the predominant pattern is English monolingualism: that is, children speak only English at home, making it highly unlikely that they will be bilingual as adults. Among Asians, the percentage who speak only English is 92 percent. It is lower among Hispanics, but still a clear majority: 72 percent.
?œ The very high immigration level of the 1990s does not appear to have weakened the forces of linguistic assimilation. Mexicans, by far the largest immigrant group, provide a compelling example. In 1990, 64 percent of third-generation Mexican-American children spoke only English at home; in 2000, the equivalent figure had risen to 71 percent.
?œ Much third-generation bilingualism is found in border communities, such as Brownsville, Texas, where the maintenance of Spanish has deep historical roots and is affected by proximity to Mexico. Away from the border, Mexican-American children of the third generation are unlikely to be bilingual.
Good material, and I hope it's the case now. As long as assimilation is the goal I have NO problem providing whatever tools are necessary to accomplish that goal.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Two comments on this:
It's great it is privately-funded and from the sounds of it, the children are being taught English.
I'm not a xenophobe, but it seems like many have forgotten that Italian, Russian, Polish, Slavik, Spanish, Japanese, Chinese (et. al.- ad nauseum) immigrants who migrated via legal channels in the 1800's and 1900's were expected to learn our language and assimilate into our society. To my knowledge, there were not any Russian/English, Itallian/English schools.
Wrong. There were bilingual schools. Just not in Tulsa... Tulsa was an oil boomtown, not an ethnic enclave... check out Tontitown... http://www.tontitown.com/story.html ... you can't tell me that those first and second generation people would have been better served in an english-only public school setting. And I bet that for decades there were signs in both English and Italian...
I've always felt one of Tulsa's biggest weaknesses was that it's never really been an "ethnic" city (unless you count redneck as an ethnicity). It would be nice to have a few of those ethnic enclaves in Tulsa... whether Mexican, Vietnamese, or... ???
quote:
Why should it be any different today? To help preserve their own culture and stay amongst their own contrymen, they lived in ghettos where they spoke their own language amongst themselves and observed their own traditions. When they ventured out of their ethnic ghettos, they respectfully observed the prevailing language and customs.
That is gross oversimplification. Watch the movie "Gangs of New York" sometime... or observe an Irish Parade in any larger American city... too many people forget the ugly details of "Irish Need Not Apply"... Poles in Chicago... Hungarians in Cleveland... Latinos are everywhere (which include Salvadoran, Guatemalan, Cuban, Columbian, Venuzuelan, et al as well as those pesky Meskins)... just like the Irish were everywhere-- but the Irish didn't have to learn English as a second language.
quote:
The great "melting pot" that America has become has to do with many cultures and traditions coming together in one place. However, the increasingly prevalent latino culture is starting to impose itself on all the other cultures.
Up until the last 20 years, English has always been the accepted common language of the land. We didn't have bi-lingual signs when I was a kid on school campuses, I didn't have to use broken Spanish to get my message across to another person, unless I was in a Spanish-speaking country. I think it's wrong for a culture dominated by people who haven't gone through the same legal channels as other immigrants to impose their language and culture on the rest of us.
Okay, now THAT'S xenophobic-- especially the parts in boldface. And also wrong. There were spanish speaking radio stations well before the "last 20 years." We as Americans seem to have absolutely NO PROBLEMO going to Mexico and EXPECTING to find English speakers there. Or going to Europe and complaining that not enough people speak english. Yet few Americans speak more than one language FLUENTLY. Those people who are looking for opportunity doing low paying menial work in the USA are not part of some conspiracy to "impose their language and culture on the rest of us." If that means some Tulsans end up having to learn a tiny bit of spanish that doesn't involve tex-mex menu items from El Chico, so be it.
