I bought my first house a while back from McGraw Davisson and Stewart, and was told it was 2048 sq feet. The realtors told me it was a fair price by showing me what the average sq. ft. per home goes for in the area then multiplied it by the # of square feet in my house, it came up right at the range. My sister bought a 1600 sq ft home and when they came over I told them my square footage and they mentioned that it didnt seem to be that large? I watch those home buying shows on hgtv and whenever they say a house is around 2000 sq feet it seemed so much larger than mine. This evening I got out the old tape measure and my sq footage is just under 1500, but that doesnt include the garage. Is the garage included in sq footage? Or did I get duped and pay for 1/4th a house I didnt get?
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I bought my first house a while back from McGraw Davisson and Stewart, and was told it was 2048 sq feet. The realtors told me it was a fair price by showing me what the average sq. ft. per home goes for in the area then multiplied it by the # of square feet in my house, it came up right at the range. My sister bought a 1600 sq ft home and when they came over I told them my square footage and they mentioned that it didnt seem to be that large? I watch those home buying shows on hgtv and whenever they say a house is around 2000 sq feet it seemed so much larger than mine. This evening I got out the old tape measure and my sq footage is just under 1500, but that doesnt include the garage. Is the garage included in sq footage? Or did I get duped and pay for 1/4th a house I didnt get?
Did you ever get an answer to this? I was always under the impression that the sq footage listed for a house was actual "liveable space". My definition of liveable space doesnt includ the garage. The house we are building is 2200 sq ft and that doesnt include the back patio or garage.
When you had your appraisal done for the mortgage company they would have checked your sq footage. Did you check that? Also, you might have tons of closet space that you aren't counting. Most of the time, I thought they measure around the outside of the house, less the garage for simplicity.
Curious to the answer as well.
There are lots of different descriptions. Heated space is another one. In the past generally speaking, realtors only considered what was heated and conformed to normal sizes to be included. That means that garages, low ceiling basements, open breezeways etc. were not included. They also use the phrase, "as per courthouse records" as a defense to their oral remarks. So a realtor could say, "the last appraisal showed 2000 sq. feet" then disclose on the listing that it was 1600ft per courthouse and be safe. Bear in mind the appraisal may have been for a re-finance or equity loan where the bank's interest was still covered so they didn't care how accurate the measurements were. In fact, when I got an equity loan they simply asked me for an estimate.
When the market heated up in the late 90's, the rules started to be expanded. For instance a friend of mine was able to include his basement by simply opening a duct into it. It was still open ceiling, concrete walls and only suitable for storage and utilities but the bank bought it and they were able to add some $25,000 to the appraisal. Of course the banks wanted to loan as much as possible so they played the game. Real appraisers seem to be disappearing as more institutions rely on computerized court records that may or may not still be accurate. Also if someone adds on to their property without getting appropriate inspections they may be hesitant to challenge the court records.
Measuring yourself is the best advice. Then, if the measurement is different, you can make them answer why. Cheaper than a lawsuit after the fact.
edit: I was a realtor for several years. Buying a house is tantamount to buying a car on 11th street. Caveat emptor.
Apparently I got gyped as best I can figure. There is no way my house, the liveable space, including closets, is 2,000 sq feet. When I had my house refinanced and reappraised, after having had it for 2 years, they didnt measure they just took for granted that it was 2,048 sq feet. I originally paid 114,000$ however it was appraised for 18,000$ more than I had paid, and it was still not even close to being finished remodeling at the time. Its not an expensive house to begin with, but it still would have been nice to either have actually had the space I paid for or not paid as much. Just checked Zillow.com and they have my house as now being worth 171,000$, go figure lol.
I have a simple way to find out what the city sees as square footage for your home. Go to the library (Tulsa Library) On the computer you have different programs other than the internet. One is called land records. Open that program hit A press enter then 41 then press enter. On this new page you will enter your home address and it will show the owner name address number of rooms as well as sq. ft. and the lot size. I hope this helps.
I just remeasured again. Was eeeextragenerous and added outside walls, rounded up every half foot to a full foot, etc. Came to 1700sq feet.
