What is happening in the VA health care system is very disturbing. Phony wait lists, etc. Here is one such story:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/delays-care-threaten-health-safety-veterans-va-whistleblower/story?id=23663739&affil=abc
Here's some background from a few days ago:
Quote
Outrage has been building since claims emerged last week that at least 40 veterans died while waiting for treatment from a Phoenix VA hospital. A whistleblower who had worked at the Phoenix VA alleged that the facility placed veterans on a secret waiting list to hide the fact that they had even sought care. But in the furor over the latest revelations, an even larger and more serious problem may be getting lost. It's likely that there are more secret wait lists concealing patient delays throughout the VA medical system, putting untold numbers of veterans in jeopardy.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/08/the-secret-waitlist-that-s-killing-vets.html
I meet several vets a month that have issues with the VA. There are some lawyers out there that focus in this area.
This has been the status quo for at least 50 years - probably longer, but past my direct memory and experience - through Republicontin and Dummycrat administrations! Nothing has improved - only continued to limp along with the occasional indignant uproar about how badly we treat our vets. Then, some obligatory wringing of hands. Add lots of pompous pronouncements invariably ending with the phrase "never let something like this happen again!". And then subsidence back into the morass of inadequate funding, resources, and personnel. It's the "American Way"!!
"Outrage has been building...." - once again! Ooohhh....it just sends patriotic chills up and down my spine and a sparkle in my eyes to hear those magnificent words!!
I know inflection with text is difficult text at times - did my sarcasm and disdain for the despical treatment of our past warriors come through correctly??
I don't want to start another flame fest, but it seems like the congressmen at both the state and federal level are too busy fighting each other and representing every constituent with a fat wallet to spend any time cleaning up the messes they have made.
Can you imagine if every candidate for state and federal office had to have served time in the military or social services as a requirement for candidacy?
Quote from: AquaMan on May 13, 2014, 10:30:24 AM
I don't want to start another flame fest, but it seems like the congressmen at both the state and federal level are too busy fighting each other and representing every constituent with a fat wallet to spend any time cleaning up the messes they have made.
Can you imagine if every candidate for state and federal office had to have served time in the military or social services as a requirement for candidacy?
A lot of them have in the past....
John McCain - who was pushed aside by Mitt... (Wasn't he a draft dodger like Rush Limbaugh?)
Max Cleland - a real, live, honest-to-God war hero! Victim of Karl Rove/Saxby Chambliss - both well documented draft dodgers - lies and RWRE garbage (they did a "Jim Inhofe" on Max)!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 13, 2014, 12:08:25 PM
A lot of them have in the past....
John McCain - who was pushed aside by Mitt... (Wasn't he a draft dodger like Rush Limbaugh?)
Max Cleland - a real, live, honest-to-God war hero! Victim of Karl Rove/Saxby Chambliss - both well documented draft dodgers - lies and RWRE garbage (they did a "Jim Inhofe" on Max)!
Another story coming out of North Carolina.
http://www.wncn.com/story/25498455/2-durham-va-employees-on-leave-over-inappropriate-scheduling
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 13, 2014, 12:08:25 PM
A lot of them have in the past....
John McCain - who was pushed aside by Mitt... (Wasn't he a draft dodger like Rush Limbaugh?)
Max Cleland - a real, live, honest-to-God war hero! Victim of Karl Rove/Saxby Chambliss - both well documented draft dodgers - lies and RWRE garbage (they did a "Jim Inhofe" on Max)!
Yeah. Mitt Romney was a draft dodger like Rush Limbaugh, and Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney, Joe Biden--etc. Not sure what affect these people had on the current state of the VA.
Quote from: guido911 on May 13, 2014, 03:36:49 PM
Another story coming out of North Carolina.
Aren't the congressional candidates having each other killed in North Carolina?
Quote from: Townsend on May 13, 2014, 04:06:07 PM
Aren't the congressional candidates having each other killed in North Carolina?
That damned American Idol contestant!
Quote from: guido911 on May 13, 2014, 04:05:02 PM
Yeah. Mitt Romney was a draft dodger like Rush Limbaugh, and Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney, Joe Biden--etc. Nor sure what affect these people had on the current state of the VA.
All except Limbaugh HAVE been part of the problem with the VA over the years in that they have ALL been in positions of power to affect the operation of VA at some level - and NONE has really even made an effort (other than lip service) to achieve needed reform. Particularly distressing is John McCain, of whom I would expected at least some moderate "foaming-at-the-mouth" jumping up and down yelling and screaming about this over an extended period of time! Like his entire tenure in the Senate!
This didn't just get this way in the last few months or even years. It has been ongoing for decades!
And Limbaugh could have been using his position to advance a true noble cause at least a little bit, instead of exclusively pushing his Right Wing lies, deception, and dissemination....RWRE Crack.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 13, 2014, 05:36:45 PM
All except Limbaugh HAVE been part of the problem with the VA over the years in that they have ALL been in positions of power to affect the operation of VA at some level - and NONE has really even made an effort (other than lip service) to achieve needed reform. Particularly distressing is John McCain, of whom I would expected at least some moderate "foaming-at-the-mouth" jumping up and down yelling and screaming about this over an extended period of time! Like his entire tenure in the Senate!
This didn't just get this way in the last few months or even years. It has been ongoing for decades!
And Limbaugh could have been using his position to advance a true noble cause at least a little bit, instead of exclusively pushing his Right Wing lies, deception, and dissemination....RWRE Crack.
Here's the legislative problem with VA appropriations: Due to the sausage-making nature of bills in the US HOR and Senate, there frequently are extra ticks and fleas attached to Vet appropriation bills that are unpalatable to GOP members. Like adding abortion funding or some other pet liberal project so that when election season comes around people like you can claim the RWRE ate their brains and made them hate Vets. It's simply not reality when you can't have single issues on straight up and down votes in DC anymore.
Change the system to make every bill stand on it's own, and I guarantee we'd see a bigger turn over in Congress and on a regular basis. No more hiding behind 2000 page bills that should take no more than 6-10 pages for it's primary goal.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 13, 2014, 10:32:20 PM
Here's the legislative problem with VA appropriations: Due to the sausage-making nature of bills in the US HOR and Senate, there frequently are extra ticks and fleas attached to Vet appropriation bills that are unpalatable to GOP members. Like adding abortion funding or some other pet liberal project so that when election season comes around people like you can claim the RWRE ate their brains and made them hate Vets. It's simply not reality when you can't have single issues on straight up and down votes in DC anymore.
Change the system to make every bill stand on it's own, and I guarantee we'd see a bigger turn over in Congress and on a regular basis. No more hiding behind 2000 page bills that should take no more than 6-10 pages for it's primary goal.
Let's not forget however, that the so-called 'tax and spend' liberals are not the only purveyors of pork. Many Republicans (MANY) do this as well.
Quote from: Hoss on May 13, 2014, 10:36:31 PM
Let's not forget however, that the so-called 'tax and spend' liberals are not the only purveyors of pork. Many Republicans (MANY) do this as well.
Every member of Congress seeks pork for their own district, that's no secret.
