With Tulsa's 3rd penny going mainly to fix roads, and increasing need for operating costs, and no money for transit and other capital improvements.
We are currently looking at:
4.5 cents for state
2 cents for operations
1.1 cent for (primarily) roads
.6 cents for Vision2025
.25 for county misc?
.067 for the county jail
Total of 8.517
Here is a proposal:
4.5 cents for state
3 cents for operations, with the additional cent being divided .25 going to public safety, .25 going to unfilled city positions and .5 going to transit operations
1 cent to city capital. (by vote, every 10 years, contingent that no more than 60% go to asphalt)
1 cent to county capital. (by vote, every 10 years, contingent that no more than 20% go to asphalt. larger river projects would go here)
Total of 9.0
Just throwing numbers out there for discussion, but I think this could bring stability to city government, fund what needs funded, and take a lot of the complication out of the city votes. When people are voting on .067c they don't understand it.
Quote from: sgrizzle on June 03, 2014, 03:52:48 PM
When people are voting on .067c they don't understand it.
It seems, with voter turn out, when people are told there's an election they don't understand it.
Why not get the state to cede 1 penny of it's 4.5 to the municipalities and replace that funding via income tax? Aside from being regressive, high sales tax makes Tulsa less attractive for tourism and convention business.
Oh wait, that's because every Rethug in the legislature and exec branch has higher aspirations and they want to brag about cutting taxes so we can't possibly raise income tax.
The most simple solution is to enforce sales tax on internet purchases. The main erosion into city funding is the internet.
That said, I would like to end all sales taxes and make it up with a combination of income taxes and property taxes.
Quote from: swake on June 03, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
The most simple solution is to enforce sales tax on internet purchases. The main erosion into city funding is the internet.
That said, I would like to end all sales taxes and make it up with a combination of income taxes and property taxes.
It's not a simple solution as it's impossible to enforce. That requires out-of-state vendors to keep tax records specifically for Oklahoma residents. Making all small sellers keep those records won't happen. There's also no possible way the state could collect all records of purchases made from the internet. That's why the use tax is an honor system which is predictably failing.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 09:19:57 PM
It's not a simple solution as it's impossible to enforce. That requires out-of-state vendors to keep tax records specifically for Oklahoma residents. Making all small sellers keep those records won't happen. There's also no possible way the state could collect all records of purchases made from the internet. That's why the use tax is an honor system which is predictably failing.
There could be a requirement that any vendor with greater than $100,000 of sales in a particular state to collect sales tax, so it only gets the amazons.
It's not that hard for the big sites (amazon, ebay, etc) to compute local sales tax. When I order a pizza from dominos that site can figure my sales tax. While not every state is like oklahoma, all amazon would have to do is remit tax payments to one office even though they shipped to dozens of cities.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 09:19:57 PM
It's not a simple solution as it's impossible to enforce. That requires out-of-state vendors to keep tax records specifically for Oklahoma residents. Making all small sellers keep those records won't happen. There's also no possible way the state could collect all records of purchases made from the internet. That's why the use tax is an honor system which is predictably failing.
You can easily calculate taxes by address/zip in a not all complicated database.
Quote from: swake on June 03, 2014, 09:26:16 PM
You can easily calculate taxes by address/zip in a not all complicated database.
Have you tried it? My former company did. It was a nightmare to rollout and maintain. Remember, municipalities and counties change rates often.
Quote from: swake on June 03, 2014, 09:26:16 PM
You can easily calculate taxes by address/zip in a not all complicated database.
That's not the point.
Try making thousands and thousands of vendors comply with the collecting, reporting, and remitting.
As far as Grizzle's comment on eBay, they have a function to automatically add in sales tax where required. It's still optional for vendors to set that up and doesn't even ensure they remit it.
Quote from: swake on June 03, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
The most simple solution is to enforce sales tax on internet purchases. The main erosion into city funding is the internet.
That said, I would like to end all sales taxes and make it up with a combination of income taxes and property taxes.
We could get rid of much of the "regressive" nature of sales tax by not charging sales tax on food, clothes, and prescription drugs. Many other states do it that way. It should be easy with all the computer point of sale registers. Pennsylvania did not charge sales tax on those items way back when. I remember putting all the sales taxable items on the checkout first so the subtotal would be easier for the cashier.
