The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Quote from: davideinstein on May 06, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Ban the food trucks and collect some property taxes.

Why, pray tell, ban food trucks??




For everyone else, who just reacted like Leonard (rolling eyes and face palm) when Penny asks Sheldon a question - just watch a while and let's see what he walks into!  See if he is serious, or just making noise....

I will defend davideinstien.

I love food trucks, but there has to be some rules to not allow them to park directly in front of a restaurant and serve the same food. Jimmy John's has invested in a nice build-out, pays taxes, including the ball park tax, and it wouldn't be right to them to allow a food truck to have an unfair edge because they don't have the same taxes to pay.

Luckily, I don't know of any food truck that serves the kind of sandwiches Jimmy John's sells.

I appreciate Jimmy John's. They have a excellent value menu and deliver in nothing flat. I also love the KimChi fries from Lone Wolf truck. We need a world where both can succeed.

Regarding food trucks a happy medium for existing restaurant owners and food trucks would be a food truck court.  They are even building one in OKC.  http://m.newsok.com/bleu-garten-aspires-to-be-midtown-downtown-community-gathering-spot/article/3944982 (http://m.newsok.com/bleu-garten-aspires-to-be-midtown-downtown-community-gathering-spot/article/3944982)
Similar to Food Truck Wednesdays at Guthrie Green but every day of the week.  In downtown I think the block between 2nd/3rd and Cincinnati/Detroit would be perfect for a temporary installation, and eventually something permanent.  Access to Blue Dome and downtown offices, and one hell of a view.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 08, 2014, 09:49:07 PM
I will defend davideinstien.

I love food trucks, but there has to be some rules to not allow them to park directly in front of a restaurant and serve the same food. Jimmy John's has invested in a nice build-out, pays taxes, including the ball park tax, and it wouldn't be right to them to allow a food truck to have an unfair edge because they don't have the same taxes to pay.

Luckily, I don't know of any food truck that serves the kind of sandwiches Jimmy John's sells.

I appreciate Jimmy John's. They have a excellent value menu and deliver in nothing flat. I also love the KimChi fries from Lone Wolf truck. We need a world where both can succeed.

I am a little curious how that would happen...?  Does the city not have some kind of parking law regarding use of city street for commercial ventures?  And if they are parking in a private parking lot, wouldn't they be subject to tow if there is no rental relationship?  The food trucks I have talked to - and there have been quite a few, 'cause I want to do something similar - have to pay rent - I would imagine they are subject to the same laws of trespass and property usage as anyone else.  Pay to put in an electric pole from PSO at the edge of the parking lot.  Deal with water/wastewater situations in some manner.  Are subject to inspections/fees/permits from the state health department and the city they operate in.   

Which rent, by definition would include a proportionate element of taxes, profit, interest, principle if there was a loan involved on the property, etc., as all rent does.  Unless the owner was subsidizing the rent for some reason.....as when one buys a property, the contract will often say, "for $10.00, and other good and valuable consideration...."  I could see someone giving "free" rent in exchange for "free" food...that could work out well.

There must be reasons one company chooses to set up in a building, do that build-out, and operate out of the fixed location.  There is a perceived benefit they want to achieve.  Same for the food truck, which by it's nature will be a smaller operation suited to a different type of organization, with different costs, such as a truck, it's build-out, and permits for that type of business.

I haven't seen a sub truck yet....  I like Jimmy John's too - the one I usually can get to is in Moore, but the one in BA is pretty much the same.  Would try a food truck sub place, too, though, if there was a good one around.  I eat out so often - like every meal, every day - that it has gotten very difficult to find any restaurant that can be enjoyable.  Actually, last Monday, I got some 'fixin's' and made a nice hamburger and salad at home....first time in weeks that have eaten at home...  Kinda sucks....

Haven't been there in a while - since the original, older guy owned it, but that bar-b-que trailer at 31st and Sheridan used to be really good.  I heard it changed hands and I haven't had the chance to go by there yet....  At one time, it was at least as good as Albert G's.  Yum!

Would like to see a good pizza truck....all the stand alones aren't that great.


Here is some health department information about the mobile food business and the expenses for permits;
http://www.tulsa-health.org/food-safety/food-service-industry/mobile-food-vending

Quote from: SXSW on May 08, 2014, 10:25:28 PM
Regarding food trucks a happy medium for existing restaurant owners and food trucks would be a food truck court.  They are even building one in OKC.  http://m.newsok.com/bleu-garten-aspires-to-be-midtown-downtown-community-gathering-spot/article/3944982 (http://m.newsok.com/bleu-garten-aspires-to-be-midtown-downtown-community-gathering-spot/article/3944982)
Similar to Food Truck Wednesdays at Guthrie Green but every day of the week.  In downtown I think the block between 2nd/3rd and Cincinnati/Detroit would be perfect for a temporary installation, and eventually something permanent.  Access to Blue Dome and downtown offices, and one hell of a view.

That will be cool.  Gotta get by there....

That sounds like a great opportunity.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2014, 12:02:32 AM


Haven't been there in a while - since the original, older guy owned it, but that bar-b-que trailer at 31st and Sheridan used to be really good.  I heard it changed hands and I haven't had the chance to go by there yet....  At one time, it was at least as good as Albert G's.  Yum!

Would like to see a good pizza truck....all the stand alones aren't that great.

Food trucks are a viable way for talented chefs to get their food out there without the overhead and risk of a fixed-base operation.  IIRC, Tuck Curren, owner and chef of Local Table and Biga has gone strictly to catering and his food truck.  It makes great economic sense for some people but it's no less work than a fixed base.

Get a torta from the taco truck on the other side of the Shell convenience store at 31st & Sheridan.  They rock!

Andolini's has a pizza truck every bit as good off the truck as it is in their restaurant. 

I agree with RM on Lone Wolf, great Banh Mi, but the kimchi fries are just outstanding!

Quote from: Conan71 on May 09, 2014, 09:06:37 AM
Food trucks are a viable way for talented chefs to get their food out there without the overhead and risk of a fixed-base operation.  IIRC, Tuck Curren, owner and chef of Local Table and Biga has gone strictly to catering and his food truck.  It makes great economic sense for some people but it's no less work than a fixed base.

Get a torta from the taco truck on the other side of the Shell convenience store at 31st & Sheridan.  They rock!

Andolini's has a pizza truck every bit as good off the truck as it is in their restaurant. 

I agree with RM on Lone Wolf, great Banh Mi, but the kimchi fries are just outstanding!

Hmm...I may have to venture down there for lunch one day.

Quote from: Hoss on May 09, 2014, 09:11:05 AM
Hmm...I may have to venture down there for lunch one day.

You won't regret it.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 09, 2014, 09:06:37 AM
Food trucks are a viable way for talented chefs to get their food out there without the overhead and risk of a fixed-base operation.  IIRC, Tuck Curren, owner and chef of Local Table and Biga has gone strictly to catering and his food truck.  It makes great economic sense for some people but it's no less work than a fixed base.

Get a torta from the taco truck on the other side of the Shell convenience store at 31st & Sheridan.  They rock!

Andolini's has a pizza truck every bit as good off the truck as it is in their restaurant. 

I agree with RM on Lone Wolf, great Banh Mi, but the kimchi fries are just outstanding!

Yes!   All of the above.  Just a different business plan, no less valid than a building, just a different style.


I don't drink coffee, but SWMBO tells me that Habby's Coffee Shack in Branson West, MO, beats Starbucks any day of the week.   Tiny little trailer place only open in the morning.


Will try the taco truck this weekend.  

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2014, 09:14:16 AM

Yes!   All of the above.  Just a different business plan, no less valid than a building, just a different style.


I don't drink coffee, but SWMBO tells me that Habby's Coffee Shack in Branson West, MO, beats Starbucks any day of the week.   Tiny little trailer place only open in the morning.


Will try the taco truck this weekend.  

All this talk made me have a torta for lunch.  The BBQ trailer was gone.  Not sure if that's permanent or temporary.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 09, 2014, 01:58:20 PM
All this talk made me have a torta for lunch.  The BBQ trailer was gone.  Not sure if that's permanent or temporary.

It was there since about 2002, so it may be done for.  Or maybe needed some work on the building.  Was the picnic area gone, too?

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2014, 02:32:41 PM
It was there since about 2002, so it may be done for.  Or maybe needed some work on the building.  Was the picnic area gone, too?