Too bad Tulsa and Oklahoma in general is too stuck in some romanticized english-only stone age to understand what other public school districts are doing:
http://www.cps.k12.il.us/AboutCPS/PressReleases/March_2006/bilingual.htm
quote:
"More than 56,000 Chicago public school students are English language learners, " said CPS Chief Executive Officer Arne Duncan. "We are committed to providing them with the best possible teachers today and in the years ahead. "
CPS has partnered with Northern Illinois University and the Illinois State Board of Education (ISBE) to offer a complete teacher certification program for transitioning professionals. It provides financial support for participants to complete an Illinois Elementary or Early Childhood Teacher Certificate with bilingual and English as a Second Language options.
CPS currently offers instruction in Spanish, Polish, Chinese and a variety of other languages. At this time, about 85 percent of CPS students in bilingual and dual-language programs are Spanish-speakers.
As immigrant communities expand, the need for bilingual teachers in Illinois is expected to increase. An estimated 1,660 new bilingual teachers will be needed in Illinois by 2008.
Both bilingual teacher certification programs are accepting applications immediately and candidates will begin coursework in June, 2006. All applicants must possess a bachelor 's degree, be fluent in English and one of the targeted languages: Spanish, Arabic, Cantonese, Greek, Gujarati, Hindi, Japanese, Korean, Lao, Mandarin, Polish, Russian, Urdu, Vietnamese.
I didn't read anywhere in your link that Tontitown had an Itallian schoolhouse. I'll bet ya a basket of Tontitown grapes, that the Itallian settlers spoke English when they spoke to their bosses at the Oklahoma mines or went over to Springdale or Siloam Springs to trade. Tontitown was a lot like Krebs, basically another ghetto out on the range. Around the ghetto, you observe your own culture and language. Leave that enclave and you use the prevailing language.
There's nothing xenophobic about my post. I'm fine with immigrants coming here so long as they respect our laws, language, and culture.
Gangs of New York is a "dramatized" account of our history, not a factual document.
I think you would be hard-pressed to find another country that would be accepting of a bunch of American immigrants who refused to learn the local language and assimilate into their culture. They would consider it arrogant and insulting.
Granted, there is a need for bi-lingual teachers to be able to translate a native tongue into English.
Since the founders of our country spoke English, the Declaration of Independence, and our Constitution were all written in English that has pretty much made English the de-facto "official" language of America over the last 250-300 years.
Unless you don't live in Tulsa, it would be hard to miss the large Hispanic communities around Admiral & Lewis and out east off 21st St.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I didn't know English was the official language of the U.S. No such recognition exists.
If we go with America's native language, it'd be Cherokee.
I think there are some Creeks, Navajo's, Shoshone's, Sioux, etc. who might argue that point with you rwarn. [;)]
I think assimilation is a red herring, mainly because studies have shown that by the third generation of an immigrant family being in the United States, they speak English fluently and it's their preferred language.
And to target Hispanics for not assimilating is to conveniently ignore our country's immigrant history. In central Illinois, in a tiny little burg close to where I grew up, there were German immigrant families who could not / would not speak a word of English. Do you think there were folks in Chinatown in San Francisco or Chicago who didn't speak English? Of course.
Of course, their children and grandchildren did.
The same will happen here.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I didn't know English was the official language of the U.S. No such recognition exists.
If we go with America's native language, it'd be Cherokee.
I think there are some Creeks, Navajo's, Shoshone's, Sioux, etc. who might argue that point with you rwarn. [;)]
You can add the Chickasaw and Choctaw to that list.
Always interesting to me about cultures. If we go to Little Italy in any city, and a few old-timers are speaking Italian to each other, or the Italian mama is singing in Italian while stirring the gravy, it brings a smile to our face. Charming. [^]
Same with Greektown -- we just had our Greek Holiday festival in Tulsa this past weekend. Lots of dancing and wonderful food and more than a few thick accents.
Oktoberfest, anyone?
I can take you to towns back East where there are still old-timers speaking Russian, Polish, German, Greek, Italian, French, and Portugese at family gatherings.