But when it comes to bills that affect military veterans, it's not Rethugs inserting items into those bills to make other Rethugs vote against it. That was the point of my original spittle-inflected rant. ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on May 13, 2014, 10:32:20 PM
Here's the legislative problem with VA appropriations: Due to the sausage-making nature of bills in the US HOR and Senate, there frequently are extra ticks and fleas attached to Vet appropriation bills that are unpalatable to GOP members. Like adding abortion funding or some other pet liberal project so that when election season comes around people like you can claim the RWRE ate their brains and made them hate Vets. It's simply not reality when you can't have single issues on straight up and down votes in DC anymore.
Change the system to make every bill stand on it's own, and I guarantee we'd see a bigger turn over in Congress and on a regular basis. No more hiding behind 2000 page bills that should take no more than 6-10 pages for it's primary goal.
It isn't one or the other - it is both! And has been since I first became "politically aware" back in the 60's. And heard stories from friends/relatives about the issue back to WWII. Before that, if Veteran's had a gripe and said or did anything about it, the gub-mint would just send General McArthur after them with machine guns and tanks to mow them down....on reflection, I guess maybe they haven't had it so bad since WWII....??
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2014, 09:05:57 AM
That was the point of my original spittle-inflected rant. ;)
Shouldn't that be "spittle-flecked" rant??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 14, 2014, 11:04:13 AM
It isn't one or the other - it is both! And has been since I first became "politically aware" back in the 60's.
It is all coming into focus now. :P
"Peace Love Dope!"
Quote from: guido911 on May 14, 2014, 04:58:39 PM
It is all coming into focus now. :P
"Peace Love Dope!"
Too much is never enough...
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 14, 2014, 11:04:13 AM
It isn't one or the other - it is both!
The Phoenix VA has had rumors about things like this going back to the mid 80's. This is one that can't be pinned on either side of the isle. The joke about the Phoenix VA has been for years, "If you're ready to die, go there, if you want to live go to the county hospital."
From the Arizona Republic in 1999:
QuoteThe rapid growth of Arizona's elder population, many of whom are veterans, along with the rising costs of high-technology medicine and longer life spans, are proving to be a triple threat to the budget at the Phoenix veterans hospital. While hospital administrators weren't advised of specific complaints that resulted in the special inspection, Fears suspects that a disgruntled staff member gathered 13 or 14 cases over a five-year period during which patients or family members alleged substandard care.
https://secure.pqarchiver.com/azcentral/doc/237920320.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=01%2F01%2F1999%26nbsp%3B-%26nbsp%3BPresent+%2C+&author=West%2C+Maureen&pub=Arizona+Republic&desc=BUDGET+TROUBLE+AT+VA+HOSPITAL+GROWTH%2C+LIFE+SPANS%2C+TECHNOLOGY+UP+COSTS&pqatl=top_retrieves (https://secure.pqarchiver.com/azcentral/doc/237920320.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=01%2F01%2F1999%26nbsp%3B-%26nbsp%3BPresent+%2C+&author=West%2C+Maureen&pub=Arizona+Republic&desc=BUDGET+TROUBLE+AT+VA+HOSPITAL+GROWTH%2C+LIFE+SPANS%2C+TECHNOLOGY+UP+COSTS&pqatl=top_retrieves)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 14, 2014, 05:41:05 PM
The Phoenix VA has had rumors about things like this going back to the mid 80's. This is one that can't be pinned on either side of the isle. The joke about the Phoenix VA has been for years, "If you're ready to die, go there, if you want to live go to the county hospital."
From the Arizona Republic in 1999:
Joke is nationwide back to the 60's at least....
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 14, 2014, 05:41:05 PM
The Phoenix VA has had rumors about things like this going back to the mid 80's. This is one that can't be pinned on either side of the isle. The joke about the Phoenix VA has been for years, "If you're ready to die, go there, if you want to live go to the county hospital."
From the Arizona Republic in 1999:
https://secure.pqarchiver.com/azcentral/doc/237920320.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=01%2F01%2F1999%26nbsp%3B-%26nbsp%3BPresent+%2C+&author=West%2C+Maureen&pub=Arizona+Republic&desc=BUDGET+TROUBLE+AT+VA+HOSPITAL+GROWTH%2C+LIFE+SPANS%2C+TECHNOLOGY+UP+COSTS&pqatl=top_retrieves (https://secure.pqarchiver.com/azcentral/doc/237920320.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=01%2F01%2F1999%26nbsp%3B-%26nbsp%3BPresent+%2C+&author=West%2C+Maureen&pub=Arizona+Republic&desc=BUDGET+TROUBLE+AT+VA+HOSPITAL+GROWTH%2C+LIFE+SPANS%2C+TECHNOLOGY+UP+COSTS&pqatl=top_retrieves)
The VA is the epitome of the old saw that anything the private sector can do, the government can completely love it up.
We actually refuse to do work for the VA now because their spec books are so thick with bullshit, a major mechanical room overhaul would require hiring extra people just to deal with all the "gotchas" that come up during the warranty period on the project. They seem far more worried about detail issues in the facility itself rather than detail issues with their patients.
We were relieved as hell a few years ago when we missed winning the contract for a mechanical overhaul in the neighborhood of $2mm a few years back at a facility. That project would have owned me for about two years. No thanks.
I can personally attest that the VA pays a premium on major construction because of the PITA factor in dealing with them and their needless extra regulations that other hospitals don't put into their spec books and contracts.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 14, 2014, 08:03:26 PM
We were relieved as hell a few years ago when we missed winning the contract for a mechanical overhaul in the neighborhood of $2mm a few years back at a facility. That project would have owned me for about two years. No thanks.
I can personally attest that the VA pays a premium on major construction because of the PITA factor in dealing with them and their needless extra regulations that other hospitals don't put into their spec books and contracts.
Sometimes everyone else just out high-bids you and you get stuck with a PITA contract.
:(
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bn5dNqBCYAAHE02.jpg)
Quote from: guido911 on May 18, 2014, 05:32:37 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bn5dNqBCYAAHE02.jpg)
Wow! Successfully conflating a 60 day event with a 60 year event!!
Congratulations!! I knew you had it in you...!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 19, 2014, 09:03:35 AM
Wow! Successfully conflating a 60 day event with a 60 year event!!
Congratulations!! I knew you had it in you...!!
It didn't take 60 years to log on to Obamacare website...
I read that Obama is mad as hell about this VA scandal that is getting more and more scandal-y as the days go. So much so that he fired a guy (that was already set to retire and perhaps replaced).
Quote from: guido911 on May 20, 2014, 05:39:45 AM
It didn't take 60 years to log on to Obamacare website...
Exactly! 60 days to fix the health care website (+ or -), versus 60 years of VA issues. Great way to bridge the ages!
The VA situation has been ongoing since I was a wee bairn.... and as I said earlier, BOTH sides share MORE than enough blame!!
Bernie Sanders;
If you can't afford to take care of your veterans, then don't go to war!
41 Senators vote to block reinstatement of benefits to veterans!
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=2&vote=00046
This is heating up, and getting ugly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8JhcL06WQ
There is more to this video on this site, but I know it gets some folks in here excited (and thereby discounting/rejecting) if there is a link to a right leaning website for information.
http://hotair.com/archives/2014/05/21/video-house-democrat-destroys-shinseki-obama-over-va-fiasco-in-floor-speech/
I expect a racism charge, though. And, of course, this is all Bush's fault.