Empty slab, but the posts and sign that advertised BBQ are still there.

Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks. We're delivery heavy and no one can touch our business model on that. It's my personal opinion that they should pay more taxes. They hurt locally owned brick and mortar shops that most. There are a lot of locally owned business owners that agree with me on this.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 09, 2014, 04:08:01 PM
Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks. We're delivery heavy and no one can touch our business model on that. It's my personal opinion that they should pay more taxes. They hurt locally owned brick and mortar shops that most. There are a lot of locally owned business owners that agree with me on this.

But yet you say ban them....

I for one say we need a heavy tax on restaurants that rely heavily on publicly financed roads to deliver their products.  Particularly if they use bicycles that regularly disregard traffic signals and ride down alleys failing to yield to pedestrians. Those guys aren't paying any taxes to use the streets!  The delivery service allows people who live far away to just stay in, if they couldn't deliver then the people would go out more and frequent establishments closer to hom.

Actually - I love cycling and don't want a tax on that.  I also don't want to tax delivery guys.  I don't want to shut them down in any way.  But the argument is equally weak.

I also love food trucks.  I think I've eaten at a food truck three times this week. Maybe four (twice at the Dog House, I love the fricken Tulsa Dog). 

But I agree.  A restaurant owner strategically places his business and makes a commitment to that location.  There is an argument that it isn't competitively fair OR good for the city to enable a good truck to just park in front of them constantly. 

In that it doesn't happen, or I haven't seen it happen - I'm assuming there is some kind of rule on that.  I've only seen food trucks "up the curb" in a lot somewhere.  Around Guthrie Green, or in a parking lot.  Those all seem legit. 

If the parking lot owner wants to rent the space across from some restaurant to a food truck - he should be able to (barring contrary zoning such a residential use only).  Certainly someone could build a restaurant there and compete.  Certainly the restaurant owner could buy the lot and control it.  The food truck has a limited menu, sporadic availability, and should suffer in service and ambiance - let alone working with a limited "kitchen."  In exchange, they get mobility and low overhead.

But business is ingrained to try to defeat their competition.  So the disdain makes sense.

Banning is a bit extreme. I was downtown on Monday and saw some vendors set up on 3rd by the PAC. They were selling flowers, plants and food. Must they too be limited to traditional storefront operations? I would guess that setting up a trailer downtown nets the city as much in fees and sales taxes as would a brick and mortar but merely on a pay as you go basis, the difference being in comfort, style and trust. Some folks get by with a Fiat others want a full size Toyota.

However, downtown is different than the outlying areas because of the limited availability of product/service. You set up that same flower and plant trailer in a parking lot across the street from Stringer Nursery, I think you aren't playing fair.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 09, 2014, 04:08:01 PM
Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks. We're delivery heavy and no one can touch our business model on that. It's my personal opinion that they should pay more taxes. They hurt locally owned brick and mortar shops that most. There are a lot of locally owned business owners that agree with me on this.

They generally have lower profit margins, and have less gross income due to only working a few days a month. They pay the same or more taxes to the city than a brick and mortar. Property taxes are a drop in the bucket. Like saying we could fix the city budget by charging a nickle to park a bike..

Quote from: davideinstein on May 09, 2014, 04:08:01 PM
Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks. We're delivery heavy and no one can touch our business model on that. It's my personal opinion that they should pay more taxes. They hurt locally owned brick and mortar shops that most. There are a lot of locally owned business owners that agree with me on this.

So, you want to ban mom & pop food trucks that pay local taxes, pay a fee as a food vendor to the city, probably pay some form of a peddler/vendor license, buy their goods locally, and basically keep the flow of money locally, in favor of a franchisee, that a good portion of the money made there goes out of state, and the effect is "Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks."?

So, if the trucks sell something that people buy, compete with it. If people want tortas, or something that the trucks specialize in, make  what they want and compete price wise. But you can't because JJ's has a fixed menu and you can't deviate from it. You are in a box, and can't go outside it. The food trucks are independent, and can specialize, and can change.

I wish you well, but national sandwich chains have a 5 to 10 year life span (Quiznos, Blimpie, the ebb and flow of Subway, and back in the early 80's Sub's and Stuff)

Einstein Bro Bagels are the new J.J's ... they're poppin' up everywhere

A food truck is really no more competition to a restaurant than another restaurant opening next door or across the street.  Granted, it would be an donkey move to park a food truck directly in front of a restaurant.

With every new restaurant that opens downtown, that's one more competitor to the existing restaurants.  How does that play with the other restaurant owners?

Quote from: Conan71 on May 11, 2014, 11:07:09 AM
A food truck is really no more competition to a restaurant than another restaurant opening next door or across the street.  Granted, it would be an donkey move to park a food truck directly in front of a restaurant.

With every new restaurant that opens downtown, that's one more competitor to the existing restaurants.  How does that play with the other restaurant owners?

I don't know..maybe ban new restaurants?  *snark*

Quote from: Hoss on May 09, 2014, 05:23:44 PM
But yet you say ban them....

Yes, because I don't think they should have a market advantage, pay very little taxes and have little to no oversight from the health department while others do.

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 09, 2014, 06:09:59 PM
They generally have lower profit margins, and have less gross income due to only working a few days a month. They pay the same or more taxes to the city than a brick and mortar. Property taxes are a drop in the bucket. Like saying we could fix the city budget by charging a nickle to park a bike..

Property taxes, regular hours (labor cost), rent, etc.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 10, 2014, 07:53:20 PM
So, you want to ban mom & pop food trucks that pay local taxes, pay a fee as a food vendor to the city, probably pay some form of a peddler/vendor license, buy their goods locally, and basically keep the flow of money locally, in favor of a franchisee, that a good portion of the money made there goes out of state, and the effect is "Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks."?

So, if the trucks sell something that people buy, compete with it. If people want tortas, or something that the trucks specialize in, make  what they want and compete price wise. But you can't because JJ's has a fixed menu and you can't deviate from it. You are in a box, and can't go outside it. The food trucks are independent, and can specialize, and can change.

I wish you well, but national sandwich chains have a 5 to 10 year life span (Quiznos, Blimpie, the ebb and flow of Subway, and back in the early 80's Sub's and Stuff)

This isn't a chain vs. local argument. On our block we have multiple local places that serve food. If I owned Dave's Subs and changed the menu every day, it would not matter. My point is that they pay less money into the system and it weakens downtown development. My opinion is a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the company I work for.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 11, 2014, 12:40:46 PM
This isn't a chain vs. local argument. On our block we have multiple local places that serve food. If I owned Dave's Subs and changed the menu every day, it would not matter. My point is that they pay less money into the system and it weakens downtown development. My opinion is a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the company I work for.

Fine, show me the hard facts that food trucks weaken downtown development. If it's so detrimental,  then why are a lot of cities encouraging food trucks, and helping develop areas for them to set up?

Quote from: davideinstein on May 11, 2014, 12:40:46 PM
This isn't a chain vs. local argument. On our block we have multiple local places that serve food. If I owned Dave's Subs and changed the menu every day, it would not matter. My point is that they pay less money into the system and it weakens downtown development. My opinion is a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the company I work for.

So, serve up some facts regarding it weakening downtown development.

I suspect many of those same local places who don't mind the competition.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/how-to-eat-like-our-lives-depend-on-it/portland-s-food-truck-heaven (http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/how-to-eat-like-our-lives-depend-on-it/portland-s-food-truck-heaven)

http://www.restreets.org/case-studies/temporary-mobile-commerce (http://www.restreets.org/case-studies/temporary-mobile-commerce)

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/are_food_trucks_here_to_stay (http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/are_food_trucks_here_to_stay)

http://phxstreetfood.org/ (http://phxstreetfood.org/)

http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2010/10/22/20101022mobile-food-truck-court-launches-downtown-phoenix.html (http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/dining/articles/2010/10/22/20101022mobile-food-truck-court-launches-downtown-phoenix.html)


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/2011/03/food_truck_info_session_dont_q.php (http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/2011/03/food_truck_info_session_dont_q.php)

http://www.foodtrucklaws.com/ (http://www.foodtrucklaws.com/)

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/20130807food-truck-operators-seek-fewer-curbs-parking.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/20130807food-truck-operators-seek-fewer-curbs-parking.html)

http://citiesspeak.org/2013/05/20/food-trucks-more-than-a-passing-fad-for-many-cities/ (http://citiesspeak.org/2013/05/20/food-trucks-more-than-a-passing-fad-for-many-cities/)

It's simple to me. We have an ever growing amount of food trucks in the downtown area and an enormous amount of empty space within the IDL.