But some kid working at McDonald's for minimum wage has a Spanish accent? Well, BY GAWD GIT THEM FERNERS OUTTA HERE!! [:(!]
Nothing has changed in over 100 years of immigration. The first generation to come over has a hard time with the language and holds on to a lot of the culture from back home. The second generation assimilates with a few bumps in the road. The third generation is as American as a Chevy with a trunkful of apple pie.
EDIT: Dangit, rwarn... you beat me to it. [|)]
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
I think assimilation is a red herring, mainly because studies have shown that by the third generation of an immigrant family being in the United States, they speak English fluently and it's their preferred language.
And to target Hispanics for not assimilating is to conveniently ignore our country's immigrant history. In central Illinois, in a tiny little burg close to where I grew up, there were German immigrant families who could not / would not speak a word of English. Do you think there were folks in Chinatown in San Francisco or Chicago who didn't speak English? Of course.
Of course, their children and grandchildren did.
The same will happen here.
Funny, how come (at least) one-half of everything I read is not in German or Italian, but in Spanish? We ARE bending to the needs of this group of immigrants (the Latinos), and not the other way around.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Interesting point, as long as you are working towards ASSIMILATION in language. I have no problem teaching those who wish to assimilate, but if that is the case the ultimate end-game IS ENGLISH-ONLY...
In the end the Italian, French, Vietnamese, etc. all ended up speaking English after immigrating. I don't remember reading where any of these groups asked for bilingual signage or ballots but I could be wrong. Anyways, I hope that linguistic assimilation is the goal of the hispanic community.
I'd replace the word "assimilate" with "absorb" because our immigrants have influenced the language/slang/syntax of this country for generations, if not centuries... to use your terminology, I think the "ultimate end game" is
American-only, not english-only. I think our country in WWII was lucky to have GI's who could speak the language of the locals-- Italian, German, etc... too bad we don't have enough GI's who speak arabic to "win the war for hearts and minds" in Iraq these days.
Hmmm... it's been more than 2 posts since I've mentioned soccer...[:D]
When I've gone to Chicago Fire soccer games, I hear announcements in English/Spanish/Polish... somehow I'm not bothered by that. If they're paying for tickets and keeping my favorite American soccer league in business, I'm happy. Ah, the language of single-game ticket sales and concesions...
As for "In the end the Italian, French, Vietnamese, etc. all ended up speaking English after immigrating," this is once again an oversimplification of what's going on. First generation adults are just never going to assimilate the way their second and third generation kids will. That's just a simple fact. It's hard to learn a to speak a language fluently when you're an adult. I figure the second generation will be ashamed the first generation didn't speak better english. And the third generation will be ashamed their parents abandoned their ethnicity to become a REAL American... just a social theory... not a political position...
Oh, bilingual signage and ballots...
http://www.chicagoelections.com/English2004.htm
quote:
The Chicago Election Board has numerous programs to provide language assistance to voters who primarily speak a foreign language. By federal law, all ballots and voter instruction must be printed in Spanish and Chinese, in addition to English.
In precincts with large numbers of Hispanic or Chinese voters, the Board attempts to place bilingual judges of election to provide verbal assistance. If a bilingual judge is not available in a precinct, the voter or judges of election can call Election Central at 312-269-7870, where Board personnel versed in several languages – including Spanish, Chinese, Polish, Russian, Greek, German, Korean, and Serbian – are available to answer questions and provide assistance.
In addition, every precinct polling place is provided with a Board publication entitled, "We Speak Your Language." This booklet provides voter instruction in 15 languages, covering such topics as Qualifications for Voting; Locating a Polling Place; Applying for a Ballot; Voter Assistance; and How to Vote and Screen a Ballot.
Various voter outreach programs are conducted in ethnic communities to encourage registration and provide language assistance.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Okay, now that we've completely drifted off topic, can someone please give a rational explaination why it is we no longer care if people immigrate legally, learn and speak our official language, and assimilate into our culture?