Guido, the blame on this starts back around WWII and has been the problem of every POTUS, Senate, House, and Congress since the '20's. No US leadership has successfully done crap for Vets. It's really sad that they are treated the way they are, the only thing sadder is the fact that the public has had smoke blown up our asses for 60+ years about taking care of Vets, and the only people benefitting has been the administration overseeing the VA.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 21, 2014, 08:31:42 PM
Guido, the blame on this starts back around WWII and has been the problem of every POTUS, Senate, House, and Congress since the '20's. No US leadership has successfully done crap for Vets. It's really sad that they are treated the way they are, the only thing sadder is the fact that the public has had smoke blown up our asses for 60+ years about taking care of Vets, and the only people benefitting has been the administration overseeing the VA.
I don't give a ____ about blame on this issue. People spend too much time (me included on occasion) looking to blame someone rather than going about fixing the problem. And I know a little about the VA, personally and professionally, so reminding me about how long the problem has existed does nothing for me. That approach reminds of this colloquy from South Park (episode dealing with global warming flooding and people stranded on roofs):
QuoteStan: Mom, Dad? [hesitating] Theh, they're gonna go help those people, right?
Sharon: I don't know. You know, to me, it seems like the mayor of Beaverton should've done something about that dam years ago.
Randy: Don't blame the mayor, Sharon. What about FEMA? Think this whole thing is really their fault.
Stan: Ye-but, uh, s-somebody's gonna help the people off their, their rooftops, right?
Randy: That's not important right now, son. What's important is figuring out whose fault this is. [nothing more is exchanged between Stan and his parents]
Here's the link that was not valid above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8JhcL06WQ
Quote from: guido911 on May 22, 2014, 12:46:46 AM
I don't give a ____ about blame on this issue. People spend too much time (me included on occasion) looking to blame someone rather than going about fixing the problem. And I know a little about the VA, personally and professionally, so reminding me about how long the problem has existed does nothing for me. That approach reminds of this colloquy from South Park (episode dealing with global warming flooding and people stranded on roofs):
Here's the link that was not valid above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8JhcL06WQ
In the future...that 's' in https is what makes it invalid. Take that out of the link and it should work.
Also, where was the outrage 5, 10, 20 years ago? Or more? I have a father who potentially has to deal with the VA here soon. I don't care who is to blame, but to blame the current inhabitant of the White House (as many are doing right now) is counter-productive. But then again, it's so predictable on one side of the aisle.
Just fix it.
Quote from: Hoss on May 22, 2014, 07:20:57 AM
In the future...that 's' in https is what makes it invalid. Take that out of the link and it should work.
Also, where was the outrage 5, 10, 20 years ago? Or more? I have a father who potentially has to deal with the VA here soon. I don't care who is to blame, but to blame the current inhabitant of the White House (as many are doing right now) is counter-productive. But then again, it's so predictable on one side of the aisle.
Just fix it.
It's just like with everything else. This is a reaction. Everything with President Obama is a reaction to something "he first learned about in the news."
The Washington Times has copies of all of documents provided by the Bush transition team warning Obama about the false wait times.
Veterans Affairs officials warned the Obama-Biden transition team in the weeks after the 2008 presidential election that the department shouldn't trust the wait times that its facilities were reporting.
"This is not only a data integrity issue in which [Veterans Health Administration] reports unreliable performance data; it affects quality of care by delaying — and potentially denying — deserving veterans timely care," the officials wrote.
Just like with everything else, he knew, but this was not a priority for him because he was busy with continuing to campaign, give speeches, and play golf. So, when the smile hit the fan, he lied. Carney's response to the question 'When was the president first made aware of these fraudulent wait lists at the VA': "I think were reported first by your news network out of Phoenix, I believe?" "We learned about them through the reports. I will double check if that is not the case. But that is when we learned about them and that is when I understand Secretary Shinseki learned about them, and he immediately took the action that he has taken."
Same answer about Fast and Furious, same answer about the Justice Department seizing journalist phone records, same answer about IRS targeting.
Except in this case, now 100 veteran deaths are attributed to the delays.
This is all Bush's fault, because if he had cleaned up the VA, 6 years ago, President Obama wouldn't have to deal with this distraction, and could continue to fundraise. Sheesh, people! Can't you leave a President alone? Now, just as in past scandals, President Obama is going to have to appoint the person at the heart of the scandal to investigate the scandal.
Quote from: guido911 on May 22, 2014, 12:46:46 AM
I don't give a ____ about blame on this issue. People spend too much time (me included on occasion) looking to blame someone rather than going about fixing the problem. And I know a little about the VA, personally and professionally, so reminding me about how long the problem has existed does nothing for me. That approach reminds of this colloquy from South Park (episode dealing with global warming flooding and people stranded on roofs):
That IS a big part of the problem - too many want to ignore the history, thereby eliminating ANY possibility of learning from it. It's all about the "sound bite" quick fix!! Partially right about South Park - the "stick our heads in the sand approach" is exactly what South Park, Simpson's, Family Guy, American Dad, et al are all about - it's what the American people are all about!!
And after the next election, the neglect of VA will continue - possibly sooner if/when the RWRE sees there really isn't an issue...
Here is some interesting data about how many vets for some different events and annual VA budgets for those vets. We finally passed post-WWII spending in about 2008 or so. But since there were potentially WWII and a big portion of WWI vets still around, the $ per person is pretty weak. About $4 per vet in '47 or '48 - hard to tell years on that graph.
NOW, since the WWI group is gone and probably 90% of the WWII group is gone (maybe more?), we only have maybe 16 million vets left to care for....many Korean, most VietNam, etc, etc. And with $120 million per year in 2012, we are up to a WHOPPING $7.50 per vet!!! Yay, team!! (Did anyone miss the sarcasm - if so, send me a PM so I can explain.)
And the recent big increases are under Obama - for whatever reason...
Got to give Baby Bush credit where credit is due - he presided over increases in the last year or two of his regime to over $5.60 per vet!!! Up from the $4.06 or so for most of his time...if anyone is keeping score on Presidents!!
And as I have said so many times before, it is a shameful way ALL the previous Presidents have just let this issue slide - but in fairness, it's absolutely, directly because the American people don't give a rat's you-know-what....even with all the flag waving and "rah-rah" going on for the last 13 years!
1940 - 2012 VA budgets
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS22897.pdf
Number of military and casualties - WWI through 1st Gulf War;
http://www.pbs.org/greatwar/resources/casdeath_pop.html
Quote from: Gaspar on May 22, 2014, 09:41:49 AM
It's just like with everything else. This is a reaction.
Just like with everything else.....
Just like with everything else.....
It's BS when Obama improves it, but wasn't when Bush didn't....or made it worse - like the "Save Daddy's Face War"....
See the previous note.
No knowledge or sense of history!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 22, 2014, 09:55:04 AM
Just like with everything else.....
It's BS when Obama improves it, but wasn't when Bush didn't....or made it worse - like the "Save Daddy's Face War"....
See the previous note.
No knowledge or sense of history!!