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 03, 2014, 09:52:08 PM
We could get rid of much of the "regressive" nature of sales tax by not charging sales tax on food, clothes, and prescription drugs. Many other states do it that way. It should be easy with all the computer point of sale registers. Pennsylvania did not charge sales tax on those items way back when. I remember putting all the sales taxable items on the checkout first so the subtotal would be easier for the cashier.
Texas did the same thing. However, the difference will have to be made up somewhere, and that somewhere will likely be on property taxes, just like it was scaled in Texas.
Not saying I'm not for it, I'm just being realistic. Doing that with the revenue issue that Oklahoma seems to have at the moment would go over like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl.
Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 09:55:16 PM
Texas did the same thing. However, the difference will have to be made up somewhere, and that somewhere will likely be on property taxes, just like it was scaled in Texas.
Not saying I'm not for it, I'm just being realistic. Doing that with the revenue issue that Oklahoma seems to have at the moment would go over like the proverbial turd in the punch bowl.
I would have to agree the difference would need to be made up somewhere, none of which would be popular with some group or another. It would help squelch the "regressive" lobby some.
I like the simplicity, but it would only be a matter of time until the budgets needed to be expanded and the rate raised to 9.017 in order to maintain curbside flower gardens and upgrade roadway paint to glow in the dark.
9% is way too high. Only 12 cities in the entire country would have a higher sales tax.
Quote from: davideinstein on June 04, 2014, 03:23:10 PM
9% is way too high. Only 12 cities in the entire country would have a higher sales tax.
Darn! We can't be #1 at anything. In this case we wouldn't even make the top 10.
;D
Quote from: swake on June 03, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
That said, I would like to end all sales taxes and make it up with a combination of income taxes and property taxes.
Even more regressive than sales tax...property taxes. Not to mention double, triple, quadruple, etc. taxation.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 04, 2014, 04:49:02 PM
Even more regressive than sales tax...property taxes. Not to mention double, triple, quadruple, etc. taxation.
Property taxes aren't regressive, the more expensive home you own, the more you. Additionally it taxes businesses as well.
Quote from: swake on June 04, 2014, 07:03:58 PM
Property taxes aren't regressive, the more expensive home you own, the more you. Additionally it taxes businesses as well.
Pay taxes on the sale of the piece of land to put the house on.
Pay taxes on the income earned to buy the house.
Pay taxes on the materials used to build the house.
Pay taxes on the profit of the company (labor) hired to build the house.
Pay taxes on the taxes the workers pay for the wages they make to build the house. (Awkward, but you know what it means....)
Pay taxes on the paint, siding, appliances, etc bought to repair/remodel/rebuild the house.
Pay taxes on the trees/shrubs/lawn used to make your place "your own".
And THEN pay taxes to live in that tax house.
So what we have is really a variation on the theme of feudal Europe in medieval times....we are all feudal serfs to the guy in the castle.
Nothing regressive there.... And our ancestors fought a war to get us out from under a tea tax that amounted to about 1.5%.
I guess it could be worse - we could have to pay a tax just to breath and walk around. Like they had to do not all that long ago! (Not paying that tax is what Sam put Henry in jail for.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 04, 2014, 07:37:38 PM
Pay taxes on the sale of the piece of land to put the house on.
Pay taxes on the income earned to buy the house.
Pay taxes on the materials used to build the house.
Pay taxes on the profit of the company (labor) hired to build the house.
Pay taxes on the taxes the workers pay for the wages they make to build the house. (Awkward, but you know what it means....)
Pay taxes on the paint, siding, appliances, etc bought to repair/remodel/rebuild the house.
Pay taxes on the trees/shrubs/lawn used to make your place "your own".
And THEN pay taxes to live in that tax house.
So what we have is really a variation on the theme of feudal Europe in medieval times....we are all feudal serfs to the guy in the castle.
Nothing regressive there.... And our ancestors fought a war to get us out from under a tea tax that amounted to about 1.5%.
I guess it could be worse - we could have to pay a tax just to breath and walk around. Like they had to do not all that long ago! (Not paying that tax is what Sam put Henry in jail for.)
None of that make the tax regressive.
Quote from: swake on June 04, 2014, 07:48:27 PM
None of that make the tax regressive.
Wow..... just wow!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 04, 2014, 07:51:53 PM
Wow..... just wow!
You need to look up the definition of a regressive tax.
How is it regressive H? You pay less taxes for less house (appraised value). Therefore if you buy more house, you pay more tax.
