Touchy topic.
va-grant [vey-gruh nt]
noun: a person who wanders about idly and has no permanent home or employment; vagabond; tramp.
There is clearly something driving an increase in idle people loitering in and around downtown this summer. The QT at 15th and Denver was compelled by local authorities to remove the tables in front of the store and thankfully they complied.
Personally I've seen more and more people hanging out in empty lots, behind buildings, in the park at Denver and 7th, Centennial Park at Boston and 7th, or just wandering around.
I've also seen an increase in homeless people in the area (the folks with their belongings with them in carts or baggage)
We've discussed the problem before many years ago:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=6858.msg31056#msg31056 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=6858.msg31056#msg31056)
I wonder what is driving this? I have a lot of sympathy for people that are down on their luck or especially for people with untreated mental issues that drive them to the fringes of society. Unfortunately there are also people in this group that either have substance abuse problems or choose not to provide for themselves.
Anecdotally I was told by a police officer that several of the suburbs bring their transient population to downtown...I cannot confirm the veracity of this assertion. I've also been told that Iron Gate is moving out of downtown. For those that aren't familiar, Iron Gate serves around 900 free meals every day in downtown.
San Antonio has recently tackled a similar problem with some create sollutions.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/19/338895262/mental-health-cops-help-reweave-social-safety-net-in-san-antonio (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/19/338895262/mental-health-cops-help-reweave-social-safety-net-in-san-antonio)
A couple of highlights:
*They created a mental health squad in their police force
*They sent the entire police force through crisis intervention training
*Opened a restoration center to divert those with mental illness out of the penal system and into a place where they can get assistance
This part of the story really jumped out at me:
The center was the brainchild of Leon Evans, director of San Antonio's mental health department.
When he took over the department 14 years ago, Evans says not one of the county or city agencies and nonprofits that deal with mental illness was talking to another. The jails, hospitals, courts, police and mental health department all worked in separate silos.
"People who fund these services only look at their little, small piece of the pie and whether there is a return on investment," says Evans.
So, with the help of a county judge, Evans worked to get the funders together to talk about the money they were all spending on mental health. Once they stopped looking at mental health as an isolated expense, the groups realized they were spending enormous sums of money and offering poor care. Pooling their resources instead, they found, could offer significant savings.
Everyone contributed funding to create the Restoration Center. It offers a 48-hour inpatient psychiatric unit; outpatient services for psychiatric and primary care; centers for drug or alcohol detox; a 90-day recovery program for substance abuse; plus housing for people with mental illnesses, and even job training.
What can we do to stem the tide here?
What can we do to care for people in their home community?
Should Downtown be a dumping ground for the county's unwanted humans?
How do we train Tulsans not to give handouts to grifters?
How can we care for the people that really need our help?
Quote from: carltonplace on September 02, 2014, 02:09:19 PM
...
I've also been told that Iron Gate is moving out of downtown. For those that aren't familiar, Iron Gate serves around 900 free meals every day in downtown.
...
Iron Gate is looking at options as they've outgrown the space in the current church facility. They are looking at options in and around downtown. From my understand they ultimately want to stay downtown as that is where the majority of their clients are located. That doesn't just mean homeless or transient, they also serve downtown workers who are in a tough spot. Most of the downtown stakeholders are aware of their situation and some are working to help. It will be interesting to see where they end up.
I was curious about the recent uptick myself. I wasn't sure if more people were busing in here from other parts of the country since we have a low u/e rate or what was going on.
The mental health issue is our chickens coming home to roost since it was decided segregating them from society in mental health facilities was cruel and or unfair. While it's a noble idea homelessness, chronic substance abuse, and violent crime has been the result. Many are people who might otherwise thrive in a structured environment with supervision.
What is odd is that it seems to have happened in just a matter of weeks, at least in the park in front of DECOPOLIS. Occasionally you might see 3 or 4 here and there. But just a short time ago you started seeing a whole different "crowd" with 20-30 people, and a lot of them younger. It's when you get that crowd that they start making a mess with litter (even though there are trash cans readily available) and getting into arguments and fights. These aren't people who are "down on their luck" or who have had some financial hardship, these are people who have drug abuse and or mental problems.
If you mean in recent years, that is a trend.
If you mean in recent months, that is called the weather. People stay out on the streets when it is warm.
