South River News
Construction has now started on phase two of the center. The anchors for this phase will be a Barnes and Noble bookstore and a Hampton Inn Garden Suites Hotel. Phase two will be 160,000 square feet, nearly twice the size of phase one. About one third of the space will be devoted to office space, the rest to retail. Other tenants are reported to be a Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill, a Lone Star Steakhouse and a sports bar.
King's Landing is now well under construction on the Tulsa side of the river, I don't know what tenants they have lines up so far though.
Also nearby, a construction company has a sign up on one of the out parcels next to the Aquarium but I have no idea what they are building though. The Aquarium itself has construction underway on an expansion of the facility. TTCU also has purchased land by the Riverwalk for a bank branch, no news on when they might start building though. Also there has finally been some sight clearing for the $160 million Creek Nation Casino Hotel expansion.
One of the tenants for the Kings Landing is going to be an antique furniture and art store that is currently at 101st and Sheridan called Interiors Market. They are friends of mine and have some wonderful stuff that they get. Hope they do well there, they need a location with more visibility and I think this will do it for them. I hope to do some smashing artwork in the entrance and some fauxs on the walls, hopefully getting some exposure for myself as well lol. There is a nice restaurant also going in there, but dont remember what it is.
Glad to hear a bookstore is going in at the Riverwalk. Cant wait for it to all be done. Now if I could just figure out how to get to do some work in that Hampton Inn.....?
If hampton is like the riverwalk hotel, they opted for some mural work. I am glad RWC landed the hotel they were wanting and a Barnes and Noble. I can waste at least half an hour in a good bookstore and I consider it a huge plus in a walkable area. Sometimes it's nice to walk around, sometimes it's nice to take a break with a cappucino and read a book.
I don't know who would've signed up for an outparcel but I know their next target was a seafood restaurant.
I wonder how the Aquarium feels about that.
Wow, a Toby's, a Lone Star, and a sports bar, you just can't go wrong.
Swake, do you know the name of the company? I would research or see if anyone in the Tulsa chamber knows. I don't know anyone in the Jenks chamber though...
Is this stuff going in on the other side of the turnpike?
quote:
Originally posted by SoonerRiceGrad
I wonder how the Aquarium feels about that.
Wow, a Toby's, a Lone Star, and a sports bar, you just can't go wrong.
Swake, do you know the name of the company? I would research or see if anyone in the Tulsa chamber knows. I don't know anyone in the Jenks chamber though...
Is this stuff going in on the other side of the turnpike?
I drive by there all the time, I'll see if I can get the name.
And no, phase 2 of Riverwalk is just to the north of the current center. The land to the south of the turnpike still has a for sale sign on it, but a news report from this week said Bell's is still working on moving there.
From KTUL (//%22http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0406/322970.html%22)
quote:
Tulsa - The first commercial development on Tulsa's side of the Arkansas River is set to open.
The Kings Landing Shopping Center is a 47-thousand square foot mixed-use center, located adjacent to the Creek Turnpike near 99th and Riverside. It was developed by sisters Sharon King-Davis and Terry King.
"It is amazing that it has taken this long in Tulsa," said Sharon King-Davis of the riverside development.
A news conference was held Thursday to announce the development. Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor says she welcomes it.
"I look forward to this being just the beginning of a wonderful development in Tulsa that will increase our use of Tulsa's most wonderful asset, the river," Taylor said.
Investors are hoping to match or even better the success of Riverwalk Crossing, which opened on the Jenks side of the river last year. They believe the people and the business will come.
Two restaurants are already on board, including one from renowned Tulsa chef Michael Fusco and Henry Primeaux. Also coming is Interiors Market, which will relocate to the Kings Landing site.
Kings Landing is expected to open later this summer.
From KOTV (//%22http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=103231%22)
quote:
There is a new development along Tulsa's Arkansas River.
Kings Landing, an upscale, food and shopping venue will open later this year near 9900 South Riverside Drive.
The development will be the first of its kind on the Tulsa side of the river and will serve the waterfront and roadway.
Some of the stores already slated for opening in Kings Landing are Nordaggio's Coffee, Michael's on the River and Interior's Market.
Contracts are in final negotiations with Red Rock Canyon Restaurant, Push Pedal Pull and 55 Degrees Wine Bar.
Renderings of Kings Landing
(http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/2/4/D/24DA63C2-FC4C-41D9-A72D-E122A9F4AA26_or.jpg)
Plan - are stores/restaurants facing the parking or the river? It looks like the river is being ignored completely in the site plan but then again I can't see all the details. Seeing that big parking lot worries me.
