KOTV - 9/12/2006 10:39 AM - Updated: 9/12/2006 5:17 PM
Tulsa's city council is talking about illegal immigration and whether the city has a role in discouraging it.
News on 6 reporter Emory Bryan says the debate on illegal immigration has come to city hall - and here it's mainly about lost taxes and the cost to city government. No one at the city is sure how big a problem it is - they're researching that - but the council took the first step Tuesday towards an ordinance preventing companies from hiring illegals.
The Tulsa city council was divided on what to do, but seemed united on wanting to do something. Councilor Bill Christiansen: "We need to set the example in Tulsa." Councilor Jack Henderson: "My problem is the enforcement of it, how are you going to enforce it?"
The talk about the about the possibility of illegal immigrants working on city projects, drew a crowd. Most of the spectators were part of a group pushing for an illegal immigration ordinance. David O'Connor with Citizens Fair And Clean Government: "It is an overall problem of a lot of third world countries coming here excuse the pun here because Tulsa is a sanctuary city."
The council discussed whether the city knew if any of its contractors hired illegal immigrants - and the city staff said there was no one checking. There is no city law requiring contract employees to be documented, because the city defers to the federal law that requires it.
Several of the city councilors mentioned a video as part of the reason they want to do something. Announcer: "Unmarked cash. Unpaid taxes. Uninsured workers. Unsafe conditions." The video came from the Carpenters Union, which believe illegals and people who work for cash are undermining good wages. Adrian Privett with the Carpenters Union: "There are other cities in the country that have adopted ordinances to curb this."
While the city of Tulsa doesn't watch over companies building public projects to see who they're hiring, some councilors think the city should. Councilor Rick Westcott: "Whether or not it imposes an undue burden on small businesses to comply with the ordinance, this may sound harsh, but I don't think that needs to be part of the equation."
The city council is going to wait for Tulsa's Public Works Department to do some checking on what it can require of contractors and their subcontractors.
We need to give them the "Rawhide" treatment,
Head them up and move them out...
The USA has become a welfare package for the illegals... and crime is getting crazy in Tulsa.... let them get here the legal way, then they can pay their own hospital bills and maybe they will buy automobile insurance...
Its great that something might be done to curb illegal immigration at a local level.
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
The discussion on immigration reminds me of a conversation I had with a handy man a few months back. I had hired him to do some work around my home. Anyway, I was exchanging a little banter with him when he launched into a tirade about undocumented workers and "Mexicans." Since my partner is a Latino and he and I were paying this guy's rent I thought his remarks were particularly rude but I took the opportunity to try and say a few positive things about Latinos and Latin culture. Meanwhile, this handy man (who happened to be an overweight, older White man) was doing really lousy work. I looked him over and I thought, "You really don't need any competition, do you?"
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
The discussion on immigration reminds me of a conversation I had with a handy man a few months back. I had hired him to do some work around my home. Anyway, I was exchanging a little banter with him when he launched into a tirade about undocumented workers and "Mexicans." Since my partner is a Latino and he and I were paying this guy's rent I thought his remarks were particularly rude but I took the opportunity to try and say a few positive things about Latinos and Latin culture. Meanwhile, this handy man (who happened to be an overweight, older White man) was doing really lousy work. I looked him over and I thought, "You really don't need any competition, do you?"
how about we send you all the tax bills paying for illegal's healthcare and see if its still a "red herring" issue.
obviously you are white collar, I am too. But today its carpenters, tomorrow its middle management. if someone undercuts you on wages because they dont play by the rules you have to, how does that seem fair? thats what illegals are doing. they work for lower cash only wages, then dont pay taxes.
if we SEVERELY punish those who hire illegals, the illegals will go away. Its that simple. buts its going to take some witch hunts and rais on companies around here to make sure they are playing straight. I think Tulsa should subsidize an ICE officer
I predict that you and I will live to see the day when immigration is dramatically increased in order to prop up our system and to fund Baby Boomer retirement.
The truth is that Tulsa is experiencing a labor crisis. Have you tried to hire any workers recently? It's gotten to the point that it doesn't matter how much money you have to work with, there are next to no available workers to hire.
Tulsa has so many pressing problems. Taking over a federal responsibility when there is no compelling reason to do so does not make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
The discussion on immigration reminds me of a conversation I had with a handy man a few months back. I had hired him to do some work around my home. Anyway, I was exchanging a little banter with him when he launched into a tirade about undocumented workers and "Mexicans." Since my partner is a Latino and he and I were paying this guy's rent I thought his remarks were particularly rude but I took the opportunity to try and say a few positive things about Latinos and Latin culture. Meanwhile, this handy man (who happened to be an overweight, older White man) was doing really lousy work. I looked him over and I thought, "You really don't need any competition, do you?"
So what does this lazy, fat, white person have to do with the hords of illegals abusing our system? Oh, I see, the old argument that U.S. citizens can't or won't do the work of an illegal. You may want the issue to go away, Hometown, but it won't.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
A red herring would suggest a unimportant issue.This is a very important issue that can get worse and worse as we ignore it and cost us more and more money to deal with it.The traitors who hire illegals should lose their property, severely fined and tossed in prison for trying to encourage illegal immigration.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesrage
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
A red herring would suggest a unimportant issue.This is a very important issue that can get worse and worse as we ignore it and cost us more and more money to deal with it.The traitors who hire illegals should lose their property, severely fined and tossed in prison for trying to encourage illegal immigration.