Downtown development is paying off! You invest in the area, that's where people are heading.
http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155590/i-dont-have-change
It has gotten much, much worse in the past couple of months. We have a lot of problems with them around the store compared to when we first opened.
Also, I dropped by our Downtown store on Sunday night. It was dark (no street lights at all) and a tourist came in and said it was outright creepy. We're not going anywhere, our store does awesome, but people better start caring about the image Downtown is getting our it won't ever be the attraction we want it to be.
Quote from: YoungTulsan on September 02, 2014, 04:36:37 PM
If you mean in recent years, that is a trend.
If you mean in recent months, that is called the weather. People stay out on the streets when it is warm.
It was not this bad last year.
Quote from: TheArtist on September 02, 2014, 04:28:14 PM
What is odd is that it seems to have happened in just a matter of weeks, at least in the park in front of DECOPOLIS. Occasionally you might see 3 or 4 here and there. But just a short time ago you started seeing a whole different "crowd" with 20-30 people, and a lot of them younger. It's when you get that crowd that they start making a mess with litter (even though there are trash cans readily available) and getting into arguments and fights. These aren't people who are "down on their luck" or who have had some financial hardship, these are people who have drug abuse and or mental problems.
And/or are complete thugs. But they get kicked out of the park they just linger in other areas.
I haven't really noticed any more than usual downtown but maybe I've been in the wrong places. Sounds like they are more concentrated around the parks. I have though noticed more homeless in recent trips to the downtowns in OKC and Denver. Maybe it's a nationwide trend?
My office is across from Iron Gate. That place is packed on a regular basis these days. I did see a couple of weeks ago that animal control was parking there at breakfast time to pick up the unleashed dogs.
The SW corner of 6th and Cincinatti had a pedestrian area (bus stop maybe) that was recently ripped out. It seemed to attract some interesting crowds.
I hate to bring up "quality vs quantity" but I've noticed with the increase in traffic, I have seen a lot more problems. I walked around a man who was sitting on the ground peeing on himself. Saw someone else having seizures, possibly due to dehydration or detox. Saw a woman who seemed to be wearing nothing but an ill-fitting dress who seemed to be offering services to passersby.
Quite colorful crowds.
I noticed a large crowd by the Librarium today.
Saw a hooker and her pimp proposition a guy in a car on his way out of DT on Cincinnati at rush hour last Friday.
Big groups gather at the concrete park on 7th.
Quote from: sgrizzle on September 02, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
My office is across from Iron Gate. That place is packed on a regular basis these days. I did see a couple of weeks ago that animal control was parking there at breakfast time to pick up the unleashed dogs.
The SW corner of 6th and Cincinatti had a pedestrian area (bus stop maybe) that was recently ripped out. It seemed to attract some interesting crowds.
I hate to bring up "quality vs quantity" but I've noticed with the increase in traffic, I have seen a lot more problems. I walked around a man who was sitting on the ground peeing on himself. Saw someone else having seizures, possibly due to dehydration or detox. Saw a woman who seemed to be wearing nothing but an ill-fitting dress who seemed to be offering services to passersby.
Quite colorful crowds.
Surely you thought to call EMS for the guy having seizures, right?
Quote from: Townsend on September 02, 2014, 10:52:33 PM
I noticed a large crowd by the Librarium today.
Saw a hooker and her pimp proposition a guy in a car on his way out of DT on Cincinnati at rush hour last Friday.
Big groups gather at the concrete park on 7th.
Seen the same. Lots of "entrepreneurs" working in broad daylight. Also at the apartment building parking lot across the street.
I know the weather is a contributing factor, but something else is going on. I highly doubt that all of these people are Tulsa natives, as Conan mentioned our UER is fairly low and mortgage defaults are not unusually high.
Quote from: carltonplace on September 03, 2014, 10:34:24 AM
I know the weather is a contributing factor, but something else is going on. I highly doubt that all of these people are Tulsa natives, as Conan mentioned our UER is fairly low and mortgage defaults are not unusually high.
Perhaps we are providing some resource(s) in that area that they value? ;)
They have been run out of somewhere else......
Quote from: Conan71 on September 02, 2014, 11:54:24 PM
Surely you thought to call EMS for the guy having seizures, right?
All the other homeless people had already pulled out their Android phones and called.
Quote from: sgrizzle on September 03, 2014, 03:01:05 PM
All the other homeless people had already pulled out their Android phones and called.