(http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/E/C/C/ECCD0B1D-9B2E-4207-974C-9F5D4D4CE867_or.jpg)
I think this is going to be a nice addition to the area. However it is a small one. I wish the rest of the development in that area would have been of the same style to tie the whole thing together. I believe that the restraunts will have outdoor dining in back of the development, hopefully. I do know my friends at interiors market told me they paid extra to add arched windows along the back of there spot to make it more appealing.
The real shame is that this development will have a hard time connecting with anything else further south with that Kum and Go going in on the other side of the bridge. Whoever approved that there should be drawn and quartered. It just baffles the mind how something like that could even happen?
Maybe I'm just wierd but I don't think either development is really anything that special .... they are just strip malls decorated kinda fancy, kinda ...
Ugh. I didn't know about the Kum and Go.
All the East-side development blows (hodgepodge & not utilizing the river, & a feline clinic??).
And what's that new steel building to the north of red-robin & johnny-c's?
I'm supprised that Nordaggio's is going to have a location on both sides of the river (Riverwalk and Kings Point).
I think the bookstore will be a great addition to Riverwalk.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
Thats going to be the Toby Keith restaurant. If you did it any other way it wouldnt be authentic! Nothing says redneck like the look of corrugated sheet metal!
Nice attempt at humor. We've already establilshed, Toby is on the other side in RiverWalk Phase 2.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
they are just strip malls decorated kinda fancy, kinda ...
well what else are you going to put along the side of a river, a 12 story smug factory?
What? What does that even mean?
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
Maybe I'm just wierd but I don't think either development is really anything that special .... they are just strip malls decorated kinda fancy, kinda ...
Yes, smith farm is so much nicer, all of Owasso is for that matter.
As for the new construction, the sign says "Peloton Center", so is it a bike shop?
Yes its a bike shop, and that will be nice to have on the river. To be honest Kinds Landing isnt much more than a slighty fancied up strip mall and a very small one at that. The whole development in that area could have been thought out a bit better. Even just having the peloton center match the development on the other side to kind of "book end" the whole thing together would have made a big difference. But having said that, knowing how things in Tulsa often go, it could have just been the Kum and Go, or a Wal-Mart,a storage facility, car wash, trailer park. etc. So kind of a wash, not awful but not something to get excited about.
I do like the Riverwalk in Jenks. When the whole thing is done it will make for a nice stroll (kings landing will not) and an enjoyable dinner out.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
they are just strip malls decorated kinda fancy, kinda ...
well what else are you going to put along the side of a river, a 12 story smug factory?
What? What does that even mean?
He's referencing hybrid car owners.
Kings Landing will be nice if they do intend on offering large outdoor seating areas behind the restaurants facing the river, like how they've done it at the East Wharf on Lake Hefner in OKC. Parking is plentiful in front of the restaurants (and the lots are ALWAYS full on weekends) and then you go into them and the backs are all glass with decks overlooking the lake. This concept would work well on the river.
Does the river biking/jogging trail run past this development? It would be cool if they somehow tied that into everything else so people along the trail could easily access it.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
Kings Landing will be nice if they do intend on offering large outdoor seating areas behind the restaurants facing the river, like how they've done it at the East Wharf on Lake Hefner in OKC. Parking is plentiful in front of the restaurants (and the lots are ALWAYS full on weekends) and then you go into them and the backs are all glass with decks overlooking the lake. This concept would work well on the river.
Does the river biking/jogging trail run past this development? It would be cool if they somehow tied that into everything else so people along the trail could easily access it.
The trail runs through Riverwalk next to the river.
I also hope they use the trail here, I think it runs next to Riverside Prky in front of Outback, so it should come up to the development at least.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by Cubs
Maybe I'm just wierd but I don't think either development is really anything that special .... they are just strip malls decorated kinda fancy, kinda ...
Yes, smith farm is so much nicer, all of Owasso is for that matter.
As for the new construction, the sign says "Peloton Center", so is it a bike shop?
Thats the new Lee's Bike Shop....South Location.....Brookside will remain open as well...
quote:
Originally posted by swake
As for the new construction, the sign says "Peloton Center", so is it a bike shop?
Joy, I learned a new word.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The trail runs through Riverwalk next to the river.
It also ties in with the (primary) east-side trail via the old river bridge. The east trail goes under both 96th street bridges and around the corner park. The main trail then turns east and goes underneath riverside (there's a large creek there that goes unnoticed from the road) and continues along the Creek turnpike. Or, you can continue south along the riverside trail (over the bridge rather than under it). It peeters out at 101st St.
