After visiting several of our great cities in our nation, I'm convinced that Tulsa needs a plaza area in downtown Tulsa. A DESTINATION of quality restaraunts and shopping, with a movie theatre. I envision an area that is pedestrian friendly that incorporates some fountains and art amongst the area. I also would like to have a nice park area adjacent to this for those that just want to be outside in downtown Tulsa. I believe we should encourage people to come downtown and spend time. The way to do that is to give them something to do. A plaza area incorporates indoors with oudoors and gives the best of both worlds. Here's some pictures of Kansas City's plaza area...
http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/North_America/United_States_of_America/Missouri/Kansas_City-816877/Things_To_Do-Kansas_City-Country_Club_Plaza-BR-1.html
Thoughts?
First off, the Plaza, while great, is not in downtown Kansas City. It's very like Utica if Brookside was next door.
Well if the east village were ever built, it might fit into this idea.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
First off, the Plaza, while great, is not in downtown Kansas City. It's very like Utica if Brookside was next door.
I know it's SOUTH of downtown K.C. The point is, it's a nice area-that's why I referenced it.
Many downtowns have musuems and restauraunts and PLAZA areas. Downtown Tulsa is struggling to get people to come downtown and should be seeking tenants that bring people there. The arena, while it's a great idea, could use some help.
Most sports and concert venues being built today spring up WITH retail shopping, restaraunts, musuems, etc. at the same time. I'm not seeing that with Tulsa. What are we waiting for?
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
What are we waiting for?
We? Jump on in -- who's stopping you?
(I'm waiting for my money to dry.)
(http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/ites/0501/ijee/money.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
What are we waiting for?
We? Jump on in -- who's stopping you?
(I'm waiting for my money to dry.)
(http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/ites/0501/ijee/money.jpg)
The Tulsa county voters agreed to more than $500 MILLION in NEW TAXES in 2003.
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
The Tulsa county voters agreed to more than $500 MILLION in NEW TAXES in 2003.
So, what are you saying? We should use that money to open (public?) retaurants and shops, instead of the projects it was intended for?
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
The Tulsa county voters agreed to more than $500 MILLION in NEW TAXES in 2003.
So, what are you saying? We should use that money to open (public?) retaurants and shops, instead of the projects it was intended for?
I believe the city should work with a developer. Some of the land, art and fountains would be PUBLIC property. I'm not suggesting the city pay for the project, but they should be involved to assure that we have a nice pedestrain friendly destination adjacent the arena. The city shouldn't leave it up to chance on whether or not the arena will or won't succeed. We should do everything we can to make assurances that this is money well spent.
I consider it PROTECTING our $200 million investment by beautifying the surrounding area and working with a developer who has the same vision.
Wasn't Utica Square developed as Tulsa's answer to KC's Plaza?
We have a public plaza downtown, with the central library and convention center/arena right on it.
We have a secondary plaza -- the "Green" at 3rd & Boston, with a nice hotel, green space, and our performing arts center on it.
Both are lonely places to be.
So I would disagree about the plaza part. However, I couldn't agree more that we need shops, restaurants, and movie theaters downtown. It's not the plaza, it's the stuff to do on the plaza that gets people to visit.
Those may be lonely places because like you said(and I agree) there needs to be things to do once you get there. That being said, I think the greenbelts a very important transition to the the retail area. Here's a picture of something that gives you an idea of what I'm talking about...
http://www.thejamescenter.com/images/pictures/art/plaza_design_small.jpg
Add a little bit of this and you get the idea...
http://www.atkielski.com/inlink.php?/PhotoGallery/Paris/General/PlaceConcordeLarge.html
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
Those may be lonely places because like you said(and I agree) there needs to be things to do once you get there. That being said, I think the greenbelts a very important transition to the the retail area. Here's a picture of something that gives you an idea of what I'm talking about...
http://www.thejamescenter.com/images/pictures/art/plaza_design_small.jpg
That is the spitting image of the Green at 3rd and Boston. Almost IDENTICAL.
Portland's Park Blocks are the best example of what you're talking about that I've seen. They're several linear blocks of parkland, intersected by pedestrian-friendly streets, and completely surrounded by restaurants, shops, galleries, theaters, etc.
(http://www.friendsoftrees.org/images/pdx1878.jpg)
Park Blocks ca. 1878
(http://www.friendsoftrees.org/images/parkblocks.jpg)
Park Blocks today
The thing is, these were dedicated in the late 1800s. These kinds of great public spaces can't be created overnight. They have to evolve, much like Utica Square, which is, after all, 50 years old.