(http://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Facebook-thumbs-up.jpg)
I hang out in DT on Friday nights and I thought I was the only one to notice the big increase in the homeless. Last weekend I had at least half a dozen people beg me for money. There were crowds of them around the bus station, which is unfortunately close to Fassler Hall. I saw them in on virtually every street as I drove out of DT as well.
Honestly, it's making me not want to go downtown anymore. Most of these people are fairly benign, but every now and then you get that slightly rouge character who steps pointedly in your way when he asks for change and looks like he's sizing you up. I feel like I've come pretty darn close to being mugged a few times over the last month downtown, but if I feel they might be aggressive I shrug them off aggressively myself and practically jog away.
I guess I'll stick to BWW's and the South Tulsa pubs until it gets cold out. Hopefully that will do something...
No there really is definitely a difference downtown recently. Before I had no problem with the situation, now it really could hurt my business. It IS harming my business. I just left the shop tonight and there were about 10 homeless people right across the street from my shop.
I passed a guy yesterday afternoon relieving himself on a tree right outside Billy's on Main. It was 4:30 p.m. Brazen.
Quote from: sgrizzle on September 03, 2014, 03:01:05 PM
All the other homeless people had already pulled out their Android Obama phones and called.
FIFY ;)
Quote from: CoffeeBean on September 03, 2014, 10:18:34 PM
I passed a guy yesterday afternoon relieving himself on a tree right outside Billy's on Main. It was 4:30 p.m. Brazen.
As an ex-volunteer fireman, better a tree than a fire hydrant.
;D
Quote from: shavethewhales on September 03, 2014, 06:18:04 PM
I hang out in DT on Friday nights and I thought I was the only one to notice the big increase in the homeless. Last weekend I had at least half a dozen people beg me for money. There were crowds of them around the bus station, which is unfortunately close to Fassler Hall. I saw them in on virtually every street as I drove out of DT as well.
Honestly, it's making me not want to go downtown anymore. Most of these people are fairly benign, but every now and then you get that slightly rouge character who steps pointedly in your way when he asks for change and looks like he's sizing you up. I feel like I've come pretty darn close to being mugged a few times over the last month downtown, but if I feel they might be aggressive I shrug them off aggressively myself and practically jog away.
I guess I'll stick to BWW's and the South Tulsa pubs until it gets cold out. Hopefully that will do something...
We went to a concert at the Cain's last week and were approached close to the door by a very large man saying "you
have to give me money to get home." He obviously saw that my wife was a bit alarmed, and got closer, so I laughed and told him politely "I'm
sure you want to pick someone else to talk to." He backed off, and one of the Cain's employees got in his face and told him to GTFO.
I used to have an office down at 15th and Denver int the early 00's. Homeless traffic was always bad in the summer time. In the winter most of them took a bus South. They're snowbirds.
Baltimore was the only place I frequented that had a real year-round and regular population of homeless panhandlers. At the time (late 90s) Baltimore provided them with 3 hots and a cot, and didn't really pester them for panhandling or "performing." They got a reputation for being the most progressive city when it came to the treatment of homeless.
There was a guy I knew named Charlie who was in charge of trees and landscape for the city of Baltimore. He used to joke about perfecting new genetic strains of common shrubs & trees that were urine tolerant. It's been a while since I've had business there, but I heard the problem had got much worse after they decided to provide housing vouchers, causing a huge influx of new homeless to travel to Baltimore in hopes of getting free houses.
My cousin and his wife live up near Denver now and at the last reunion told us that the homeless population there has skyrocketed since the legalization of pot. Where many of these folks used to panhandle or perform to sustain their various habits, now they just sit around and get really high. Last year he and his family moved farther out into the suburbs, but now the homeless population has moved there, as well as the resort communities.
I'm all for the legalization of pot (or any other personal choice). If folks want to limit themselves through chemicals, that should be their choice. The problem comes when you make such activities legal in one community, but not in all communities. You naturally get a disproportionate population influx, of folks that seek that chemical. It will be interesting to see how it begins to shape politics and production in that state.
Ah, if I only owned a Frito-Lay distributorship in Denver. :D
Quote from: Gaspar on September 04, 2014, 09:17:39 AM
I used to have an office down at 15th and Denver int the early 00's.
Closest QT to the blood services.
Quote from: Townsend on September 04, 2014, 12:37:47 PM
Closest QT to the blood services.