Google Satellite (//%22http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=36.023058+-95.949531&ll=36.023039,-95.94951&spn=0.002946,0.005531&t=k&om=1%22)
I wish they would spend money on rebuilding or re-surfacing the RiverSide jogging trail it is in poor shape. They also should extend the jogging trail many more miles south.
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom
Ugh. I didn't know about the Kum and Go.
All the East-side development blows (hodgepodge & not utilizing the river, & a feline clinic??).
And what's that new steel building to the north of red-robin & johnny-c's?
I'm supprised that Nordaggio's is going to have a location on both sides of the river (Riverwalk and Kings Point).
I think the bookstore will be a great addition to Riverwalk.
Anyone care to bet Riverwalk goes back to the lender in 4 years?
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Anyone care to bet Riverwalk goes back to the lender in 4 years?
Why would you think that?
I tried to go and eat at Los Cabos on Sunday at 4:00, and the entire center was packed, there was not a single parking space and cars were parked on the surrounding streets in Jenks and on the grass.
So, I went to Hideaway at 101st in Bixby in the new so called "upscale" center in front of Starworld. I guess the 3 foot tall water fountain and extra wide parking spaces makes it "upscale". The Aldi is nice "upscale" touch, as if Carl's Jr wasn't enough. Now THAT place was dead, maybe three table with people were there in Hideaway and I don't think any of the other stores were even open, if they were they were slower than Hideaway. That place could go back to the lender.
FYI, right by the Riverwalk on Main in Jenks right at the bridge on south side of Main TTCU has just started construction on a new bank branch.
Oh, and good news on the "Peleton Center" bike shop on the Tulsa side of the river, it looks like there will be more than one store there and it is NOT backing to the river, one of the storefronts is facing the river and not the street.
And it looks like King's Landing will be two sided like Riverwalk with parking on the street side and patios and such facing the river.
Could someone please talk Kum and Go out of building a gas station on the south side of the Creek at the river?
And Bank First is building a branch on the east side of Riverside Dr at 101st (where Git n Go was)
The 101st and memorial center is planning gone wrong. The new center is nice compared to everything else around it. Has the new hideaway, Michael V's, Starbase 21, etc. Unfortunately it is facing north on a north-south street and tucked behind carls jr and Taco Bueno. No thought whatsoever. The starworld has a lot of younger patrons (under 30, most of the time under 20) that are happy with carls jr and bueno. Chances are they're not a Michael V's crowd.
Kings Landing, from the original designs, will have very limited river-fronting useage. It is mainly a back alley and trash dumpster location. I saw the Peloton center's main entrance is facing SW. Finally having a business catering specifically to the riverside environment is nice. Bike trails + bike shop. Whodathunkit?
Full Moon Cafe opens in Creek Casino.
KOTV (//%22http://www.kotv.com/news/?103965%22)
quote:
A popular Tulsa restaurant has opened a second location.
Tony Henry with Full Moon Café: "We are excited to bring the Full Moon Cafe with its 18 year Tulsa history to Tulsa's premier gaming facility."
The Full Moon Cafe is now part of the newly added 34,000 square foot expansion at the Creek Nation Casino at 81st and Riverside.
The restaurant will serve breakfast, lunch and dinner seven days a week, 24 hours a day. It will employ 60 people.
The Full Moon Cafe has been a Tulsa tradition since 1987 at its Cherry Street location.
Is phase II of the Riverwalk Crossing finished? If not, when is the planned opening?
Its not only ,not finished, its not started either.
Jerry Gordon currently doesn't have a loan for phase 2 despite phase 1 being 100% occupied and tenants for phase 2 in place.
No, I smell "the channels", until that is decided everything is correctly on hold.
I think I smell the channels too.. does it smell like a '79 buick doused in Chanel No 5?
All I know about the Phase 2 plan is that someone backed out... A tenant for the Riverwalk and are going to open at the Tulsa Hills... The funding isn't there... One thing they can do is get that parking lot asphalted...
I didn't like the Kings Landing until you get up close to it... Its not half bad...
(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6300/dsc00005wz2.jpg)
Not half good either.
They even advertise it as "life on the river" or something like that and yet build it in a way to completely ignore the river.
King's Landing is a waste, and ugly to boot.
Hmmmm... snakes? Are you certain about King's Landing? And Riverwalk phase II will never be real...
I'm always wrong, huh.
Leave the river....concentrate on something else...it smells, looks bad, and goes against the grain of real estate development.
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
I'm one of 12 people in the city limits NOT on their payroll or part of their buddy system.