Regressive would be if the tax were a flat $1000 for every house no matter what the value. That would force the lower appraised home to pay a larger % of its value and the higher appraised home to pay % less.
What you have described is closer to a value added analysis of the building process which btw is not regressive. That will drive you crazy because when taken in the aggregate means we all pay more in taxes than we realize. Does that make sense?
Quote from: AquaMan on June 04, 2014, 08:12:17 PM
How is it regressive H? You pay less taxes for less house (appraised value). Therefore if you buy more house, you pay more tax.
Regressive would be if the tax were a flat $1000 for every house no matter what the value. That would force the lower appraised home to pay a larger % of its value and the higher appraised home to pay % less.
What you have described is closer to a value added analysis of the building process which btw is not regressive. That will drive you crazy because when taken in the aggregate means we all pay more in taxes than we realize. Does that make sense?
I guess I was just too subtle...or obscure....note the comment "Nothing regressive there.... And our ancestors fought a war to get us out from under a tea tax that amounted to about 1.5%."
Spelling it out even more - while it may not be regressive, it puts the lie to the idea that "what's yours is yours". What's "yours" is actually a long term lease from the government. An oath of fealty to the "Lord of the Manor" after paying all the previous homage to the various entities that put their hand in your pocket on the way to achieving your American Dream of home ownership. Layer after layer after layer of taxes. Double, triple, quadruple and more taxation.
When it's all said and done, we are probably in the 20 to 30% range for taxes just to get to that point of home ownership. Plus, the ongoing 1% or so for property homage. Frog in a pot of cold water....until it heats up and it's too late.
Is that better?
How would you prefer that we pay for the streets that connect to your property, the street lights that light it, the police and firemen who protect it, the schools to boost its value, the water pipes that keep you from having to dig a well and the laws that protect your property from having a pig farm move across the street?
Would you like us to just bill you? :D
Quote from: AquaMan on June 04, 2014, 08:40:47 PM
How would you prefer that we pay for the streets that connect to your property, the street lights that light it, the police and firemen who protect it, the schools to boost its value, the water pipes that keep you from having to dig a well and the laws that protect your property from having a pig farm move across the street?
With someone else's money, of course.
;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 04, 2014, 09:33:30 PM
With someone else's money, of course.
;D
Yeah, right.... do you hear me whining about the taxes I pay for the services I get? Well, yeah, I b$tch about everything - keeps you alert - and I also recognize the reality of living in this society, and choose to continue....unlike some of those millionaires who pay much lower overall percentages, but still renounce citizenship and "leave" the country - except they tend to stick around to enjoy the living without paying their "dues"....that's ok - they are entitled after all, and I, as one of the millions of minions shouldn't really complain that I get to help them build their dream. After all, they ARE the most important!! And it's only one penny.....
Nice try, though.
Quote from: AquaMan on June 04, 2014, 08:40:47 PM
How would you prefer that we pay for the streets that connect to your property, the street lights that light it, the police and firemen who protect it, the schools to boost its value, the water pipes that keep you from having to dig a well and the laws that protect your property from having a pig farm move across the street?
Would you like us to just bill you? :D
I do get billed. Repeatedly, in many ways. As do you.
I guess the poll tax reference was just way too obscure....or everyone just went on past without notice....
A combination of taxes is the best. And of course, getting rid of inept people in office that can't manage money well.
Quote from: swake on June 04, 2014, 07:03:58 PM
Property taxes aren't regressive, the more expensive home you own, the more you. Additionally it taxes businesses as well.
Other than the ones who get a handsome break on property taxes for locating here.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 05, 2014, 08:41:49 AM
Other than the ones who get a handsome break on property taxes for locating here.
Well, that should be very simply illegal, nationally, and banned as part of trade treaties as well.
Quote from: swake on June 05, 2014, 10:47:25 AM
Well, that should be very simply illegal, nationally, and banned as part of trade treaties as well.
I'm sure they will get right on that just as soon as they ban lobbying.
Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 09:29:32 PM
Have you tried it? My former company did. It was a nightmare to rollout and maintain. Remember, municipalities and counties change rates often.
I have; it worked fine. There are (free, yet still certified!) web services that will calculate the tax for you, and even remit the necessary tax and forms to streamlined states. There is no need to maintain your own database.
Edited to add: Free of cost on the service provider end, who gets paid on commission by the SSTUA states. Obviously, any integration with other software that is required costs the business some money for that service.