The best opportunity for this kind of environment downtown will be the new Oil Capital Centennial Park, for which funding is in-hand (from several public and private sources), and which is going to be created on what is now a surface parking lot at 6th & Main/Boston. This will link to Bartlett Square along pedestrian-friendly Main Street and to William's Green along pedestrian-friendly Boston Ave.
It's also located in the middle of Kanbar & Kaufman's planned "Mayo Place," or whatever they're calling their mixed-use concept. These developments will build on the best of what's already there, not obliterate everything to try to force a new mega-development.
I love the William's Center Green, it's very well done, Tulsa's good side version of a urban plaza, on the other side is The Place One Tower's plaza, it's really, really awful, and then the civic center plaza, even worse.
I have commented on something like this before. I think we have a great opportunity to have an incredible downtown, central square or plaza. Most of the cities I visit have a large central plaza facing a Cathedral. It just so happens that Tulsa has a Cathedral that rivals many that you will find in comprable cities in the US. Aaaand it also just so happens that we have a lot of empty space in front of it. No need to tear down or move anything. The only concern would be building some parking for the church and businesses, restraunts etc. around the plaza. The parking garages themselves could have businesses on the first floors or on the side facing the plaza.
The problem with many of the so called plazas and squares that we do have downtown are 2fold. One they dont have any businesses or attractions to visit. Especially like cafes or shops that have seating outside. Second none of them have a view of any sort. They are depressingly devoid of any beauty or character. If you were to build a plaza around the area facing the cathedral in Tulsa you would instantly have a great view of of a beautiful church and the view to the north of downtown from that area is stunning, especially at night. The whole area could be a tourist destination where visitors can tour the nearby churches and then shop and eat etc.
To get it started I suggest the city make a deal with the church to use their parking lot to add a central concourse through it with a fountain in the center strip of greenspace on either side, you could even still have a row of parking on either side of this. You could add a parking garage just to the North for downtown and the church on sunday. Which is I believe where the city is thinking of adding a parking garage anyway. So having it look nice with shops and restraunt space below would be a good start right there.
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6162/centralplazarz8.jpg)
Napkin scribble, use your imagination lol.
And if your imagination is as good as mine[:P] you will perhaps see something like this. Then imagine our incredible skyscrapers just to the right of each of these and you will have an idea of what we are fortunate enough to be able to have if we but only decide to do it.
(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9350/centralsquare4dq2.jpg)
or this.
(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6691/centralsquare6jl9.jpg)
What a beautiful place we could have in our downtown to eat, relax enjoy people watching, shop and have as a tourist destination. We have the groundwork for it. It could be done.
Artist, that's a lovely vision. If done right, it could stretch toward TCC as well.
If Holy Family would be willing to give up their surface parking lot (they tore down some great-looking, fully-occupied, old apartments to make that parking lot) in exchange for free parking in the garage on Sundays, then let's play ball.
Are we talking Holy Family or Boston Ave Methodist?
How about both, and First Presbyterian? The Church District?
I dig where this thread is heading... really interesting ideas. It makes me think of Jackson Square in New Orleans or maybe Boston Commons.
Designate an area north of the IDL up to 7th from Cheyenne to Cincinnati as The Church District, and rename Cincinnati downtown as Church Street to tie in Trinity and First Baptist.
A lot of great church buildings and a lot of bad surface parking that could be so much more.
just fyi, we already refer to the area of 10th & Boulder as "Cathedral Square". There is a tiny little park there, and it is a pretty little place. But that's not to say the concept of having attractive greenspace tucked in with the beautiful old churches all the way from 10th up to 8th.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
Are we talking Holy Family or Boston Ave Methodist?
How about both, and First Presbyterian? The Church District?
Holy Family, it is the only Cathedral in the region. The other churches or places of worship may be in the Cathedral style but to "officially" be a Cathedral a church must have the Cathedra or Bishops Chair. Just a bit of info [:)]
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9549/highaltartrinitycathedralwatermarkhz5.jpg)
There is certainly plenty of room to build here. I kind of like calling it "Cathedral Square"
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/temp/cathedral%20park.bmp)
(http://www.riverviewtulsa.org/temp/cathedral%20park1.bmp)
I cannot see a problem with the parking garges allowing use by the general public in the evening and on weekends. The Philtower parking garage is open on Sundays for churchgoers to use already. As I walk around downtown in the evenings and on weekends virtually all of the parking garages are empty.... parking downtown should be a non-issue except in the 7 am to 5 pm/ Mon-Fri timeframe.