I'm getting paid and I don't even know it?
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hmmmm... snakes? Are you certain about King's Landing? And Riverwalk phase II will never be real...
I'm always wrong, huh.
Leave the river....concentrate on something else...it smells, looks bad, and goes against the grain of real estate development.
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
You said it was being repossessed and was a failure.
That has been proven false, Riverwalk remains fully leased, or very nearly so. I'm not sure the two small spaces at the end of the theater are leased, but other than that space it remains full.
The developer came to the board and let us know what is going on with phase II. He had a bank back out and working on new financing. I think the channels have had a lot to do with his bank getting cold feet and his difficulty in getting a new loan.
And never is a long time.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hmmmm... snakes? Are you certain about King's Landing? And Riverwalk phase II will never be real...
I'm always wrong, huh.
Leave the river....concentrate on something else...it smells, looks bad, and goes against the grain of real estate development.
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
You said it was being repossessed and was a failure.
That has been proven false, Riverwalk remains fully leased, or very nearly so. I'm not sure the two small spaces at the end of the theater are leased, but other than that space it remains full.
The developer came to the board and let us know what is going on with phase II. He had a bank back out and working on new financing. I think the channels have had a lot to do with his bank getting cold feet and his difficulty in getting a new loan.
And never is a long time.
I said it will go belly up someday because it only does good biness 5 -6 months a year....
I said there was nothing bankable for phase II.
Personal Attack Removed
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by swake
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hmmmm... snakes? Are you certain about King's Landing? And Riverwalk phase II will never be real...
I'm always wrong, huh.
Leave the river....concentrate on something else...it smells, looks bad, and goes against the grain of real estate development.
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
You said it was being repossessed and was a failure.
That has been proven false, Riverwalk remains fully leased, or very nearly so. I'm not sure the two small spaces at the end of the theater are leased, but other than that space it remains full.
The developer came to the board and let us know what is going on with phase II. He had a bank back out and working on new financing. I think the channels have had a lot to do with his bank getting cold feet and his difficulty in getting a new loan.
And never is a long time.
WRONG SNAKE...I said it will go belly up someday because it only does good biness 5 -6 months a year....
I said there was nothing bankable for phase II.
You twist things around, snake charmer.
Everyone watch out what Swake the Snake writes....he's a twister.
Personal Attack Removed
Personal Attack Removed
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Hmmmm... snakes? Are you certain about King's Landing? And Riverwalk phase II will never be real...
I'm always wrong, huh.
Leave the river....concentrate on something else...it smells, looks bad, and goes against the grain of real estate development.
The King sista's are the boss....how can you say anything negative against those bimbo's?
Where do people get the idea that the river smells bad? I consider my sense of smell to be as acute as anyone's and I have never noticed the river to have a foul odor. And as for its looks, that is being taken care of. The engineering work for two low water dams has been in progress for quite some time now. The dam projects are funded by Vision 2025. If you do find the river to smell bad, you should realize that low water dams will improve that as well by increasing water speed- which reduces the type of stagnant-water bacteria that produce "odor."
The Riverwalk is not an absolute gem of an attraction, but it is a successful real estate development on the river that encourages other developments on the river. The abundance of teenagers in South Tulsa have another place to hang out in South Tulsa besides a movie theatre. When college kids from South Tulsa come home for a weekend, they now don't necessarily have to drive to Brookside to enjoy a night on the town.
You are correct....it's the city that smells bad, not the river. The river just exists in close proximity to the obnoxious odor creators...
and I would not be in a hurry to call Riverwalk a successful real estate development. Time will tell....
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
You are correct....it's the city that smells bad, not the river. The river just exists in close proximity to the obnoxious odor creators...
and I would not be in a hurry to call Riverwalk a successful real estate development. Time will tell....
Come on! It is in a economically self-sustaining area- South Tulsa-Jenks. If you go there on a weekend any time of year- it is doing great business. And during the week is not bad either. As potential expansion of the Aquarium and more and more river projects are proposed, it is highly likely that the Riverwalk will succeed. What other than an unfounded negative attitude is your basis for thinking the Riverwalk will fail?
Basic bank economics.... you can't know positive without a negative...relax.
I am often amused by the amatuers here who really have no clue what it takes to initiate and complete a real estate development.
It is far more complex than anyone here understands.
I am not disagreeing with you X man, but there are other factors that are in play that will help make Riverwalk succeed.
First is a responsive city government that will do all it can to help. The Jenks city management is very tuned in to help development and they are ready to do all they can to make Riverwalk succeed.