Bingo! . . . and if you ever frequent that QT you will notice lots of fragrant folks using the Red Plasma Services Visa cards to purchase their liquid refreshments and cigarettes.
Quote from: Gaspar on September 04, 2014, 12:47:38 PM
Bingo! . . . and if you ever frequent that QT you will notice lots of fragrant folks using the Red Plasma Services Visa cards to purchase their liquid refreshments and cigarettes.
They allow people that smoke to give blood? :o
Quote from: TheArtist on September 04, 2014, 05:19:23 PM
They allow people that smoke to give blood? :o
nutshell: you're eligible to donate
plasma if you don't have any communicable diseases and you can pass some basic physical
http://www.biolifeplasma.com/current-donors/health-nutrition.html
- * Avoid drinking alcoholic beverages the night before and the day of your donation, and at least four hours after your donation.
- * Avoid smoking for at least 30 minutes after the completion of your donation.
Heck, sounds like you can smoke up while donating.
Smoking and donating
blood is also A-OK
QuoteThe American Red Cross and other major blood-bank institutions generally don't prohibit you from smoking cigarettes before donating blood. But some blood banks advise that you not smoke immediately after giving blood. If you smoke right after donating blood, you'll increase your risk of fainting or becoming dizzy,
In college, it was a race to see how quick you could start drinking after donating during a blood drive. Cheap date.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 04, 2014, 11:17:44 PM
In college, it was a race to see how quick you could start drinking after donating during a blood drive. Cheap date.
FIFY
Something different is going on. I've been in downtown for a long time and I've seen the seasonal increases before.
While I do see an increase in the number of actual homeless people, the groups out side of the Artists shop is different: they don't appear (on the surface) to look like they've been on the street for very long. They seem showered and laundered and they don't have any personal effects with them. They are just hanging out, throwing garbage everywhere.
Quote from: carltonplace on September 05, 2014, 10:24:59 AM
Something different is going on. I've been in downtown for a long time and I've seen the seasonal increases before.
While I do see an increase in the number of actual homeless people, the groups out side of the Artists shop is different: they don't appear (on the surface) to look like they've been on the street for very long. They seem showered and laundered and they don't have any personal effects with them. They are just hanging out, throwing garbage everywhere.
Probably worth looking at data then. Unemployment numbers have gone down (in the new way that government likes to calculate them) but the actual number of unemployed adults has remained static, and in many areas increased. Part of this is due to an aging "boomer" population, but there have also be dramatic increases in the number of SS disability claims as long-term unemployment benefits run out. Unfortunately, I know some attorneys that have just been swimming in this for the last few years. Disability has never been easier to acquire because there are a flood of new "mood" disorders and other conditions that can now qualify.
Much like a family member of my wife's (that I am not particularly proud of), if you are 43 years old and take a .25 Xanax a day for anxiety, you can qualify for full SS disability with a letter from your shrink (or your attorney's shrink) to the SS admin telling them that "work gives you panic attacks." Your attorney will then get up to $6,000, and his/your shrink is "reimbursed" for his consult.
According to SS admin in 2011, nearly 187,000 Oklahomans of working age received disability benefits — a 73% increase since 2000. http://newsok.com/oklahoma-watch-disability-programs-enrollment-continues-to-grow/article/3806795
According to the latest published statistics that number has risen nationwide by about 10% from 2011-2012 (last year for statistics).
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2012/di_asr12.xlsx
Locally, we can see the breakdown of where those recipients reside here, so it seems that there are quite a few downtown. http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/oasdi_zip/2012/ok.pdf
It would be interesting to find out how many of these folks are actually housed, funded, and fed, but just don't have anything to occupy their time?
It would be a great investigative report for some ambitious local news personality!(http://media.tumblr.com/545dc98029aac839c3bc970fd103f0f8/tumblr_mtn4j7WM761shax8so1_400.gif)
At the last Deco District meeting someone said it's approximately 40% that actually have housing, etc. but are there for free food. The new police task force came to the Deco District meeting this last week and said there is actually an abundance of services in Tulsa. Nobody is lacking help, there is a plethora of services and help, if they want to avail themselves of it. As for food for example they say there is plenty and that they often find half eaten free food wrappers and such thrown on the ground. A good number of the people come downtown for the free food and have housing and just to get into trouble selling drugs etc. often to the "real" homeless who have mental and or drug problems. All in all sounds like a sad and frustrating situation.