The gyrations are fun at this point. I bet that after 8 years, Obama's legacy will be that nothing was his responsibility, because nothing was his fault.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7082/7187793511_6f74c3c567_o.jpg)
It's like my 8yo. "I did't do it, so it's not my responsibility!"
If Obamacare eventually morphs into single-payer, which seems to be the ultimate design, the VA scandal is a really good look at how single-payer health care is meted out in the United States. What are the chances this really does get fixed to the benefit of the vets under this or subsequent administrations? Maybe now that light has been shown on this on-going problem it will get corrected, but probably not before those responsible for this are given generous bonuses and promoted.
It seems a lot of people are organizationally naive or at least uninformed. My good friend who was an exec at a major oil company once told me that the executive leadership of most government functions is pretty much powerless. Presidents, Directors, Department heads come and go. Its the long term civil service employees that run the country. The system protects us against patronage but doesn't do much for efficiency.
Now that we have this preference for picking leadership of these functions from the private sector, the first thing they have to learn is how well protected incompetence is in the public sector. You can fire an incompetent, (or more likely transfer him out of the line of fire) in the private world but at all levels of the government it is a much longer, more complicated task. In fact, its infinitely easier to travel from public leadership into the private world because of all the great contacts you made in government than vice versa.
You can fire Shinseki but that doesn't solve anything. The next guy must be willing to raise hell with his functionaries and see the job as short term or be comfortable with failure and just bank the benefits.
And of course as Conan points out, it all comes back to Obamacare.
I simply pointed out, correctly, that the VA health system is a single-payer system. Our vets are considered our most sacred citizens. If this is how the most sacred of our society are treated, who is to believe that the rest of us would be treated any better if the ACA eventually morphs into single-payer for everyone. We already know there are doctors who are refusing to participate in Medicare and Medicaid or who have stopped taking new patients on government-paid plans.
I have no idea if it will morph into SP. But, there were no shortage of advocates for it and plenty of people who believe that what we ended up with would be such a muddled mess the only fix would eventually be a conversion to single-payer.
Aqua, there's the whole problem in getting rid of incompetence: it's the protected nature of civil service jobs. If you or I engaged in sweeping deceit along the lines it appears to have happened in the VA system, chances are we'd be fired and quite possibly facing criminal charges or civil suits from families of deceased patients.
At least in my encounters with municipal, state, and federal agencies there's never an incentive for department heads to cut waste, spending, or to jettison bad employees. Instead, when they are asked to investigate where they can cut money from their budget, they circle the wagons and put together reasons why they can't cut their budget. Redundancy and incompetence just keep getting rewarded with more spending and department heads seem more than happy to cover-up incompetence so it doesn't reflect poorly on them. At least that's my experience.
There apparently needs to be a better system for whistle blowers to feel confident in exposing corruption, waste, and deceit without worrying about facing consequences for doing so.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 22, 2014, 11:21:27 AM
I simply pointed out, correctly, that the VA health system is a single-payer system. Our vets are considered our most sacred citizens. If this is how the most sacred of our society are treated, who is to believe that the rest of us would be treated any better if the ACA eventually morphs into single-payer for everyone. We already know there are doctors who are refusing to participate in Medicare and Medicaid or who have stopped taking new patients on government-paid plans.
I have no idea if it will morph into SP. But, there were no shortage of advocates for it and plenty of people who believe that what we ended up with would be such a muddled mess the only fix would eventually be a conversion to single-payer.
Aqua, there's the whole problem in getting rid of incompetence: it's the protected nature of civil service jobs. If you or I engaged in sweeping deceit along the lines it appears to have happened in the VA system, chances are we'd be fired and quite possibly facing criminal charges or civil suits from families of deceased patients.
At least in my encounters with municipal, state, and federal agencies there's never an incentive for department heads to cut waste, spending, or to jettison bad employees. Instead, when they are asked to investigate where they can cut money from their budget, they circle the wagons and put together reasons why they can't cut their budget. Redundancy and incompetence just keep getting rewarded with more spending and department heads seem more than happy to cover-up incompetence so it doesn't reflect poorly on them. At least that's my experience.
There apparently needs to be a better system for whistle blowers to feel confident in exposing corruption, waste, and deceit without worrying about facing consequences for doing so.
Or, and I know this sounds completely crazy, why don't we do away with the VA system all together and simply cover veterans under the private system? The private system is more efficient, offers a broader range of services, and would allow vets to make more of their own medical decisions. Most vets are currently involved in what is called "dual-care" situations anyway because the VA system does not cover many things that they can receive coverage for under medicare.
If you have ever been in a VA hospital, it's painfully obvious that you are in a government run facility. Kinda like a DMV with beds. I'm sure vets would love to receive a higher quality of care in their own choice of facility with their choice of doctor. I am also sure that the American public would rather see their vets taken care of at the same standard they expect for themselves.
Why do vets have to be a secondary class of citizen receiving secondary care?
Looks like someone else failed by the VA. Comes closely on the heels of the vet who committed suicide in Broken Arrow recently. From KOTV:
QuoteFamily: Man Killed By Tulsa Police Was National Guard Veteran
TULSA, Oklahoma -
Authorities have released the name of a man shot and killed by Tulsa Police early on the morning of Wednesday, May 21, 2014.
Police say an officer shot Cody W. Young, 22, after Young fired a rifle out of a window of an apartment building in the 1100 block of South Rockford Avenue.
Young's mother tells News On 6 her son would have turned 23 next month. She said he served with the Oklahoma National Guard out of Sand Springs and Vinita and spent about 18 months in Afghanistan before coming home two years ago.
Young was honorably discharged, according to his mother. She said he had PTSD but could never get the treatment he needed from the Veteran's Administration.
5/21/2014 Related Story: Tulsa Police Kill Man They Say Fired Rifle From Apartment Building
The night he was killed, police say they had 10 calls from different people who reported gunshots at the apartment building just before 1 a.m. Officers heard shots fired inside the building as they set up at the scene.
Homicide Sergeant Dave Walker said Young appeared in a second story window holding a rifle and fired one round. He was shot and killed by 17-year veteran Tulsa Police Officer Gene Hogan.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 22, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
Or, and I know this sounds completely crazy, why don't we do away with the VA system all together and simply cover veterans under the private system? The private system is more efficient, offers a broader range of services, and would allow vets to make more of their own medical decisions. Most vets are currently involved in what is called "dual-care" situations anyway because the VA system does not cover many things that they can receive coverage for under medicare.
If you have ever been in a VA hospital, it's painfully obvious that you are in a government run facility. Kinda like a DMV with beds. I'm sure vets would love to receive a higher quality of care in their own choice of facility with their choice of doctor. I am also sure that the American public would rather see their vets taken care of at the same standard they expect for themselves.
Why do vets have to be a secondary class of citizen receiving secondary care?
And then you will be complaining because it costs 10 times as much. Kind of like when the commodity food system at half billion a year went to food stamps at $15 billion a year....but it was in the private system giving a huge bonus to Safeway and A&P.
Have been to VA hospitals - visiting various friends and family. The people who DO get into the care mainstream most the time are treated fairly well, and if poll most of them, you are gonna get a fairly positive response. The BIG complaint is the wait and delay to get into that stream of consciousness...and yeah, there are many instances of bad care, but probably no worse than in the private system. Especially in the long term facility - close family in Claremore for several years - plain facility, but treatment/housing was good. Transferred to Forest Hills in Tulsa for a couple years...well, it is an Oklahoma nursing home, so what can ya say...or expect...
