http://health.yahoo.com/news/166633
"Mining, smelting and petroleum production all produce this type of pollution, Coyle said, as can motor vehicle exhaust.
But while air pollution has been directly linked to respiratory disorders and heart disease, its role in lung cancer is still under debate."
Take out the refineries along the Arkansas. I don't care if they did just spend $75,000,000 on their facility.
Relocate them elsewhere. Our community would benefit visually and environmentally too.
Pretty good stink yesterday in my area. Across the river east and south of the refineries. Bad for open houses. Several different smells.
I understand that Hersey Pa. smells like chocolate. Maybe we could trade them.
Duh.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
http://health.yahoo.com/news/166633
"Mining, smelting and petroleum production all produce this type of pollution, Coyle said, as can motor vehicle exhaust.
But while air pollution has been directly linked to respiratory disorders and heart disease, its role in lung cancer is still under debate."
Take out the refineries along the Arkansas. I don't care if they did just spend $75,000,000 on their facility.
Relocate them elsewhere. Our community would benefit visually and environmentally too.
You are so right. The old refineries need to go. They are a source of cancer causing chemicals like benzene. At least three different Tulsa neighborhoods, Brookside, Owen Park and West Tulsa have brought lawsuits against our refineries for hazardous emissions. The EPA has also taken action against Tulsa's refineries. We need leadership and a private public partnership to relocate the refineries.
I have heard plans to construct a giant oil refinery in Cushing, where the major pipelines across the U.S. meet and where there is plenty of open land with few inhabitants. That seems like a better place for the refineries than Tulsa, even if it does mean we lose a few hundred jobs.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
I have heard plans to construct a giant oil refinery in Cushing, where the major pipelines across the U.S. meet and where there is plenty of open land with few inhabitants. That seems like a better place for the refineries than Tulsa, even if it does mean we lose a few hundred jobs.
Question,
Is there a way that the City of Tulsa could participate in the new refinery in Cushing and retain income that would be lost with the closing of the two refineries here in town?
If there is a refinery built in Cushing (a decade or more in the making) many Tulsa companies will benefit from it for years. Tulsa heat exchanger builders are gleeful about the proposition of a new refinery because it would mean a ton of work. However, the problem is a lack of qualified welders. Heat exchanger companies are seeing record profits after several years of being in the red. The only thing that is holding them back is a lack of qualified people.
Well we know where you stand on the conservative-liberal side of things don't we. Big gov't is not good .... the refineries should stay!
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
Well we know where you stand on the conservative-liberal side of things don't we. Big gov't is not good .... the refineries should stay!
You get any of that cancer causing stink out there in Oh-Wassah?
Really the proposed refinery in Cushing will be our best chance of getting rid of the west bank refineries. The site there already has one of the largest tank farms in the nation, high security, and is the crossing point of the country's major pipelines. This is all about 10 miles south of the actual city of Cushing, and could mean hundreds of new jobs for the small town during construction and after it's operational. Seems like a good plan to me, where's Senator Inhofe when we need him?
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Really the proposed refinery in Cushing will be our best chance of getting rid of the west bank refineries. The site there already has one of the largest tank farms in the nation, high security, and is the crossing point of the country's major pipelines. This is all about 10 miles south of the actual city of Cushing, and could mean hundreds of new jobs for the small town during construction and after it's operational. Seems like a good plan to me, where's Senator Inhofe when we need him?
Inhofe? He and Coburn are working hard on their own political futures and doing nothing to bring home the bacon to Oklahoma. God help us ... because our senators won't.
Smell that smell!!! What a gorgeous September!
Too bad it stunk most the time.
I stand amazed that all this discussion on making Tulsa it's not while our water and air continually get worse. You can try to widen and tame a river, impose burden on taxpayers, build an arena for tractor pulls and fundamentalist conventions, and build a 5 month baseball field. But even with all that glamour, it will still stink and taste funny.
If the city would use $300,000,000 to relocate those health hazards, then we might appear progressive, protecticve, and proactive to the world.
Smell that smell!!! What a gorgeous September!
Too bad it stunk most the time.