Quote from: TheArtist on September 06, 2014, 07:49:34 AM
At the last Deco District meeting someone said it's approximately 40% that actually have housing, etc. but are there for free food. The new police task force came to the Deco District meeting this last week and said there is actually an abundance of services in Tulsa. Nobody is lacking help, there is a plethora of services and help, if they want to avail themselves of it. As for food for example they say there is plenty and that they often find half eaten free food wrappers and such thrown on the ground. A good number of the people come downtown for the free food and have housing and just to get into trouble selling drugs etc. often to the "real" homeless who have mental and or drug problems. All in all sounds like a sad and frustrating situation.
Perhaps if we stop feeding and housing them, they will go away? Perhaps to Baltimore, or Key West? ( only a few people will get that)
Quote from: Gaspar on September 08, 2014, 05:55:03 AM
Perhaps if we stop feeding and housing them, they will go away? Perhaps to Baltimore, or Key West? ( only a few people will get that)
Key West was a nice place to visit in the 60s and 70s.
Quote from: TheArtist on September 06, 2014, 07:49:34 AM
At the last Deco District meeting someone said it's approximately 40% that actually have housing, etc. but are there for free food. The new police task force came to the Deco District meeting this last week and said there is actually an abundance of services in Tulsa. Nobody is lacking help, there is a plethora of services and help, if they want to avail themselves of it. As for food for example they say there is plenty and that they often find half eaten free food wrappers and such thrown on the ground. A good number of the people come downtown for the free food and have housing and just to get into trouble selling drugs etc. often to the "real" homeless who have mental and or drug problems. All in all sounds like a sad and frustrating situation.
Thank you, that does make sense.
I noticed on Sunday that the park across the street from your store is now empty...and generally downtown seemed to have cleared and we were back to the regular set of homeless and grifters.
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 08, 2014, 07:24:54 AM
Key West was a nice place to visit in the 60s and 70s.
We stop there regularly when we go no cruises. Great place for a pub-crawl. Unbelievable numbers of homeless in the winter.
They may have moved south. There was a guy holding a sign asking for money this morning at 101st and Riverside and over the weekend I saw another guy with a sign at 96th and Riverside that was not just standing there but was walking up to cars stopped in traffic trying to get people to roll down their windows. He stared at me but I wasn't having any of it. I don't know that I have ever seen panhandlers in that area before.
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 08, 2014, 07:24:54 AM
Key West was a nice place to visit in the 60s and 70s.
You must have been there while in the military, and stayed half (or more) "lit" the whole time. Many friends ex-military testify, over many decades - Key West has been Key West SINCE the 60's and 70's....not that bad...well, except for a kid-centric vacation! I gotta get there - bucket list item!!
When you need a little bit of "escape time", go here and click web cams....in the evening, there is music!
http://sloppyjoes.com/index.php/cam_lp/
http://www.greenparrot.com/key-west-webcams
Quote from: swake on September 08, 2014, 10:16:18 AM
They may have moved south. There was a guy holding a sign asking for money this morning at 101st and Riverside and over the weekend I saw another guy with a sign at 96th and Riverside that was not just standing there but was walking up to cars stopped in traffic trying to get people to roll down their windows. He stared at me but I wasn't having any of it. I don't know that I have ever seen panhandlers in that area before.
I saw a hobo camp just east of the river trail between 71st & 81st yesterday. Dude even had his S-10 pick up parked next to the area where he had his tent.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 08, 2014, 11:20:24 AM
I saw a hobo camp just east of the river trail between 71st & 81st yesterday. Dude even had his S-10 pick up parked next to the area where he had his tent.
Urban campground.
Quote from: Gaspar on September 08, 2014, 11:30:37 AM
Urban campground.
We have come full circle - this centuries' Hoovervilles!
For the high school graduates amongst us - quick history moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 08, 2014, 03:32:11 PM
We have come full circle - this centuries' Hoovervilles!
For the high school graduates amongst us - quick history moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooverville
They are now called Obamaville.
I found out that animal control isn't taking the off-leash pets away, they are handing out dog food.
Iron Bowl?
Quote from: Gaspar on September 08, 2014, 07:24:19 PM
They are now called Obamaville.
Naw...still Hooverville's...it was mostly during Bush's time when those increases occurred - from 2000 to 2011. 8/11 th's of it.
