Many of us have been quite critical of this administration for more reasons than we can count, but most are related to increased dependence, decreased liberty, and far overreaching policies related to everything from surveillance and global assassination policy, to forced commerce. I think many of us saw this as the "full-court-press" towards the final and terminal stage of a typical democratic republic. However, the unexpected is happening. Liberty movements are gaining an influx of young people, who owe their new understanding on "lessons" not taught in university by socialist professors, but learned through experience. President Obama has provided an exhibition, condensed into 5 short years, illustrating policy flaw, executive ineptitude, and political self service. He has provided invaluable lessons on how government acts when it views itself as above and more powerful than it's citizenry.
Most importantly, those who used to clamor for prosperity from the golden hand of government, have learned that government is the primary source of their limitations, and if left unchecked, or worse, given unlimited executive privilege, would only strive to preserve concentrated power at the expense of individual rights.
I never thought I would say this but Obama was the exact wake-up call we needed, because any administration that follows will have to campaign on expanding freedoms, limiting executive power, and bringing back a degree of transparency that we lost. In doing so, future administrations will have to deliver more than lip-service, because a new young constituency now (finally) demands it.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/23/license-plates-guns-news-federal-government-column/5759933/
Wow you have been really out of touch the last 10 or 12 years.
Quote from: CharlieSheen on February 24, 2014, 10:38:48 AM
Wow you have been really out of touch the last 10 or 12 years.
Probably more.
I'm not disagreeing with the tone or overall message of the post, but I will disagree fervantly that any of this is a change. I'd say the biggest escalation was under Bush (with a largely Democratic Congress) making power grabs using "security" as a catch all do quash liberty, increase secrecy, and in the end curtail prosperity for most Americans. With Obama (with a largely Republican Congress), many were convinced or had Hope© that there would be drastic Change© and have been sorely disappointed on many fronts (notebly transparency and faux security status quo).
To say either started it would be false. To say Obama has significantly improved transperency or trust in government wouldn't be right either. I would argue that Uncle Sam has thought he knows best since about 1942 (maybe even the new deal) and has long since outgrown the constraints of limited government.
Is it getting worse? Probably. Do I hope some savior comes and immediately starts giving up power... sure. But I also want a unicorn that eats sunshine and happiness and craps rainbows. I will probably never get either one.
Thanks Obama.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 24, 2014, 11:13:59 AM
I'm not disagreeing with the tone or overall message of the post, but I will disagree fervantly that any of this is a change. I'd say the biggest escalation was under Bush (with a largely Democratic Congress) making power grabs using "security" as a catch all do quash liberty, increase secrecy, and in the end curtail prosperity for most Americans. With Obama (with a largely Republican Congress), many were convinced or had Hope© that there would be drastic Change© and have been sorely disappointed on many fronts (notebly transparency and faux security status quo).
To say either started it would be false. To say Obama has significantly improved transperency or trust in government wouldn't be right either. I would argue that Uncle Sam has thought he knows best since about 1942 (maybe even the new deal) and has long since outgrown the constraints of limited government.
Is it getting worse? Probably. Do I hope some savior comes and immediately starts giving up power... sure. But I also want a unicorn that eats sunshine and happiness and craps rainbows. I will probably never get either one.
Thanks Obama.
What he said
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 24, 2014, 11:13:59 AM
I'm not disagreeing with the tone or overall message of the post, but I will disagree fervantly that any of this is a change. I'd say the biggest escalation was under Bush (with a largely Democratic Congress) making power grabs using "security" as a catch all do quash liberty, increase secrecy, and in the end curtail prosperity for most Americans. With Obama (with a largely Republican Congress), many were convinced or had Hope© that there would be drastic Change© and have been sorely disappointed on many fronts (notebly transparency and faux security status quo).
To say either started it would be false. To say Obama has significantly improved transperency or trust in government wouldn't be right either. I would argue that Uncle Sam has thought he knows best since about 1942 (maybe even the new deal) and has long since outgrown the constraints of limited government.
Is it getting worse? Probably. Do I hope some savior comes and immediately starts giving up power... sure. But I also want a unicorn that eats sunshine and happiness and craps rainbows. I will probably never get either one.
Thanks Obama.