I stand amazed that all this discussion on making Tulsa "what it's not" while our water and air continually spoil. You can try to widen and tame a river, impose burden on taxpayers, build an arena for tractor pulls and fundamentalist conventions, and construct a 5 month duplicitous baseball field. But even with all that glamour, it will still stink and taste funny. Not very attractive.
If the city would use $300,000,000 to relocate those health hazards, then we might appear progressive, protective, and proactive to the world.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Smell that smell!!! What a gorgeous September!
Too bad it stunk most the time.
I stand amazed that all this discussion on making Tulsa "what it's not" while our water and air continually spoil. You can try to widen and tame a river, impose burden on taxpayers, build an arena for tractor pulls and fundamentalist conventions, and construct a 5 month duplicitous baseball field. But even with all that glamour, it will still stink and taste funny. Not very attractive.
If the city would use $300,000,000 to relocate those health hazards, then we might appear progressive, protective, and proactive to the world.
I still don't think you have looked the word "duplicitous" up...........
quote:
I stand amazed that all this discussion on making Tulsa it's not while our water and air continually get worse.
That statement is untrue for Tulsa's air and the Arkansas river.
The river and airshed have continually to improve for the last 30 plus years in America and in Tulsa.
Don't get me wrong, we have a long way to go, but the river is much cleaner than it used to be and air pollution levels are considerably lower than less than a generation ago.
I met with state and Mayor's officials yesterday to learn more about the DEQ beginning a new air quality monitoring program, especially targeted at emissions from the refineries and selected industrial areas.
Tulsa is very serious about the health of our environment and are working hard to mitigate the problems.
One of the things I do like about the Channels Project is that the plans call for cleaner and more sustainable energy and includes plans to help clean the Arkansas river even more.
From this month's Maple Ridge newsletter (http://www.mapleridgeneighborhood.com/pdf%20Files/web-fall06-newsletter.pdf):
quote:
Tulsa's "refinery smell" is not entirely due to the city's two oil refineries. A lot of other industries and operations on the west side of the Arkansas River contribute to the overall odor and emissions problem.
...
Both Sunoco and Sinclair have spent large sums of money in recent decades to improve their operations and reduce both noises and odors. Both will have to make changes soon to reduce sulfur content of some fuels since the cannot spew the removed sulfur into the air, the effect may be some reduction in odors. The City of Tulsa has begun a major study of odors and emissions all along the river but it will be at least a year before any results are available.
[INCOG] monitors air quality and lists Sinclair as the top emitter of hydrocarbons, sulfur and other odorous and pollutant materials. Sunoco is second, with [PSO] third from its Riverside plant.
Sunoco has done much to respond to community concerns, with a "hot line" for complaints and questions, a quarterly newsletter and a community advisory panel. Ironically, Sunoco's efforts in some ways seem to have focused attention on that refinery, even though experts say Sinclair may be a bigger problem.
...
The two refineries are different: Sunoco processes 85,000 barrels of crude oil per day, all low-sulfur "sweet" crude, producing mostly lubricants but also some gasoline and diesel fuel. Sinclair processes 65,000 per day into 2.4 million gallons of gasoline and diesel fuel; it is a major supplier of gasoline in Tulsa.
...
Here are the contact points for Sunoco and Sinclair refineries:
Sunoco
Community Hotline 594-6800 (prompt #5)
Communications Specialist Lori Webster 594-6770
Sinclair does not have a "hotline," and lists only a general refinery number 584-5025. Also Sinclair does not list a communications spokesman but works through a local public relations agency.
It is important to call any time you smell something. Unless the smell is traced to a specific cause, it is easy to blame someone else.
quote:
[PSO] third from its Riverside plant
Anyone for moving PSO...or just big-bad oil?
Say what?
Who are you?
Answer: an anti environmental whacko.....
Everyone seems to agree that no matter what stupid idea comes out of that river, if the refineries PSO included are still here, it's wasted funding.
The refineries and PSO are more dangerous than smoking or secondary smoke.
Wake up. Make Tulsa one of America's most beautiful and safest cities.
quote:
Pmcalk you are pathetic.