It's just my personal opinion that brick and mortar growth is healthier for the city. It's perfectly fine if you all disagree.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 11, 2014, 04:44:23 PM
It's simple to me. We have an ever growing amount of food trucks in the downtown area and an enormous amount of empty space within the IDL.

It's just my personal opinion that brick and mortar growth is healthier for the city. It's perfectly fine if you all disagree.

I'm not a gambler, but I'd be willing to put money down that no-one driving a food truck turned down a B&M location. Food trucks are the restaurant starter package.

Not to mention, it is notoriously hard to actually get first floor space downtown.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 09, 2014, 04:08:01 PM
Jimmy John's loses little to nothing from food trucks. We're delivery heavy and no one can touch our business model on that. It's my personal opinion that they should pay more taxes. They hurt locally owned brick and mortar shops that most. There are a lot of locally owned business owners that agree with me on this.

More taxes than the brick and mortar??   Even though the business volume is pretty much constrained to be much less by the configuration.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 11, 2014, 12:32:27 PM
Yes, because I don't think they should have a market advantage, pay very little taxes and have little to no oversight from the health department while others do.

Why is it you are ignoring the reality??  That seems suspicious on the surface....


They collect and remit exactly the same sales taxes you do.  They pay property taxes in direct proportion to their rent for a space, dependent on how the landlord analyses his property value and expense, and charges rent - if you have a beef with that, it should be with the landlord, not the truck.

Oversight - well, I posted a link to the health department requirements - all you had to do was go read them.  They are subject to the same inspections you are, if they are doing any cooking.  The only thing they get a pass on is if they sell only prepackaged prepared food, and even then they have to conform to the same refrigeration you have if selling perishables.  Sinks and washing - identical.  A certified food manager is required on the premises, just like yours.  Food handler permits - same.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 11, 2014, 12:40:46 PM
This isn't a chain vs. local argument. On our block we have multiple local places that serve food. If I owned Dave's Subs and changed the menu every day, it would not matter. My point is that they pay less money into the system and it weakens downtown development. My opinion is a personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the company I work for.

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with you because as the owner of a B&M franchise I feel that you are biased in your opinion. Having eaten from food trucks in Phoenix, LA, San Francisco, and Portland I have found some good niche places, and some of them do have a B&M location as well. The other thing that I have found is that I find other local B&M places to try.


If I was to go into the food service business with something that I think would sell, I would rather do a food truck based on the initial investment, as a guess I could purchase a good used truck for $60k,

http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/09/27/the-cost-of-starting-a-food-truck/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/investopedia/2012/09/27/the-cost-of-starting-a-food-truck/)

http://www.inc.com/guides/2010/05/opening-a-successful-food-truck.html (http://www.inc.com/guides/2010/05/opening-a-successful-food-truck.html)

and low inventory food costs, and lets say another $2000.00 for licensing, tax permits (fed/state/city/county), corporation/llc fees, I could start a business for $75k. That's a manageable risk, and the potential to grow it, and maybe move into a small B&M based on the results of sales seems more enticing.

Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

And as purely a matter of free-market economics, the owner of Hey Mambo! is just as free to purchase a food truck to go along with his fixed base operation or shut down his operation and go mobile.  His former mother-in-law has done just that, though she parks her Airstream where there's not a lot of food options, or at least she used to.  I haven't visited her for lunch in about a year.

The only real competition advantage I could see in your example is if Andolini's pulled a total #dickmove and parked across the street from Hey Mambo! on Weds. and sold pizza for $2 a slice less.

The consumer ultimately has final say in who represents the best value for their dining dollar or tastes.  

I would agree they have an unfair advantage economically if they were offering vastly lower prices.  To be perfectly honest, I don't see any food trucks engaging in predatory pricing that is any lower than their fixed base competitors.  The only advantage I see they have is they are free to move around to under-served areas or to set up quickly at festivals.  I don't see much of a difference in that regard to restaurants which have catering services.  

Those who innovate, exploit their market, and respond to changes in tastes will always be the most successful.  Aside from financial mis-management, the better majority of restaurants failed because they didn't offer a good product or the consumer does not believe the value is worth the asking price.

It's still a lot of work and if they employ anyone they must do the same payroll taxes and carry worker's comp, etc. Again, just not seeing an unfair advantage.  I believe the food truck culture adds to the hipness and livability factor to Tulsa.

Your opinion doesn't offend me, I just don't think it registers with the reality of the food trucks.

And just as disclosure- I can count the number of times I eat off a food truck in a year on one hand.  I'm not one of their biggest customers by any means.  Heck I eat at JJ's at least twice as much during the course of the year.  Now that I think of it, JJ's is about the only franchise we even support with our dining, everything else I can think of is locally-owned.  You guys make a good sandwich, that's what I order when I'm in the mood for it.  When I'm in the mood for Banh Mi, either my wife makes it or I figure out where Lone Wolf is that day.  That's how most folks roll: they eat what they are in the mood for that is convenient to their location.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 12, 2014, 07:53:39 AM
Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

As explicitly as I can make it - what "more taxes"??  As in - examples!!

Since property taxes are paid by the truck guy - lumped in with rent - he is paying proportionately the same - as has been pointed out before, and was ignored. 

More labor taxes?  As a function of having 2 or 3 people running the truck versus 15 or 20 for the B&M - the rates are identical.  (And if you mention unemployment or social security or ANY other expenses associated with an employee, you give up the right to talk to anyone about "Total Compensation" - ever!!)

Regular hours - specious grasping at straws.  If the food truck is not consistent, he will not have a consistent customer base.  (Come on - you can do better!!  I've seen it before!)


Host of reasons - since taxes are not a valid one, health department issues are not, licensing/permitting are not - what other reasons?

How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 12, 2014, 10:34:47 AM
How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

If the truck is paying a retailer a cut to park outside their business, that would be considered "rent".  There is also a requirement I'm vaguely familiar with and that is they must have a commercial prep kitchen available to them but I have no idea how that comes into play or when it's required.  I know Terri Fermo (Bohemian Love) utilizes one around 33rd & Harvard, and I believe Mr. Nice Guys uses one at 37th & Harvard.  Obviously there's property tax figured into that rent as well.  The tag for the truck would be considered property tax, but obviously that is not going to come close to property tax on brick and mortar.

Still, if the food truck doesn't exploit lower tax costs by selling at vastly lower prices, I don't see any unfair advantage being gained in terms of costs of operation.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 12, 2014, 11:05:12 AM
Still, if the food truck doesn't exploit lower tax costs by selling at vastly lower prices, I don't see any unfair advantage being gained in terms of costs of operation.

I agree with that statement. I never see great prices on food trucks. Many of them are quite proud of their food.

Most of the food trucks I buy from are parked on the street. There is almost always one or two parked downtown during lunch and many of them on Wednesdays at the Guthrie Green. I don't think any of them are paying any kind of rent.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 12, 2014, 11:29:01 AM
I agree with that statement. I never see great prices on food trucks. Many of them are quite proud of their food.

Most of the food trucks I buy from are parked on the street. There is almost always one or two parked downtown during lunch and many of them on Wednesdays at the Guthrie Green. I don't think any of them are paying any kind of rent.

And, if not rent, some food truck owners may have to pay for a spot to store their truck when they are not using it or they may have a payment on the truck and improvements.

I'm sure you are correct on no rent on GG Weds or when they pull to the curb.  I am aware of some food trucks having a rent or split arrangement outside the IDL and one that has an arrangement with a bar downtown to park in their lot on weekends and some weeknights.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 12, 2014, 07:53:39 AM
Yes, more taxes. For example, a brick and mortar has to pay property taxes on top of more labor taxes because they are required to have regular hours as a standard. I enjoy Lone Wolf and a host of other food trucks. I just think the city is better off without them for a host of reasons.

I realize my opinion looks bias, but it's really not. We're delivery heavy and we really are not in direct competition with food trucks. Local places like say, Hey Mambo, on a Wednesday are though. Just a thought. As far as the links posted, just as many on the internet with differing opinions from you all.