Then I thought perhaps they added the storage areas off the garage. One little rooom once had a window unit in it so figured perhaps they counted that. Its basically a laundry room and is 56sq feet. Then added the closet that contains the heating unit for the house it has space for storage and is right off the garage, it was 84 sq feet. Thats 130sq feet total for those two, so adding that makes the square footage 1830 sq feet. Thats about 200 sq feet short of what its supposed to be. Not a huge amount but for a house this small it would have been nice to have had or to have had that 16,000$ lol.
If I go and I find out the square footage is actually less than what I paid for, do I have any recourse? And in this instance, would it be worth bothering with?
The best remedy you could have at this point would be to argue your property taxable value is lower based on less sq footage. As long as you don't intend to sell anytime soon, I'd have an appraiser come measure the sq footage, and then next time property values come out (pretty soon) you can argue that your taxable rate has been based on significantly more sq footages than your house actually has. Might save you a couple hundred bucks on your property taxes.
I guess you could argue with your appraiser, it would have been their responsiblity to measure the property. Of course, it's been a long time.
I think sq footage is a moving target. I really doubt what you see is ever accurate. When we built our house, it ended up being 100 sq ft less than what the builder's plan said. Most people would never notice this and just go by what the builder said. (and as such somewhere down the road someone might felt jilted if we'd only used the builder's numbers not noticing the discprepency)
Anyway, hope you are happy with your home, I could tell you the horid stories of mine if you want to feel better? Mine is falling apart, literally, and it's just a tad over two years old, needless to say we have filed a lawsuit against our builder. Really sad for us! We loved the house.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa_fan
The best remedy you could have at this point would be to argue your property taxable value is lower based on less sq footage. As long as you don't intend to sell anytime soon, I'd have an appraiser come measure the sq footage, and then next time property values come out (pretty soon) you can argue that your taxable rate has been based on significantly more sq footages than your house actually has. Might save you a couple hundred bucks on your property taxes.
I guess you could argue with your appraiser, it would have been their responsiblity to measure the property. Of course, it's been a long time.
I think sq footage is a moving target. I really doubt what you see is ever accurate. When we built our house, it ended up being 100 sq ft less than what the builder's plan said. Most people would never notice this and just go by what the builder said. (and as such somewhere down the road someone might felt jilted if we'd only used the builder's numbers not noticing the discprepency)
Anyway, hope you are happy with your home, I could tell you the horid stories of mine if you want to feel better? Mine is falling apart, literally, and it's just a tad over two years old, needless to say we have filed a lawsuit against our builder. Really sad for us! We loved the house.
care to disclose who your builder was? what neighborhood, etc??
As for you Artist, I would agree with the person who said your recourse should be the appraiser. He obviously didnt do the job that you paid him to do. I can understand 50-100 ft discrepancy possibly, but 500?? I would definitely talk to someone and get some advice about what you could do. False advertising?
Since you asked . . . Concept Builders. They have been around for a long time and build mostly in Sand Springs. I am hopeful they will do the right thing, but it stinks that we have had to take it this far. Basically there is a water drainage issue under the house, subsurface. They discovered it prior to pouring the foundation and rather than contact an engineer about it (or even us) they proceeded to build the house on it. Even their own documentation refers to a "spring seeping from the back of the property" they can't win this. At the end of the day if they do right by us, all I'll really tell people is they are NOT a custom home builder, stick to their own developments and you may be OK. We have 2 1/4 inch raise already in our house, again, just over two years old. The house is fully piered, so the middle of the foundation is raising. Cracks I've never actually seen before, there are some with 1/2 inch gaps.
We live in Prattville, basically on the side of the hill, although our building pad was flat.
Hopefully we'll be out of here in a couple of months, we had two support beams collapse in the attic a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not sure how much longer the house is safe to live in. Pretty sucky huh? URGH! Next house, existing home and we will use TWO engineers to do the inspections. Being burned once is enough!
Sorry, you probably didn't want that novel, but as I'm sure you can imagine, that is the kind, businesslike version. If they don't settle soon on a reasonable figure, I can assure you it will get ugly and I have a BIG mouth!