Ironically enough, DTU has a plan that was never realized called "cathedral square" that involved housing, retail, and greenspaces in the same place you're talking about.
Why is it that Tulsa seems to have such problems maintaining fountains? The fountain at 18th & Boulder now contains plants; the main mall fountain of course is gone (and the small one replacing it is apparently a car magnet); I cannot remember the last time the fountain by the library had water in it; Swan Lake is still struggling to replace theirs.
I would love to see a fountain/green space at Cathedral square. Of course, I think replacing a surface lot was just about anything is an improvement. However, nothing spells desertion (ie, don't go there) more than an empty fountain, IMO. I would rather see nothing there than a fountain turned off.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
Why is it that Tulsa seems to have such problems maintaining fountains? The fountain at 18th & Boulder now contains plants; the main mall fountain of course is gone (and the small one replacing it is apparently a car magnet); I cannot remember the last time the fountain by the library had water in it; Swan Lake is still struggling to replace theirs.
I've wondered if I was the only one who had noticed that. To add to the list, I think there is/was a large fountain in the middle of the city hall plaza/concrete slab that hasn't had water in it for ten years or more. The fountains in the below-surface area outside of First Place Tower are off a good deal and even when they are on, they don't look so hot because they are clogged up with lime deposits. Even the water features at Williams Center Green seem to be off or dry fairly often. Does the little fountain at Cathedral Square work?
The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.
They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.
I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.
They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.
I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?
Just drove by the Cathedral Square fountain and confirmed what I had thought. I couldn't tell from the street whether there is water in it, but it definitely was not operating.
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
Why is it that Tulsa seems to have such problems maintaining fountains? The fountain at 18th & Boulder now contains plants; the main mall fountain of course is gone (and the small one replacing it is apparently a car magnet); I cannot remember the last time the fountain by the library had water in it; Swan Lake is still struggling to replace theirs.
I've wondered if I was the only one who had noticed that. To add to the list, I think there is/was a large fountain in the middle of the city hall plaza/concrete slab that hasn't had water in it for ten years or more. The fountains in the below-surface area outside of First Place Tower are off a good deal and even when they are on, they don't look so hot because they are clogged up with lime deposits. Even the water features at Williams Center Green seem to be off or dry fairly often. Does the little fountain at Cathedral Square work?
They also turned the fountain beside the SPirit Bank building at 18th and Boston into a
planter.
Must be freeze/thaw thing. I thought fountains were fairly simple in their operation. Maybe I'm wrong. I remember at OSU, every winter they'd shut the library fountain down, drain it, etc., so it was ugly and dry about half the year.
At least the river fountain still works twice a day.
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.
They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.
I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?
Just drove by the Cathedral Square fountain and confirmed what I had thought. I couldn't tell from the street whether there is water in it, but it definitely was not operating.
That's disappointing. Maybe they don't run it during the day to conserve water? Who knows...
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.
They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.
I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?
I can only guess its that they dont put aside money for it. KC is the City of Fountains so cant be the freeze-thaw cycle. Either that or they are just too danged lazy and dont care.
I have also heard that they dont fund the proper care and number of cleanings for the bronzes either. The city needs to have a budget set aside for its art and fountains to be cared for properly. Perhaps even an endowment started to pay for someone to do nothing but care for those things like Philbrook now has to pay for permanent garden staff. You raise the money once and dont have to worry about it being a tax or funding it every year.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Ironically enough, DTU has a plan that was never realized called "cathedral square" that involved housing, retail, and greenspaces in the same place you're talking about.
I dont understand these "plans" that we have laying around? Do they have some incentives to make this plan happen? Was there some zoning put in place so that any development that went in the area had to follow this plans guidelines? Were ANY steps taken to promote this plan coming into being?
I often wonder about just how many plans this city, and its citizens, have paid for and spent time on, then put on a shelf to gather dust untill forgotten about or decided that new plans are now needed? Only to have the new plan have no teeth as well, then never happen, on and on. River Plans, Eastland Plans, Pearl District Plan,etc. etc. Are they all just paper tigers?