Second, the INCOG master river plan call for a low water dam to be built just downstream of the development that should fill the river with water. The extra water will allow for water taxis to go from the east bank developments and from the big new casino. The plan also hopes for two more hotels.
I think that Riverwalk just needs to stay around until the other stuff gets done, then it will be great.
Yes.
But this fact will remain. As development expands, there will be those that settle in the area based on timing issues and not necesarily good sense.
It is a good direction. But I worry about spreading these types of development too thin and scattered all over nature.
I'd go over there more often if it weren't so difficult to get to and if the area was a tad more upscale in spots.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I am often amused by the amatuers here who really have no clue what it takes to initiate and complete a real estate development.
It is far more complex than anyone here understands.
Obviously real estate development is a complex business- and often seemingly successful businesses fail. But the Riverwalk holds a comparative advantage over other mixed use retail developments in South Tulsa. It caters to all ages and provides outdoor walkable space on the river. I make no assumptions concerning the economic sense of Gordon Real Estate, but I do know after living in South Tulsa for 19 years that there is a very high demand for a retail/restaurant/bar/entertainment development on the South side of the river. The fact that it is not quite as upscale as promised doesn't matter that much when it has no competition in South Tulsa- meaning there are no other large-scale developments that provide outdoor walkable space on the river.
I told you so.....
Tulsa World partially unveils the fallacy of Riverwalk.
Developer shenanigans at taxpayer expense? Not again. First the fishery, er Aquarium, and now this bs. Jenks Oklahoma is one weirdo suburb.
Maybe Jerry Gordon should team up with Richard Roberts....City of Faithful Failures.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I'd go over there more often if it weren't so difficult to get to and if the area was a tad more upscale in spots.
How is it difficult to get to? Compared to what? Certainly not Woodland Hills; its always been a nightmare to get there.
I doubt I would go if it were more upscale.
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
I'd go over there more often if it weren't so difficult to get to and if the area was a tad more upscale in spots.
How is it difficult to get to? Compared to what? Certainly not Woodland Hills; its always been a nightmare to get there.
I doubt I would go if it were more upscale.
Woodland Hills is a nightmare to get to because of lousy city engineering. Not because of location.
BTW, according to TV (channel 8) the city is FINALLY doing something with the traffic lights to help the flow of cars east and west.
^Do you really think that Riverwalk is difficult to get to because of location? I find it quite easy. Where along the river would you think a good location?
I don't have any problem getting there either?
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
^Do you really think that Riverwalk is difficult to get to because of location? I find it quite easy. Where along the river would you think a good location?
Having gotten feedback from major retailers looking along the river, almost all of them ask "why would we want to be there?"
Sometimes, the truth is hard to accept.
I seem to recall a time when nature was a draw. Is it now believed that the only way to get activity by a river is through entertainment and retail uses?
What has happend to America's Most Beautiful city?
I am not trying to attack you, but you didn't really answer the question. You said you would go to Riverwalk more if it weren't so difficult to get there. I thought that was an odd statement--I have no problem getting there, and can't imagine why someone would consider it difficult. Do you really consider it difficult?
In response, you now say that most major retailers ask why they would want to locate there. Which major retailers? What is their concern with that location? Kohls seems to be doing very well at that location (though on the other side of the river). I would call them a major retailer.
City Mother,
Kohl's is not on the river, they are co anchored with Wally World, and the development there is adjacent to two major arteries.
Riverwalk is a pain to drive to and when you get there it is a pain to park. Yes, it is difficult. The rest of this development is ok except that now the developer thinks it's the governments job to bail him out for his mistakes.
Philanthropist
Sorry, still not making a lot of sense to me. Kohls is located at 93rd & Riverside; Riverwalk is directly accross the river, less than 1/2 mile from that same intersection. Both require driving on Riverside to the 93rd street intersection, then your either turn left or right. You're correct--technically, Kohl's is not on the river; its accross the street from Riverside, but how can going over a bridge make the location suddenly become difficult to reach?
I'm just trying to follow your logic here--you imply that the problem with Riverwalk is location, ie, difficult to reach. Yet, 71st is more difficult, and Kohl's is about the same. You say that major retailers don't want to locate there--is it because they (incorrectly) believe its too difficult to reach or because they don't want to be on the river itself? Again, which major retailers are you talking about?
Obviously, there is a problem with Riverwalk, or the guy wouldn't be seeking government help. But I cannot understand why that would be. The place is ussually packed. The shops and restaurants are, for the most part, good. Sales tax revenue has shot up in Jenks, so clearly they are doing a decent business. I have never heard a single person, except you, complain of the location or the parking. I don't know what the problem is, but I don't think its that.