I think when most realtors and sellers quote square footage, they are referring to climate controlled floor space, or all areas that are heated/cooled, including the garage if it is climate controlled. This would include baths, closets, etc.
When I bought my house years ago, the seller said "2,000 sq. ft." The Tulsa county tax assessor lists my house as 1,920 sq. ft. Whether or not someone gets gyped based on a square footage quote is relative; a house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Lots of other factors influence selling price besides just size.
Have you looked for secret rooms? A basement you don't know about? [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I think when most realtors and sellers quote square footage, they are referring to climate controlled floor space, or all areas that are heated/cooled, including the garage if it is climate controlled. This would include baths, closets, etc.
When I bought my house years ago, the seller said "2,000 sq. ft." The Tulsa county tax assessor lists my house as 1,920 sq. ft. Whether or not someone gets gyped based on a square footage quote is relative; a house is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Lots of other factors influence selling price besides just size.
Thats true about other factors. But when other houses on the block, just like yours, are going for 30,000 less because their square footage is in the 1,600 square foot range and yours is said to be 2,000 square feet, but then turns out it isnt... Well you do the math.
If you were buying a house and trying to decide between house A and house B. House A was 1600 sq feet and sold for 100,000 and House B was 2000 sq feet and sold for 130,000 and you went ahead and bought house B thinking it was a fair price. Then you had friends come over and say stuff like,,, Hmmm, this doesnt seem like its 2,000sq ft to me. Then you measure it and it isnt. Sure, perhaps I should have caught that, but you often have a lot going on in your mind when your looking and trying to buy a house and would think that the square footage they are basing the price on is the right square footage. Is it structurally sound, ever have termites, whats that little crack in the foundation, hows the plumbing and electrical, will they go down on the price, what can I negotiate, whats my interest rate going to actually be, whats under this carpet, how could anyone live with that gawd awful wallpaper and how easily will it come off, etc. etc. I did like the house. But mine was said to cost more than the ones around it because it had more square feet. But it didnt. You dont just buy a house, you buy into a neighborhood as well and the prices of the similar houses around you do affect the price of your hose.
I could have gotten a smaller home in a nicer area or a larger home in a not as nice area. I figured I found a balance that was about right price/sq foot/location wise.
quote:
Originally posted by Wilbur
Have you looked for secret rooms? A basement you don't know about? [}:)]
No, but the "floored attic" consisted of a space you can barely crawl through and a couple of 2"x12" boards laid across the rafters lol. I did catch that little "exageration" when I was poking around the house but figured it wasnt a big deal.
Are you measuring room by room, or are you measuring the perimter of the house. The wall thicknesses are included in the square footage, also. When the appraisors have done my property in the past, they basically measure outside all the way around, then subtract anything that wouldn't count (mechanical, garage). Try it that way.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
I just remeasured again. Was eeeextragenerous and added outside walls, rounded up every half foot to a full foot, etc. Came to 1700sq feet.
Then I thought perhaps they added the storage areas off the garage. One little rooom once had a window unit in it so figured perhaps they counted that. Its basically a laundry room and is 56sq feet. Then added the closet that contains the heating unit for the house it has space for storage and is right off the garage, it was 84 sq feet. Thats 130sq feet total for those two, so adding that makes the square footage 1830 sq feet. Thats about 200 sq feet short of what its supposed to be. Not a huge amount but for a house this small it would have been nice to have had or to have had that 16,000$ lol.
If I go and I find out the square footage is actually less than what I paid for, do I have any recourse? And in this instance, would it be worth bothering with?
I would like to add a small amount of info to the conversation....
If my memory serves me correct?
The time you say you purchased the house was about the same time that McGraw was found to have been using "Closings of Tulsa"..."exclusively"
If I am incorrect please let me know.. But somewhere you should have a record of the closing company.. as well as the appraiser.
If the appraiser was hired by the bank etc etc..
If closings of Tulsa was involved as well as McGraw.
Oh what the heck: just contact one of these influential developer types like Amanda with Metro Lofts... I'm sure they could tell you if you have legal recourse against any or all of the parties.