This red herring does not mean unimportant, it means a distraction from things that can actually be done. How does a city that is struggling to meet its basic obligations take on an issue of national importance like immigration? Unfair? Yes. Unusually unfair...probably not. Are we losing taxes? Yes. But no more unfair or income damaging than age discrimination, Indian preference, gambling or pretty girls getting TV anchor jobs.
If its hard to find labor now, wait till we run off or even discourage illegals. Its capitalism and the free market baby, hold on for dear life.
Interesting subject. Although I rarely exchange any political views, this doesn't even seem political to me. They're ILLEGALS. The name says it all. Drugs are illegal and murder is illegal so that should tell us something.
Sorry to hear that Tulsa is plagued with them, too. We have them in a nearby town. They always ship a group up from Texas to work on a chicken ranch. The owner doesn't like to pay more then minimum wage or offer his employees access to health care or anything. So, he takes his chances with illegals. The van load full of them rent ONE house in the town. By the time they're caught, which is usually two or three months later, they've demolished the house. So much for renting to them and all their friends. Of course they can live on minimum wage. Each one pays twenty dollars a month for rent. They all twenty get together and buy one washer and one dryer and one fridge, etc. The last house they lived in had to be burned down after three months of them occupying it. They're then caught and shipped back home and it's only a few days later another group of illegals makes their way up here.
A few years ago a group of illegals nearly bankrupted our neighboring county. They were all illegal and were heading for Minn. for jobs that were given to them illegally. They had an awful accident and several were killed. The little county had to pay for all their medical bills because of course they carry no insurance on their vehicles or on themselves. A few of them were killed and the county was also responsible for their funerals since they again carry no life insurance on themselves.
Most of them refuse to speak English because we've coddled them into believing that WE must learn their language even though they're in OUR country illegally. Their children are tutored in our schools because it is our responsibility to educate them because of course they deserve it. The school not dare turn in the family because that would just be wrong. Our neighboring state tried to pass a law that the county courthouses would be responsible for turning illegals in when they came to them for the money to pay for their medical care. They will not be doing that out of fear that the illegals will then not get the medical care they need. Try going to Mexico and see how long they'll care for you and cater to you in this way.
I'm sure most of you have seen the laws that Mexico has for people who are not their citizens. We wouldn't even be allowed to live near the ocean because that's reserved ONLY for Mexicans. Yet, we give them California. It makes absolutely no sense at all and there's no argument that can make it right. They're here ILLEGALLY and need to go home.[}:)] They're a drain on our system and we have enough problems taking care of our own legal Americans.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Taking over a federal responsibility when there is no compelling reason to do so does not make sense.
hey listen bub, the feds aren't going to do anything. To say "let the feds take care of it" is a cop out. Get rid of the illegals and let them become someone else's problem. let whatever town they migrate to deal with the problem by "letting the feds deal with it"
Yeah...Someone get a rope! (sarcasm)
Are we prepared for the lawsuits Jammie referred to? (Use that Boeing money maybe?) How physically do we enforce these federal laws with local police? Seriously, politics and humanity aside, I don't see how a community, specifically ours, will take on this task without great exposure.
The minute we start becoming afraid of "exposure" we're cooked. The shameless lawsuits need to be met head on and dealt with; they are as bad (if not worse) than the illegal immigration problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
I'll be glad when the election is over and this red herring issue has been moved to the back burner.
I agree. Ru$h and his buds have the right wingers whipped into a frenzy over this just like they have over the whole "they're trying to take Christmas away from us!" bullcrap. You didn't see all this whining in the pre-Ru$h days even though the problem existed then and in proportionally the same degree. But the ditto-heads follow Ru$h and the right wing politicians follow the ditto-heads. Oh, well. It sells books and keeps the donations rolling in. And that, after all is what Ru$h and his buds are all about. It's free enterprise at its finest.
Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.
Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.
Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.
I see the Republicans as much of a problem here with this issue (if not more so) than the Democrats. After all, it was Ronald Reagan who granted amnesty in the first place. And George Bush has done no better with his plans for amnesty and refusal to close the borders. Honestly, I could care less about who brought the issue up, I would just like it resolved. Do you disagree that this is a problem? It appears the only problem you have is that the issue was brought up at all. I see a real problem here and I'm not a right winger.
Subject: Listen to a teacher
Here is an email that I received this morning. Sorry that I don't know how to delete the "bad" word in it.
"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration there are some things that you should be aware of:
I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socio economic and income levels.
Most of the schools you are hearing about÷South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc.-where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 Schools.
One hundred percent of the students in this school and other Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.
The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage
pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for baby-sitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center; half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them Putasä=whores, and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.
Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc., etc. Is it
any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?
To my conservative friends: I hope you're really proud of how George W. Bush has helped to sellout this country with his pro-illegal policy. I voted for him too, but on this issue he is a disaster.
To my bleeding-heart liberal friends who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the re al world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.
Higher insurance, Medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases, etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.
We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.
Does anyone in their right mind really think they will VOLUNTARILY LEAVE and return?
There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.
It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that REFUSES TO ASSMILATE, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.
If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."
quote:
Originally posted by Jammie
Subject: Listen to a teacher
Here is an email that I received this morning. Sorry that I don't know how to delete the "bad" word in it.