I would really like to see this Cathedral Square Plan. Any ideas on how and where to go to find out about it?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
Ironically enough, DTU has a plan that was never realized called "cathedral square" that involved housing, retail, and greenspaces in the same place you're talking about.
I dont understand these "plans" that we have laying around? Do they have some incentives to make this plan happen? Was there some zoning put in place so that any development that went in the area had to follow this plans guidelines? Were ANY steps taken to promote this plan coming into being?
I often wonder about just how many plans this city, and its citizens, have paid for and spent time on, then put on a shelf to gather dust untill forgotten about or decided that new plans are now needed? Only to have the new plan have no teeth as well, then never happen, on and on. River Plans, Eastland Plans, Pearl District Plan,etc. etc. Are they all just paper tigers?
I would really like to see this Cathedral Square Plan. Any ideas on how and where to go to find out about it?
It's in an old DTU booklet I have. I'll dig around and see if I can find it. The original boston avenue plan is in it too.
Speaking of DTU, do they ever update their website? The development page still has a reference to DESCO in the East Village. There is no mention of Mayo Place, the new condos or any of the changes that have occurred in the last year.
You don't have to have a fountain to have an interesting plaza. Sometimes the topography of a place can be just as interesting:
(http://static.flickr.com/2/3312440_2d8424ec32.jpg)
(http://static.flickr.com/54/188879405_77861e453e.jpg)
(http://static.flickr.com/1/831349_8d366bfb51.jpg?v=0)
That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]
Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc. And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.
The Baby Jesus would enjoy it. Really.
Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square (//%22http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=19%22)
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]
Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc. And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.
The Baby Jesus would enjoy it. Really.
Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square (//%22http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=19%22)
It is used a lot because of the incredible job of programming they do, but it is still uglier than homemade soup. It ain't no Bryant Park (//%22http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=26%22).
Mmmmm. Homemade soup . . . .
(http://www.shipbrook.com/karen/blog/images/homer82.gif)
I'd say location is as big a factor as programming, but I agree. They have been known to grow a tree or two in Oregon. Maybe they should have put a little of that experience to use.
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
quote:
Originally posted by Kiah
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]
Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc. And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.
The Baby Jesus would enjoy it. Really.
Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square (//%22http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=19%22)
It is used a lot because of the incredible job of programming they do, but it is still uglier than homemade soup. It ain't no Bryant Park (//%22http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=26%22).
Bryant Park is a great public space and venue however at one point not too long ago it was actually a terrible public space, actually dangerous! Thanks to the Bryant Park Association, the City, and...programming that Park has once again become a great public space.
Now, Copley Square in Boston, that's a great public space!! I'll try and figure out how to post pictures soon.
UUUUGGGH! AJ, you're killing me.
To much hardscape? No Trees downtown? Make up your mind, man!
Regardless of your opinion of the aesthetics of Pioneer Square, I used it as an example because it is one of the most successful parking lot reclaimations I know of.
There is great programming there, no doubt. But that is only a fraction of the reason it is successful. Go there at lunch, or anytime during a non-rainy day, and you will find the plaza packed with people, programming or not. Why? Because it is located in a convienient place for people who are working, shopping, or visiting, for one. Because there are tons of places to sit. Because it is near offices, shopping, and transit.
Whether or not there are trees, a fountain, or grass, if you have those things in place, that is what makes a successful public space.
Frankly, while placing a plaza in front of Holy Family is very euro, and would be much more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than what is there now, who would go there????
The park blocks, I think are a great example of what could be done on a smaller scale here. The West Park Blocks are essentially the campus green for Portland State University. If TCC were really interested in creating an urban "college" campus, they'd parse out the center of the blocks going south towards Boston Ave. Methodist Church for a "campus green" and build campus buildings on either side of the green.
Here are a few photos I found quickly to illustrate the potential of a 'Cathederal Square'. These are of Copley Place in Boston. The Square is a nice mix of hard and soft scape. The pathways through and around the park are logical/practical travelways that accommodate pedestrian passage however the square provides many interesting nooks or spaces in which to divert. Trees shelter pedestrians and lunchtimers sitting or passing along the fringes. The trees also help define the boundary's space.
This park is located in between the Back Bay neighborhood and the SouthEnd. It is bound by significant regional streets. There are major office buildings along the fringes as well as significant regional shopping streets and centers. Two major T lines stop here as well as an Amtrak and Commuter Rail line. This 'Square' is literally the hub for this particular portion of Boston. The Square's boundaries contain streets but are also lined with wide sidewalks and mid-rise buildings accommodating a good variety of retail and service on the ground floor and offices/residence on top. There is also a great hotel on the squares southwest corner.