Oh, the big retailers must be wrong. I am sorry for being sooooo judgemental. BTW, if you have not seen anybody here complain about the parking there, you must not be reading the same threads I do....
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
^Do you really think that Riverwalk is difficult to get to because of location? I find it quite easy. Where along the river would you think a good location?
Sometimes, the truth is hard to accept.
I seem to recall a time when nature was a draw. Is it now believed that the only way to get activity by a river is through entertainment and retail uses?
What has happend to America's Most Beautiful city?
Americas most beautiful city? Are you referring to what Tulsa used to be called or was Jenks called that once? Because as far as I know the Riverwalk is in Jenks.
As for the parking complaint you can easily find people (usually native Tulsans) who complain about parking just about anywhere, even downtown lol.
No retail and entertainment venues are not the only way to get activity down by the river. But seeing as we dont really have either yet, except for the Riverwalk and the casino, I dont think its going to hurt any. Plus its not as though these small developments have taken up any large portion of the river. How many total miles of river are there in the city and how much has been developed with retail and entertainment? I dont recall any recreational or great natural features being in the area where the Riverwalk is either.
Do you think Tulsa should bail them out like we did the aquarium?
According to a Jenks Chamber of Commerce website's news release dated 11/28/05, the city received a 20.9% increase in sales tax revenue from November 2004. According to the website, Riverwalk Crossing contributed greatly to the sales tax revenue. The Tulsa World recently reported more tax revenue increases for Jenks in November 2006. It seems obvious to me that Riverwalk Crossing has greatly benefited the city of Jenks economically. It also seems apparent that Mr. Gordon realized this benefit, and tried to snake his way into some TIF financing for the Riverwalk. Jenks refused him because TIF is supposed to be used to encourage development in areas that are either economically depressed or under-developed. I agree with Jenks- granting TIF to the Riverwalk would not be an appropriate use of TIF because the Riverwalk is a well established development (especially for Jenks). Mr. Gordon needs to just bite the bullet and invest his own company's money (which there likely is plenty of) and finish his development. I find Gordon's whoring around between Tulsa and Jenks for TIF dollars to be quite comical.
I didnt know the aquarium was privately owned? Are there any large aquariums that aren't partly or mostly funded by taxpayer dollars?
Plus why would he need to be bailed out? I thought the article said he was closing on a deal with a bank to start phase 2 and was also looking into a TIF from Jenks to help with infrastructure needs. I dont live in Jenks so it wouldnt be a "we" "bailing them out" if thats what your calling the TIF, anyway lol. Do you?
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Do you think Tulsa should bail them out like we did the aquarium?
Wow.
Just wow.
Tulsa never bailed out the aquarium.
The aquarium has been "overperforming" since it opened.
Vision2025 paid some money to accelerate debt payoff. Kinda like paying off your 5 year car note in 4.5 years. Glad credit companies don't think like you, then everyone who overpays is "going bankrupt."
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
According to a Jenks Chamber of Commerce website's news release dated 11/28/05, the city received a 20.9% increase in sales tax revenue from November 2004. According to the website, Riverwalk Crossing contributed greatly to the sales tax revenue. The Tulsa World recently reported more tax revenue increases for Jenks in November 2006. It seems obvious to me that Riverwalk Crossing has greatly benefited the city of Jenks economically. It also seems apparent that Mr. Gordon realized this benefit, and tried to snake his way into some TIF financing for the Riverwalk. Jenks refused him because TIF is supposed to be used to encourage development in areas that are either economically depressed or under-developed. I agree with Jenks- granting TIF to the Riverwalk would not be an appropriate use of TIF because the Riverwalk is a well established development (especially for Jenks). Mr. Gordon needs to just bite the bullet and invest his own company's money (which there likely is plenty of) and finish his development. I find Gordon's whoring around between Tulsa and Jenks for TIF dollars to be quite comical.
Gordon isn't sitting on a pile of cash. He used it for phase 1.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Oh, the big retailers must be wrong. I am sorry for being sooooo judgemental. BTW, if you have not seen anybody here complain about the parking there, you must not be reading the same threads I do....
Yes, parking has been mentioned a lot, especially since the theater opened. There is a lot of "yet to be paved" parking.
The 2025 initiative bailed out the Jenks aquarium. If we had not, it would never had seen success. Yes, we subsidized the finished product. It was a BAIT and switch development. I think there are 2 or 3 successful type aquarium museums across the country. The rest drown in debt.