That's a hateful and unnecessary response...woe be it to anyone trying to challenge your news story with another valid one suggesting they are not the only perpetrators in town. Are you going to start calling for deporting PSO as well?
PSO deported themselves to Ohio. They are not here. They put little reinvestment into their infrastructure.
They are no longer a good corporate eyesore, er citizen.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Say what? Pmcalk you are pathetic.
Who are you?
Answer: an anti environmental whacko.....
Everyone seems to agree that no matter what stupid idea comes out of that river, if the refineries PSO included are still here, it's wasted funding.
The refineries and PSO are more dangerous than smoking or secondary smoke.
Wake up. Make Tulsa one of America's most beautiful and safest cities.
Why in the world would you attack me, simply because I posted what was some information? You don't know anything about me, nor my point of view on the environment.
Good, lord, I am so tired of people simply resorting to ad hominen attacks, especially when they haven't a clue what they are talking about.
For the record, I posted the information,
which I did not write for several reasons:
1. Sunoco often gets blamed for stench when its most likely Sinclair, the major culprit in pollution.
2. If you don't call and complain, the refineries can argue, "we haven't gotten any complaints, therefore there isn't a problem."
3. I smell that stench all of the time. Honestly, I don't always know who is responsible, but I want someone to find out and
STOP IT. I figure the best way to do that is to start making calls. I would hope that others would do the same.
I would appreciate it if, from now on, you have a point to make, make it. If the best you can do is falsely accuse me of something you know nothing about, then I suppose I will just put you on my ignore list.
Ignore aox, it was rude...and ad hominem attacks are strictly for the politics threads.[;)]
Who else besides me thinks that smell from the refineries is reminiscent of rancid blueberry muffins?
Whatever...
You are correct about Sinclair which got the go ahead last year to sell gasoline with a higher Reid Vapor Presure loosening regulatory "chains". Because of the waiver in national regulatory policy by the Bush administration, a greater supply is produced daily releasing more toxins into the air we breath.
Now that gasoline is back down in price (election time), where are the old lower limits? What happend to controls?
Where is the outrage?
You can be outraged all you want. Just don't be a jerk to others in doing so.
Here's a thought. We added money in V2025 to attract Boeing. Maybe we should use that money to repel Sinclair and Sunoco. Sweetening the cost of closing, reducing or moving their operations to Cushing. A roundabout way of subsidizing the remediation costs necessary for those sites. The cost would certainly be offset by the new taxes returned from all the riverfront development property that becomes available. It stimulates the West side of the river and creates connections via bridges to downtown and Brookside. The Channels group could redirect their money to this repelling venture too. Just a thought.
Pretty wild assumption on the revenue side..."The cost would certainly be offset by the new taxes returned from all the riverfront development property that becomes available."
Don't see much action happening around the tractor pull arena. what makes you think we will see riverfront development. Most major cities have parks along their rivers. We wanna be major, don't we?
Just curious.........
quote:
The Channels group could redirect their money to this repelling venture too.
Did you honestly write this with a straight face..?
I'm feeling a little honery[8D]. Tongue in cheek aside, the cost may not be totally offset because honestly its simply an undeveloped idea. I don't know all the costs or all the revenues.
But, what other cities do I don't care. The quick development of Riverwalk and the successful Bricktown lessons should be written in stone for our city leaders. "Provide the infrastructure, the environment, the framework and the incentives for development, then let private business do what it does best...satisfy consumer demand."
That means privately held riverfront land gets developed faster and more effectively than massively owned public lands.
More thoughts. Look, its not that we don't revere the money or the contribution that the refineries make to the community. Its more like recognizing that we're a married couple that aged together but has drifted apart. The refineries were a great match for a rapidly growing young Tulsa who overlooked their smell and dirty demeanor. But we're a different city now with different needs. The refinery isn't going to change and can never be clean enough to be this close to the city. And the pain of separation will be both financial and emotional but new suitors will ease the pain.
And this. Those who think that land around the river is too vital to public interests for it to fall in the hands of private owners take note. What would Cherry Street, Brookside and Utica Square look like had they been public properties leased out to private interests? They would still be in the planning stages with INCOG! There is plenty of RPA owned land along the river, they proved they can't do much with it and any new lands from a refinery should be considered "land rush" lands open to public bidding.