Second to the Common this square is the venue for significant gatherings. Therer is a local market on the southwest corner of the square (food, crafts...) concerts, protests, public speeches, and host to celebrations (2004 Red Soxs), oh, and it is the host for the finish line to this little marathon they run there every spring.
With all that said, a 'Cathederal Square' in Tulsa could be shaped similarly. Imagine 'Holy Family' in place of Trinity and instead of the Hancock Tower you've got the white 'Vintage' tower. TCC takes the place of the Boston Public Library (on the parks western boundary - couldn't find a good photo).
Incorporate the park blocks idea Kiah and Kenosha are describing and I think you have the making of a world class public space.
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/ourtulsa/Copley_Square1.jpg)
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/ourtulsa/Copley20Square2C20Boston.jpg)
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/ourtulsa/copley05.jpg)
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/ourtulsa/copleycollage.jpg)
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g82/ourtulsa/Copley.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by Kenosha
UUUUGGGH! AJ, you're killing me.
To much hardscape? No Trees downtown? Make up your mind, man!
Actually, a public plaza like Pioneer Square is the
PERFECT place for trees in an urban, downtown environment. There's actually room for them and they provide shade in a place where you want people to gather and linger.
But there's no arguing that Pioneer Square is highly successful. It has three great things going for it -- location, programming and access to transit (another function of location, I suppose). It is a great success story.
There are many components that can make a place a desirable one to visit. As an artist I can walk in a room or space and tell you what is needed to make it feel and look a certain way. What works for one space will most likely not work in another. Our potential square has incredible possibilities, and could be so much better than most of the ones that I have visited. We are actually very fortunate, if only we are wise enough to take advantage of that fortune.
Why would anyone visit this square? For one the view would be wonderful. Many of the spaces like in Rome or Paris that people gravitate too have an open space with a great view. Think of the steps at the top of the hill by the Sacre Coure and its view of paris. A large space needs a view. A smaller space like many in our downtown would have different concerns and aesthetic decisions to make it attractive.
What you want is a space such that even when nobody is there, you are drawn to it, to visit and relax, purely because of its beauty and feel.
In addition to a view the layout and harmony of the space and the items within it are important. Trees, slopes, benches or places to sit, water feature, materials, pattern, sculpture, lighting,and more all need to be balanced and of the proper scale and positioning to feel inviting and beautiful. Not only to each other but to the buildings around them. The trendy way of saying this would be "paying attention to its Feng Shui".
The park space in front of the BOK building is a complete disaster, horrible, horrible. It doesnt invite you in and has an uncomfortable, cold, desolate feeling to it, even though its packed with crap and poorly placed trees etc. A good example would be the trails by the azaleas at Woodward Park. Each high place and low place, each stopping point, bench, bridge etc. offers you a beautiful and unique vignette or view. Whoever designed that did an excellent job.
Likewise a plaza or park if designed well can be a place of discovery and wonder. It can set you at ease, cause your mind to relax and dream, taking you away from the every day.
I could walk into any living room and, simply by moving things around a bit and adding or taking away a few items, completely change the way it feels for the people who live in it. I guarantee you that adding a plaza in front of that church, if done correctly, would completely change the feel of our downtown, immensely. It would be more beneficial to bringing life back to our downtown than any other project I could think of. Just needs a good artists touch, not an architect and a bunch of beurocrats lol.
Downtown HAS a plaza (granted not much of one).
Plus there's the trailhead park for the Centennial Walk. I believe it's going to be called something like Gusher Park?
Yes and it will even have a real gusher of a fountain.
Well, at least we have lots of examples of what not to do:
(http://preview.sk786.photosite.com/~photos/tn/3281662_348.ts1155009606968.jpg)
We absolutely must learn from our previous mistakes.
#1: Any public space must be integrated into its surroundings. It must have more than a pretty view. It absolutely must be surrounded by things that naturally draw people to the area: funky shops, cafes, coffeeshops, gelaterias, etc. And then, the public space must be inviting enough that people naturally flow into the space.
#2: The public space must be great for multi-tasking: hanging out, festivals, farmers markets, performances, playing frisbee, whatever! There should be multiple ways to use the space. My personal bias: I think that any public space downtown MUST include an attractive area that can easily double as a stage...No need to pay to erect temporary stages whenever someone wants to have an event downtown...the stage (designed to be functional, attractive and with good accoustics in mind) would be an integral feature of the space...always present and ready for an impromptu performance.