I find it very frustrating that people continue to assert the "my family came here legally, why can't yours?" argument. Unless your family came here after the 1920s, or you are Chinese,
there were no laws that would prevent you from entering the US. In other words, everyone (again, except for the Chinese) was welcomed and legal. No quotas. No questions about where you came from. No nothing, just come on over, and become a citizen (though we may have to send you to war first thing). Even after the 1920s, most restrictions for immigration only applied to Eastern Europeans.
Now the doors have been shut, or at least greatly tightened. Maybe that's a good thing. But to argue your ancestors came to the US legally is a fallacious argument.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I didn't read anywhere in your link that Tontitown had an Itallian schoolhouse. I'll bet ya a basket of Tontitown grapes, that the Itallian settlers spoke English when they spoke to their bosses at the Oklahoma mines or went over to Springdale or Siloam Springs to trade. Tontitown was a lot like Krebs, basically another ghetto out on the range. Around the ghetto, you observe your own culture and language. Leave that enclave and you use the prevailing language.
First of all, get back to me when you can spell
Italian. Second, you confuse an
Italian schoolhouse with my contention, that out of necessity, those kids had to learn how to talk to their parents in italian and also learn english... that's bilingual education, plain and simple, no matter how politically incorrect that concept is to the large number of ditto-head conservatives out there...
Once again, would these people's kids have been better served in a public school in which NOBODY spoke Italian??? And we live in a modern world in which reading/writing are now MORE important than ever before... "bosses" and "ghettos"??? I'm sorry, is this what you WANT for Tulsa?
quote:
There's nothing xenophobic about my post. I'm fine with immigrants coming here so long as they respect our laws, language, and culture.
What do you mean by respecting the language and culture? Should they speak english at all times? Do they have your permision to listen to spanish-speaking radio stations or watch Univision or Telemundo? Or should that be illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia
quote:
Gangs of New York is a "dramatized" account of our history, not a factual document.
That film's historical context is MUCH closer to fact than your contention that other ethnic groups (including the Irish) just "assimilated" out of thin air... yeah, they just held hands and magically started singing "Yankee Doodle"?!?
quote:
I think you would be hard-pressed to find another country that would be accepting of a bunch of American immigrants who refused to learn the local language and assimilate into their culture. They would consider it arrogant and insulting.
How much do you know about "other countries"??? Are you fluent in a language other than english? How hard was it to learn? Did you have to constantly practice the language? Did you feel like an idiot when you found out that though you thought you were fluent you still had no experiences with any slang, buzzwords, inside jokes, etc...?
quote:
Unless you don't live in Tulsa, it would be hard to miss the large Hispanic communities around Admiral & Lewis and out east off 21st St.
I don't currently live in Tulsa, but I've seen the growing number of hispanics around Executive Mall when I've visited... Tulsa's not very different from where I currently live... lotsa hispanics here in northern Illinois... maybe all you see is the neighborhood going to the dogs... maybe all you see is a buncha "illegals" who, in your english-only opinion, refuse to speak the language...
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Okay, now that we've completely drifted off topic, can someone please give a rational explaination why it is we no longer care if people immigrate legally, learn and speak our official language, and assimilate into our culture?
I find it very frustrating that people continue to assert the "my family came here legally, why can't yours?" argument. Unless your family came here after the 1920s, or you are Chinese, there were no laws that would prevent you from entering the US. In other words, everyone (again, except for the Chinese) was welcomed and legal. No quotas. No questions about where you came from. No nothing, just come on over, and become a citizen (though we may have to send you to war first thing). Even after the 1920s, most restrictions for immigration only applied to Eastern Europeans.
Now the doors have been shut, or at least greatly tightened. Maybe that's a good thing. But to argue your ancestors came to the US legally is a fallacious argument.