Yes I did use McGraw and Closings of Tulsa. Dont know who hired the appraiser or remember who the appraiser was. I kept getting the feeling in the McGraw office that... well they werent really shopping around and trying to get me the best deal or something. I remember there was something about them in the news a while back but never looked to see what it was about? They said they were working for me and I trusted that they werent lying and were honestly looking out for my best interests as a first time homebuyer not knowing heads or tails about such things. They are a good sized, well known company so I figure they wouldnt ever do anything that would harm their reputation.
I also got financed through CountryWide Home Loans. Which has been in the news lol. I remember filling out a loan application thing at a home show I was with where McGraw had a booth. I didnt think I would actually even get approved for anything. I dont have a steady income. Self-employed artist... helloooo. But they called me later and said I was approved. I asked for how much and they said. You can get whatever you want![8D] I was like Woooo Hoooo! lol. BUT I decided to play it safe and go for the best, cheap little house, that I felt I could reasonably afford during worst case scenario years. Ended up getting one of those "subprime" loans where after the first 2 years they start raising the rates, but because I was on time and went with something I could easily afford I was able to refinance with no problem. But, having been in the middle of all of that I can see how people could have gotten tempted and pushed their luck. I suppose thats one of the good lessons from having been a kid during the oil bust years. You know good times come to an end.
Do a little digging and find out why McGraw played out the way it did.
Closing of Tulsa as well...
Still think that Amanda with Metro Lofts or maybe even Jamie could let you know what actions any of the parties can be held accountable for.
Possibly even one of our very own Barristers could provide a little feedback.
Land Records at the Court House will tell you exactly what square footage the structure is on record as having..
Thing is, for a small fee, most Realtors have desktop access to this info on their computer.
Somewhere you have your Mortgage papers. Attached will be a copy of the "Appraisal" ..
Listing Sq footage and Comps they used Etc etc.
The "McGraw.. Closings of Tulsa thing always puzzled me. Funneling all the Closing to one Company made the owners of that company some money.. What did McGraw get out of it??
Ah, Mcgraw and closings of tulsa....what a racket.
so many things on this thread, I'll just say a few comments.
Zillow isn't the law when it comes to estimates. rarely will you get what zillow zestimates because they use factors that Tulsa doesn't apply to.
sq footage includes all heated/cooled space. If your garage is heated/cooled, it could be counted in the sq footage.
114k is about the right price for a 1700-2k sq ft house.
quote:
Is the garage included in sq footage?
Generally no. Sq. Footage is common living areas - where people are going to be. A garage, a shed, an outside patio... not living space.
Sounds like some dolt forgot to subtract the garage. Then, either the same or a related company did the subsequent inspections and did not want to correct it. OR - as I often suspect, the home appraisal and inspection was totally worthless and they did NOTHING resembling what you pay hefty fees for them to do.
Contact a real estate attorney and see if you have any recourse. Off by 33% is well worth looking into IMHO. Even if the price was still correct, they did not do the task you hired them to do, perhaps you can get their portion of the fees back.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Is the garage included in sq footage?
Generally no. Sq. Footage is common living areas - where people are going to be. A garage, a shed, an outside patio... not living space.
Sounds like some dolt forgot to subtract the garage. Then, either the same or a related company did the subsequent inspections and did not want to correct it. OR - as I often suspect, the home appraisal and inspection was totally worthless and they did NOTHING resembling what you pay hefty fees for them to do.
Contact a real estate attorney and see if you have any recourse. Off by 33% is well worth looking into IMHO. Even if the price was still correct, they did not do the task you hired them to do, perhaps you can get their portion of the fees back.
i never saw any post that said he hired a buyers agent....so there wasn't any job for him to "task" to them.
Sounds like the OP doesn't do his homework on large purchases. I have a bridge I'd like to sell him.
I'm no expert in real estate, but I was under the impression that between the appraiser and the inspector SOMEONE would have verified the Sq. footage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, just seems like one of those things that would be looked at.
Roof - check. Downspouts have little spouts - check. Toilets flush - check. But no check on the missing 500 feet? Seems odd.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I'm no expert in real estate, but I was under the impression that between the appraiser and the inspector SOMEONE would have verified the Sq. footage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, just seems like one of those things that would be looked at.