I don't think it is really a change at all. I think it has simply been a magnification. It's like watching a bad magician. My point, and I thought it was fairly clear, was that the current administration is so bad at it, that unlikely groups of people are actually waking up. The list of "intensions" were so grand, the "results" so divergent, and the acceptance of "responsibility" so absent.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 24, 2014, 12:31:32 PM
I don't think it is really a change at all. I think it has simply been a magnification. It's like watching a bad magician. My point, and I thought it was fairly clear, was that the current administration is so bad at it, that unlikely groups of people are actually waking up. The list of "intensions" were so grand, the "results" so divergent, and the acceptance of "responsibility" so absent.
Probably should've started the thread with
Quote"Many of us I have been quite critical of this administration for more reasons than we I can count,"
Quote from: Townsend on February 24, 2014, 12:34:09 PM
Probably should've started the thread with
Hey Towney, there is something to be said for loyalists like yourself! You have to give a nod of recognition to those willing to devote themselves without waver to an individual or ideology, even after they suffer the slings of its failure. I can't say I understand this degree of faith or the accompanying worship, but it cannot be denied as powerful and important to a politician.
(http://www.dakotavoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/ObamaHalo.jpg)
President Obama may be one of the most successful politicians in his ability to cultivate such fervor, but you may count yourself as one of the dwindling few remaining. Hang in there. Perhaps the faithful shall be rewarded. ;)
Ok, now that's just me being all snark. ;D
Quote from: Gaspar on February 24, 2014, 12:58:14 PM
Hey Towney, there is something to be said for loyalists like yourself! You have to give a nod of recognition to those willing to devote themselves without waver to an individual or ideology, even after they suffer the slings of its failure. I can't say I understand this degree of faith or the accompanying worship, but it cannot be denied as powerful and important to a politician.
(http://www.dakotavoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/ObamaHalo.jpg)
President Obama may be one of the most successful politicians in his ability to cultivate such fervor, but you may count yourself as one of the dwindling few remaining. Hang in there. Perhaps the faithful shall be rewarded. ;)
Ok, now that's just me being all snark. ;D
You must be dizzy after that...
^^^together again.
(http://www.marnejaye.com/gallery/LoveBirds.jpg)
Quote from: guido911 on February 25, 2014, 04:22:02 AM
^^^together again.
(http://www.marnejaye.com/gallery/LoveBirds.jpg)
Yep, here comes the stalker. Guess Gweed has a sad because he doesn't have real friends.
(http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=110408,filename=20120926_young-obama-supporters_33.jpg)
Millennials are growing up, and with that comes a degree of maturity, and for some, the loss of the "rock-star worship" of adolescence. Disillusion in Obama and his policies is a strong factor in this Change®. The Republican party will likely continue to bar the door with outdated social policies and unless Hillary can re-invent herself, she will also lose out on a small percentage of these newly enlightened.
Hopefully it will be a long time before a political leader causes his followers to faint in the United States again. We should never be that country.
Harvard offers some interesting insight:
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/blog/iop-releases-new-fall-poll-5-key-findings-and-trends-millennial-viewpoints?utm_source=email&utm_medium=pressrelease&utm_campaign=Fall2013Survey
I think gaspar is just too focused on President Obama as the catalyst.
This "new" trend for Liberty is not new at all. It is just another cycle. This is just coming back around again. I believe that these thoughts and movements are like fashion and if you wait long enough, they will again be popular.
I see it happening in the environmental movement. We have real passion for celebrating Earth day about every ten years and it lasts for a couple of years and then fizzles. I see it in simple things like knitting, which is suddenly huge with celebrities doing it. TV shows used to be all about rural America (Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, Mayberry RFD) and now include Duck Dynasty, Swamp People and Honey BooBoo. These are all cycled and have little to do with one single starting point or person.
If anything, the catalyst for people talking about liberty is probably more focused on what local police forces or airport security workers are doing. The NSA has been scary for much longer than Obama has been President. Blame them, not the President.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2014, 08:40:50 AM
I think gaspar is just too focused on President Obama as the catalyst.
He posts things spinning about in his noggin as reality. There are multiple issues going on.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2014, 08:40:50 AM
I think gaspar is just too focused on President Obama as the catalyst.
This "new" trend for Liberty is not new at all. It is just another cycle. This is just coming back around again. I believe that these thoughts and movements are like fashion and if you wait long enough, they will again be popular.
I see it happening in the environmental movement. We have real passion for celebrating Earth day about every ten years and it lasts for a couple of years and then fizzles. I see it in simple things like knitting, which is suddenly huge with celebrities doing it. TV shows used to be all about rural America (Green Acres, Beverly Hillbillies, Mayberry RFD) and now include Duck Dynasty, Swamp People and Honey BooBoo. These are all cycled and have little to do with one single starting point or person.