I think you misinterpreted my point, or maybe I just left it wide open. The method of immigration back in the era you are speaking of was to come through a recognized port of entry, be documented, and proceed to observe our laws, find work, and contribute to our society. People didn't sneak in under a fence or in the back of a semi truck as the preferred method of immigration back then. If you needed charity, you went to the church or your ethnic community for hand-outs not the government.
I think many of you would be surprised at how much of a problem our generosity and lack of border security is. I'm going to make two observations from the ground level:
We have had a sign out in front of our shop for a couple of weeks seeking help. Monday, a Mexican National came in and applied. Problem was, his last name didn't match on his social security card with his immigration documents and he didn't have a driver's license.
He re-appeared yesterday with a driver's license and a "corrected" social security card.
I'm trying to figure out how it took at least a couple of weeks for my wife to get her new social security card last year when we got married after having being on the rolls for 42 years, yet this guy can produce one in a matter of days?????
Second experience- we had a Mexican National who worked for us who had a seizure on the way to work, crossed the centerline of I-44, and he hit another car. He had refused our company health insurance coverage, didn't have liability insurance. He took an ambulance to the hospital, overnight stay, etc.
A few months later, he was sued by the insurance company of the car he hit and collection firms for the hospital and EMSA. Instead of having his wages garnisheed, he fled. He will pop up again somewhere else.
IOW- not all, but there are a good number of these people who don't observe the same laws and are only here to take something- not give back. Had happened to you been in the other vehicle in the wreck I spoke of, you might view immigration a little different.
And what exactly, does any of that have to do with teaching both spanish and english in schools, the original subject of this thread? [:(!]
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
I didn't read anywhere in your link that Tontitown had an Itallian schoolhouse. I'll bet ya a basket of Tontitown grapes, that the Itallian settlers spoke English when they spoke to their bosses at the Oklahoma mines or went over to Springdale or Siloam Springs to trade. Tontitown was a lot like Krebs, basically another ghetto out on the range. Around the ghetto, you observe your own culture and language. Leave that enclave and you use the prevailing language.
First of all, get back to me when you can spell Italian. Second, you confuse an Italian schoolhouse with my contention, that out of necessity, those kids had to learn how to talk to their parents in italian and also learn english... that's bilingual education, plain and simple, no matter how politically incorrect that concept is to the large number of ditto-head conservatives out there...
Once again, would these people's kids have been better served in a public school in which NOBODY spoke Italian??? And we live in a modern world in which reading/writing are now MORE important than ever before... "bosses" and "ghettos"??? I'm sorry, is this what you WANT for Tulsa?
quote:
There's nothing xenophobic about my post. I'm fine with immigrants coming here so long as they respect our laws, language, and culture.
What do you mean by respecting the language and culture? Should they speak english at all times? Do they have your permision to listen to spanish-speaking radio stations or watch Univision or Telemundo? Or should that be illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia
quote:
Gangs of New York is a "dramatized" account of our history, not a factual document.
That film's historical context is MUCH closer to fact than your contention that other ethnic groups (including the Irish) just "assimilated" out of thin air... yeah, they just held hands and magically started singing "Yankee Doodle"?!?
quote:
I think you would be hard-pressed to find another country that would be accepting of a bunch of American immigrants who refused to learn the local language and assimilate into their culture. They would consider it arrogant and insulting.
How much do you know about "other countries"??? Are you fluent in a language other than english? How hard was it to learn? Did you have to constantly practice the language? Did you feel like an idiot when you found out that though you thought you were fluent you still had no experiences with any slang, buzzwords, inside jokes, etc...?
quote:
Unless you don't live in Tulsa, it would be hard to miss the large Hispanic communities around Admiral & Lewis and out east off 21st St.
I don't currently live in Tulsa, but I've seen the growing number of hispanics around Executive Mall when I've visited... Tulsa's not very different from where I currently live... lotsa hispanics here in northern Illinois... maybe all you see is the neighborhood going to the dogs... maybe all you see is a buncha "illegals" who, in your english-only opinion, refuse to speak the language...