Roof - check. Downspouts have little spouts - check. Toilets flush - check. But no check on the missing 500 feet? Seems odd.
I have a bridge to sell you too.
the selling agent doesn't owe you anything save a clear termite and anything else stated in the contract. doing an appraisal and/or inspection is up to you.
now I know why there are buyer's agents. I always thought it was the stupidest concept ever but I guess even idiots need to put a roof over their heads.
The house just north of you is supposed to be 100Sqft smaller. You might look at it for comparison. I bet the 2048 number is right. You need to measure the outside of your house to get a good idea.
If your house is 2048sq ft, you paid a steal at $55.90/sq ft. If not, you paid $71.56/sq ft which I can't imagine being true.
Make sure and count any climate controlled space downstairs like a half bathroom, mudroom, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The house just north of you is supposed to be 100Sqft smaller. You might look at it for comparison. I bet the 2048 number is right. You need to measure the outside of your house to get a good idea.
If your house is 2048sq ft, you paid a steal at $55.90/sq ft. If not, you paid $71.56/sq ft which I can't imagine being true.
Make sure and count any climate controlled space downstairs like a half bathroom, mudroom, etc.
$56 a sq ft? What ghetto is that?
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
The house just north of you is supposed to be 100Sqft smaller. You might look at it for comparison. I bet the 2048 number is right. You need to measure the outside of your house to get a good idea.
If your house is 2048sq ft, you paid a steal at $55.90/sq ft. If not, you paid $71.56/sq ft which I can't imagine being true.
Make sure and count any climate controlled space downstairs like a half bathroom, mudroom, etc.
$56 a sq ft? What ghetto is that?
I paid $60 at 71st & Memorial. Of course, my neighbors paid $78.
Inteller,
I imagine his bank required an appraisal and an inspection. Generally each of those items have a checklist of items that BOTH PARTIES rely on. If the inspector checked and said "roof in good condition" then both parties rely on that information. Clearly it is primarily for the bennefit of the BUYER, since the seller really doesn't care.
Thus, the inspector/appraiser's duty is to the buyer. I'm not sure you understand that or not, but I have to assume you do and just misunderstood my previous post.
My point was this:
I assume one of those two is supposed to verify square footage. It seems odd they would check minuet details (checking for proper down spout pavers and such) but neglect major attributes of the property. If someone actually knows whether or not anyone is supposed to verify Sq. Footage I'd be interested in knowing.
If they are supposed to, it would be material since TheArtist has stated that he relied on that information when making a purchase decision (reasonably foreseeable that someone would rely on the inspection). His recourse would NOT be against the seller (unless he could verify knowledge or intent to deceive), but whomever's duty it was to verify the Sq. Footage.
- - -
Oh, and I've heard all about the condition of Oklahoma bridges, that bridge isn't in the Okie State is it?
well I can tell you that most of the mortgage inspections are drive by. Really they just want to make sure their aren't loaning money on a dump. If it looks halfway decent the inspection passes. ALl that really matters is what is on record at the courthouse. If it is 2048 then you get taxed for 2048 or whatever. The realtor is going to claim the same thing, and the mortage broker will ASSume the courthouse is correct.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
well I can tell you that most of the mortgage inspections are drive by. Really they just want to make sure their aren't loaning money on a dump. If it looks halfway decent the inspection passes. ALl that really matters is what is on record at the courthouse. If it is 2048 then you get taxed for 2048 or whatever. The realtor is going to claim the same thing, and the mortage broker will ASSume the courthouse is correct.
That has been my experience as well. Realtors always quote "as per courthouse". Any verbal remarks are puffing. Artist may have relied on verbals or a poor quality appraisal. The buyer pays for the appraisal usually. The appraiser is not supposed to even know the purchase price when he measures the property but someone (anxious realtor, owner or buyer) will usually tip him off so that things go smoothly. Smart realtors even leave a copy of the contract on the kitchen counter. If the price is wildly out of line a responsible appraiser will not over appraise it. If its out of line, renegotiation begins.