"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration there are some things that you should be aware of:
I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socio economic and income levels.
Most of the schools you are hearing about÷South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc.-where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 Schools.
One hundred percent of the students in this school and other Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.
The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage
pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for baby-sitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center; half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them Putasä=whores, and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.
Free medical, free education, free food, day care, etc., etc., etc. Is it
any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?
To my conservative friends: I hope you're really proud of how George W. Bush has helped to sellout this country with his pro-illegal policy. I voted for him too, but on this issue he is a disaster.
To my bleeding-heart liberal friends who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the re al world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.
Higher insurance, Medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new diseases, etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.
We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it.
Does anyone in their right mind really think they will VOLUNTARILY LEAVE and return?
There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute to our country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage and accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.
It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that REFUSES TO ASSMILATE, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.
If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."
Jammie, Now that I've gotten to know you a little better I feel that you would be completely comfortable in South Tulsa. And I want you to promise you'll do your own yard work.
Thank you, Hometown. I was actually beginning to wonder if Tulsa would be right for us.[:P] Yardwork? What's that?[:D]
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.
Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.
I see the Republicans as much of a problem here with this issue (if not more so) than the Democrats. After all, it was Ronald Reagan who granted amnesty in the first place. And George Bush has done no better with his plans for amnesty and refusal to close the borders. Honestly, I could care less about who brought the issue up, I would just like it resolved. Do you disagree that this is a problem? It appears the only problem you have is that the issue was brought up at all. I see a real problem here and I'm not a right winger.
I don't disagree that it's a problem, I just don't see it as the enormous problem that it's been blown up to be. I think there are more important problems that we need to be concerned about before we spend all that energy worrying about this one.
Stuff that's forwarded around in email isn't exactly a credible source for anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Jammie
If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know."
Statements like that are red flags. They usually mean, "This email is courtesy of the imagination of someone with too much time on his/her hands and an axe to grind. You should disregard all claims made herein as pure bullcrap. If you suspect something in this email is actually FACTUAL, you should feel free to verify it through a credible source before passing it on as truth."
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
Wrong Papaspot. I can't stand Rush; from what I understand, he's in total agreement with Bush, which is "Open them thar borders for that free enterprise!" Also, it was the hundreds of thousands of illegals and their supporters marching in the streets across the U.S. demanding they have the same rights as citizens that made me begin to scrutinize this problem more closely.
Wrong. The right wingers were all in a tiff long before anybody marched. And Ru$h isn't the only right wing propagandist stirring up the right wingers for self serving reasons.
I see the Republicans as much of a problem here with this issue (if not more so) than the Democrats. After all, it was Ronald Reagan who granted amnesty in the first place. And George Bush has done no better with his plans for amnesty and refusal to close the borders. Honestly, I could care less about who brought the issue up, I would just like it resolved. Do you disagree that this is a problem? It appears the only problem you have is that the issue was brought up at all. I see a real problem here and I'm not a right winger.
I don't disagree that it's a problem, I just don't see it as the enormous problem that it's been blown up to be. I think there are more important problems that we need to be concerned about before we spend all that energy worrying about this one.
I guess that's where you and I can agree to disagree Papaspot. I see it as a problem, maybe not the biggest, but a big problem nonetheless. I don't think anyone can deny that it is a growing problem and my frustration stems from politicians on both sides of the aisle using the issue to further their own selfish needs. Which political party uses it to their advantage the most doesn't really matter to me; they are both guilty and we are left holding the bag. Perhaps we here in Tulsa don't have the problem that cities in the border states have, but I do believe that we will begin to experience those problems soon. I'd like to see the problem addressed before it gets to that level. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
-Cheers
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
I guess that's where you and I can agree to disagree Papaspot. I see it as a problem, maybe not the biggest, but a big problem nonetheless. I don't think anyone can deny that it is a growing problem and my frustration stems from politicians on both sides of the aisle using the issue to further their own selfish needs. Which political party uses it to their advantage the most doesn't really matter to me; they are both guilty and we are left holding the bag. Perhaps we here in Tulsa don't have the problem that cities in the border states have, but I do believe that we will begin to experience those problems soon. I'd like to see the problem addressed before it gets to that level. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
-Cheers
I'm not sure the government sees it as a problem--at least not at the federal level. If they suddenly got serious about it, grocery prices would skyrocket as would inflation. That would make whomever is at the helm look bad and politics is all about not looking bad.
Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.
Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.
Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?
Certainly not initially. It would eventually result in some savings but not as much as many people think. The medical care that illegal aliens do receive is pretty much bare-bones bottom of the barrel. And in many cases, those costs are borne by private charity hospitals. In the long term, it would probably be a wash with regard to the cost of enforcement but how many politicians do you know that base their decisions on the long term? The runaway inflation that would result would also probably level off in the long run. But the percent of your paycheck that you spend on groceries would go up substantially and never come down.
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.
Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?
Certainly not initially. It would eventually result in some savings but not as much as many people think. The medical care that illegal aliens do receive is pretty much bare-bones bottom of the barrel. And in many cases, those costs are borne by private charity hospitals. In the long term, it would probably be a wash with regard to the cost of enforcement but how many politicians do you know that base their decisions on the long term? The runaway inflation that would result would also probably level off in the long run. But the percent of your paycheck that you spend on groceries would go up substantially and never come down.