#3: Anyone involved in any aspect of planning public spaces should check out the Project for Public Spaces website (http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/). What do they say about public plazas? "Design alone does not make places succeed. Great parks, plazas and squares have a choice of things to do. Public spaces work when people come first."
If you're interested in public plazas, check out:10 Principles for Creating Successful Public Squares (//%22http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/info/parks_plazas_squares_articles/squares_principles%22). If you don't look at anything else on their website, read this one page for a clear, concise summary of what makes public plazas work.
quote:
Originally posted by PonderInc
Well, at least we have lots of examples of what not to do:
(http://preview.sk786.photosite.com/~photos/tn/3281662_348.ts1155009606968.jpg)
We absolutely must learn from our previous mistakes.
#1: Any public space must be integrated into its surroundings. It must have more than a pretty view. It absolutely must be surrounded by things that naturally draw people to the area: funky shops, cafes, coffeeshops, gelaterias, etc. And then, the public space must be inviting enough that people naturally flow into the space.
#2: The public space must be great for multi-tasking: hanging out, festivals, farmers markets, performances, playing frisbee, whatever! There should be multiple ways to use the space. My personal bias: I think that any public space downtown MUST include an attractive area that can easily double as a stage...No need to pay to erect temporary stages whenever someone wants to have an event downtown...the stage (designed to be functional, attractive and with good accoustics in mind) would be an integral feature of the space...always present and ready for an impromptu performance.
#3: Anyone involved in any aspect of planning public spaces should check out the Project for Public Spaces website (http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/). What do they say about public plazas? "Design alone does not make places succeed. Great parks, plazas and squares have a choice of things to do. Public spaces work when people come first."
If you're interested in public plazas, check out:10 Principles for Creating Successful Public Squares (//%22http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/info/parks_plazas_squares_articles/squares_principles%22). If you don't look at anything else on their website, read this one page for a clear, concise summary of what makes public plazas work.
Too many "musts", sounds pushy and absolutist and can cause the reader to become defensive, even if they agree with what is being said.
Unfortunately, most of the examples given either grew with the city (New Orleans, Boston), already had people downtown when the project started, developers saw the need for more retail and filled it in conjucture with the city, or was a result of a prolonged plan.
Tulsa has leveled any plaza areas long ago, has no people downtown, discourages retail downtown by its growth aptterns, and appears unwilling or unable to have a long term plan. The death blow appears to be massive growth south. With the vast majority of the population passing 2 malls and Utica Square to get downtown... why go there to shop? Until there is an answer to that (like, "I live there so its convienient") it isnt likely that retail will open downtown. I wouldnt open downtown as much as I would like to.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Too many "musts", sounds pushy and absolutist and can cause the reader to become defensive, even if they agree with what is being said.
Good point. I must remember that next time... [;)]
Please let it be known to all that, although I am pushy and absolutist, I did not mean to sound pushy and absolutist. Readers are strongly encouraged to mentally replace the word "must" (in my previous post) with other less offensive phrases such as: "it is imperative that everyone submit to my will..."
I find your meatloaf to be puerile and pedantic.
If Ponder is pushy, puerile and pedantic it is because of her purist, passionate and phonetic abilities.
Phonetic? Surely you meant "photogenic" [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital
quote:
Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE
The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.
They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.
I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?
Just drove by the Cathedral Square fountain and confirmed what I had thought. I couldn't tell from the street whether there is water in it, but it definitely was not operating.
fyi, I drove by the Cathedral Square fountain about 7:00 tonight and it was working just fine. Who knows why it wasn't running last week...
^ With all the heat we have been having, could have just run out of water lol.[8D] Couple pics I took.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/876/fountainincathedralsquarewatermarked4.jpg)
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6268/cathedralsquarewatermarktf6.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I have commented on something like this before. I think we have a great opportunity to have an incredible downtown, central square or plaza. Most of the cities I visit have a large central plaza facing a Cathedral. It just so happens that Tulsa has a Cathedral that rivals many that you will find in comprable cities in the US. Aaaand it also just so happens that we have a lot of empty space in front of it. No need to tear down or move anything. The only concern would be building some parking for the church and businesses, restraunts etc. around the plaza. The parking garages themselves could have businesses on the first floors or on the side facing the plaza.