So, you want to over tax competition because you feel, your opinion, that they have an unfair advantage, and don't pay their fair share, and that hurts your business. You know, just my opinion, I was not impressed by JJ's, it's a sub sandwich. When I get back to Tulsa, I will go to Bill & Ruth's or Hero's, and if I want a burger I will go to Ron's, Hank's, Goldie's or Lot-A-Burger.

But to think that food trucks need to be taxed more, sorry, JJ's has permanently lost a potential customer.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 12, 2014, 11:37:49 AM
So, you want to over tax competition because you feel, your opinion, that they have an unfair advantage, and don't pay their fair share, and that hurts your business. You know, just my opinion, I was not impressed by JJ's, it's a sub sandwich. When I get back to Tulsa, I will go to Bill & Ruth's or Hero's, and if I want a burger I will go to Ron's, Hank's, Goldie's or Lot-A-Burger.

But to think that food trucks need to be taxed more, sorry, JJ's has permanently lost a potential customer.

Remember though, he said it isn't hurting JJ's business  ::)  He's worried about the other brick and mortar stores around  ::)

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 12, 2014, 10:34:47 AM
How are property taxes paid by the food truck when he parks in the street?

That goes to one of my questions way back at the beginning of this...are there no ordinances in Tulsa that would prevent that type parking?  I don't know - have never investigated just squatting on the street....may have to try it!!

Wouldn't that come under the Business Activity Tax (BAT)?

I thought the business activity tax was based on net value of the company. I would think the net value of a food truck would generally be less than a brick and mortar store.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 12, 2014, 01:39:16 PM
I thought the business activity tax was based on net value of the company. I would think the net value of a food truck would generally be less than a brick and mortar store.

The only asset value to the owner of a restaurant would be any lease-hold improvements they made or equipment they have purchased if they only rent the brick and mortar part of the business.  In many cases, the landlord also owns the lions share of any built-in equipment if there have been prior restaurant tenants who have come and gone.  In that case, the food truck owner may well have more assets than a B & M operation.

I'll just withhold my opinion from here on out on local policy if the response is going to be an attack on my job. That's out of line.

It doesn't directly effect us because the local food joints around me on Boston kicked them out of the area before we even got here. They could post up right in front of our shop and it doesn't change the fact no one in town can beat our delivery times which is our bread and butter. We could seriously make a delivery to a business in the Brady on a Wednesday faster than they could walk to a food truck.

I am opposed to food trucks for a host of reasons, but I still go there and eat because it's good food and within current city policy. I just think they need to invest in longer vision of what downtown needs, which are store fronts and less parking lots. If you don't see my point, then I don't know what to tell you.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 12, 2014, 09:25:20 AM
And as purely a matter of free-market economics, the owner of Hey Mambo! is just as free to purchase a food truck to go along with his fixed base operation or shut down his operation and go mobile.

In theory, if he shuts Hey Mambo! down and has a food truck, how is that helping Brady development/sustainability?

Quote from: saintnicster on May 12, 2014, 12:36:07 PM
He's worried about the other brick and mortar stores around  ::)

Absolutely am.

If we don't have Elote, Mods, LaSalle's and whatever else goes in next then the Deco isn't a destination location for lunch and we lose business because of it because the lunch crowd will start walking in another direction.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 12, 2014, 03:24:52 PM
In theory, if he shuts Hey Mambo! down and has a food truck, how is that helping Brady development/sustainability?

Certainly, you understand I'm not suggesting Scott should do that, but it is a prime location someone else would jump on pretty quick.  If not for a restaurant, possibly retail space.  The Brady is hot right now. 

My main point is this: Every single new restaurant that opens downtown becomes competition and dilutes the available money pool whether it's B & M or it has wheels on it.  A prime example is what happened to Back Alley with the opening of Rib Crib, Albert G's, Oklahoma Joes, as well as BurnCo moving closer to downtown.

Your (JJ's) model will thrive downtown because JJ's offers a convenience in service.  Who is to say that's not unfair to Arby's or any local places which don't offer freaky fast delivery?  Subway downtown (is there still one?) must literally be crapping their pants.  But, that's a company which is free to look at their competitors model and offer delivery as well as training employees on how to make a sandwich as quick as you do.  There's also the issue of quality ingredients they need to address, but I digress.

If Jimmy John's is delivering to The Brady, then by the logic that mobile operations are poaching from brick and mortar in that district, the same logic would apply to those delivering from outside The Brady into the district.  "Not fair" because JJ's, Mazzios, Papa John's, etc. didn't invest in a brick and mortar location there.

Understand, I'm not picking on you.  I'm simply saying no business is more sacrosanct than another.  The only way I'd get up in arms about the food truck revolution is if it were plainly obvious they were taking business by using predatory pricing to gain business, which based on multiple experiences related here, that's simply not happening.

Food trucks are really no more convenient nor quicker than any other short-order place in downtown.  If anything, destination events like Guthrie Green on Wednesdays brings more people downtown and even though they may not end up eating at a B & M place, they might walk past or see something they want to come back and try that evening or at a later time.  If lines and waits looked a bit long for me to wait only to then have to find some place to enjoy my food without spilling it on me, I have gone into a restaurant instead.

The whole idea is bringing more attention, traffic, and money to downtown.  I believe the food trucks are helping to do that.

The large parking lot from 1st to 2nd, between Elgin and Greenwood, would make a great 'food truck park' like what the OKC guy is talking about.  Little bit of park, little bit of picnic area, little bit of this, that and the other... would be a nice place for that.

Others celebrate what we disdain.... somewhere along the line, if many, many others are saying/doing/being one thing and one is doing another, don't ya think maybe that one should reevaluate....


http://www.saucemagazine.com/foodtruckfriday.php#.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 12, 2014, 04:02:03 PM
Subway downtown (is there still one?) must literally be crapping their pants. 

From what I've heard from the GreenArch management, not really. A Subway is supposed to be one of the stores in the big retail space, alongside Leftys.

Why we need three Subway restaurants in the IDL is beyond me.

Quote from: saintnicster on May 13, 2014, 09:04:54 AM
From what I've heard from the GreenArch management, not really. A Subway is supposed to be one of the stores in the big retail space, alongside Leftys.

Why we need three Subway restaurants in the IDL is beyond me.

The two being two blocks apart is the one that confuses me.

City Council discussion of new food truck ordinances...

http://councildocs.tulsacouncil.org/SuperContainer/RawData//GY4ORVNT512201433342/14-212-2-redline.pdf?a=1

Those changes seem completely unnecessary, especially the parts changing 'entrance' to 'property'. Who cares if a food truck is around the block from a competitor? Keeping them from parking right outside a restaurant's front door is reasonable. The proposed new rules seem to take it into protectionism to me.

So does the mean no more food truck Wednesday considering they all technically circle around that "Lucky's on the Green" right in the middle of the block lol

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 15, 2014, 10:58:30 AM
City Council discussion of new food truck ordinances...

http://councildocs.tulsacouncil.org/SuperContainer/RawData//GY4ORVNT512201433342/14-212-2-redline.pdf?a=1

Idiots.

Quote from: LeGenDz on May 15, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
So does the mean no more food truck Wednesday considering they all technically circle around that "Lucky's on the Green" right in the middle of the block lol

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

It also says you have to serve facing the sidewalk, but you can't draw enough of a crowd to clutter the sidewalk.

And yeah, if Lucky's says no, no FTW.

If Elliot said no, Blue Dome Festival might have to close too. They are parking the food trucks in the parking lot.

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 15, 2014, 03:34:06 PM
It also says you have to serve facing the sidewalk, but you can't draw enough of a crowd to clutter the sidewalk.

And yeah, if Lucky's says no, no FTW.

If Elliot said no, Blue Dome Festival might have to close too. They are parking the food trucks in the parking lot.

Or an un-named city councilor who owns a couple of establishments in the Blue Dome.

I really don't see either one of them shutting down the food trucks.  The food truck festivals they've done have brought tons of people to the BD.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 15, 2014, 03:47:46 PM
Or an un-named city councilor who owns a couple of establishments in the Blue Dome.

I really don't see either one of them shutting down the food trucks.  The food truck festivals they've done have brought tons of people to the BD.

Well, I sent a message raising my concerns. I doubt he'll see it, but we'll see.

http://tulsa-ok.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=2011

Found the discussion about this (through no help from Blake, though).  Click "03" on the item list,

I will say on the surface, this sounds like a good proposal. It's similar to what other cities are doing, especially the 300' distance requirement, and the notice of allowing within that distance that a food truck can operate with permission sounds good, and in the case of a special event, unless they are part of the vendor list and have a special event permit, they can't just set up next to the event.

