Hi. Can anyone tell me what taxes the city of Tulsa gets from local casino operations?
Thanks in advance!
Quote from: TMS on June 09, 2014, 10:36:40 PM
Hi. Can anyone tell me what taxes the city of Tulsa gets from local casino operations?
Thanks in advance!
The casinos are on reserved land and not legally in Tulsa.
If anything they drain potential revenue from the city.....
Quote from: Breadburner on June 10, 2014, 07:30:14 AM
If anything they drain potential revenue from the city.....
A large actual drain.
The casinos are on Indian Trust land technically owned by Uncle Sam or the benefit of the tribe. Tulsa gets nothing. In fact, even Oklahoma law only applies there to the extent the tribe wants it ton...
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 10, 2014, 12:32:01 PM
The casinos are on Indian Trust land technically owned by Uncle Sam or the benefit of the tribe. Tulsa gets nothing. In fact, even Oklahoma law only applies there to the extent the tribe wants it to...
Not even zoning laws apply, yet the taxpayers are expected to provide infrastructure.
Quote from: patric on June 10, 2014, 01:47:42 PM
Not even zoning laws apply, yet the taxpayers are expected to provide infrastructure.
That's because they are a sovereign nation. And Tulsa is still thrilled to provide that infrastructure, 'cause of all the tourist dollars it brings in to the surrounding areas....
Another goofball rationalization related to "growth for growth's sake"....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 10, 2014, 02:24:36 PM
That's because they are a sovereign nation. And Tulsa is still thrilled to provide that infrastructure, 'cause of all the tourist dollars it brings in to the surrounding areas....
Another goofball rationalization related to "growth for growth's sake"....
???
Tourist dollars to surrounding areas? They gamble, eat, drink, watch shows then gas up their RV at the tribal gas stop on their way off the property.
Under the model gaming compact adopted a number of years ago by Oklahoma voters, tribes can enter into a gaming compact with the State of Oklahoma to offer Class III gaming (table games, etc.). The compact provides a revenue percentage pay out to the State from Class III games. Cities and counties do not get any of this money and cannot collect any sales tax on any transactions at Indian casinos.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 10, 2014, 03:04:34 PM
???
Tourist dollars to surrounding areas? They gamble, eat, drink, watch shows then gas up their RV at the tribal gas stop on their way off the property.
Exactly!! My whole point about "growth for the sake of growth's sake".
Sales taxes from purchases made by employees of the casinos. property taxes from the homes owned by employees of casinos...
Quote from: guido911 on June 11, 2014, 04:55:26 PM
Sales taxes from purchases made by employees of the casinos. property taxes from the homes owned by employees of casinos...
Unless they live in Indian housing and blow all their disposable income at the Indian smoke shops and Indian banks (casinos).
Quote from: guido911 on June 11, 2014, 04:55:26 PM
Sales taxes from purchases made by employees of the casinos. property taxes from the homes owned by employees of casinos...
Have only known one casino employee - a nephew - and he was minimum wage. Couldn't afford house.
I could be wrong but I believe they voluntarily pay into the hotel/motel tax that funds the Convention & Visitors Bureau.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 11, 2014, 10:12:52 PM
Have only known one casino employee - a nephew - and he was minimum wage. Couldn't afford house.
Minimum wage for the tribes, at least around here, is higher than the federal minimum wage. For the Cherokee Nation it's $9.50 and for the Creeks I think it's $10.
Quote from: guido911 on June 11, 2014, 04:55:26 PM
Sales taxes from purchases made by employees of the casinos. property taxes from the homes owned by employees of casinos...
That same logic applies to all government jobs. Particularly locally funded jobs. The casino sucks up revenue from the local economy and distributes it around the region to employees/members. So we should raise taxes and hire more local government so people can buy houses. Yay growth!
I would be interested to hear an honest economic impact assessment of the casinos. Moving money around does help the economy, but I'm fuzzy on the actual effect.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 12, 2014, 09:27:33 AM
That same logic applies to all government jobs. Particularly locally funded jobs. The casino sucks up revenue from the local economy and distributes it around the region to employees/members. So we should raise taxes and hire more local government so people can buy houses. Yay growth!
I would be interested to hear an honest economic impact assessment of the casinos. Moving money around does help the economy, but I'm fuzzy on the actual effect.
I would like to see a detailed analysis of the economic impact of Indian gaming on the Tulsa economy that takes into account the siphoning effect v. generation of new economic activity (seems like a great project for the TU or OSU economics department). I would at least like to see a realistic estimate of the gaming revenues of the local casinos broken down by local players v. out-of-town players. Everything I've seen is a pretty high level view of the economic impact State-wide or by individual tribes without consideration of any impact on other local venues. While it is undeniable that through construction activity, employment and vendor purchases the three local Indian casinos generate a lot of economic activity in Tulsa, it is unclear how much of that activity would have occurred anyway in the taxable economy.
Quote from: swake on June 12, 2014, 09:01:15 AM
Minimum wage for the tribes, at least around here, is higher than the federal minimum wage. For the Cherokee Nation it's $9.50 and for the Creeks I think it's $10.