Sometimes I can't even agree with you guys. Yes civil service protects incompetence but private business largely hides it or gives incompetents a payoff and huge severance then they move on to the next golden lamb.
Large organizations often are like the VA. But not always. There are lots of big smart, lean companies. Same with the public sector. Your politics led you to compare ACA with the VA but not with SocialSecurity which provides much better service than many similar sized public companies.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2014, 02:10:57 PM
Sometimes I can't even agree with you guys. Yes civil service protects incompetence but private business largely hides it or gives incompetents a payoff and huge severance then they move on to the next golden lamb.
Large organizations often are like the VA. But not always. There are lots of big smart, lean companies. Same with the public sector. Your politics led you to compare ACA with the VA but not with SocialSecurity which provides much better service than many similar sized public companies.
Truthiness abounds....
I suspect VA problems are more closely related to the interaction of funding (inadequate - listen for it....hear the you-know-who screaming!) to bureaucratic management rather than care in absolute terms.
Quote from: AquaMan on May 22, 2014, 02:10:57 PM
Sometimes I can't even agree with you guys. Yes civil service protects incompetence but private business largely hides it or gives incompetents a payoff and huge severance then they move on to the next golden lamb.
Large organizations often are like the VA. But not always. There are lots of big smart, lean companies. Same with the public sector. Your politics led you to compare ACA with the VA but not with SocialSecurity which provides much better service than many similar sized public companies.
I compared it for a simple reason: This is what government single-payer looks like and it's not good. My politics has nothing to do with it. It's long-held beliefs based on experience, not dogma, I assure you.
Corporations don't tolerate incompetence in the rank and file worker. It affects the bottom line and creates liability. Upper management might look out for each other, but jobs are not protected like civil service jobs, unless it's a union shop.
Isn't SS a single payer service?
Also, given the time I can relate more than one instance where big companies I worked for not only tolerated but rewarded incompetence, larceny and malfeasance in their middle to upper mgmt ranks. Rank and file? Yeah, fire the bastards unless they are unionized. Bottom line is organizations public and private have much in common with each other when it comes to duplicitous jobs, protecting each other and incompetence.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 22, 2014, 02:38:05 PM
Corporations don't tolerate incompetence in the rank and file worker. It affects the bottom line and creates liability. Upper management might look out for each other, but jobs are not protected like civil service jobs, unless it's a union shop.
If you really believe that, it points to a very limited range of experience and view of the world....both rank and file AND management....
I thought you were much older, I guess....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 22, 2014, 05:02:08 PM
If you really believe that, it points to a very limited range of experience and view of the world....both rank and file AND management....
I thought you were much older, I guess....
Nope, I've been a mid-level manager in a Fortune 500. You don't protect turds in the field, they cost you money. You cultivate the best and the brightest and jettison the f-ups quickly as possible to find someone who can do the job.
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoKjnwqIAAAqpxM.jpg)
The inevitable "blame" poll:
QuoteAmericans are split in their thoughts over who is most to blame for the problems at Veterans Affairs Department medical facilities, which involve allegations that VA hospitals kept delays in treatment off the books and that patients may have died waiting for care.
Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki and the VA (33 percent) receive more blame than either local VA hospitals (28 percent) or President Obama (17 percent). About a quarter of Americans have no opinion.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-do-americans-blame-for-the-va-scandal/
Shut up and fix it.
Hey, look what I found. Not only was he informed of the issues, but he also vowed to improve the VA system back in 2008.
http://change.gov/agenda/veterans_agenda/
I wonder how fast this old website will disappear now?
Cynic. The VA does well once the vets get into the system. And will do even better when the system is properly funded. Too bad congress has spent so much time on obamacare and gotcha stuff. There was a time when VA hospitals were abysmal.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 23, 2014, 09:21:40 AM
Hey, look what I found. Not only was he informed of the issues, but he also vowed to improve the VA system back in 2008.
http://change.gov/agenda/veterans_agenda/
I wonder how fast this old website will disappear now?
Explain why the previous 10 presidents did nothing also then. Can't blame the current one without spreading it to the others.
Quote from: Hoss on May 23, 2014, 09:40:05 AM
Explain why the previous 10 presidents did nothing also then. Can't blame the current one without spreading it to the others.
His point was he was able to find a link and post it. Feel good for him
Quote from: Hoss on May 23, 2014, 09:40:05 AM
Explain why the previous 10 presidents did nothing also then. Can't blame the current one without spreading it to the others.
The point isn't excusing anyone else. The point is, Obama acted like problems with the VA was news to him when this broke a few weeks ago. At least that's been the White House line. Apparently he knew all about these deficiencies back in 2007 or earlier. This not only was not the priority he claimed it would be if he were elected, he claimed ignorance of deficiencies in the system until now. Why wait until the light was shone on this, if it were such a priority.
I really don't care about excuses that "All people make big promises in their campaigns..." How about holding people accountable to their promises. Why should we accept any less?
Quote from: Hoss on May 23, 2014, 09:40:05 AM
Explain why the previous 10 presidents did nothing also then. Can't blame the current one without spreading it to the others.
True. All presidents are to blame for the shortcomings of their executive leadership, but lets look back at a few of the most recent presidents. Reagan, Clinton, Baby Bush. They all acknoledged that there were issues with the VA just as Obama did when he took office. The difference is that they actually took action and got results with the VA issues of their time. They did not claim no knowledge of the issues, or make up some story about how they heard about it in the news.
Reagan acknowledged a lack of oversight in the VA system when he was president so he created The Department of Veterans Affairs, to provide a cabinet level position that would report directly to the president. At the time the VA had a very high surgical mortality rate, and he signed a bill that required the VHA to research and report mortality rates in comparison to the general population. This greatly improved patient care and led to a host of expanded services in the 90's.
Clinton apponted Dr. Kenneth Kizer to modernize and improve the system and he mad sweeping changes, including decentralizing the system which lessened the bureaucracy and greatly increased the efficiency of VHA operations. The VHA was split up into 22 regions and directors were hired from the private sector instead of from within the system. This lead to some amazing results. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa021899
Baby Bush allocated an additional $1.4billion to mental health services at the VA called the Mental Health Strategic Plan because of an uptick in mental health issues as a result of soldiers coming back from war. This lead to a dramatic increase in the quality of VHA mental care, elevating it above civilian care in 7 out of 9 categories. http://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR956.html
Obama gave lots of speeches about veteran's care and pledged to make improvements during and just after his campaign in 2008. Finally in 2013, under guidance from the administration, the VHA embarked on an initiative called the PARIS program to "repair veterans' crumbling intimate relationships" http://issuu.com/pairs/docs/va_support http://fatherhoodchannel.com/2012/10/20/relationship-retreats-warriors-to-soul-mates-120/ As far as addressing issues related to falsified wait times and deaths as a result of lack of care, the administration has yet to announce an initiate, but they are looking into it and I'm sure there will be a series of speeches, an investigation, and a blue ribbon panel.
Perhaps the president will take some time on Memorial Day to outline his initiatives?