It really sounds like Blake is working with a representative from the truck group that benefits all parties involved. Thought it was funny, that discussing QT's possible objections sounds like they are addressing the 8000lb gorilla in the room.

I must be off my meds saying that it sounds like they are attempting to do something logically.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 18, 2014, 02:02:34 AM
I will say on the surface, this sounds like a good proposal. It's similar to what other cities are doing, especially the 300' distance requirement, and the notice of allowing within that distance that a food truck can operate with permission sounds good, and in the case of a special event, unless they are part of the vendor list and have a special event permit, they can't just set up next to the event.

It really sounds like Blake is working with a representative from the truck group that benefits all parties involved. Thought it was funny, that discussing QT's possible objections sounds like they are addressing the 8000lb gorilla in the room.

I must be off my meds saying that it sounds like they are attempting to do something logically.

After watching it, the biggest issue I have is that B&M owners still have direct control over a truck that they have no financial investment in.  If a store/owner doesn't like or want the truck nearby, then they say no.  It doesn't matter if the other 9 out of 10 of the other stores are OK with it, with one level of decent, the truck has to go.

Heck, here's another scenario.  A truck is parked in a space for several year, is an established part of a neighborhood, a "model citizen", whatever, with all permissions from the stuff around them.  Next thing they know, a new restaurant is opened in that area that is either a direct competitor, or just doesn't like food trucks.  Because of this new person, they can be kicked out of the area.  Why should this be allowed?

I feel like if we're going to have this 300' restriction, then the B&M owner/operator needs to defend _why_ they don't want the truck in that space. The truck owners need a chance to defend themselves, not just be forced to capitulate because "they spent less money" starting up their business.

Can we at least _pretend_ that the wealthier individuals don't have automatic priority over others?

Quote from: saintnicster on May 18, 2014, 08:04:36 PM


Can we at least _pretend_ that the wealthier individuals don't have automatic priority over others?

No.  We can't.  Why change now??

Quote from: saintnicster on May 18, 2014, 08:04:36 PM
After watching it, the biggest issue I have is that B&M owners still have direct control over a truck that they have no financial investment in.  If a store/owner doesn't like or want the truck nearby, then they say no.  It doesn't matter if the other 9 out of 10 of the other stores are OK with it, with one level of decent, the truck has to go.

Heck, here's another scenario.  A truck is parked in a space for several year, is an established part of a neighborhood, a "model citizen", whatever, with all permissions from the stuff around them.  Next thing they know, a new restaurant is opened in that area that is either a direct competitor, or just doesn't like food trucks.  Because of this new person, they can be kicked out of the area.  Why should this be allowed?

I feel like if we're going to have this 300' restriction, then the B&M owner/operator needs to defend _why_ they don't want the truck in that space. The truck owners need a chance to defend themselves, not just be forced to capitulate because "they spent less money" starting up their business.

Can we at least _pretend_ that the wealthier individuals don't have automatic priority over others?

This could get interesting as a case of conflict-of-interest, here's why:

The owners of Arnie's have allowed the Dog House food truck to set up in the Blue Dome building parking lot that they own.  I believe that is within 300 feet of White Flag and possibly Joe Momma's.

If the management (*cough* Blake Ewing *cough*) of either of those two eateries objected to the Dog House setting up there, he could no longer do so.

I've always thought of Blake as having quite a bit of integrity, so I'd be somewhere between surprised and shocked if that actually went down.

Doesnt the "private property" make a difference?

Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2014, 09:31:28 AM
This could get interesting as a case of conflict-of-interest, here's why:

The owners of Arnie's have allowed the Dog House food truck to set up in the Blue Dome building parking lot that they own.  I believe that is within 300 feet of White Flag and possibly Joe Momma's.

If the management (*cough* Blake Ewing *cough*) of either of those two eateries objected to the Dog House setting up there, he could no longer do so.

I've always thought of Blake as having quite a bit of integrity, so I'd be somewhere between surprised and shocked if that actually went down.

Per Ewing the owner of the Doghouse helped with this proposal (assuming that there weren't big changes made afterwards) and I find it hard to believe that Josh doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to the food trucks. He is a big proponent of them, organizing many events such as the K-Dub and Eat Street, to showcase food trucks and working to get food truck courts in Tulsa along Riverside.

Quote from: hello on May 19, 2014, 12:48:30 PM
Per Ewing the owner of the Doghouse helped with this proposal (assuming that there weren't big changes made afterwards) and I find it hard to believe that Josh doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to the food trucks. He is a big proponent of them, organizing many events such as the K-Dub and Eat Street, to showcase food trucks and working to get food truck courts in Tulsa along Riverside.

Josh definitely won't have a problem getting permission to put his truck where he wants around Blue Dome.  He is a great. 

Quote from: hello on May 19, 2014, 12:48:30 PM
Per Ewing the owner of the Doghouse helped with this proposal (assuming that there weren't big changes made afterwards) and I find it hard to believe that Josh doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to the food trucks. He is a big proponent of them, organizing many events such as the K-Dub and Eat Street, to showcase food trucks and working to get food truck courts in Tulsa along Riverside.

I refer to Josh as the "Food Truck Wrangler".  He helped me get food trucks for an event a couple of years ago.  I second Sheen's assessment of him.

Doesn't Blake own a food truck?  Back Alley BBQ?

Quote from: rdj on May 19, 2014, 02:16:43 PM
Doesn't Blake own a food truck?  Back Alley BBQ?

There isn't a food truck.

I have heard stories of a food truck person that has gotten physically violent with female bartenders.  I don't know if this is related or not.  Josh is the food truck king btw.  Not the wrangler.

I was basing that off this:

"Ewing said there are plans to expand the patio and have regular food trucks, including the new Back Alley Blues and BBQ food truck, bringing back the food still smoked in the old location now occupied by White Flag, a gourmet burger restaurant."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/music/the-fur-shop-venue-revived-by-blake-ewing-to-celebrate/article_aa4067bd-6d85-523f-b083-7a32cfe30ee1.html?mode=jqm&_dc=725552119081.84

Quote from: rdj on May 19, 2014, 02:22:24 PM
I was basing that off this:

"Ewing said there are plans to expand the patio and have regular food trucks, including the new Back Alley Blues and BBQ food truck, bringing back the food still smoked in the old location now occupied by White Flag, a gourmet burger restaurant."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/music/the-fur-shop-venue-revived-by-blake-ewing-to-celebrate/article_aa4067bd-6d85-523f-b083-7a32cfe30ee1.html?mode=jqm&_dc=725552119081.84

It doesn't exist now but could.
Waiting on the city for the patio.

Food Truck ordinance pulled by Blake.

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 19, 2014, 03:47:12 PM
Food Truck ordinance pulled by Blake.

Specifically - https://www.facebook.com/a.blake.ewing/posts/559713377482388

QuoteDear Tulsa, I've pulled the food truck ordinance from consideration and am working to schedule a food truck town hall where we can discuss any and all issues involving food trucks and their continued success in Tulsa. Please stay tuned for more information. I'll post it here when we have the details nailed down. Thanks for being so passionate about our great city. A little open minded discussion should go a long way.

He may be "listening" here....

Good for him!!

Food trucks are hip for now but this fad will pass.....

Quote from: Breadburner on May 19, 2014, 04:04:00 PM
Food trucks are hip for now but this fad will pass.....

So sayeth the prophesies.

Quote from: Breadburner on May 19, 2014, 04:04:00 PM
Food trucks are hip for now but this fad will pass.....

That's why they have only been around in one form or other for just a few hundred years....

Way to go, Blake!

He announced it on Facebook and got called a self-serving sleaze ball.

Gotta love the inter webs

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 19, 2014, 04:29:31 PM
He announced it on Facebook and got called a self-serving sleaze ball.

Gotta love the inter webs

F'real?

Quote from: sgrizzle on May 19, 2014, 04:29:31 PM
He announced it on Facebook and got called a self-serving sleaze ball.

Gotta love the inter webs

It's facebook - THE self-serving sleaze ball....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 04:14:11 PM

That's why they have only been around in one form or other for just a few hundred years....