You are flaming for the sake of flaming and making gross assumptions of my beliefs.
What other posters have referred to about the language barrier in service industries has nothing to do with heavy accents, it's got to do with them not comprehending anything other than "hello" and "I'd like a number 4".
I actually find quite a bit of charm in the Mexican-owned and run businesses in the Whittier area. I recognize that as being a hard-working and established part of the community. I'm glad there are resources for Hispanic radio. No, I don't expect any immigrant to renounce their heritage.
You are trying to romanticize and trivialize our present immigration problem by invoking Hollywood productions like "Gangs Of New York." Nowhere did I say that they magically were Americans overnight, nor would I ever ignore there were struggles.
You fail to recognize that there are a good number of immigrants here who flat-donkey refuse to learn our language, respect our laws, and who exploit the generosity of our government.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
You are trying to romanticize and trivialize our present immigration problem by invoking Hollywood productions like "Gangs Of New York." Nowhere did I say that they magically were Americans overnight, nor would I ever ignore there were struggles.
You fail to recognize that there are a good number of immigrants here who flat-donkey refuse to learn our language, respect our laws, and who exploit the generosity of our government.
And there are also flat-donkey lazy rednecks who refuse to work or respect the law either... you know what they say about "a few bad apples."
I've been working next to the bilingual dept in a call center... so I hear co-workers who switch back-and-forth from spanish to english on a regular basis. And I'd imagine if we'd get past all the talk about the minority of immigrants who "flat-donkey refuse to learn..." that Tulsa could get some of those jobs. Jobs that go begging in many cities because public schools refuse to offer bilingual programs that would help second generation kids...
From the KOTV link:
quote:
News on 6 anchor Terry Hood says San Miguel targets the Hispanic community that lives in Tulsa's Kendall-Whitter neighborhood School near Admiral and Atlanta.
The school started a few years back with this group of kids. Now, eight graders are on their way to becoming San Miguel's first graduates. Principal Curt Adams couldn't be happier with their progress. He says most of his students come to school 2-to-3 years behind where they should be.
I've got to say that Conan makes some very good points here. The comment was made that there are a lot of Hispanics in southern Florida. If you went to the city data forum and read through many of the posts, you'd see that native Floridians are fleeing because they've been "taken over". I know that term isn't a welcome one, but it's the way those people are feeling.[:(]
I noticed that someone already caught the comment about Cherokee being the first language. It made me chuckle cause I was going to say that Lakota was the first language.[:P] But the fact is that I'm guessing the Cherokee have also learned English, as the Sioux have. We should all be welcome to be in America, but we do need to strive to do it legally. We also should fly the American flag and speak English. If we forced English on the people who were already here, why now should we need to learn a second language to accomodate those who are joining us in America?[?]
Native Floridians? What are those?
I thought all Florida residents were from somewhere else.
Even the English-speaking ones.
[;)]
Rwarn thanks for giving me a chuckle.[}:)] Actually, there are some native Floridians. My brother's wife was born and raised in Florida and still lives there. They live in central Fla., though.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
And what exactly, does any of that have to do with teaching both spanish and english in schools, the original subject of this thread? [:(!]
The problem with relying on schools to teach English to those who don't speak it is that a teacher is not permitted to fail someone in an English course simply because the student can't speak it. At least, that is what a teacher friend tells me. If anyone can make sense out of that, I'd like to hear the explanation.
BTW, I'm equally put off by vacant-eyed teens mumbling in English at a service counter, as I am by people who don't speak it at all. Bash me all you want, but when I go to a service counter, I expect service and not blank stares because the person on the other side of the counter can't understand anything I'm saying.