You posties seem to bat around alot.
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The 2025 initiative bailed out the Jenks aquarium. If we had not, it would never had seen success. Yes, we subsidized the finished product. It was a BAIT and switch development. I think there are 2 or 3 successful type aquarium museums across the country. The rest drown in debt.
You posties seem to bat around alot.
If you do a little resaerch, the aquarium had membership and ticket sales something like 20% above projections. Most other aquariums are failing, but the one in Jenks was built largely with donations and has much of it's operating costs the same way. By and large, it looks very good on paper.
I always thought that the fishing tackle collection at the aquarium was a little weird.
Kind of like having a gun show at the zoo.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I always thought that the fishing tackle collection at the aquarium was a little weird.
Kind of like having a gun show at the zoo.
They should have put that near the entrance to a good Seafood Restaurant.[:P]
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The 2025 initiative bailed out the Jenks aquarium. If we had not, it would never had seen success. Yes, we subsidized the finished product. It was a BAIT and switch development. I think there are 2 or 3 successful type aquarium museums across the country. The rest drown in debt.
You posties seem to bat around alot.
I don't consider a nonprofit aquarium as anything like the for profit business venture of the riverwalk. I dont even see how or why you make a comparison? If your going to gripe about "bailing out" the aquarium with 2025 money, how about the bait and switch and bail out of the Planetarium and Air and Space Museum? Or how about Mohawk Park? The other parks, the trails and river? Why bail them out? Goodness a swimming pool and community center in Skiatook? You mean to tell me swimming pools cant be funded privately and run at a profit? The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame? We gonna start bailing out every type of music venue in town?
To me the aquarium is more of a combination... educational tool, recreational facility, area attraction, cultural and entertainment asset, than it is a for profit business venture like the Riverwalk.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
I always thought that the fishing tackle collection at the aquarium was a little weird.
Kind of like having a gun show at the zoo.
They should have put that near the entrance to a good Seafood Restaurant.[:P]
The aquarium did feature recipes next to the shrimp and fish exhibits.
Plus they are building a new seafood restaurant.
The whole reason for "The Karl and Beverly White National Bait & Tackle Museum" is that Karl White is local and looking for a place to donate. Plus, many of the exhibits are from companies either located in, or tied to, oklahoma. The museum is currently only large enough to house about a third of his collection.
I'm not a fan, just wanted to clear that up.
What kind of seafood will they serve?
Here is your fish sandwich...sorry it is ugly. We keep the pretty ones for the fish tanks...
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Oh, the big retailers must be wrong. I am sorry for being sooooo judgemental. BTW, if you have not seen anybody here complain about the parking there, you must not be reading the same threads I do....
Great response! You avoid actually answering the question, while at the same time appearing smug, all-knowing, and as though you actually know some big-time retailers. Are you a politician?
In case you forgot, the question is how can one side of the river be a good location, and the other be bad?
This thread smells especially troll-like.
quote:
Originally posted by BKDotCom
This thread smells especially troll-like.
I live "near" a bridge, does that count?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The 2025 initiative bailed out the Jenks aquarium. If we had not, it would never had seen success. Yes, we subsidized the finished product. It was a BAIT and switch development. I think there are 2 or 3 successful type aquarium museums across the country. The rest drown in debt.
You posties seem to bat around alot.
I don't consider a nonprofit aquarium as anything like the for profit business venture of the riverwalk. I dont even see how or why you make a comparison? If your going to gripe about "bailing out" the aquarium with 2025 money, how about the bait and switch and bail out of the Planetarium and Air and Space Museum? Or how about Mohawk Park? The other parks, the trails and river? Why bail them out? Goodness a swimming pool and community center in Skiatook? You mean to tell me swimming pools cant be funded privately and run at a profit? The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame? We gonna start bailing out every type of music venue in town?
To me the aquarium is more of a combination... educational tool, recreational facility, area attraction, cultural and entertainment asset, than it is a for profit business venture like the Riverwalk.
Yes,educational. Recreational? For Profit? I am missing something here....
Look at the historical chain of events that unfolded on the Jenks Aquarium and you will understand the original intent was to operate profitably only to be undone by poor planning and subsequently BAILED out by 2025. It's simple to comprehend unless you think we are some Midwest magnet for tourism which we are not and never will be.
Jenks....a name that fits. But they spelled it wrong. It's jinxed because it's on the wrong side of the river..but I love that dirty water!!!
quote:
Originally posted by pmcalk
Great response! You avoid actually answering the question, while at the same time appearing smug, all-knowing, and as though you actually know some big-time retailers. Are you a politician?