... and before the truck, food carts go back to Greek and Roman ages

Politics as usual. The distance isn't the issue. The lack of revenue coming in to the government per sale compared to the brick and mortar is.

I don't really care about this issue anymore. It's all self-serving from every perspective. I ate at two food trucks this weekend and two brick and mortars. Both were busy.

I disagree with how food trucks operate within the system, but that's not their fault. Deal with it and move on, let the best model win.

Everyone wants to protect their territory from competition. Understandable. Government is always an eager weapon at your disposal.  In many cases it's easier than offering a better product, better price, better atmosphere. Erecting a government obstacle is easier than competing, but promises plenty of unintended negative consequences.

This issue and these arguments are very similar to when the internet became a retail presence a decade ago. B/M and states were aghast at the loss of revenue. They had to adjust or die.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 20, 2014, 06:23:43 AM
This issue and these arguments are very similar to when the internet became a retail presence a decade ago. B/M and states were aghast at the loss of revenue. They had to adjust or die.

(http://www.sdcitybeat.com/sandiego/imgs/media.images/12609/news.widea.jpg)
. . .and the push continues to regulate, limit, throttle, and tax internet traffic, and commerce.

A free market is hard, because business is forced to continually innovate and produce better products and services, and do battle with new competition entering their market space.  The alternative is always to seek ways to force your competition out, and government is always a willing partner.

If you want to force food trucks out, or relegate them out of business, here is a roadmap:
1. You need to fabricate a reason for the government to latch onto, beyond your own competitive concerns.
    a. Loss of tax revenue
    b. Environmental pollution
    c. Public safety
    d. Equality (my favorite). Just show that food trucks are racist because they won't venture into some neighborhoods, or sell on some streets.

2. Once you have government involved, you need to propose impossible regulation.
    a. Tax stamps and daily/weekly/monthly auditing.
    b. Insurmountable standards for running generators, grey water disposal, and grease/smoke/odor output.
    c. Parking restrictions for specialized vehicles (food trucks).  Flashing light, uniformed crossing guard, increased fire suppression, 3-way egress, etc. regulations.
    d. Territory requirements, and time logging at each location.  Specific food truck parking lots (far away from business traffic).

3. Of course, to pass any of this you need public heartbreak (create a hobgoblin).  
    a. Find a news story of someone hit while crossing the street to a food truck.  
    b. Find news about uncleanly conditions on food trucks.
    c. Find information on safety related to propane use/transport/leakage.
    d. Show the increased environmental impact and huge carbon footprint (good one).  Anyone who would eat at a food truck would be environmentally irresponsible.
    e. Present evidence on how food trucks degrade commerce by killing brick & mortar food offerings.
    f. Shoot some pictures of trash as a result of mobile vendors.
    g. Show "underprivileged" streets where the food trucks won't venture. Interview folks who are angry because the taco truck won't come down their street.  They are, after all, entitled to equal tacos.
*EDIT* Someone just sent me a good one:
     h. Food trucks may employ pedifiles and could be operating within distance of schools.



Now get to it!  :D

Quote from: davideinstein on May 19, 2014, 11:23:12 PM
Politics as usual. The distance isn't the issue. The lack of revenue coming in to the government per sale compared to the brick and mortar is.

I don't really care about this issue anymore. It's all self-serving from every perspective. I ate at two food trucks this weekend and two brick and mortars. Both were busy.

I disagree with how food trucks operate within the system, but that's not their fault. Deal with it and move on, let the best model win.

Lack of revenue per sale?

It's always been my assumption that food trucks are required to collect and remit sales tax, no different than any brick and mortar retailer or any other mobile retail service.  Am I wrong on this assumption?  Since I don't recall being up-charged for the tax, I assume they are remitting 8.517% of total sales.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 08:27:38 AM
Lack of revenue per sale?

It's always been my assumption that food trucks are required to collect and remit sales tax, no different than any brick and mortar retailer or any other mobile retail service.  Am I wrong on this assumption?  Since I don't recall being up-charged for the tax, I assume they are remitting 8.517% of total sales.

Shhh!  Keep hope alive.

The taco wagons that hit the construction sites out south have some of the best tacos you will ever have.  Many are open to negotiation on price and few have cash registers. It should be easy for someone to make a case. 

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 08:27:38 AM
Lack of revenue per sale?

It's always been my assumption that food trucks are required to collect and remit sales tax, no different than any brick and mortar retailer or any other mobile retail service.  Am I wrong on this assumption?  Since I don't recall being up-charged for the tax, I assume they are remitting 8.517% of total sales.

That's the theory.  And as with all business' that have a lot of cash changing hands, it does indeed boil down to the honesty of the operator, no matter what kind of cash business it is.  A "rough" audit can easily be done, like they do at the Tulsa Fair - post someone outside for a couple of hours with a counter and do an estimate of business.  If reported income is dramatically different, perform a more detailed check/audit and it WILL get pretty close to reality.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
Shhh!  Keep hope alive.

The taco wagons that hit the construction sites out south have some of the best tacos you will ever have.  Many are open to negotiation on price and few have cash registers. It should be easy for someone to make a case. 

No different than any brick and mortar either.  I frequently pay with cash if the tab is less than or right around $20.  Sales tax remittance is and always will be an honor system.

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 08:32:30 AM
Shhh!  Keep hope alive.

The taco wagons that hit the construction sites out south have some of the best tacos you will ever have.  Many are open to negotiation on price and few have cash registers. It should be easy for someone to make a case. 

I would think it might be like a Barber Shop that only takes cash. Whose to know how many heads you cut?

Quote from: DolfanBob on May 20, 2014, 08:51:15 AM
I would think it might be like a Barber Shop that only takes cash. Whose to know how many heads you cut?

But is a barber shop considered a service rather than a good?  Services are not taxable under Oklahoma tax code.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 08:47:26 AM

That's the theory.  And as with all business' that have a lot of cash changing hands, it does indeed boil down to the honesty of the operator, no matter what kind of cash business it is.  A "rough" audit can easily be done, like they do at the Tulsa Fair - post someone outside for a couple of hours with a counter and do an estimate of business.  If reported income is dramatically different, perform a more detailed check/audit and it WILL get pretty close to reality.

We could create a new audit task force.  Lets call it Street Hospitality Intervention Team.

They could sit outside of food trucks with counters and would be given broad powers to  arrest venders on the spot!
(http://www.jellycounter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/counter.jpg)

I can't wait to see their uniforms!

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 08:54:49 AM
We could create a new audit task force.  Lets call it Street Hospitality Intervention Team.

They could sit outside of food trucks with counters and would be given broad powers to  arrest venders on the spot!
(http://www.jellycounter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/counter.jpg)

I can't wait to see their uniforms!

That is very close to what the State Fair does for their enforcement....

Maybe we could get them guns, badges, and cop cars just like the Oklahoma Insurance Commission. 

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/9b/79b0edc7-8526-5a5b-82e7-5cac0b3d93a3/5249fe767a8fe.preview-300.jpg)

There will be resistance.  We need to make an example of any vender willing to lob a falafel at the enforcement wing of S.H.I.T. (Street Hospitality Intervention Team).
(http://naturalsolutionsradio.com/files/imagecache/blog/images/blogs/police-state-300x230.jpg)

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 08:52:20 AM
But is a barber shop considered a service rather than a good?  Services are not taxable under Oklahoma tax code.

Dang it! I knew I missed my calling.  :'(

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 08:57:10 AM
Maybe we could get them guns, badges, and cop cars just like the Oklahoma Insurance Commission. 

(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/9b/79b0edc7-8526-5a5b-82e7-5cac0b3d93a3/5249fe767a8fe.preview-300.jpg)

pancakes? Hadn't heard that tidbit of info before....

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 09:02:41 AM
There will be resistance.  We need to make an example of any vender willing to lob a falafel at the enforcement wing of S.H.I.T. (Street Hospitality Intervention Team).

Maybe the Pinball Task Force will Smoot them...

Quote from: Ibanez on May 20, 2014, 09:16:51 AM
pancakes? Hadn't heard that tidbit of info before....

http://newsok.com/senator-seeks-to-stop-oklahoma-agencys-police-posture/article/3734301?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Quote from: patric on May 20, 2014, 02:00:33 PM
http://newsok.com/senator-seeks-to-stop-oklahoma-agencys-police-posture/article/3734301?custom_click=rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--zXk8Mh9T--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/hvbsycbgtvraogyhuqak.jpg)

Good stuff in here.