Mark, you won't get any bashing from me about that. They're very possibly taking a job away from an American-born, English speaking teen OR from a semi-retired person who'd love to make a few extra dollars to subsidize their social security checks. [:P]
What areas of Tulsa have the highest population of Hispanics? Do they all somewhat live in the same areas or are they integrated throughout the city? I know that a previous poster said there were several in the Lewis Street area.[?]
With an unemployment rate under 4% they aren't taking any jobs from anyone.
And there are three heavily hispanic areas of Tulsa.
Admiral and Lewis, Peoria between 61st and 71st and the 31st and Garnett area. I have heard that the areas are not alike. That the east Tulsa area at 31st and Garnett is mostly comprised of people of Central and South American decent, and the the areas on Peoria and Lewis are mostly Mexican.
quote:
Originally posted by Markk
QuoteThe problem with relying on schools to teach English to those who don't speak it is that a teacher is not permitted to fail someone in an English course simply because the student can't speak it. At least, that is what a teacher friend tells me. If anyone can make sense out of that, I'd like to hear the explanation.
BTW, I'm equally put off by vacant-eyed teens mumbling in English at a service counter, as I am by people who don't speak it at all. Bash me all you want, but when I go to a service counter, I expect service and not blank stares because the person on the other side of the counter can't understand anything I'm saying.
First, I bet your teacher friend doesn't speak spanish.
It's funny that most colleges have "english as a second language" programs to address some of the english deficiencies of international students. Yet efforts at bilingual education at the elementary/middle school/high school level are politicized... yep, let's just hold 'em back... or even worse... engage in "social promotion"... then just call them "stupid."
Second generation immigrants (no matter whether they're legal or illegal) are at a distinct disadvantage because spanish is the language spoken at home. Watch Univision or Telemundo or Galavision for more than 10 mins and you'll see commercials for "English made easy"... some geared for children... some geared for adults...
And yes Markyboy, I'll bash the bashers... especially the ones who expect perfect English from people who make minimum wage at a fast food joint. Ever think that those people working at Mickey D's might be doing so to IMPROVE their english skills???... otherwise, I'm sure they could do something else like bussing tables, cleaning houses, construction, etc, etc...
If you expect good service from people who speak better english, then pay more. Go to a full service restaurant and stop acting the victim. (though I guess you'd still have to stay away from the Chinese and Mexican restaurants, come to think of it). [:D]
quote:
Originally posted by Jammie
Mark, you won't get any bashing from me about that. They're very possibly taking a job away from an American-born, English speaking teen OR from a semi-retired person who'd love to make a few extra dollars to subsidize their social security checks. [:P]
So who do you blame for the heavy accented non American born person getting the job over some okie that was born here? Do you blame the person or the manager that hired him?
To blame the person is wrong. Its not his fault that he is willing to work for less money and little or no benefits. After all, that teen might be buying booze with his money versus somebody else that may be trying to support a family.
Its not your job unless your manager says it is. BTW, wasnt it MCD that was thinking or testing the idea of having the drive thru order be taken from someone in India?
DM, now that you mention it, it does sound familiar and it was McDonald's that was planning on doing that.
Of course I don't blame the person who took the job, but the fact is that they can work for less. If they're sick, the county pays for it whereas we have to carry medical insurance and pay premiums. They don't carry so much as liability insurance on their vehicles, where we generally carry full coverage. They don't have life insurance because the county will pay their bill for that. In our culture, we generally live as a family unit. They often live 20 people per house so you can imagine how cheap their expenses are. So naturally, they will work for a low wage, but who pays in the end?[?]
quote:
Originally posted by DM
This school should be eligible for government money just like every other school is. Just because it caters to Hispanics doesn't not mean anything. Not all Hispanics (kids and parents) came across the border. It's sad that people have that mentality.
There are plenty of white schools that cater to whites. They just don't advertise it. But yet I don't see anyone throwing a fuss about them receiving government money.
Let me see if I'm digesting this correctly, we should use taxpayer money to support a private, segregated, religous school? Should private, segregated, religous schools for whites be eligible? Good luck with that B.S.