Our refineries put Tulsa on the same level as a trailer park next to a backwater industrial "no man's land."
We bought a house in Tulsa a year ago, in several of the neighborhoods we looked at our realtor cautioned us about "refinery smells." How many hundreds of millions of dollars does that work out to in terms of lost sales and reduced property values?
Ironically the smells have been worse in September (during the Channels discussion) than at any time this past year.
RecycleMichael, I understand the EPA does not test for Benzene. Benzene is a cancer causing agent and refineries emit it. Secondly, I am not sure how much I trust the Bush administration's EPA. RM, you almost seem to have a vested interest in the survival of the refineries.
What has puzzled me more than anything else is why Tulsa's citizens aren't up in arms about this issue? I honestly think that Tulsans suffer from low self esteem and are unaware of their basic rights. We don't deserve to be healthy, or have a downtown, or enjoy our river.
And we continue to be puzzled at why downtown development and river development never really gets off the ground. How do I spell R E F I N E R I E S?
First things first. As difficult as it will be, the refineries must relocate. Anything else is lipstick on a pig.
If we are smart about it we can use the relocation to bolster our position in the oil business. In other words, relocating the refineries and loving the oil business are not mutually exclusive.
You could not be more wrong about me.
I moved away from west Tulsa and one of the factors was the smell.
I just know that there are other smelly things over there as well. If pointing out facts makes you feel I have some inside gain by the refineries, you are mistaken about me. I have gone out of my way to mention that there is also a power plant, a trash-to-energy plant, a hazardous waste injection well and many heavy industrial emitters on the west bank.
If your blaming the r e f i n e r i e s for everything is the way you want to argue, I will just disagree with the facts. That is like blaming all crime on immigration. Yes, immigration issues can be a factor, but crime happens from other groups as well.
I have defended the Sunoco refinery more than the Sinclair refinery on this forum and one of the reasons is that I regularly meet with them and they respond to my crazy suggestions better. They have also done a better job cleaning up.
Testing is now taking place for benzene in the Tulsa area. I met with air officials this week to learn more.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
You could not be more wrong about me.
I moved away from west Tulsa and one of the factors was the smell.
I just know that there are other smelly things over there as well. If pointing out facts makes you feel I have some inside gain by the refineries, you are mistaken about me. I have gone out of my way to mention that there is also a power plant, a trash-to-energy plant, a hazardous waste injection well and many heavy industrial emitters on the west bank.
If your blaming the r e f i n e r i e s for everything is the way you want to argue, I will just disagree with the facts. That is like blaming all crime on immigration. Yes, immigration issues can be a factor, but crime happens from other groups as well.
I have defended the Sunoco refinery more than the Sinclair refinery on this forum and one of the reasons is that I regularly meet with them and they respond to my crazy suggestions better. They have also done a better job cleaning up.
Testing is now taking place for benzene in the Tulsa area. I met with air officials this week to learn more.
Well, it was a question RM. You "seem" has some built in qualifiers. I stand corrected.
But I would like to add the refineries have a long history of emission problems stretching over many decades. And they have been warned, fined, et cetera before. I think it is overly optimistic to suggest that the results of a study will correct much of anything. It might be one of those situations where it is less expensive to pay fines than it is to correct the problem.
At least a comprehensive test would answer some questions for Tulsa's residents. Who is going to test and is there an independent body that will certify the results of the test?
And from what I found on the internet, I agree it looks like Sinclair is more of a culprit.
No doubt it is a nasty business, one that doesn't work well with urban development.
The air testing is being done by DEQ and is driven by complaints. They are using EPA approved methods and equipment
I will be watching it very closely.
Recyclemichael, what part of West Tulsa did you live?
I live in West Tulsa, and I hardly ever smell the refineries.
Hometown....way to go. At least someone else here is wondering why there is no outrage.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Our refineries put Tulsa on the same level as a trailer park next to a backwater industrial "no man's land."
We bought a house in Tulsa a year ago, in several of the neighborhoods we looked at our realtor cautioned us about "refinery smells." How many hundreds of millions of dollars does that work out to in terms of lost sales and reduced property values?