Quote from: AquaMan on May 23, 2014, 09:33:19 AM
Cynic. The VA does well once the vets get into the system. And will do even better when the system is properly funded. Too bad congress has spent so much time on obamacare and gotcha stuff. There was a time when VA hospitals were abysmal.
Good friend - neighbor across the street - VietNam veteran - got shot 3 times while in country (Sgt of infantry platoon). 3rd was the "million dollar" ticket home. He had great care while still on active, then got spun out and into the VA system. Spent some time (several events) in VA hospital in mid/late 70's. Kind of a snake pit, but at least they didn't kill him. By 80's, he was back in state into the Muskogee system, and not on waiting lists.... he said it was ok at that point... slow, but sure. After fully healed up, he did ok.
It has always been about proper funding. We are thrilled to death to buy a jet fighter at $3 billion + per plane (several per year!)...keeps the CEO's of the aerospace industry very happy. And keeps tens of thousands employed - can be good stuff. BUT - and you knew there had to be a but - we can only spend $120 million per year to provide services to over 9 million veterans**...?? And yet, Inhofe sees nothing wrong with this picture....he has been around for decades and has been his normal ineffective self on the topic - as in not doing anything real to help. And which committee is it he is on....oh, yeah....US Senate Committed on Armed Services....
Perspective moment -
3 billion....120 million...
Tens of thousands....9 million.
** I heard Chuck Hagel this morning state we have over 9 million vets to provide services for - I thought it was higher, but will go with his number. One would hope he would know.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 23, 2014, 10:46:56 AM
True. All presidents are to blame for the shortcomings of their executive leadership, but lets look back at a few of the most recent presidents. Reagan, Clinton, Baby Bush. They all acknoledged that there were issues with the VA just as Obama did when he took office. The difference is that they actually took action and got results with the VA issues of their time. They did not claim no knowledge of the issues, or make up some story about how they heard about it in the news.
Reagan acknowledged a lack of oversight in the VA system when he was president so he created The Department of Veterans Affairs, to provide a cabinet level position that would report directly to the president. At the time the VA had a very high surgical mortality rate, and he signed a bill that required the VHA to research and report mortality rates in comparison to the general population. This greatly improved patient care and led to a host of expanded services in the 90's.
Clinton apponted Dr. Kenneth Kizer to modernize and improve the system and he mad sweeping changes, including decentralizing the system which lessened the bureaucracy and greatly increased the efficiency of VHA operations. The VHA was split up into 22 regions and directors were hired from the private sector instead of from within the system. This lead to some amazing results. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa021899
Baby Bush allocated an additional $1.4billion to mental health services at the VA called the Mental Health Strategic Plan because of an uptick in mental health issues as a result of soldiers coming back from war. This lead to a dramatic increase in the quality of VHA mental care, elevating it above civilian care in 7 out of 9 categories. http://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR956.html
Obama gave lots of speeches about veteran's care and pledged to make improvements during and just after his campaign in 2008. Finally in 2013, under guidance from the administration, the VHA embarked on an initiative called the PARIS program to "repair veterans' crumbling intimate relationships" http://issuu.com/pairs/docs/va_support http://fatherhoodchannel.com/2012/10/20/relationship-retreats-warriors-to-soul-mates-120/ As far as addressing issues related to falsified wait times and deaths as a result of lack of care, the administration has yet to announce an initiate, but they are looking into it and I'm sure there will be a series of speeches, an investigation, and a blue ribbon panel.
Perhaps the president will take some time on Memorial Day to outline his initiatives?
Now how cool is that...!!?? I planted a little "earworm" in your head - Baby Bush!!!
But, you need to look at those funding levels I posted the other day - they can TALK about all those glittering generalities as much as they want - NONE of them did anything REAL other than talk.
Spending has trended up in the last few years - to the range I mentioned earlier.
Actual facts about Obama programs and funding for Veteran's Administration...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/veterans.pdf
Obama's funding...
Provides $61.85 billion, a 10.6 percent increase over 2010 to meet increased demand.
• Prioritizes the specialized care needed by veterans with post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, and other psychological and cognitive health needs.
• Provides advance appropriations for VA's Medical Care in 2013, which requires a multi-year budgeting approach to effectively manage medical care resources across multiple fiscal years.
• Dramatically expands benefits and medical care for veterans' caregivers.
• Increases the historic funding level for the Administration's ongoing efforts to combat veteran homelessness.
• Improves VA responsiveness and efficiency by beginning the implementation of a new paperless system that will provide faster and more accurate benefits claims processing and improve veterans' access to benefits information.
• Reduces spending for construction to focus resources on providing timely, high-quality care and benefits to veterans.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on May 23, 2014, 11:25:04 AM
Actual facts about Obama programs and funding for Veteran's Administration...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/veterans.pdf
Obama's funding...
Provides $61.85 billion, a 10.6 percent increase over 2010 to meet increased demand.
• Prioritizes the specialized care needed by veterans with post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, and other psychological and cognitive health needs.
• Provides advance appropriations for VA's Medical Care in 2013, which requires a multi-year budgeting approach to effectively manage medical care resources across multiple fiscal years.
• Dramatically expands benefits and medical care for veterans' caregivers.
• Increases the historic funding level for the Administration's ongoing efforts to combat veteran homelessness.
• Improves VA responsiveness and efficiency by beginning the implementation of a new paperless system that will provide faster and more accurate benefits claims processing and improve veterans' access to benefits information.
• Reduces spending for construction to focus resources on providing timely, high-quality care and benefits to veterans.
That shows the breakdown the one I linked to was missing... about half is pensions and disability - about $53 billion. (And yeah, I slipped some zeros in verbal description....which still is shown by the graph to be stagnant for the vast majority of the last 60+ years.)
It's Bush's fault.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/nancy-pelosi-blames-george-w.-bush-for-veterans-affairs-scandal/article/2548784
And the CJS is back.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
It's Bush's fault.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/nancy-pelosi-blames-george-w.-bush-for-veterans-affairs-scandal/article/2548784
Must be true then.
No way a politician says anything that isn't 100% true.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
It's Bush's fault.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/nancy-pelosi-blames-george-w.-bush-for-veterans-affairs-scandal/article/2548784
And the CJS is back.
How does that old crone still have a shred of credibility?
Some are pushing a voucher/private health care option for vets. Short term fix that I think is a no-brainer.
http://blogs.rollcall.com/218/veterans-affairs-chairman-proposes-private-option-for-veterans-stuck-on-va-wait-lists/
Quote from: Conan71 on May 23, 2014, 03:15:32 PM
How does that old crone still have a shred of credibility?
People still listen to Palin for God's sake.
Quote from: Townsend on May 23, 2014, 03:18:18 PM
People still listen to Palin for God's sake.
Yeah, but at least I can turn down the volume and not feel my lunch creeping up the back of my throat when Palin is on.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 23, 2014, 03:43:57 PM
Yeah, but at least I can turn down the volume and not feel my lunch creeping up the back of my throat when Palin is on.
What the hell does Sarah Palin have to do with this?
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 03:50:36 PM
What the hell does Sarah Palin have to do with this?
F, I know right? But she's still babbling about this and people are listening.
Crazy
Quote from: Townsend on May 23, 2014, 03:54:28 PM
F, I know right? But she's still babbling about this and people are listening.