The problem with many of the so called plazas and squares that we do have downtown are 2fold. One they dont have any businesses or attractions to visit. Especially like cafes or shops that have seating outside. Second none of them have a view of any sort. They are depressingly devoid of any beauty or character. If you were to build a plaza around the area facing the cathedral in Tulsa you would instantly have a great view of of a beautiful church and the view to the north of downtown from that area is stunning, especially at night. The whole area could be a tourist destination where visitors can tour the nearby churches and then shop and eat etc.
To get it started I suggest the city make a deal with the church to use their parking lot to add a central concourse through it with a fountain in the center strip of greenspace on either side, you could even still have a row of parking on either side of this. You could add a parking garage just to the North for downtown and the church on sunday. Which is I believe where the city is thinking of adding a parking garage anyway. So having it look nice with shops and restraunt space below would be a good start right there.
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6162/centralplazarz8.jpg)
Napkin scribble, use your imagination lol.
And if your imagination is as good as mine[:P] you will perhaps see something like this. Then imagine our incredible skyscrapers just to the right of each of these and you will have an idea of what we are fortunate enough to be able to have if we but only decide to do it.
(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9350/centralsquare4dq2.jpg)
or this.
(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6691/centralsquare6jl9.jpg)
What a beautiful place we could have in our downtown to eat, relax enjoy people watching, shop and have as a tourist destination. We have the groundwork for it. It could be done.
Great post. I couldn't agree more. It's exactly the the type of plaza I was referring to. Great location, stunning beauty, now it needs some cafe type shops and voila-instant destination in downtown Tulsa.
BTW, I've been meaning to chime in, just been very busy. There are some well-thought out ideas on this thread.
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Originally posted by T-TownMike
After visiting several of our great cities in our nation, I'm convinced that Tulsa needs a plaza area in downtown Tulsa. A DESTINATION of quality restaraunts and shopping, with a movie theatre. I envision an area that is pedestrian friendly that incorporates some fountains and art amongst the area. I also would like to have a nice park area adjacent to this for those that just want to be outside in downtown Tulsa. I believe we should encourage people to come downtown and spend time. The way to do that is to give them something to do. A plaza area incorporates indoors with oudoors and gives the best of both worlds. Here's some pictures of Kansas City's plaza area...
Thoughts?
It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]
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Originally posted by art_cat
quote:
Originally posted by T-TownMike
After visiting several of our great cities in our nation, I'm convinced that Tulsa needs a plaza area in downtown Tulsa. A DESTINATION of quality restaraunts and shopping, with a movie theatre. I envision an area that is pedestrian friendly that incorporates some fountains and art amongst the area. I also would like to have a nice park area adjacent to this for those that just want to be outside in downtown Tulsa. I believe we should encourage people to come downtown and spend time. The way to do that is to give them something to do. A plaza area incorporates indoors with oudoors and gives the best of both worlds. Here's some pictures of Kansas City's plaza area...
Thoughts?
It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]
Question for ya art_cat. Do you realize that the [}:)] symbol means you are being "mean" or facetious? For example, "It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]" Means you think its a stupid idea and that he is a complete moron to suggest it? Just wanting to make sure there isn't some misunderstanding going on lol.
I think this idea is great and started generating some of my own ideas earlier today. This is my quick GoogleEarth Photoshop overlay of the potential spaces, as outlined by TheArtist. There is an existing building at 8th and Main, what is it though? As you can see the parking lot next to it would be developed into lofts overlooking the square along Boulder and 8th Street. The ground level would have space for retail/cafes opening out towards the square. The parking garage, probably 4-5 levels, would also have retail/dining space on both sides. The side facing Boulder would open out onto the square with a large sidewalk along the old alleyway. The Main Street side would also have retail space. The park would most definitely have a distinctive fountain and would have a sidewalk axis going from the entrance to First Christian Church to the south up to the loft development and then another axis going from the entrance to Holy Family Cathedral across to the parking garage. In the center of this axis could be the fountain and alongside grass, flowers, and a few trees. Maybe something like this could finally get those surface lots west of TCC re-developed...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/bg918/cathedralsquare.jpg)
A potential "mixed-use" parking garage design
(http://www.beyonddc.com/images/photos/transit/mixed-use-parking-garage.jpg)
A potential midrise residential building, with street level retail space
(http://www.toronto.ca/planning/images/midrise_alexandra.jpg)
A grand urban fountain, framed by buildings and surrounded by trees and landscaping
(http://images.43things.com/place/00/01/cb/117716lr.jpg)
Yep, very much what I had in mind. How bout moving the parking garage further across the street to make the park area a full block? And also have living on it as well, a loggia on the ground floor with shops and cafe's facing the Cathedral to really create that grand European square feel. Basically I would just flip the red and blue squares lol. For it would be nice to have lofts/condos closer to 9th so that the tennants could see the cathedral and the dowtown skyline and place the main parking where there isnt a view.