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
Let me see if I'm digesting this correctly, we should use taxpayer money to support a private, segregated, religous school? Should private, segregated, religous schools for whites be eligible? Good luck with that B.S.
You dont digest very well. lol!
I dont think that taxpayer money should be used for any schools that focus on a certain religous or ethnic groups. But if you think that it is not happening now, you should think again. It only becomes an issue when its Hispanics that do it. Heaven forbid them to get the same education that some white person is getting.
I have worked retail for several years. It is rare to find someone who does not speak English... however, if they don't, 75% of the time they bring someone along who does (often times someone who speaks English fluently).
I will say this, as well... most immigrants speak VERY broken English, and I am talking about immigrants from anywhere. Besides, I have had more Chinese people who have had English difficulties than Latinos. And you know, the kicker is that where ever these immigrants are from, they are usually nicer than most of the English speaking natives I've dealt with.
With that said, let's get back on topic. Schools that provide English speaking courses are helping advance Hispanics beyond the poorer class. Besides, latinos who make the effort to have their children learn the English language and American culture are showing that they do not want to make us into another Mexico. We don't see the effort that often, though. The reason for this is that Tulsa (for the exception of a few private organizations) has not taken steps in the right direction. They have not made this scenario plausible for Hispanics. Right now San Miguel has enough staff to support around maybe 150 kids. There are over 50,000 reported Hispanics in the city. I am personally convinced that there isn't enough of a concern.
Newer studies have shown that immersion classes, though more difficult in the beginning, are much more effective than bilingual classes.
quote:
Originally posted by DM
Heaven forbid them to get the same education that some white person is getting.
It's not a matter of being white, brown, black, yellow or even orange DM. It's a matter about being legal.
quote:
Originally posted by hortoma2
Newer studies have shown that immersion classes, though more difficult in the beginning, are much more effective than bilingual classes.
That is the dirty little secret that these ESL advocates try to cover up. Eisenhower just celebrated the 25th anniversary of their successful immersion program. Immersion is the best way to learn another language. Providing instruction in Spanish is doing these children a great disservice. All the services provided in Spanish aren't helping their parents learn English, either. All we are doing is enabling them to remain at a disadvantage in our country and wasting tons of money in the process that could be used for much better things.
There is not a dirty little secret, doubleA.
Why do you say such things?
Immersion programs are more effective, but way more difficult and expensive to do. Everyone who has kids involved knows that.
The school systems are trying a variety of ways to educate our children and elementary education is a constantly changing dynamic.
Do you even have any kids in school?
Based on your comments "Providing instruction in Spanish is doing these children a great disservice", would a kid who has a spanish speaking relative at home not be allowed to be in an immersion program?
What about the french immersion program? Are they providing a disservice or do you just attack spanish speaking people?
I get the feeling they just like to attack Spanish speakers.
The best way to learn a foreign language is submersion -- ask any native English speaker who is bilingual. They learned another language by surrounding themselves with that language. I've taken tons of spanish in college and barely remember a thing. My spanish teacher friend didn't take any at all in college and learned it by moving to Costa Rica. She's absolutely fluent. I am really jealous when she can communicate with people I can't. I love going to the hispanic market with her.
Was the implication from Double A that the Eisenhower program was for hispanic kids? If that's the case, it couldn't be more off-base.
When I visited Eisenhower ten or 12 years ago to look into it for my older daughter, I don't recall seeing that many latino-looking kids.
I went to Eisenhower today for the school assembly. My sister (an elementary school assistant principle and english as a second grade teacher in Florida) wanted to meet the principal and see the school resources.
All the teachers and kids were in the gym at the same time.
It is a real melting pot. There are many kids from spanish speaking and french speaking households,as well as black, asian and American Indian children.
It is the number one performing elementary school in the state. In the classroom, half the school speaks spanish and the other half speaks french, but on the playground all the kids speak english.