Anyone get there free vegan bbq sandwich from the PETA pig today?

Quote from: davideinstein on May 20, 2014, 02:40:56 PM
Good stuff in here.

Anyone get there free vegan bbq sandwich from the PETA pig today?

:o

Allow me to help you get the image of a vegan bbq sandwich out of your head.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8380/8639877957_f1a2c0c68d.jpg)

You are welcome!

Quote from: Gaspar on May 20, 2014, 03:06:31 PM
:o

Allow me to help you get the image of a vegan bbq sandwich out of your head.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8380/8639877957_f1a2c0c68d.jpg)

You are welcome!

Thank you!!  I was REALLY needing that today....!!

Ray's tonight for dinner, since am stuck in Norman today!!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 03:42:41 PM

Thank you!!  I was REALLY needing that today....!!

Ray's tonight for dinner, since am stuck in Norman today!!

Van's Pig Stand has a new location at 19th and Tower Drive in Moore.  Just opened a few weeks ago.  I had lunch there last week, great ribs!

Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2014, 04:35:48 PM
Van's Pig Stand has a new location at 19th and Tower Drive in Moore.  Just opened a few weeks ago.  I had lunch there last week, great ribs!

Have heard a lot about them and went there once about 6 or 7 years ago...different place, I think.  May have to just do that tomorrow!  I missed ribs tonight due to car maintenance.'

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 20, 2014, 07:30:01 PM

Have heard a lot about them and went there once about 6 or 7 years ago...different place, I think.  May have to just do that tomorrow!  I missed ribs tonight due to car maintenance.'

I had eaten at the one in Shawnee years ago.  Their rub is really good, sauce as well. Seems to be actually smoked and not chemically forced. As you know, sides matter little to me, but their fried okra and slaw were really good.

Food trucks are a big thing now. Every major city has them and there is no reason for Tulsa to try and prevent them. This state is backwards enough, lets not get to the point that we need to prohibit free enterprise. Food trucks are a great option for breakfast and lunch.

Quote from: Radvlad on May 26, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
This state is backwards enough

Hold that thought.   I'm sure we could take this backwards thing a lot further.   It could really set us apart.  Bring in some big tourism dollars for our backwards ways

Quote from: Radvlad on May 26, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
Food trucks are a big thing now. Every major city has them and there is no reason for Tulsa to try and prevent them. This state is backwards enough, lets not get to the point that we need to prohibit free enterprise. Food trucks are a great option for breakfast and lunch.

Food trucks are too small... not big enough to accommodate the ten officers it takes to inspect licenses.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=19819.0

Quote from: patric on May 26, 2014, 03:00:26 PM
Food trucks are too small... not big enough to accommodate the ten officers it takes to inspect licenses.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=19819.0

I'm sure the new regulations will require them to be larger to accommodate the enforcement team and still meet fire safety regulations.

Quote from: Radvlad on May 26, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
Food trucks are a big thing now. Every major city has them and there is no reason for Tulsa to try and prevent them. This state is backwards enough, lets not get to the point that we need to prohibit free enterprise. Food trucks are a great option for breakfast and lunch.

Just got back from Chicago and was told they have a 500 foot rule with a limited amount of permits. So saying every major city has them is false. I saw one the entire time I was there.

The rule that I want to see written is related to outside generators. There is a truck that occasionally parks at 3rd and Main that has a generator that makes it hard to hear yourself think.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 26, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
Just got back from Chicago and was told they have a 500 foot rule with a limited amount of permits. So saying every major city has them is false. I saw one the entire time I was there.

So you saw a food truck in Chicago and say Chicago doesn't have food trucks?  

http://www.chicagofoodtruckfinder.com/  lists 65 and says there are two open at this very minute.

Food trucks are hard:
http://voices.suntimes.com/business-2/grid/food-trucks-chicago/#.U4QNtii0OOw

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 26, 2014, 10:57:02 PM
There is a truck that occasionally parks at 3rd and Main that has a generator that makes it hard to hear yourself think.

I leave the office to avoid thinking.

Quote from: BKDotCom on May 26, 2014, 11:01:55 PM
So you saw a food truck in Chicago and say Chicago doesn't have food trucks?  

http://www.chicagofoodtruckfinder.com/  lists 65 and says there are two open at this very minute.

Food trucks are hard:
http://voices.suntimes.com/business-2/grid/food-trucks-chicago/#.U4QNtii0OOw

I was just pointing out they are heavily regulated in major cities. To say we are going "backwards" by regulating them is just a bias opinion.

Only 2 open with 65 total is not a lot for a city with the size and density of Chicago. Some cities have a lot with limited regulations, and others are heavily regulated.

QuoteI was just pointing out they are heavily regulated in major cities. To say we are going "backwards" by regulating them is just a bias opinion.

Only 2 open with 65 total is not a lot for a city with the size and density of Chicago. Some cities have a lot with limited regulations, and others are heavily regulated.

Heavy regulation often comes from either the city (whatever government or organization) does not want them at all or already has larger established players that want as little new competition as possible. Some level of regulations are one thing but most will be out of business due to funding before regulations.

If a city like Chicago has a 500 foot rule, sounds like the 150 foot rule currently enjoyed is pretty lax.  Curious what the rule is in NYC if anyone cares to research.

edit: according to the article BK posted, it's 200' in Chicago.

http://mobile-cuisine.com/food-truck-laws-by-city/

Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 27, 2014, 09:33:13 AM
http://mobile-cuisine.com/food-truck-laws-by-city/

We are actually quite strict and require more expensive licensing than many cities. Who would have thunk it?

Quote from: Gaspar on May 27, 2014, 09:44:07 AM
We are actually quite strict and require more expensive licensing than many cities. Who would have thunk it?

I know this is city and all.. But the state did just have everybody pay $25 for having a business so they could have small business pay for all those big corporate tax breaks.  Surely it bleeds into City policitcs.  Even then $145 isn't a lot.  Surprised a food truck and a hot dog cart are the same cost.

Quote from: Conan71 on May 27, 2014, 08:45:33 AM
If a city like Chicago has a 500 foot rule, sounds like the 150 foot rule currently enjoyed is pretty lax.  Curious what the rule is in NYC if anyone cares to research.

edit: according to the article BK posted, it's 200' in Chicago.

So I guess DE was told wrong?

Quote from: Hoss on May 27, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
So I guess DE was told wrong?

Yes, I was.

It's 200' apparently. I posted what the pedicab guy told me while we were discussing it last weekend.

Here's from an article I googled from the Sun.

"Chicago, with about 122 food trucks, according to the city's latest data, to cities with less severe weather, like Austin, Texas, where the culinary landscape is dotted with high-end street food from nearly 1,500 mobile vendors, and Portland, Ore., which has 728."

So when we are talking Austin and Portland, those are extremes tilted in favor of liberal food truck regulations. My point is that it's not "backwards" to think regulations are necessary.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 27, 2014, 04:54:13 PM
Yes, I was.

It's 200' apparently. I posted what the pedicab guy told me while we were discussing it last weekend.

Here's from an article I googled from the Sun.

"Chicago, with about 122 food trucks, according to the city's latest data, to cities with less severe weather, like Austin, Texas, where the culinary landscape is dotted with high-end street food from nearly 1,500 mobile vendors, and Portland, Ore., which has 728."

So when we are talking Austin and Portland, those are extremes tilted in favor of liberal food truck regulations. My point is that it's not "backwards" to think regulations are necessary.

It IS, however, backwards to talk of banning food trucks altogether.  JMO

Quote from: Hoss on May 27, 2014, 05:15:51 PM
It IS, however, backwards to talk of banning food trucks altogether.  JMO

Remember, according to some people they need to be banned because they don't pay the taxes, and don't carry the burden that B&M stores do and it's unfair competition to the B&M.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 27, 2014, 08:58:59 PM
Remember, according to some people they need to be banned because they don't pay the taxes, and don't carry the burden that B&M stores do and it's unfair competition to the B&M.

I see what you did there...