Crazy
Like you apparently.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 03:58:07 PM
Like you apparently.
No, I've never listened to her in a serious manner.
She's the sludge at the bottom of the political porta-john.
Quote from: Townsend on May 23, 2014, 04:01:20 PM
No, I've never listened to her in a serious manner.
She's the sludge at the bottom of the political porta-john.
There's your "war on womyn" folks--democratic party style. Someone holding no elective office (although she is a former VP candidate and governor) who is viewed as smile in a port potty.
Meanwhile, we clearly have the blame game pushed by the House minority leader, an opinion incidentally that is contrary to the echo chamber in this forum that the probs with the VA go back 60 years and not just 6 plus years since BOOOSSSSHHHH was in office, and a lefty in here wants to talk about Palin.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 04:10:33 PM
There's your "war on womyn" folks--democratic party style. Someone holding no elective office (although she is a former VP candidate and governor) who is viewed as smile in a port potty.
Meanwhile, we clearly have the blame game pushed by the House minority leader, an opinion incidentally that is contrary to the echo chamber in this forum that the probs with the VA go back 60 years and not just 6 plus years since BOOOSSSSHHHH was in office, and a lefty in here wants to talk about Palin.
Head's up folks, some in here are so insanely crammed into the conservative corner they don't recognize a moderate Republican.
Jeez Gueez, Palin doesn't even know you exist. You should chill on the crushing. How bad has the online stalking gotten?
When folks are so hard-core one sided, your reading comprehension goes all poop-smeared. Re-read the comments. Until you popped off with an obvious need to Palin-hump, it barely had anything to do with her.
Quote from: Townsend on May 23, 2014, 04:19:14 PM
Head's up folks, some in here are so insanely crammed into the conservative corner they don't recognize a moderate Republican.
Jeez Gueez, Palin doesn't even know you exist. You should chill on the crushing. How bad has the online stalking gotten?
When folks are so hard-core one sided, your reading comprehension goes all poop-smeared. Re-read the comments. Until you popped off with an obvious need to Palin-hump, it barely had anything to do with her.
I'm waiting for it.....
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 04:35:42 PM
I'm waiting for it.....
(http://laurenhockenson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/alg_palin_show.jpg)
HEY HOSS! Let's talk about this smile on PM.
I'll conference you in.
Here is an interesting article for those that want to compare the VA mess to Obamacare. It also provides some insight into the history of the VA. Sorry, Palin does not weigh in on this article, though.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/05/23/no-the-va-isnt-a-preview-of-obamacare-its-much-worse/
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 04:35:42 PM
I'm waiting for it.....
Just like I waited for your 'Scanners' moment when Palin's name was taken in vain...
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing001.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
So, who is to blame?
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/chc449/world-of-warriorshaft
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/qelsqv/world-of-warriorshaft---terrible-memory-lane
Let's can rest easy, and feel better about this because the director of the Phoenix VA had to repay her performance bonus.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/05/22/veterans-affairs-executive-bonus/9434285/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/05/21/veterans-healthcare-scandal-shinseki-timeline/9373227/
Lets see, according to the established Obama scandal cycle, we should be around step 4 now.
1. Didn't know?? Learned about it from the news.
2. Outraged!! Muster outrage face and give outrage press conference.
3. Fire a low level official who can do little harm to the administration (promote whoever was in charge, or put them in charge of the investigation, that way it is in their best interest to protect Obama).
4. Commission an internal study or inquiry to be led by those directly involved with the scandal.
5. Wait until the public outrage dies down, or media fatigue sets in, frame any results or evidence as partisan, inconclusive, or otherwise not important.
6. Blame previous administration for failure.
7. Move on to next scandal and repeat steps.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 27, 2014, 10:18:56 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/05/21/veterans-healthcare-scandal-shinseki-timeline/9373227/
Lets see, according to the established Obama scandal cycle, we should be around step 4 now.
1. Didn't know?? Learned about it from the news.
2. Outraged!! Muster outrage face and give outrage press conference.
3. Fire a low level official who can do little harm to the administration (promote whoever was in charge, or put them in charge of the investigation, that way it is in their best interest to protect Obama).
4. Commission an internal study or inquiry to be led by those directly involved with the scandal.
5. Wait until the public outrage dies down, or media fatigue sets in, frame any results or evidence as partisan, inconclusive, or otherwise not important.
6. Blame previous administration for failure.
7. Move on to next scandal and repeat steps.
But where does golf fit in with the priorities on the schedule? Should I just insert a round of golf between each step?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 27, 2014, 10:20:21 AM
But where does golf fit in with the priorities on the schedule? Should I just insert a round of golf between each step?
Stop it! Golf is the only thing he has to get his mind off of all of the Bush problems he has to deal with.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 27, 2014, 10:25:58 AM
Stop it! Golf is the only thing he has to get his mind off of all of the Bush problems he has to deal with.
Hiding from scandal?
(https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/854707530.gif?1401235337)
Going from bad to worse.
QuoteA preliminary report released Wednesday found "serious conditions" at the Phoenix Veterans Affairs facility, including hundreds of veterans who were never placed on an official wait list and faulty scheduling practices that meant some veterans would never see a doctor.
"We identified an additional 1,700 veterans who were waiting for a primary care appointment but were not on the [electronic wait list,]" the report from the VA inspector general said. "Most importantly, these veterans were and continue to be at risk of being forgotten or lost in Phoenix [healthcare system's] convoluted scheduling process. As a result, these veterans may never obtain a requested or required clinical appointment."
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/28/1700-vets-not-official-wait-list-phoenix-va-prelim/#ixzz332LHYFwJ
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
VA operated like a "crime syndicate" in Texas?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/exclusive-texas-va-run-like-a-crime-syndicate-whistleblower-says.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_morning&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_morning&utm_term=Cheat%20Sheet
The hospital in Gainesville, FL is now under investigation for keeping paper lists instead of reporting wait times electronically, however according to Rep. Corrine Brown there is absolutely no problems with the VA system in the state of Florida.
They got new cemeteries! Problem solved.
We should start hearing the phrase "witch-hunt" being thrown around soon, and then the argument that the whole VA scandal is nothing more than a GOP plot to embarrass the president. Soon after that, any veteran who lodges a complaint can expect to be branded with whatever the new derogatory nick-name is (as of yet to be chosen and released to the media by the administration).
Quote from: Gaspar on May 29, 2014, 04:15:07 PM
We should start hearing the phrase "witch-hunt" being thrown around soon, and then the argument that the whole VA scandal is nothing more than a GOP plot to embarrass the president. Soon after that, any veteran who lodges a complaint can expect to be branded with whatever the new derogatory nick-name is (as of yet to be chosen and released to the media by the administration).
Your prognostications don't tend to follow reality.
You might read what you're looking for on some conservative website though.
Quote from: Townsend on May 29, 2014, 04:29:29 PM
Your prognostications don't tend to follow reality.
You might read what you're looking for on some conservative website though.
Wait...didn't he say he was a libertarian?...Wha???
;D
Glad you both could make it.
(http://plasticandplush.com/images/2011/01/tonner-tweedle-2.jpg)
Quote from: Gaspar on May 29, 2014, 04:56:02 PM
Glad you both could make it.