Course if you wanted to build closer to the Cathedral as you have it. One solution to adding more drama and space would be to have a building with an arch in it just opposite the Cathedral and the park. Something like this....
(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3959/cathedralsquarearchkp3.jpg)
I wouldnt complain if someone built those high rise condos behind it either lol. The more I think of how much cheaper and more interesting we could do other things than the Channels the more frustrated I become towards the idea.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Yep, very much what I had in mind. How bout moving the parking garage further across the street to make the park area a full block? And also have living on it as well, a loggia on the ground floor with shops and cafe's facing the Cathedral to really create that grand European square feel. Basically I would just flip the red and blue squares lol. For it would be nice to have lofts/condos closer to 9th so that the tennants could see the cathedral and the dowtown skyline and place the main parking where there isnt a view.
Course if you wanted to build closer to the Cathedral as you have it. One solution to adding more drama and space would be to have a building with an arch in it just opposite the Cathedral and the park. Something like this....
(http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3959/cathedralsquarearchkp3.jpg)
I wouldnt complain if someone built those high rise condos behind it either lol. The more I think of how much cheaper and more interesting we could do other things than the Channels the more frustrated I become towards the idea.
Great picture of the condos. I haven't seen that ,yet. Nice job.
Young Tulsan,
I think your ideas are well thought-out and add alot to the topic. I really think this would help bring people to downtown that want to hang out, so-to-speak. This would be a fairly inexpensive project and would add alot to the area.
With the approaching holidays, it would be nice if Tulsa's downtown had a city Christmas tree (or holiday bush, if you prefer). Something that the Mayor could turn on to celebrate the season, a central location where you could hear performances, drink hot chocolate, look at lights, etc....
As a child, we use to drive downtown one night to look at the Christmas lights every year (this was when the parade was during the day). Now, there really isn't anything to see, except the parade. So we have to drive out to Rhema instead. Blah. I'd rather go downtown.
I hate waste. Let's use what we have. Bartlett Square should be the site of a free New Years Eve celebration. For the cost of police overtime Tulsa could have a major free public event. Bring out the TV cameras, have a count down, drop the ball, turn a blind eye to drinking. The people would be the attraction. 20 somethings would love it.
I am all for using what we have (at least for now), but I would say the civic center plaza would be a better location for a tree and New Years eve party. After all, you can't very well admire a tree from Bartlett circle at this point--you might get run over. Or some drunk kids might mistake the tree for a fountain.
DC has the National Tree, as well as the 50 trees from the different states; New York has Rockefeller center. It would be nice for Tulsa to have a downtown location that celebrated the holidays. How difficult/expensive would it be to put a tree up on the plaza, have a "lights on" party, maybe the same night as the PSO parade? After that, I am sure you could get schools, churches, etc...., to perform on different evenings. You might even be able to get some charitable orgination to donate the tree.
It does seem odd that Tulsa doesn't have something that would seem to be a basic, fundamental piece of any city or town. Even the channels people realized it was missing and included a public space like that. We are missing a town square or central plaza, a gathering place.
BTW did anyone notice where they chose to put the crowds of people to watch the downtown fireworks?... Right where the Cathedral Square idea would be. Wouldnt it be nice to have a large round pool of water there with a fountain in the center, it could be an ice skating rink in the winter, and the center of it a place to put the city Christmas tree.
^ It would be awesome. I love the river development ideas (not in their current form though) and I think I will love the East End project (haven't seen renderings, but the site plan looks good), but your Cathedral Square idea is one of the best "proposals" for downtown IMO. While it's just an idea with no financial backing I hope that somehow it will come to fruition just because it wouldn't be that difficult. A variety of residential and retail/dining space (with outdoor seating) surrounding an urban plaza with a distinct fountain would not be an overly ambitious plan by any means. Holy Family Cathedral is hands down one of the most beautiful churches in the region and deserves a plaza of its own.