If anything, the catalyst for people talking about liberty is probably more focused on what local police forces or airport security workers are doing. The NSA has been scary for much longer than Obama has been President. Blame them, not the President.
But, there is usually some sort of catalyst for changes in that cycle. Many idealistic young Americans believed this utopian fairy tale of Obama. No more Constitutional over-reaching, every last citizen would have quality healthcare. Every citizen was going to have a great paying job, no worrying where that next mortgage payment or car payment would come from.
-Big evil corporations would pay for past misdeeds and greed and all sorts of jobs would be created because of Obama coming down hard on them. The reality is, big corporations are more profitable than ever with fewer workers.
-Big insurance would be brought to it's knees and everyone would have free or "affordable" healthcare. The reality is, big insurance had a seat at the table and they are the big winner in the ACA.
-No more worrying about possible spying from our own government via the Patriot Act. Well, we know now how that has worked out between the IRS and NSA.
There are millions of people who hoped his promises of prosperity and reigned in power would shine on them who haven't found that prosperity after five years.
People are coming to the realization that behind all the wonderful speeches and promises Obama is every bit as corrupt as previous leaders and seems to have even less respect for the Constitutional limits on his powers. If he doesn't get his way, he rules by executive order.
I honestly think people are starting to see his actions as totalitarian and that he views himself as some sort of monarch, not a leader.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2014, 09:28:43 AM
I honestly think people are starting to see his actions as totalitarian and that he views himself as some sort of monarch, not a leader.
You think people haven't said that about most or all of the Presidents at some time?
That's not some new thing being said about Obama just recently. The Tea Party's been saying it since they first started their "I'm not a witch" campaigns.
Quote from: Townsend on February 25, 2014, 09:54:57 AM
You think people haven't said that about most or all of the Presidents at some time?
That's not some new thing being said about Obama just recently. The Tea Party's been saying it since they first started their "I'm not a witch" campaigns.
But there's been no shift within the Tea Party in their view of the president. The shift is happening elsewhere, that is what is significant.
Bush's actions or inactions was one thing that helped swing voters to Obama. Now that Obama has had five years to show what he is really made of, the pendulum starts to swing the other way for people who are less committed to a fixed ideology like the Teahadists you mention.
Perhaps the Repiglican Party will realize their social platforms are out-dated and realize liberty is more important than trying to restrict who can and can't be married. Or maybe realize what a complete waste of money a war on marijuana is. It's interesting, the older I get the more I realize very few in the GOP would know fiscal conservatism or personal liberties if either smacked them in the face.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 25, 2014, 10:29:39 AM
But there's been no shift within the Tea Party in their view of the president.
I was using the tea party as an extreme example.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2014, 08:40:50 AM
This "new" trend for Liberty is not new at all.
http://www.learnliberty.org/videos/liberty-movements-american-history/
We all see things through our own filters, and the liberty movement has been around for quite a while. RM posts a video from one of my all time favorite sites.
The big difference is in current perception. More people are willing to accept, discuss, and understand how Obama, NSA, IRS, Debt, Minimum wage, extended unemployment, and expansion of government power diminishes liberty.
We have to give thanks to Obama for bringing all of these things together, and doing so in a way that the public can truly see why it unwise to place trust in any politician or government.
That is a giggle. You're good for that.
Too bad you have no sense of real history or you might note all of those were instigated and flourished for decades before your flowering or Obama's. Some from the very beginning of our country. But no, it all coalesces around Obama. The nexus of all problems is found in Obama. Therefore, the solution to all problems is understanding and embracing all that is Obama so that we may fight the Obama from within and wash it from our souls. And of course anyone who doesn't understand that is a deluded, socialist, Obama defender. There is no middle ground or room for equivocation. Thus spaketh the voice from the gas.
At what point does our liberty vanish? If Obama, the evil unions and the skeechy Dems can't do it now, then who and when? Tell us so that we may live in the beauty of your intelligence and prosper under real liberty.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 25, 2014, 05:41:31 PM
That is a giggle. You're good for that.