The problem is that an appraiser friend of mine told me that fewer and fewer appraisals are actually done on site. Banks rely on drive bys and courthouse records, no one wants to pay the price for a well done appraisal and the integrity level of appraisers is dropping to meet expectations of the parties. As a result there are fewer qualified appraisers available. I don't know that last statement to be true but sounds reasonable.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
well I can tell you that most of the mortgage inspections are drive by. Really they just want to make sure their aren't loaning money on a dump. If it looks halfway decent the inspection passes. ALl that really matters is what is on record at the courthouse. If it is 2048 then you get taxed for 2048 or whatever. The realtor is going to claim the same thing, and the mortage broker will ASSume the courthouse is correct.
That has been my experience as well. Realtors always quote "as per courthouse". Any verbal remarks are puffing. Artist may have relied on verbals or a poor quality appraisal. The buyer pays for the appraisal usually. The appraiser is not supposed to even know the purchase price when he measures the property but someone (anxious realtor, owner or buyer) will usually tip him off so that things go smoothly. Smart realtors even leave a copy of the contract on the kitchen counter. If the price is wildly out of line a responsible appraiser will not over appraise it. If its out of line, renegotiation begins.
The problem is that an appraiser friend of mine told me that fewer and fewer appraisals are actually done on site. Banks rely on drive bys and courthouse records, no one wants to pay the price for a well done appraisal and the integrity level of appraisers is dropping to meet expectations of the parties. As a result there are fewer qualified appraisers available. I don't know that last statement to be true but sounds reasonable.
no that is true. Ultimately the responsibility falls on the buyer. Those little free pamphlets they pass out to new buyers as a public service say on the first page "BUYER BEWARE".
Ignorance is not an excuse.
K, maybe I must not be very clear.
When ever I have bought real estate, I have had an inspection done as part it. This was required of me by my lender. The inspectors check all kinds of things from termite damage, roof, to leaky faucets, to making sure the water heater is in code. Every real estate transaction I know of has involved such an inspection.
Now I'm not saying it is the practice, but wouldn't it make sense to have "estimate sq footage" as one of the things to check? That's what I was wondering. I understand the banks appraiser is a drive by.
In the end it doesn't really matter. If he thought $1mil was a fair price and was willing to pay it for the house, then I guess it's still a fair price. Just seems odd that after paying ~$5k in fees no one checks it. Closings are such a damn scam.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
K, maybe I must not be very clear.
When ever I have bought real estate, I have had an inspection done as part it. This was required of me by my lender. The inspectors check all kinds of things from termite damage, roof, to leaky faucets, to making sure the water heater is in code. Every real estate transaction I know of has involved such an inspection.
Now I'm not saying it is the practice, but wouldn't it make sense to have "estimate sq footage" as one of the things to check? That's what I was wondering. I understand the banks appraiser is a drive by.
In the end it doesn't really matter. If he thought $1mil was a fair price and was willing to pay it for the house, then I guess it's still a fair price. Just seems odd that after paying ~$5k in fees no one checks it. Closings are such a damn scam.
The inspection is separate from the appraisal. More commonly called EMP now, (electrical, mechanical, plumbing). They would have no interest in verifying the sq. footage.
The price does matter to the mortgagor. Even though the two parties may agree to $1mil for a 75k home, the bank relies on the appraisal to make sure their loan to buy the home is backed up with a reasonable value according to comparable properties. That is where the shakiness begins. Ft.Worth loans could still be made if the appraiser isn't totally independent. In fact, I know of one made in my very neighborhood.
You can't really rely on courthouse either. When I went through my protest hearing, the guy did an appraisal and he did a measurement, but somehow he miscalculated and was 200 sq feet more than what I had. If I hadn't noticed, it would have stayed wrong, likely forever.
quote:
Originally posted by tulsa_fan
You can't really rely on courthouse either. When I went through my protest hearing, the guy did an appraisal and he did a measurement, but somehow he miscalculated and was 200 sq feet more than what I had. If I hadn't noticed, it would have stayed wrong, likely forever.
well, I had a tight donkey appraiser appraise my old home and it came up about 80 st ft short of what it said on paper. Of course he stuck by his measurement. Then he said that the builder's appraisal rounds up to the nearest half foot and he rounds to the nearest inch, hence the discrepency.