Quote from: carltonplace on September 08, 2014, 09:03:38 AM
Thank you, that does make sense.
I noticed on Sunday that the park across the street from your store is now empty...and generally downtown seemed to have cleared and we were back to the regular set of homeless and grifters.
You must have missed them. They leave when the police come and gradually drift back. I work across the street, was there all day Sunday (8:30 am to 6 pm), and they were there most of the day. There are also some scary people. There are some others who clearly need help. Something very strange is going on and I believe the city, or our citizens, need to do something soon.
The main question I have is why they keep coming back. KOTV's story suggested water and shade. That may be part of it, but I don't think that's why the really scary folks show up. No one goes near the fountains anymore.
My guess would be drugs. There are a couple of guys that people come to visit. It's not always the same guy, but it's the same visitors coming to see the guy. There are a couple of bald guys who don't wear shirts that often appear high -- one certainly was when I took off Sunday night, as he stumbled through the intersection at 6th and Main. My favorite is a guy who looks like a brunette Seth Rogen who sometimes pushes a stroller, but not with children.
The police seem to have limited their involvement to running them off. Today, three cars pulled up about 4 pm. One guy walked up and they arrested him. If they had paid attention, there were a couple of guys, perhaps just out of their line of sight, who were handing out something. The vagrants moved around the corner of the adjacent building (which would appear to have been trespassing), but the police didn't seem to care and seemed happy to have some kid in custody who handed himself over. The police talk to a kid with an afro for awhile, but then moved on. That same kid talked to the mainstays who came back about 15 minutes after the police left. One guy was over by the sign near the stage, handing out his wares. He also left a pile of trash.
I can't emphasize enough how dangerous this group appears. They aren't your usual desperate panhandlers. They are often aggressive. They will argue with you. They often seem high. They bring random weird people with them. I'm really worried about what happens when one of them brings a gun.
It seems like the efforts have been very ineffective thus far. These guys keep coming back. It wouldn't be hard to put up some video cameras on the neighboring buildings and watch this. Maybe put a tail on the leaders. Or go after these guys for serial littering. DO SOMETHING. I don't want to get close, but my guess is that it's a drug thing. Why else would you always go back to the same point where the police will always come back in a couple of hours?
Another idea would be to arrange for people to hang out in the park and take all the benches so these guys have nowhere to sit. That may seem crazy, but I think it may be more effective than waiting on the police to do something. At the very least, it may create the impression that people use the park and maybe they should leave the area.
The press coverage on this issue has been underwhelming. The panhandlers have been increasingly worse at least since the first of the year. There were some incidents at 5th and Main when the fountain was under construction. TPD had a car there the next couple of days and that ran them off. But they were back soon after. At one point, we saw the building next to ours broken into. We called the police and they didn't show up for a long time.
Several weeks back there was an article in the paper about a meeting where the police tried to tell the crowd that downtown was safer statistically. THat may be true, but I believe there is a great deal of unreported crime. And if we want to develop our central business district, and if we want visitors (much less life long Tulsans) to feel safe, we have to get serious about this. This is a bad deal and makes a park that we invested a great deal of time and public money in worthless, if not an actual crime den. I remember when that park was a parking lot. I know it's gauche on here, but in hindsight, maybe things were better when that was a parking lot and not an attractive nuisance for dangerous crime. Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys.
Quote from: Gold on September 09, 2014, 12:00:59 AM
You must have missed them. They leave when the police come and gradually drift back. I work across the street, was there all day Sunday (8:30 am to 6 pm), and they were there most of the day. There are also some scary people. There are some others who clearly need help. Something very strange is going on and I believe the city, or our citizens, need to do something soon.
The main question I have is why they keep coming back. KOTV's story suggested water and shade. That may be part of it, but I don't think that's why the really scary folks show up. No one goes near the fountains anymore.
My guess would be drugs. There are a couple of guys that people come to visit. It's not always the same guy, but it's the same visitors coming to see the guy. There are a couple of bald guys who don't wear shirts that often appear high -- one certainly was when I took off Sunday night, as he stumbled through the intersection at 6th and Main. My favorite is a guy who looks like a brunette Seth Rogen who sometimes pushes a stroller, but not with children.