I have a friend that lives in Dallas, and she says that Parkland Hospital's (a public hospital) usage by illegal aliens is stunning. Births, treatment, and all other costs are aborbed by the citizens of Dallas County and are huge (in the millions and millions). Regarding private hospitals; the costs are passed on to consumers like you and me. And btw, I know that you said Private Charity Hospitals.
There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
I have a friend that lives in Dallas, and she says that Parkland Hospital's (a public hospital) usage by illegal aliens is stunning. Births, treatment, and all other costs are aborbed by the citizens of Dallas County and are huge (in the millions and millions). Regarding private hospitals; the costs are passed on to consumers like you and me. And btw, I know that you said Private Charity Hospitals.
For the sake of argument, lets say that all you say here is true and accurate.
Eventually, the savings would probably (presumably) completely offset the additional cost of enforcement. In fact, we might even see a gain. That still isn't going to happen the first year and probably not the second or third. And you're right back where you started from, i.e. asking politicians to do something that they abhor: to plan for the long term.
And you'll still be spending a whole helluva lot more of your paycheck on groceries even ten years later.
quote:
There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.
It's possible that the other person WAS illegal. But if all you've got to go on is the fact that they didn't have insurance and didn't speak English, you're just speculating. There are a lot of people that are here LEGALLY that don't speak English and there are a lot of people running around that were BORN here that don't have insurance.
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
Quote
There are other issues, like none of the illegal aliens seeming to have car insurance. I can speak for that personally, as I've been in a car accident and the person who hit me did not speak english, did not have insurance, and was let off scott free. I don't know if that person was an illegal alien, but I would just about bet my house on it. There are many other issues as well,such as people who aren't citizens demanding to have the rights of citizens. Carrying signs saying "go back to Europe <insert derogatory racial term here>" and not wanting to assimilate into the general population. And the bottom line is that they are here illegally. I never will buy into your argument Papaspot, but I do respect your opinion.
It's possible that the other person WAS illegal. But if all you've got to go on is the fact that they didn't have insurance and didn't speak English, you're just speculating. There are a lot of people that are here LEGALLY that don't speak English and there are a lot of people running around that were BORN here that don't have insurance.
You are correct and I was only speculating on that person's status. I'll try and refrain from speculation any longer. Here is some information from the center for immigration studies that I find disturbing. It was found at the following website:
http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html
"The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.
This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.
I don't dispute for one second that it's a problem, Snopes and I agree that it's a costly one. The question is whether the solution will be more expensive than the problem. Think about this. For the last several years, every politician that has ran for everything from president to church secretary has promised to do something about the problem. Out of those millions of promises, how many politicians have done a single thing to actually stop or slow the rate of illegal immigration? That number is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero. Why is that? Why would not one single politician do something that might actually put them down in history as having actually done something about a problem? Why would not one politician do something that would guarantee them their office for as long as they cared to hold it? One POSSIBILITY is that they know that the cost of living in the U.S. would skyrocket. And since they would be the ones at the helm, they would get blamed. They would get blamed for the doubling or tripling of grocery prices. They would get blamed for the runaway inflation that would ensue, at least for the first two or three years.
IMO, the current system is just broke. The people that would benefit the U.S. economy by working cheap could not POSSIBLY qualify to immigrate here—even if they could afford the processing fees. The people that want to come here and CAN qualify to come here legally usually DO come here legally. The people that come here illegally do it because it's impossible for them to come here any other way.
I'm tired of them discussing it- it's time to take action.
John Sullivan, even though I consider him to be nothing more than a rubber-stamp toadie for the Republican party, has actually tried to do something about immigration problems in his district, though looking around, I don't see any results. One person can have vision, but if they are surrounded by apathy, those visions are worthless.
It's become such a huge problem because it's been allowed to go on un-checked for the last forty years and protecting our borders was never a high priority as evidenced by lacking manpower in our border patrols. Both Republicans and Democrats have let us down. Now the problem is so huge, any solution is overwhelming. There has been apathy at every level of government toward the problem.
I resent being pandered to by either party during this election cycle on the issue of immigration. All it is going to come down to is more empty promises which will go un-fulfilled after the elections. While politicians in Washington have been concerned about legislating morality issues like same-sex marriage and abortion and wasting time with witch-hunts on the sitting leader (I'm just as pissed about the Clinton impeachment as the undercurrent regarding Bush) this problem has kept growing by the year. This is a very real national security and economic issue.
Yes, I'm also pi$$ed that our foray into Iraq has taken the focus (and funding) off the border issue at home.
Both sides are too afraid of disenfranchising the voters of the legal Latino community to actually do anything about the problem. And, ostensibly, without any sort of good voter registration/verification program, it's possible for either party to recruit illegal aliens to vote in an election, and don't think it's not happening.
My solution is to close the borders, beef up patrols, give illegals 90 days to either get out or come forward. Those who refuse to either leave voluntarily or refuse to come forward and get legal, as they are discovered by local law enforcement, are detained and immediately deported- no questions asked. No rights for squatters- they are breaking our laws.
Those who come forward get a social security number, start working toward the requirements to become a legal citizen, file taxes, learn our language, enroll in a healthcare plan, abide by our laws, or face immediate deportation. If they have a child here prior to completing citizenship requirements, that child is not granted citizenship until their parent(s) have completed all requirements. And they are to pay for every nickel it costs them to become a legal U.S. Citizen- no subsidies on this one.