Hey look, Gaspar tried.
I listened to Obama on the VA this morning. Sounded presidential and am thankful for what he said.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 23, 2014, 03:43:57 PM
Yeah, but at least I can turn down the volume and not feel my lunch creeping up the back of my throat when Palin is on.
That shows you really aren't recovering.....you need to change that label.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 04:10:33 PM
There's your "war on womyn" folks--democratic party style. Someone holding no elective office (although she is a former VP candidate and governor) who is viewed as smile in a port potty.
Don't forget the other inconvenient facts surrounding the sludge....like the fact that she spent God knows how much of who's money running for governor and winning - and then when it got to be to much a "bother" 'cause it was interfering with her national Sludgefest, she quit right in the middle of the term!!
Could not even be bothered to do the job she SAID she wanted to be elected to!!
No war on women at all - just a recognition of her reality.
Quote from: guido911 on May 23, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
Here is an interesting article for those that want to compare the VA mess to Obamacare. It also provides some insight into the history of the VA. Sorry, Palin does not weigh in on this article, though.
Just got to spend a few days with brother in law in Knoxville area who has been using VA facilities for many years - from his military service in the Viet Nam era. We got to have some good conversations. He said he has never had better care that in the last 4 or 5 years - and he says it is excellent! The people are friendly, courteous, responsive, prompt, and BEST of all, he has been getting real help for some of the issues he has survived with over the previous 40 years of neglect.
But then, by whatever means it has happened - either by accident or intentional - the increased spending of the last few years is making improvements.
Typical Congress BS - get rid of the guy - Shinseki - who had actually started to have some positive effect on the situation. But I guess that's what ya do when ya can't accept personal responsibility for one's own inaction....the inaction of Congress!!
And oh, yeah.... Forbes?? Really....???? That's what you got?? Come on...you are better than that!! I've seen it before!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2014, 05:26:17 PM
Just got to spend a few days with brother in law in Knoxville area who has been using VA facilities for many years - from his military service in the Viet Nam era. We got to have some good conversations. He said he has never had better care that in the last 4 or 5 years - and he says it is excellent! The people are friendly, courteous, responsive, prompt, and BEST of all, he has been getting real help for some of the issues he has survived with over the previous 40 years of neglect.
But then, by whatever means it has happened - either by accident or intentional - the increased spending of the last few years is making improvements.
Typical Congress BS - get rid of the guy - Shinseki - who had actually started to have some positive effect on the situation. But I guess that's what ya do when ya can't accept personal responsibility for one's own inaction....the inaction of Congress!!
And oh, yeah.... Forbes?? Really....???? That's what you got?? Come on...you are better than that!! I've seen it before!
Yes changes have been made, and veteran coverage has improved, but it doesn't replaced that crap that veterans have received for the last 30+years. There are VA hospitals that have been beneficial to vets and they get the care they need, but there has been the neglect that has gone on for years, and the vets getting help has been small compared to those that need help.
It's sad that those people that volunteer to serve our country, get treated worse than those that come here illegally .
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2014, 05:26:17 PM
Just got to spend a few days with brother in law in Knoxville area who has been using VA facilities for many years - from his military service in the Viet Nam era. We got to have some good conversations. He said he has never had better care that in the last 4 or 5 years - and he says it is excellent! The people are friendly, courteous, responsive, prompt, and BEST of all, he has been getting real help for some of the issues he has survived with over the previous 40 years of neglect.
But then, by whatever means it has happened - either by accident or intentional - the increased spending of the last few years is making improvements.
Typical Congress BS - get rid of the guy - Shinseki - who had actually started to have some positive effect on the situation. But I guess that's what ya do when ya can't accept personal responsibility for one's own inaction....the inaction of Congress!!
And oh, yeah.... Forbes?? Really....???? That's what you got?? Come on...you are better than that!! I've seen it before!
I guess if your kin approves of the VA, then the 40 or so vets that may have died in Phoenix on a wait list means nothing. ::) You are way on the wrong side of this one, as both Dems and Rs wanted Shinseki gone--especially after that devastating OIG report.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2014/05/29/va-inspector-general-verifies-wait-time-manipulations/9707679/
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 30, 2014, 05:03:38 PM
That shows you really aren't recovering.....you need to change that label.
Uh meaning she is pleasing to look at when you can't hear what she's spouting out of her mouth. If you don't find her evenly marginally physically attractive you need to turn in your hetero card ;)
Quote from: guido911 on May 31, 2014, 07:47:18 PM
I guess if your kin approves of the VA, then the 40 or so vets that may have died in Phoenix on a wait list means nothing. ::) You are way on the wrong side of this one, as both Dems and Rs wanted Shinseki gone--especially after that devastating OIG report.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2014/05/29/va-inspector-general-verifies-wait-time-manipulations/9707679/
Actually, what I AM doing is pointing out the FACT that this is NOT a new thing - see previous posts - it DOES go back decades, and the changes that have been started are having an effect. Anyone with at least half a brain - and that excludes the vast majority of Faux news mouth-breathers - would understand that changes to a large entity of any kind take a great deal of time - and erasing 70 years of Congress caused neglect is gonna take more than 5 years!
And if you listen to "Mr. Miller" - and I use the term "Mr." so loosely as to resemble the results of contaminated food ingestion - saying they "are deadly serious...you can expect us to be over your shoulder every single day..." First question is, why did it take until NOW for Miller to get interested, since the OIG has been reporting this issue SINCE July 2005! And that the issues had been ongoing for some time before that? Just curious....
He has been there since 2001. And on the Armed Services committees - since 107th Congress. We are now in the 113th Congress. Why did he do nothing until NOW??? Oh, yeah.... it wasn't Obama before.....
Well, since there is a consensus as to who is to blame for the VA mess. I guess we can forget about it now and move on.
http://www.businessinsider.com/poll-almost-80-of-americans-obama-responsible-va-scandal-2014-6
Quote from: guido911 on June 03, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
Well, since there is a consensus as to who is to blame for the VA mess. I guess we can forget about it now and move on.
http://www.businessinsider.com/poll-almost-80-of-americans-obama-responsible-va-scandal-2014-6
Just like that same 80% thought Viet Nam was a good idea at the time, while rational people knew better.
And 90% or so were all about getting Iraq in 2003, as talked about elsewhere - when in reality, it was the wrong thing to do. But hey, 80% has got to be right, huh??
Like the 80% or so who used to think global climate issues were false.....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 04, 2014, 04:01:02 PM
Just like that same 80% thought Viet Nam was a good idea at the time, while rational people knew better.
And 90% or so were all about getting Iraq in 2003, as talked about elsewhere - when in reality, it was the wrong thing to do. But hey, 80% has got to be right, huh??
Like the 80% or so who used to think global climate issues were false.....
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96qikFvMa1qlydob.jpg)
Quote from: guido911 on June 04, 2014, 08:08:31 PM
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m96qikFvMa1qlydob.jpg)
Ahhhh....how cute!!
Way wrong, but cute.
Quote from: guido911 on June 03, 2014, 06:12:04 PM
Well, since there is a consensus as to who is to blame for the VA mess. I guess we can forget about it now and move on.
And there is always this....
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.