Wouldn't surprise me - he never said a number, just said "minimum wage". Either way, he can't afford a house, though. Cherokee has housing assistance and I think he is on their list....it is an excellent plan for low income Cherokee people!
Quote from: DTowner on June 12, 2014, 10:20:10 AM
I would like to see a detailed analysis of the economic impact of Indian gaming on the Tulsa economy that takes into account the siphoning effect v. generation of new economic activity (seems like a great project for the TU or OSU economics department). I would at least like to see a realistic estimate of the gaming revenues of the local casinos broken down by local players v. out-of-town players. Everything I've seen is a pretty high level view of the economic impact State-wide or by individual tribes without consideration of any impact on other local venues. While it is undeniable that through construction activity, employment and vendor purchases the three local Indian casinos generate a lot of economic activity in Tulsa, it is unclear how much of that activity would have occurred anyway in the taxable economy.
Since all the employees and most of the money stays local the casinos are a lot better than most businesses like Target or Best Buy even though we get sales taxes from them. The real giant non-tax paying leech is Amazon, and companies like them. No local employees, no taxes paid. They kill brick and mortar stores and provide nothing in return.
Quote from: swake on June 12, 2014, 12:02:43 PM
Since all the employees and most of the money stays local the casinos are a lot better than most businesses like Target or Best Buy even though we get sales taxes from them. The real giant non-tax paying leech is Amazon, and companies like them. No local employees, no taxes paid. They kill brick and mortar stores and provide nothing in return.
We get sales tax, property tax, as well as the incomes of those who work at big box stores. Seems like that's an advantage over casinos. I would assume profits from the River Spirit, Osage, and Hardrock are spread throughout tribal areas via health care and other industries, not primarily Tulsa proper.
I think the city could ticket the people leaving River Spirit at 7am for DUI and PI...at least the folks I see.
Only I doubt the city would ever collect and those folks would need to stay at a City/State corrections facility due to non-payment.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 12, 2014, 09:27:33 AM
That same logic applies to all government jobs. Particularly locally funded jobs. The casino sucks up revenue from the local economy and distributes it around the region to employees/members. So we should raise taxes and hire more local government so people can buy houses. Yay growth!
I would be interested to hear an honest economic impact assessment of the casinos. Moving money around does help the economy, but I'm fuzzy on the actual effect.
Logic? It's a fact. The thread was about casinos and taxes, and there are taxes from these entities that make it into Tulsa. Tax dollars that perhaps would not exist but for the casinos. Now, an impact analysis is an entirely different matter. I am no fan of casinos or gambling. Ruins families and other nastiness. The only casino I can recall entering, other than passing through to get to somewhere else, would be on a cruise ship.
Quote from: swake on June 12, 2014, 12:02:43 PM
Since all the employees and most of the money stays local the casinos are a lot better than most businesses like Target or Best Buy even though we get sales taxes from them. The real giant non-tax paying leech is Amazon, and companies like them. No local employees, no taxes paid. They kill brick and mortar stores and provide nothing in return.
Coffeyville, KS would probably disagree completely - lots of people work at the Amazon DC there. As well as some Okies. And a couple of local trucking companies have a lot of loads out of there.....used to anyway...family member drove for one and ran to that place every day, then back to Dallas with the loads - and he was only one of about 4 or 5 drivers to do that. Headquartered/stationed in Tulsa.
Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2014, 01:34:48 PM
Logic? It's a fact. The thread was about casinos and taxes, and there are taxes from these entities that make it into Tulsa. Tax dollars that perhaps would not exist but for the casinos. Now, an impact analysis is an entirely different matter. I am no fan of casinos or gambling. Ruins families and other nastiness. The only casino I can recall entering, other than passing through to get to somewhere else, would be on a cruise ship.
Actually, this was the original question: "what taxes the city of Tulsa gets from local casino operations?"
On the most basic level, the answer is zero. The money you are talking about is simply the ripple effect of monies the casinos spend on payroll, etc. getting recycled through the economy as employees/vendors buy things that are taxable. It is basic economics that these ripples get smaller as they spread out from the original source. The concern many have is that because the first transaction - spending money at the casino - is tax free, the City/County of Tulsa are losing out on the largest chunck of tax revenue per dollar spent compared to if those dollars were spent locally at a non-Indian facility.
Under your analysis, Tulsa also benefits from Amazon purchases because those purchasers save money (especially if they don't pay the use tax) and they may then use those savings to buy other things in Tulsa on which they do pay sales tax. While likely true, this small beneift does not make up for the larger loss from the orignal sale.
Quote from: DTowner on June 12, 2014, 02:50:57 PM
Actually, this was the original question: "what taxes the city of Tulsa gets from local casino operations?"
On the most basic level, the answer is zero. The money you are talking about is simply the ripple effect of monies the casinos spend on payroll, etc. getting recycled through the economy as employees/vendors buy things that are taxable. It is basic economics that these ripples get smaller as they spread out from the original source. The concern many have is that because the first transaction - spending money at the casino - is tax free, the City/County of Tulsa are losing out on the largest chunck of tax revenue per dollar spent compared to if those dollars were spent locally at a non-Indian facility.