It's not that difficult to enforce if the feds would step up to back up local law enforcement. The problem that has been explained to me by several of my friends who are cops is that there has become apathy on the level of local law enforcement because it has become such a revolving door of illegal immigrants. They send one guy back home and he's back three weeks later with two of his friends from the old country. Closing the borders and putting more emphasis on border security would keep this from happening.
I'm very, very pi$$ed this problem has been allowed to go on unabated for so many years. It is a huge burden on tax payers and it multiplies every year. The hand-outs keep getting better and there's too much incentive for illegals to keep coming in. I'm sick and tired of America being a dumping ground for Mexico's undesireables and under-employed.
As to the comment elsewhere on this thread about Parkland in Dallas. There are approximately 8,000 babies born a year, just in that hospital, to undocumented aliens and it is breaking them. Parkland is not a private charity hospital. They come here because they can get better health care while here, don't have to pay for it and their child can now claim dual citizenship. We get stuck with the bill and the child becomes a U.S. citizen all because his mother did nothing more than climb a fence.
I'm well aware that America was built mostly by immigrants, but the traditional method by which our ancestors immigrated was through legal channels, and they were willing to pay their own way and contribute back to the system that makes healtcare, roads, and police protection possible.
The problem has to be fixed or we'll find ourselves in a deeper mess come ten or twenty years down the road. Too many public funds are being used to pay for this and the cost of living is going up drastically already. The article I pointed out already documents that the cost of supporting this massive influx far outweigh the benefits and that trend will only continue and worsen. Property taxes, medical premiums, insurance, they are all going up to support bilingual education, massive increases in the number of students in our schools, prosecution of crime, etc. We can't put our heads in the sand and say that it's too late.
I don't understand why people complain when cities (such as the one in Pennsylvania and others) try and step up to the plate and enforce laws that will dissuade companies from hiring illegal immigrants or landlords from renting to illegals. Saying that there's a problem, but we can't fix it is a defeatest attitude to which I cannot subscribe. We say there's a problem, but when a city or county tries to suggest a fix, such as enforcing the laws, they are taken to court by the ACLU, which is one of the most absurd and crazy things I've ever heard. Sure, there are other problems that this country needs to address, but this one should be at or near the top of the list.
BTW, I just read your post Conan. Excellent points, all of them.
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
The article I pointed out already documents that the cost of supporting this massive influx far outweigh the benefits and that trend will only continue and worsen.
Unless you posted something I missed, no you didn't. The link you posted only addressed costs.
quote:
Saying that there's a problem, but we can't fix it is a defeatest attitude to which I cannot subscribe.
You might not be talking about me but if you are, I never said that it couldn't be fixed.
quote:
We say there's a problem, but when a city or county tries to suggest a fix, such as enforcing the laws, they are taken to court by the ACLU, which is one of the most absurd and crazy things I've ever heard. Sure, there are other problems that this country needs to address, but this one should be at or near the top of the list.
Everybody has their own list. You should say that it's near the top of YOUR list. Well, I think it would be more accurate to say that I don't see it as a PRESSING problem. A lot of people want to look only at the direct cost and they don't want to take into consideration any other factors or questions. Would the money that is saved by stopping this be greater than the money that's lost to higher grocery prices? (And anyone who thinks that groceries wouldn't go up substantially doesn't know diddlysquat about agricultural economics.) I've yet to see a study that compares these factors...they all only look at the direct COSTS. Some people want to build another Berlin Wall along the southern border. How much would it cost? Would it really do the job? What about the northern (and eastern and western) border? What about the ones that are already here? Would they round them up and ship them all back to where they came from? Anybody got any idea how much THAT would cost?
What I'd REALLY like to see is discussion of some of these questions instead of just 'something has to be done'. If we're really serious about solving the problem, we'd be wise to take a careful look at whether the cost of the solution would be more than the cost of the problem. The solution(s) to this problem needs to be rationally based on economics and security and not on emotion (which, in SOME cases is where I believe it to be based).
Spot,
IMO, It's pressing because we have huge unprecidented and previously un-budgeted costs associated with disaster recovery, national security, etc. that have popped up in the last five years we didn't have before, and money to support illegal immigrants taking advantage of our system is draining off more and more money with each new immigrant who slips across the border to either come to work or to have an American-born child, or to just squat.
Here's the problem: many of the illegal immigrants take advantage of programs which were designed to help legal American-born citizens. The over-burden they put on the system means that the people who have a legal right to it, and for whom these systems were originally intended to benefit, get less service and benefits.
We have made it too easy and too attractive to illegals to keep them out. Look at quality of healthcare and education they can have- all at no charge! And if they are really bad, they can stay in a far better prison here than they would be shoved into back home.
Taking a long look at it, I don't think anyone, except the most extreme xenophobes want all the immigrants run out. There is no doubt they are an important part of the workforce here in America. I hate the term "amnesty program" but that's basically what we would have to have to keep from crippling agriculture, construction, and many other industries if we had a massive round-up and cast them all out.
An amnesty program, IMO should not be government-funded, and there should be stipulations with definitive deadlines. Miss a deadline and you are sent back with no second chance. Figure out what the administrative cost is to put them on the SS rolls and any other costs associated with citizenship and make them pay every last penny- one day late and you are out of here. You'd be able to separate real quick who is here for a truly better life and who is here to take advantage of our generosity. Send the free-loaders back home.