In case you forgot, the question is how can one side of the river be a good location, and the other be bad?
I think this may be your answer: Gephyrophobia (//%22http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=12355%22)
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
The 2025 initiative bailed out the Jenks aquarium. If we had not, it would never had seen success. Yes, we subsidized the finished product. It was a BAIT and switch development. I think there are 2 or 3 successful type aquarium museums across the country. The rest drown in debt.
You posties seem to bat around alot.
I don't consider a nonprofit aquarium as anything like the for profit business venture of the riverwalk. I dont even see how or why you make a comparison? If your going to gripe about "bailing out" the aquarium with 2025 money, how about the bait and switch and bail out of the Planetarium and Air and Space Museum? Or how about Mohawk Park? The other parks, the trails and river? Why bail them out? Goodness a swimming pool and community center in Skiatook? You mean to tell me swimming pools cant be funded privately and run at a profit? The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame? We gonna start bailing out every type of music venue in town?
To me the aquarium is more of a combination... educational tool, recreational facility, area attraction, cultural and entertainment asset, than it is a for profit business venture like the Riverwalk.
Yes,educational. Recreational? For Profit? I am missing something here....
Look at the historical chain of events that unfolded on the Jenks Aquarium and you will understand the original intent was to operate profitably only to be undone by poor planning and subsequently BAILED out by 2025. It's simple to comprehend unless you think we are some Midwest magnet for tourism which we are not and never will be.
Jenks....a name that fits. But they spelled it wrong. It's jinxed because it's on the wrong side of the river..but I love that dirty water!!!
Oh dont be a dork, you know full well what I meant about the difference between a for profit and a non profit venture. I am sure any non profit would love to make a profit and may hope to do so, but its not their purpose for being and even if they do intend to make a profit its not money that would go in an investors pocket it would go back into the venture.
The aquarium in the beginning was built with donations, volunteers, giving from foundations, etc. not investors expecting a financial return.
Jenks on the "wrong side of the river"???
"dirty water"? What are you a little 5 year old girl? Its a RIVER not a mountain stream. Rivers carry DIRT, they call it sand and silt. Did you know that fish pee and poop in the river too? eeeew icky What do you want to happen with the river, clean out all the sand, polish the bottom and filter out all the "dirt" coming into it? What next? "I want the the whoooole world to be covered in glitter.",says oax while looking dreamily into space and batting eyelashes.
Fartist, try to be civil. Jenks or Jinxed, it's always been the laughing stock of south Tulsa. It's gone from World Evengelic Center (covered in gold glitter) to Fish Fry. Not to forget our antique shopping center.
Look. Even with donations and non profit status, the deal would have died a slow death without the belts and suspenders provided through Vision 2025.
Wise up. You sound like the Jinx Chamber boy. Lighten up too....the suburb supports our best Public schools. It's not all bad.
quote:
Originally posted by jiminy
I think this may be your answer: Gephyrophobia (//%22http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=12355%22)
I think the answer is "Troll Boy"
quote:
Originally posted by aoxamaxoa
Fartist, try to be civil. Jenks or Jinxed, it's always been the laughing stock of south Tulsa. It's gone from World Evengelic Center (covered in gold glitter) to Fish Fry. Not to forget our antique shopping center.
Look. Even with donations and non profit status, the deal would have died a slow death without the belts and suspenders provided through Vision 2025.
Wise up. You sound like the Jinx Chamber boy. Lighten up too....the suburb supports our best Public schools. It's not all bad.
Lighten up and be civil? I thought I was being quite humorous. Perhaps I should have added some of these at the end...[:P][:D][;)] to cue you in.
Fartist? That's humorous in itself.
Aox I think Jenks has passed by your evangelical/laughingstock description. It reminds me of when I worked for a couple of years in BA during its meteoric growth. Jenks is an arrogant younger brother who spouts off to the bullies cause he knows his big brother (Tulsa) will kick donkey if he needs it.
I watched the Aquarium process unfold too and I doubt it would have survived without help from the city of Jenks and the V2025. But survive it did and now serves as the linch pin for development in that area. Riverwalk is a success by the standards it needed to meet. Jenks is growing up like a spoiled Cascia kid and is enjoying the money and attention. Hard to consider a laughingstock when they score the big catches.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Aox I think Jenks has passed by your evangelical/laughingstock description.
Hard to consider a laughingstock when they score the big catches.
Indeed, when looking at Jenks, Broken Arrow, and Tulsa. If there is a laughing stock among the three, it has to be Tulsa.