Too bad you have no sense of real history or you might note all of those were instigated and flourished for decades before your flowering or Obama's. Some from the very beginning of our country. But no, it all coalesces around Obama. The nexus of all problems is found in Obama. Therefore, the solution to all problems is understanding and embracing all that is Obama so that we may fight the Obama from within and wash it from our souls. And of course anyone who doesn't understand that is a deluded, socialist, Obama defender. There is no middle ground or room for equivocation. Thus spaketh the voice from the gas.
At what point does our liberty vanish? If Obama, the evil unions and the skeechy Dems can't do it now, then who and when? Tell us so that we may live in the beauty of your intelligence and prosper under real liberty.
Damn, soda burns coming out the nose....
Quote from: AquaMan on February 25, 2014, 05:41:31 PM
That is a giggle. You're good for that.
Too bad you have no sense of real history or you might note all of those were instigated and flourished for decades before your flowering or Obama's. Some from the very beginning of our country. But no, it all coalesces around Obama. The nexus of all problems is found in Obama. Therefore, the solution to all problems is understanding and embracing all that is Obama so that we may fight the Obama from within and wash it from our souls. And of course anyone who doesn't understand that is a deluded, socialist, Obama defender. There is no middle ground or room for equivocation. Thus spaketh the voice from the gas.
At what point does our liberty vanish? If Obama, the evil unions and the skeechy Dems can't do it now, then who and when? Tell us so that we may live in the beauty of your intelligence and prosper under real liberty.
That was good. I needed that.
You're a smart, creative guy with a good education, humorous and apparently possess some humility.
Quote from: AquaMan on February 25, 2014, 05:41:31 PM
That is a giggle. You're good for that.
Too bad you have no sense of real history or you might note all of those were instigated and flourished for decades before your flowering or Obama's Bush's. Some from the very beginning of our country. But no, it all coalesces around Obama Bush. The nexus of all problems is found in Obama Bush. Therefore, the solution to all problems is understanding and embracing all that is Obama Bush so that we may fight the Obama Bush from within and wash it from our souls. And of course anyone who doesn't understand that is a deluded, socialist Neo-con, Obama Bush defender. There is no middle ground or room for equivocation. Thus spaketh the voice from the gas left.
At what point does our liberty vanish? If Obama Bush, the evil unions (insert here: Banksters, Teabaggers, RWRE) and the skeechy Dems Rethugs can't do it now, then who and when? Tell us so that we may live in the beauty of your intelligence and prosper under real liberty.
Sound familiar?
Not to me. At least not around these parts.
Quote from: Hoss on February 25, 2014, 07:32:21 AM
Yep, here comes the stalker. Guess Gweed has a sad because he doesn't have real friends.
(http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/866/8685/original.jpg?w=600&h)
Quote from: guido911 on March 01, 2014, 05:10:26 AM
(http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/866/8685/original.jpg?w=600&h)
Thanks for proving my point.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Gaspar on February 25, 2014, 01:24:28 PM
The big difference is in current perception. More people are willing to accept, discuss, and understand how Obama, NSA, IRS, Debt, Minimum wage, extended unemployment, and expansion of government power diminishes liberty.
Well, if you throw out Obama, the IRS, and the debt, yes, young people are becoming more willing to accept and discuss those topics in a way that would make you smile. You would not be very happy with their opinions on the debt, health care, the minimum wage, unemployment benefits, or social programs in general. Unlike you, they do not see government as the problem, they see cronyism and corruption as the problem.
You have this unshakable conviction that cronyism and corruption are inherent in government more so than other instruments of power. They are not. They happen when we allow one class of people to take over the levers of power. Doesn't matter whether it's the left, the right, the poor, or the rich, packing the positions of power with one group means that group will use that power to their advantage and to the disadvantage of those not represented. Given that the vast majority of both parties are presently populated by unfettered corporatists, guess who is getting the white glove treatment today? How many more no bid contracts, tax subsidies, and other favors will it take before you wake up and smell the coffee?
To be fair, I do point and laugh more at the righties, but that's because they read our history about as well as Jerry Falwell reads the Bible. That is to say, they read what they wish was written, not what is actually there. At least the corporatist Democrats don't try to justify their behavior with what amounts to religion.
Quote
It seems that a minority has more control over this state and nation than the majority; it wants to do away with our hand gun protection, our military, our national defense, our industry and our jobs. Wake up voters and take a hard look at what goes on.
That was written in
1984. Thirty years later, the right parrots the same tired lines as if nothing has changed. You'd think that their policy prescriptions might have changed in response to the end of the Cold War, globalization, the Internet, and everything else that has dramatically reshaped the world, but no.