Under your analysis, Tulsa also benefits from Amazon purchases because those purchasers save money (especially if they don't pay the use tax) and they may then use those savings to buy other things in Tulsa on which they do pay sales tax. While likely true, this small beneift does not make up for the larger loss from the orignal sale.
Our economy does not exist in a vacuum. The question is casinos and whether Tulsa receives tax money--even from its operations. Tulsa does receive tax money, albeit from a "ripple effect", which for some reason is an unsatisfactory method. To say Tulsa does not receive tax money is simply false and the source of that position is fallacious. The remainder of your thought about money spent on Indian gaming versus spending money on other forms of entertainment is apples and oranges. There are no private casinos, or to my knowledge a private sector equivalent. Am I wrong? Is there a ground swell of private/local businesses that claim to compete with casinos? If so, then you would have a great argument.
As for Amazon, we can discuss whether it has an unfair tax advantage over local business, or if the costs for shipping that a purchaser pays offsets the tax benefit. Or, generally if the purpose of tax policy is to create "fairness" or raise income. For now, people around Tulsa for whatever reason want to spend their money on casinos. Casinos create jobs inside, gosh only knows how many jobs in construction and infrastructure development to meet their needs, and all the local business that provide services to the casino (food, clothing, materials). I could be wrong and all the latter could be provided by Indian companies--I do not know.
Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2014, 04:22:42 PM
Our economy does not exist in a vacuum. The question is casinos and whether Tulsa receives tax money--even from its operations. Tulsa does receive tax money, albeit from a "ripple effect", which for some reason is an unsatisfactory method. To say Tulsa does not receive tax money is simply false and the source of that position is fallacious. The remainder of your thought about money spent on Indian gaming versus spending money on other forms of entertainment is apples and oranges. There are no private casinos, or to my knowledge a private sector equivalent. Am I wrong? Is there a ground swell of private/local businesses that claim to compete with casinos? If so, then you would have a great argument.
As for Amazon, we can discuss whether it has an unfair tax advantage over local business, or if the costs for shipping that a purchaser pays offsets the tax benefit. Or, generally if the purpose of tax policy is to create "fairness" or raise income. For now, people around Tulsa for whatever reason want to spend their money on casinos. Casinos create jobs inside, gosh only knows how many jobs in construction and infrastructure development to meet their needs, and all the local business that provide services to the casino (food, clothing, materials). I could be wrong and all the latter could be provided by Indian companies--I do not know.
I believe the intent of the original question was whether or not Tulsa collects taxes from casinos.
If that is the case, no it does not.
No one disputes there's money collected at the casino which spreads through the economy, however, a good deal of the profits are spent elsewhere within the tribal nations. The Creek Nation has it's hub in Okmulgee. Likewise with the Cherokees whose hub is Tahlequah, and the Osage whose hub, I believe is Pawhuska.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 12, 2014, 04:30:44 PM
I believe the intent of the original question was whether or not Tulsa collects taxes from casinos.
If that is the case, no it does not.
No one disputes there's money collected at the casino which spreads through the economy, however, a good deal of the profits are spent elsewhere within the tribal nations. The Creek Nation has it's hub in Okmulgee. Likewise with the Cherokees whose hub is Tahlequah, and the Osage whose hub, I believe is Pawhuska.
There is a Cherokee presence in Tulsa county, as well as areas to the east. They are now building houses again after a 10 year break - some may end up in Tulsa county.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 12, 2014, 04:30:44 PM
I believe the intent of the original question was whether or not Tulsa collects taxes from casinos.
If that is the case, no it does not.
No one disputes there's money collected at the casino which spreads through the economy, however, a good deal of the profits are spent elsewhere within the tribal nations. The Creek Nation has it's hub in Okmulgee. Likewise with the Cherokees whose hub is Tahlequah, and the Osage whose hub, I believe is Pawhuska.
I get the intent now. I guess where I am lost is what the end game of this inquiry is? Are we looking just to tax something for the sake of taxing something? Are we just now getting ticked about the compacts? I am no fan of casinos, but it's something folks in the majority don't care about.
Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2014, 07:33:48 PM
Are we looking just to tax something for the sake of taxing something?
Taxes are good as long as someone else is paying them.
;D
Quote from: swake on June 12, 2014, 12:02:43 PM
The real giant non-tax paying leech is Amazon, and companies like them. No local employees, no taxes paid. They kill brick and mortar stores and provide nothing in return.
I ordered some shoes from Joe's New Balance Outlet. They have some overstock Model 993s which I liked better than the current 990V3 shoes. After they got my address, they added sales tax. I assume it goes to Oklahoma and Bixby. The rate is sufficient to include both OK and Bixby sales tax.
I shop at a couple of brick and mortar stores in town that also have an internet presence. Their prices are certainly competitive even at the brick and mortar shop compared to other places on-line.