The police seem to have limited their involvement to running them off. Today, three cars pulled up about 4 pm. One guy walked up and they arrested him. If they had paid attention, there were a couple of guys, perhaps just out of their line of sight, who were handing out something. The vagrants moved around the corner of the adjacent building (which would appear to have been trespassing), but the police didn't seem to care and seemed happy to have some kid in custody who handed himself over. The police talk to a kid with an afro for awhile, but then moved on. That same kid talked to the mainstays who came back about 15 minutes after the police left. One guy was over by the sign near the stage, handing out his wares. He also left a pile of trash.
I can't emphasize enough how dangerous this group appears. They aren't your usual desperate panhandlers. They are often aggressive. They will argue with you. They often seem high. They bring random weird people with them. I'm really worried about what happens when one of them brings a gun.
It seems like the efforts have been very ineffective thus far. These guys keep coming back. It wouldn't be hard to put up some video cameras on the neighboring buildings and watch this. Maybe put a tail on the leaders. Or go after these guys for serial littering. DO SOMETHING. I don't want to get close, but my guess is that it's a drug thing. Why else would you always go back to the same point where the police will always come back in a couple of hours?
Another idea would be to arrange for people to hang out in the park and take all the benches so these guys have nowhere to sit. That may seem crazy, but I think it may be more effective than waiting on the police to do something. At the very least, it may create the impression that people use the park and maybe they should leave the area.
The press coverage on this issue has been underwhelming. The panhandlers have been increasingly worse at least since the first of the year. There were some incidents at 5th and Main when the fountain was under construction. TPD had a car there the next couple of days and that ran them off. But they were back soon after. At one point, we saw the building next to ours broken into. We called the police and they didn't show up for a long time.
Several weeks back there was an article in the paper about a meeting where the police tried to tell the crowd that downtown was safer statistically. THat may be true, but I believe there is a great deal of unreported crime. And if we want to develop our central business district, and if we want visitors (much less life long Tulsans) to feel safe, we have to get serious about this. This is a bad deal and makes a park that we invested a great deal of time and public money in worthless, if not an actual crime den. I remember when that park was a parking lot. I know it's gauche on here, but in hindsight, maybe things were better when that was a parking lot and not an attractive nuisance for dangerous crime. Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys.
Watch closely and see if it the same group of cops coming around all the time. Might be a business enterprise of sorts....
Quote from: Gold on September 09, 2014, 12:00:59 AM
...Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys.
Welcome to the forum. Nice first post.
Too many homeless, maybe it's time to do "sweeps" and round them up in buses and take 'em away. This is also a safety issue and a crime issue too. Homeless camps are popping up all over the city.
Services are expensive. Police contact is also expensive.
SouthWest "Wanna Get Away" fares are cheap and some come with free drink coupons!
To Chicago (Midway), IL starting at $139 one-way
To Dallas (Love Field), TX starting at $72 one-way
To Denver, CO starting at $121 one-way
To Houston (Hobby), TX starting at $96 one-way
To Las Vegas, NV starting at $168 one-way
To Phoenix, AZ starting at $168 one-way
To St. Louis, MO starting at $94 one-way
We could put together some packages where they get free airfare to Denver and a voucher for The Frosted Leaf
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I hear there were some arrests this afternoon. When I left the office this evening, there were fewer people in the park than normal and for a time, an attorney I know worked on his laptop over there. (Though for some reason, people keeping searching on the ground and in bushes for something, including the security and the homeless). They shut the fountain off for some time and that may have helped. The new security group showed up and cleaned or something. So today was better than the past several.
I posted some several years back. You may recall my parodies of the work of one Friendly Bear. My account got deleted or reset or something.
Activating parks is the key to keeping any kind of criminal or homeless element out. Look at Guthrie Green as an example even though it is just a few blocks from the homeless services. Unfortunately Centennial Green doesn't have very much foot traffic during the day, and few "eyes on the park" except from the office buildings across the street with a blank wall and surface lot on one side and parking garage on the other. I do see that area eventually building up but until then it will be a quiet park. Maybe encourage food trucks to park there at lunch. Denver had a similar problem at one of their downtown parks and the food trucks helped by bringing in office workers that normally don't go there, and causing the drifters to go elsewhere. Increased security helps as well, and it sounds like that has been happening.
Quote from: Gold on September 09, 2014, 07:11:40 PM
I hear there were some arrests this afternoon. When I left the office this evening, there were fewer people in the park than normal and for a time, an attorney I know worked on his laptop over there. (Though for some reason, people keeping searching on the ground and in bushes for something, including the security and the homeless). They shut the fountain off for some time and that may have helped. The new security group showed up and cleaned or something. So today was better than the past several.