The problem is, they come in, do not enroll in employer-sponsored benefit programs like health insurance or retirement, many don't take the same financial responsibilities as I do- like buying auto liability insurance and filing my taxes every year, filing legitimate W-4's with the appropriate amount of withholding (they still pay some taxes via payroll deduction by legit employers who aren't paying under the table cash).
Many will claim the most deductions they can on their W-4 so they can under-withhold and send money back home to support other non-citizens who don't even live with them here in the states. This further shorts the government on revenue, that under our tax system, the government is entitled to.
There are native-born Americans who do the same thing, but nowhere is it documented to be on the same scale as the problem with illegals. There is certainly still a large welfare problem that needs to be better addressed. And no, I don't ascribe to the opinion that these illegals have stolen all the jobs that people on welfare would have otherwise taken.
We need to stop a lot of the hand-outs that make illegal immigration attractive and that allow a certain part of our native population to be lazy.
One of the reason the illegals operate like this is to stay as much as possible under the radar scope so they aren't sent back home. Make them legal and many would opt into making the same contributions to our system and society as you do. The ones that refuse to- send them home and don't let them back in.
What happens is they withdraw more from the system, as the article Snope provided pointed out, than they put in by using our health care, schools, and other government benefits. This is all well-documented by many sources.
Look at it this way, if California is spending $3 billion a year to provide healthcare, education, and law enforcement to illegal immigrants, that is $3 billion less they can spend on roads, more law enforcement for legal citizens, border patrols, and better schools for kids who were born into English-speaking families.
Granted, they consume and spend money that part of is absorbed into sales tax revenue and corporate taxes.
However, so do many legal citizens who also provide non-governmental means to pay for their health care, pay their fair share of state and federal income and property taxes, and who withdraw less from the system than they put in.
Dang, Conan! I'm gonna have to read this one when I get home.
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Dang, Conan! I'm gonna have to read this one when I get home.
You ought to see me when I actually get passionate about something! [:P][;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Dang, Conan! I'm gonna have to read this one when I get home.
You ought to see me when I actually get passionate about something! [:P][;)]
[}:)]
You may be the only one here that can get even more wordy than ME.
Careful Spot, people might think we are getting along too well. [}:)]
Something came to mind when I stopped to catch my breath and get a soda:
My wife and I honeymooned in the British Virgin Islands last November. (Second marriage...yeah I'm a slow learner. Nah, she's a great gal!)
At any rate, I asked our cab driver when we were heading back to the airport at the end of our stay why the crime rate was so low in the BVI's yet reputed to be so high on St. Thomas USVI only ten miles away and very high on Puerto Rico only 60 miles away.
The reason he gave was that it's very hard to get on the government dole under the British Crown. You want healthcare? Pay cash or show proof of citizenship. You want a free public defender? Not unless you got proof of citizenship. You want to move there? Not unless you can prove beyond doubt that you can support yourself. You want a job? Not unless you have a government-issued visa. You want to employ someone? Not unless they are a citizen or have a valid work visa. Unemployment stays low because there are enough jobs to go around, and you have to really prove you can't work to get on the dole. Therefore the crime rate is very low.
You can build a banana boat and float ashore on any of the islands and remain anonymous for awhile. But you won't be able to get any sort of sustainable employment and if you get sick or injured you will stay sick.
There's no incentive to sneak into a country that provides benefits and jobs exclusively to it's citizens or people who have applied for visas through normal legal channels.
Long ago, if we would have enforced penalties on employers for hiring un-documented workers, turned away illegals at our hospitals and schools, refuse police protection (as Mexican's frequently do to Americans) there wouldn't have been any incentive for people to come across the borders. We need to quit being so concerned about the rights of illegal immigrants to the point that we wind up impinging upon the rights and priveleges of people who have a native-born or legally-immigrated right to them.
To that end, under the amnesty program I envision, I think the gov't should hold the employers accountable to make their workers come forward and make the company share in the cost with the immigrant of making them legal. Sure there's enforcement cost to it, but it would bring in more tax revenue and reduce the run-away costs we now have associated with the hand-outs they come here for in the first place.
Honestly, I don't see that enforcement or company participation doubling my grocery bill, or causing construction costs to double. I realize it might raise the cost for some things, but if it lowers the amount of tax-supported benefits for people who aren't paying the proper amount of taxes, it might cause my taxes to decrease by a like amount.
Spot, one more thing for your reading at home tonight and I promise I'll quit for the day-
As far as immigration incentives, it's pretty obvious why the flow is north over the Mexican border instead of south:
For Americans in Mexico:
No protection by or *from* the police, no free healthcare, you cannot get a job, you cannot own land, not to mention no one knows what sanitary water and sewer systems are. IOW, the Mexican Gov't (for that matter most other countries) does not allow the same rights to foreigners as we do, and I think it would be a good thing if we reciprocated in like manner.