I'm okay with setting some form of payment to contribute to the property tax fund (at least for the ones that don't pay rent for a permanent or semi-permanent location), but as far as distance from an existing restaurant, can't we use the rule of reason?  How can it be applied city-wide?  It might make sense to prevent the Dickey's food truck from parking in the street in front of Albert G's on Harvard, but downtown is already dense so distances seem all relative.  Would they throw in some exceptions for festivals where there are enough people downtown to benefit all restaurants and food trucks combined?  Would there really be a problem like what was mentioned as an example of Andolinis parking in front of Hey Mambo all the time to put them out of business?  I just don't see a business owner doing something that shady and with the rule of reason, if they did that, find a way to get them removed.  I'm just not seeing how regulations are going to account for all of the intricacies and varying circumstances.

Quote from: DowntownDan on May 29, 2014, 08:47:03 AM
Would they throw in some exceptions for festivals where there are enough people downtown to benefit all restaurants and food trucks combined?

If I understood Blake in the video that I found, thing like Food Truck Wednesday and festivals are covered by the "special event" approval/license.  It felt kinda vague, though.

https://www.facebook.com/events/239894352866171/

I only just found out about this today.  The townhall meeting is tonight at 6pm at Legends.

Food Truck Town Hall is Tonight

http://kwgs.com/post/food-truck-town-hall-tonight (http://kwgs.com/post/food-truck-town-hall-tonight)

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kwgs/files/styles/card_280/public/201405/1403083_553598491383287_925021955_o.jpg)

QuoteCity Councilor Blake Ewing looks for input on a proposed food truck ordinance.

Ewing will host a public forum at 6 p.m. at Legends Dance Hall and Saloon, 514 E Second St. Just 10 days ago he pulled proposed ordinances that would keep food trucks 300 feet from restaurants and events. He said tonight is a chance to hear everyone's ideas.

"We're going to have free food and PBR and soft drinks. We've got three food trucks — The Dog House, Lick Your Lips Donuts and Mod's are going to be there doing some food truck snacks, and we'll just have a good, laid-back conversation about it," Ewing said."

While Ewing worked with Doghouse owner Josh Lynch on the ordinances, several food truck owners posted concerns on social media before they were pulled.

The main reason for tonight's forum is to gain some clarity.

"This was an opportunity to bring everybody into the same room, from the city staff — even the health department's going to be there — to talk about just their side of it," Ewing said. "I figured, why not get everybody into one place and have a conversation about what's going on with the food truck stuff, and see if we can't leave with some clarity and some agreements."

More information about the event is available online.

Quote from: davideinstein on May 27, 2014, 04:54:13 PM
My point is that it's not "backwards" to think regulations are necessary.

Duh. Go back and read. Not one person said there should not be regulations - it's a place serving food after all. People are saying they should not be banned. That is totally different. And your comment about Chicago not having many food trucks is just dead wrong and the facts show you are wrong.

Went to the food truck town hall.

Almost all of the proposed regulations are in the books already. The only change is adding some language about how to measure distance and possibly an increase in distance.

City staff (not blake) was proposing increasing the distance from 150ft to 300 (one block)

Everyone seemed to agree to the idea of increasing the distance to 300ft for festivals, including the truck owners. They also wanted a better definition of what they have to be 150ft from. Currently they have to be 150ft away from Reasors, quiktrip, etc.

Quote from: DowntownDan on May 29, 2014, 08:47:03 AM

It might make sense to prevent the Dickey's food truck from parking in the street in front of Albert G's on Harvard, but downtown is already dense so distances seem all relative. 

Probably not a good comparison - anyone who would eat Dickey's BBQ would never appreciate real food/taste/flavor as found at Albert G's.  (Dickey's is the Taco Mayo of BBQ....)

Quote from: DowntownDan on May 29, 2014, 08:47:03 AM
It might make sense to prevent the Dickey's food truck from parking in the street in front of Albert G's on Harvard, but downtown is already dense so distances seem all relative.

The same density that makes opening a bar so difficult because of it's inevitable distance to a church.

The Dickey's truck will only serve to improve the quality of the clientele in any restaurant they park outside of.  It's like when liqueor stores put the cheap stuff up front to keep trashy people from venturing too deep into the store.

Dickey's doesn't even qualify as the Taco Mayo of BBQ, IMO.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 09:05:14 AM
Dickey's doesn't even qualify as the Taco Mayo of BBQ, IMO.

Tried it one time when a coworker and I were in Broken Arrow for...something.

Underwhelmed is too mild an adjective to describe it.

Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Tried it one time when a coworker and I were in Broken Arrow for...something.

Underwhelmed is too mild an adjective to describe it.

I'll help you with that - it's gross and disgusting.

I believe they use those new electric smokers.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/NN-K125MBGPG_Grill-Mikrowelle_silber_Panasonic.png)

Quote from: Gaspar on June 03, 2014, 04:39:59 PM
I believe they use those new electric smokers.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/NN-K125MBGPG_Grill-Mikrowelle_silber_Panasonic.png)

And lots of liquid smoke, nitrite, MSG, and probably a little red food coloring. Gotta have that authentic-looking smoke ring.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 05:49:40 PM
And lots of liquid smoke, nitrite, MSG, and probably a little red food coloring. Gotta have that authentic-looking smoke ring.

I think Knotty Pine BA uses that same method.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 05:49:40 PM
And lots of liquid smoke, nitrite, MSG, and probably a little red food coloring. Gotta have that authentic-looking smoke ring.

I read that, and I get a headache.

Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 06:22:36 PM
I think Knotty Pine BA uses that same method.

I've actually been seeing some kind comments on the BA location.  Supposedly the west Tulsa location is the original family, that's the one I would suspect of that chemical cocktail, it was dreadful.

Quote from: Conan71 on June 03, 2014, 09:58:34 PM
I've actually been seeing some kind comments on the BA location.  Supposedly the west Tulsa location is the original family, that's the one I would suspect of that chemical cocktail, it was dreadful.

I was NOT impressed with them when I met a friend out there for lunch who swears by them.  I didn't have the heart to tell him I thought it was awful.

I've been spoiled by BurnCo.

I guess I need to go out there soon.  Wonder if the lines are any shorter at the new location.

Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 10:03:31 PM
I was NOT impressed with them when I met a friend out there for lunch who swears by them.  I didn't have the heart to tell him I thought it was awful.

I've been spoiled by BurnCo.

I guess I need to go out there soon.  Wonder if the lines are any shorter at the new location.

Usual deal, if you want to miss the line, hit it at 10:45-11.  Otherwise, line seems to be 20 min from the door.  Not as bad as Frankin's in Austin.

Quote from: Hoss on June 03, 2014, 06:22:36 PM
I think Knotty Pine BA uses that same method.

HA! BOOM goes the Dynamite!  :D

Quote from: DolfanBob on June 04, 2014, 12:23:50 PM
HA! BOOM goes the Dynamite!  :D

Food trucks are dangerous
(http://i.imgur.com/r5blv6K.gif)

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/01/12-people-injured-after-food-truck-explodes-in-philadelphia/

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 02, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Food trucks are dangerous
(http://i.imgur.com/r5blv6K.gif)

Blevy.  Must have been a hot day.

Uh huh! Looks like one of them there terrorist acts.  ;)

Quote from: BKDotCom on July 02, 2014, 04:31:27 PM
Food trucks are dangerous
(http://i.imgur.com/r5blv6K.gif)

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/01/12-people-injured-after-food-truck-explodes-in-philadelphia/

Saw that on the news early Wednesday. That looks like a catastrophic failure of one of the tanks with the propane cloud before the explosion. There was a story on NBC Nightly news about this and info that you are more likely to get injured from a backyard gas grill.

http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/12-hurt-5-critical-philadelphia-food-truck-explosion-n146681 (http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/12-hurt-5-critical-philadelphia-food-truck-explosion-n146681)

Further proof that charcoal or wood is the better idea for home use.

Or natural gas. Its flavored with mercaptan so at least you can smell if its leaking. Does Propane have any smell?

Quote from: AquaMan on July 03, 2014, 09:31:03 AM
Or natural gas. Its flavored with mercaptan so at least you can smell if its leaking. Does Propane have any smell?

Yes, it has a very distinctive smell.  I grew up on a farm refilling our tractor with propane, and we also ran propane in our pickup back in the late '70's.   I refilled those tanks countless times, and it made me nervous every time.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 03, 2014, 09:31:03 AM
Or natural gas. Its flavored with mercaptan so at least you can smell if its leaking. Does Propane have any smell?

About as offensive as natural gas....uses ethyl mercaptan plus others.  Doesn't seem as 'strong' as natural gas, but just as disgusting.