I posted some several years back. You may recall my parodies of the work of one Friendly Bear. My account got deleted or reset or something.
I rode my bike through DT after the Drillers game last night and saw very few people wandering the streets. Centennial Park was empty.
I drove by around that time that night and there were three guys sitting in the back of the park.
"Security" came through a couple of times today and tried to do something. Fat Seth Rogen was back with the stroller. The usual suspects were all there after 4 pm.
TW tonight is saying they also have a curfew in the Plaza of the Americas.
The task force has been doing a good job lately at keeping an eye on Centennial Park, especially during daytime hours. The vagrants will begin to congregate there, but shortly thereafter will begin to leave once the police show up.
City changes curfew at Plaza of the Americas park to curb illicit behavior
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-changes-curfew-at-plaza-of-the-americas-park-to/article_cd0c0d5f-9586-5b42-94f4-84e6a3e9a5f2.html
QuoteThe Tulsa Parks and Recreation Board has extended the curfew hours for Plaza of the Americas park, the latest step in the city's effort to clean up the downtown property and eliminate illicit behavior there.
The new curfew hours, adopted Tuesday, are 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. The curfew for city parks is typically 11 p.m. to 5 a.m.
"We want people to walk around and utilize downtown without being worried about it," said Parks Department Director Lucy Dolman, who sits on the park board.
The board also agreed to ensure enforcement of ordinances that prohibit or limit vehicle access to the park, selling or handing out food and other items in the park, and going to the bathroom outside in the park.
Part of the problem, officials said, is that Plaza of the Americas — at Seventh Street and Denver Avenue — had become a place where people could go to receive free food. City ordinances do not allow food to be sold or given away at a park without a permit.
Jan Vaughan, Plaza of the Americas Neighborhood Association president, requested the curfew change at Tuesday's park board meeting.
She told board members that from her nearby apartment she has seen people urinating and copulating in the park. Transients have also been known to sleep in the park overnight and make their way into her apartment complex, Vaughan said.
"I think that it is a very good (decision) to try to clean up the park and make it safer for residents," she said of the board's decision.
Tom Baker, manager of the Downtown Coordinating Council, said the curfew change is one of several steps being taken by local agencies to address problems at the park.
"The issue came up a few weeks ago," he said. "We had really unacceptable levels of trash and debris left in the park."
Baker responded by bringing together representatives of the police and parks departments, the mental health community and the Downtown Coordinating Council.
The goal is not simply to clean up the mess, Baker said, but to make sure the park is maintained properly going forward.
Many of the transients in the park are not homeless but instead have come into downtown to prey "on what has been the normal homeless," Baker said.
The city is committed to taking care of its homeless, he added, but plans to hold accountable those who are not homeless and choose to break the law.
Tulsa Police Maj. Travis Yates said he was proud of the collaborative approach used to address the park's problems. Yates, who leads a four-officer team dedicated to downtown issues, said some of the park dwellers had become known for their aggressive panhandling.
"That is the approach we are taking downtown," Yates said of the cooperation among agencies. "I think probably the most important thing about that is that it is going to solve the issue for the long term."
Quote from: saintnicster on September 11, 2014, 11:30:04 AM
City changes curfew at Plaza of the Americas park to curb illicit behavior
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-changes-curfew-at-plaza-of-the-americas-park-to/article_cd0c0d5f-9586-5b42-94f4-84e6a3e9a5f2.html
That broad-brush approach seems to include banning leaflets, so it wont make it past the first court challenge. But hey, trampling the constitution in order to appear tough on crime looks good on TV.
...and a 7pm curfew? Get real. We're not Ferguson just yet.
QuoteShe told board members that from her nearby apartment she has seen people urinating and copulating in the park.
I wonder how long she watched.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 11, 2014, 03:01:08 PM
I wonder how long she watched.
Again, and again, and again, until she told them to stop.
icky. homeless porn is gross even if it's free. >:(
Quote from: patric on September 11, 2014, 01:30:55 PM
That broad-brush approach seems to include banning leaflets, so it wont make it past the first court challenge. But hey, trampling the constitution in order to appear tough on crime looks good on TV.
...and a 7pm curfew? Get real. We're not Ferguson just yet.
We did that phase in 1968. Coming full circle in 3....2....1....