Remove the handsome incentives, and the in-flow will stop. We need to stop being the charity hand-basket to the rest of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Careful Spot, people might think we are getting along too well. [}:)]
It's my objective to keep 'em guessing. (http://www.myoklahomalife.net/wp-images/smileys/laugh.gif)
But seriously, folks...I read your posts (yep--every word. I wanna gold star!) and I don't find one single thing that I disagree with except your proposed solution. So really, there's nothing for me to say in reply except to reiterate my main two points:
1. ALL the costs and benefits of serious enforcement should be carefully considered before we go wading in and kicking donkey. (Can I still say "donkey" without getting the thread locked?) Will the savings be enough to cover the cost of vigorous enforcement plus the drastic increases in prices?
Geez. Now I can't remember what my second point was. Think I'll just go eat some ice cream.
Spot, hope your ice cream was good.[:P] It'd be hard to estimate what the cost of acting vs. the cost of keeping on giving would be. We probably would come out short at the beginning, but we can't let it continue. They've already taken too much from the LEGAL Americans who need it. Or should I say that we've "GIVEN" them too much already.[}:)] They're ILLEGAL, plain and simple. They either need to go through the legal process to be here or stay in their own country. Maybe they could put a bit of effort into improving their own surroundings????[:O] Oh yea, I guess I said I don't participate in much political banter, didn't I???
quote:
Originally posted by Jammie
Spot, hope your ice cream was good.[:P]
It was WONDERFUL, thank you!
quote:
It'd be hard to estimate what the cost of acting vs. the cost of keeping on giving would be. We probably would come out short at the beginning, but we can't let it continue.
Well, I agree and I'm not saying we shouldn't do something. I'm just saying we should examine all the factors very carefully (as much as is possible) and not just rush in and start doing something for the sake of doing something. The solution should be well thought out and not based on emotion.
quote:
They've already taken too much from the LEGAL Americans who need it. Or should I say that we've "GIVEN" them too much already.[}:)]
Well, you're right again, we HAVE given them a lot. But it isn't like they haven't given US something. How much do you pay for a head of broccoli? A pound onions? Does it seem like a LOT? Well, I promise you, you ain't seen NOTHIN' yet. They're putting cheap food on your table. If they suddenly disappeared, what would happen? I'll tell ya what would happen. A LOT of food crops would wind up getting plowed under like a bunch of spinach because there'll be no one to harvest them. A few years ago, unemployment in the U.S. was almost zero. Everybody that wanted a job had one. And they were still harvesting our crops. You think you're gonna fill that many seasonal positions with Americans? Certainly not at minimum wage (which is three times more than the illegals get paid).
quote:
They're ILLEGAL, plain and simple. They either need to go through the legal process to be here or stay in their own country.
OH! That was my second point. Thanks!
Only a tiny FRACTION of the people who come here illegally could POSSIBLY qualify to come here legally.
quote:
Maybe they could put a bit of effort into improving their own surroundings????[:O]
Well, that's real easy to SAY... But I expect that many of the people who say it have never even visited a third world country--let alone lived there long enough to realize that you don't just wake up one morning and decide to change conditions that have existed for centuries.
quote:
Oh yea, I guess I said I don't participate in much political banter, didn't I???
Never heard ya say it so you're off the hook with me, at least. [}:)]
I have a couple of last things to add and then I intend¹ to leave it alone.
Any solution should be flexible enough to allow for humanitarian concerns, ESPECIALLY for children. Children should NEVER be made to suffer, I don't care WHAT the status of their parents is.
And that brings me to my final¹ comment on the topic. Earlier, someone mentioned women sneaking in from Mexico to have their babies so the babies would be U.S. citizens. If you lived in a third world country where poverty and suffering was the rule, the education system was second or third rate and health care almost nonexistent for your class--and you had the opportunity just by sneaking across a border to give your child a bright future with decent education, health care, etc., would YOU do it? You better bet your donkey I'D do it in a HEARTBEAT. And I think any other parent here who will be HONEST will say the same thing.
¹As always, I reserve the right to change my mind.
And eat your HEART out, Conan! That's 4,356 words to your 4,309!
Candy-donkey. [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
And eat your HEART out, Conan! That's 4,356 words to your 4,309!
Candy-donkey. [}:)]
Dammitdammitsonofabitch! You beat me! [}:)]
No doubt there needs to be a study on how to do it. I don't think though if we had a "day of reckoning" we'd hear "a great sucking sound" of all the immigrant workers going back to Mexico (apologies to Ross Perot). Let's get started on the study and get the politicians to do something instead of using this as another form of electioneering. I want to see action, and I want to see action now.
I believe many of the illegals remain illegal due to ignorance of our legal immigration channels. They are afraid to come forward out of fear of being deported. Give them a specific window of time to become legal without fear.
I don't think anyone would disagree with your point that if you had a child, you'd want the best healthcare and education. However, we need to take away the incentive for parents to do this, unless the Mexican government is willing to pick up the tab. Otherwise, provide those services only to those who are here legally.
Just because someone is born here to a mother who doesn't respect our culture or laws, doesn't make them legal in my books, because they won't be brought up to respect our culture, language, and laws. I don't believe picking up the tab for healthcare and education for every third world immigrant should be incumbent on legitimate American tax payers.
As far as what happens to the children of illegals we'd boot out for non-compliance, sorry to sound hard-hearted, but if the parents weren't willing to get legal, when the opportunity presents itself, that's on the parents of those kids, not our government and not my conscience.
Unless everyone has forgotten, until the early 1900's churches were about charity and governments were about governing. Now it seems to be reversed. If it bothers people what would happen to these kids, they can tell their church to start building orphanages.