Ironically the smells have been worse in September (during the Channels discussion) than at any time this past year.
RecycleMichael, I understand the EPA does not test for Benzene. Benzene is a cancer causing agent and refineries emit it. Secondly, I am not sure how much I trust the Bush administration's EPA. RM, you almost seem to have a vested interest in the survival of the refineries.
What has puzzled me more than anything else is why Tulsa's citizens aren't up in arms about this issue? I honestly think that Tulsans suffer from low self esteem and are unaware of their basic rights. We don't deserve to be healthy, or have a downtown, or enjoy our river.
And we continue to be puzzled at why downtown development and river development never really gets off the ground. How do I spell R E F I N E R I E S?
First things first. As difficult as it will be, the refineries must relocate. Anything else is lipstick on a pig.
If we are smart about it we can use the relocation to bolster our position in the oil business. In other words, relocating the refineries and loving the oil business are not mutually exclusive.
Refineries are like prisons. Everyone is for them, they just don't want them in their back yard. [;)]
Is everyone willing to pay a little more for finished petroleum products to cover the cost of moving the refineries? If we move them to the Port of Catoosa which would logistically make almost as much sense as Cushing, then the people in Catoosa and Claremore would be faced with the same air quality issues, same as moving them to Cushing.
We all have a vested interest in these refineries because they put money back in our economy via taxes & jobs and they provide a convenient much-needed commodity to our metro area.
It's not just Bush's EPA, it's the EPA of the Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II administrations that have made it virtually impossible for new refineries to be built and old ones to be replaced.
Along with stifling any new refinery construction, the EPA has made it almost cost-prohibitive for a refinery to shut down. I was either told, or there was a story in the paper back in the mid-1990's when Sunoco stopped producing their high-octane gas at the west Tulsa refinery that they were considering shuttering the whole plant. But there was no way they could afford to shut it down due to the remediation costs and that was the only reason it stayed operational. I was driving through Okmulgee a couple of weeks ago, and there is STILL remediation of some sort taking place at their old refinery.
As far as the smell that migrates along the river, there are also chemical plants up-river from the refinery which make a variety of smelly chemicals, there's a waste-treatment plant right off I-44, though I believe the old sludge drying beds at 71st St. have been dried and filled in for a long time now. There are also several plating/galvanizing operations that add to the evil-smelling brew over here on the west side. Though I will admit the smell is worse when the wind is out of the north at my office on W. 41st St and we get the "funk" from Sinclair.
It's just not as simple as it sounds.
No. None of this is simple.
But ask yourself, " if I were to stay here for 100 years, how would I want the city to be? And if I start this decade, even though I will be long gone, what would I like to see for Tulsa?"
Well, first on my list is a quality environment.
I lived on the south side of the south building at Center Plaza back in the mid- '80's. I remember the literature talking about the stunning river views. Yeah, some view that refinery was [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Recyclemichael, what part of West Tulsa did you live?
I live in West Tulsa, and I hardly ever smell the refineries.
We lived close to Reed Park and Webster.
Grandma and Uncle Charlie both still live up the hill from Crystal City. My father is a 40 year member of the Red Fork Lions Club and has his picture on the wall near the main entrance as a member of the Webster High School hall of Fame.
I love the west side, even though I now live east over by Mingo Creek. It is an awesome treasure.
I still stay involved. I chaired the send-a-kid-to-camp campaign this year for the Westside YMCA and have a great recycling center just east of 51st and Union by the Warehouse Market.
I tell people I am over in west Tulsa and they always say, "whadda you doing over there"?
OK. I live about a half-mile west into Red Fork. I think Lookout Mountain and the hill next to it shield my neighborhood from the refinery smell.
Glad to hear you still like the west side. I certainly do.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
OK. I live about a half-mile west into Red Fork. I think Lookout Mountain and the hill next to it shield my neighborhood from the refinery smell.
Glad to hear you still like the west side. I certainly do.
West Tulsa rocks....great folks. I worked in Red Fork when I was young and found out there were real people in Tulsa.
They endure through the worst air in Tulsa. They deserve better.