Real simple summary-
1)Lock down the Mexican border.
2)Give those already here a chance to comply.
3)Kick out the ones who don't.
FWIW- Congress did pass a bill a couple of days ago granting about a billion to build 700 miles of fence. My apathy toward congress right now tells me it will never come to pass after the November election.
Word count??? [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
quote:
Originally posted by snopes
quote:
Originally posted by papaspot
Another obstacle to taking enforcement beyond the level of rhetoric is the cost. Any kind of serious enforcement would require a LOT of money. Many of the people (at least in my view) who feel that this is a major problem also complain about high taxes. I have to wonder if they're willing to pay HIGHER taxes to cover the cost of enforcement.
Medical costs, and a host of other factors have to be considered as well, don't you think?
Certainly not initially. It would eventually result in some savings but not as much as many people think. The medical care that illegal aliens do receive is pretty much bare-bones bottom of the barrel. And in many cases, those costs are borne by private charity hospitals. In the long term, it would probably be a wash with regard to the cost of enforcement but how many politicians do you know that base their decisions on the long term? The runaway inflation that would result would also probably level off in the long run. But the percent of your paycheck that you spend on groceries would go up substantially and never come down.
Statements like this remind me of the tired mantra of those who oppose increasing the minimum wage, saying it will hurt the economy when the fact of the matter is it happened not once, but twice during the Clinton years and we had arguably one of the best economies we've ever had-for all Americans, not just the wealthy. I don't buy this argument opposing minimum wage increases and I sure don't buy this argument in favor of illegal immigration either.
BTW, judging by the failures of other countries who have similar "Guestworker" programs, the outcome seems to be a disenfranchised, second class immigrant citizen communities, that do not assimilate, and become fractured communities, divided from the rest of the society. If there is any truth to the saying united we stand, divided we fall, then a guestworker program potentially poses dire consequences.
We currently have legal immigrant "guestworkers", what about the complete disregard for these honest hardworking immigrants who follow the rules? What about the honest employers that hire legal immigrants and pay all the associated costs(worker's compensation, unemployment, etc.) that illegal employers do not by exploiting loopholes and lax enforcement of labor/immigration laws through worker misclassification? It has been estimated that places honest employers at as much as a 35% competitve disadvantage for doing the right thing by obeying the law and playing by the rules. Please explain why we should reward criminal businesses and border jumpers with amnesty, open borders, and a wage slave program for their criminal misconduct?
Conan, I think we pretty much agree on the basics and we'll never agree on the details.
Double A, comparing the effect of suddenly removing twelve to fifteen million workers from the work force--to raising the minimum wage is pure apples and oranges. Raising the minimum wage has never been shown to hurt the economy and, as you pointed out seems to help it. Common sense tells you that removing twelve to fifteen million workers (okay, let's reduce that to four million to account for non-working children) is gonna have a pretty marked effect on the economy. Expecting four million Americans or legal immigrants to suddenly come forward and do the work for minimum wage (which is almost three times the former labor cost) is pretty unrealistic. The fact that you're NOT gonna get that many people to do the work is gonna further compound the problem because the supply is gonna shrink to a fraction of what it currently is.
http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=217091#217091
You guys should check this out what they are doing to encourage Tulsa to pass an immigration law.
Great to see it, but it won't be enforced. As mentioned on the general discussion thread already this a.m. all they have to do is show up with good forged INS and SSI cards. Get rid of the forgers, take away the hand-outs, and you will get rid of a lot of the illegals.
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=112058
Oologah's Council Passes Ordinance Aimed At Illegal Immigrants
KOTV - 10/3/2006 6:11 AM - Updated 10/3/2006 7:42 AM
A Rogers County town is taking a stand against illegal immigration.
The Oologah town council has passed an ordinance making it illegal for employers to hire illegal immigrants inside the Oologah city limits.
The ordinance was introduced by the mayor. Jerry Holland says Oologah will enforce the law he says the feds have failed to enforce. Oologah mayor Jerry Holland: "They're spineless. They've done nothing about it. It all has to do with our entire immigration policy and something needs to be done."
Contractors we spoke with say it would really help small businesses if cities like Tulsa cracked-down on employers who hire illegal immigrants.
Oologah's ordinance takes effect in 30 days.
Inola, also in Rogers County, is also considering an immigration mandate.
That's easy to do when there are very few people to piss off with such an ordinance.
Oologah and Inola seem to be as much a white-bread community as you can have. Of the businesses I've patronized in Oologah since I've had my boat at Red Bud Marina, I don't recall even seeing a foreigner as a customer at any business in the town.
I used to date a gal that lived in Inola, and I don't recall many, if any foreigners there either.
The only enterprises I can picture that might hire immigrant workers in either town would be farmers/ranchers or construction companies based out of Inola or Oologah. This would put any construction company based in either town at a competitive disadvantage in bidding on contracts in other areas where a blind eye is turned to employing illegal immigrants.
Hopefully, the day is coming that larger cities and the state are going to do something about it.
So, in other words, seeing an illegal immigrant being hired in Oologah city limits is about as likely as seeing a polar bear.
What a brave ordinance.
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
So, in other words, seeing an illegal immigrant being hired in Oologah city limits is about as likely as seeing a polar bear.
What a brave ordinance.
Yep, that's pretty much the case.