Interesting graphic.
http://splashurl.com/kxzkq2m
No surprises.
Kind of staffering how much corporations support the GOP and workers groups support the Democrats. I expected that, but still... the divide is so stark.
Another fault of the two party system. If "good" democrats are for workers, then "good" republicans have to he for corporations. Stupid binary system.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 14, 2014, 09:51:05 AM
Kind of staffering how much corporations support the GOP and workers groups support the Democrats. I expected that, but still... the divide is so stark.
Another fault of the two party system. If "good" democrats are for workers, then "good" republicans have to he for corporations. Stupid binary system.
Neither party has a genuine interest in the individual.
Both of those groups, Labor Unions, and Corporations, rely on the politics of their chosen party to deliver favor. Labor unions increase their membership through laws that restrict worker choice, and corporations profit through laws that expand economic growth and opportunity. The insidious side is that both seek to limit competition with the sword of government.
Meanwhile, any politician who chooses to truly represent individual freedom and the protection of individual rights is ridiculed by both parties, and excluded from the process to such an extent as to frighten most from service.
I am not that old, but I have never seen such a divide in this country as we have now. Used to be that the two parties could work together, and through the rough and tumble of debate, come to some agreement. Now the Dems are so very obsessed grouping people and convincing them that each group cannot survive unless they are delivered some government program or protection, and Repubs are obsessed with antiquated social code and complete lack of humanity that they have alienated the younger generation, and literally pushed them into the arms of their political enemies.
For additional parties to emerge, and thrive, it will be necessary for those who consider themselves (R) or (D) to listen to ideas instead of rhetoric, and consider results instead of politics.
Gas, I agree with your premise - but understand you lost any persuasive effect when you categorized labor as destroying choice and corporations trying to expand growth and opportunity. At the most desolate level:
Labor wants to suck as much money from companies as possible for as little work as they can. Unions arethe most effective means of doing so.
Companies want to make as much money as possible. With employees being a or the significant expense paying labor as little as possible while getting as much work as possible is a stated goal.
It has nothing to do with choice. Nothing to do with opportunity or economic growth. It is ME getting more and trying to get laws passed to benefit ME.
Just see the fight going on in Tennessee over VW. The UAW wants to unionize. VW doesn't care. But the GOP is actively (and illegally) fighting unionization. It isn't to increase VWs economic prosperity or opportunity because VW isn't in the fight. It isn't to increase workers opportunity or growth. It is to benefit the Tennessee GOP on behalf of other plants that don't want a union presence (to be clear, I'm sure the Democrats have an analogous circumstance of behaving badly).
To get more political donations.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 14, 2014, 11:50:03 AM
Gas, I agree with your premise - but understand you lost any persuasive effect when you categorized labor as destroying choice and corporations trying to expand growth and opportunity. At the most desolate level:
Labor wants to suck as much money from companies as possible for as little work as they can. Unions arethe most effective means of doing so.
Companies want to make as much money as possible. With employees being a or the significant expense paying labor as little as possible while getting as much work as possible is a stated goal.
It has nothing to do with choice. Nothing to do with opportunity or economic growth. It is ME getting more and trying to get laws passed to benefit ME.
Just see the fight going on in Tennessee over VW. The UAW wants to unionize. VW doesn't care. But the GOP is actively (and illegally) fighting unionization. It isn't to increase VWs economic prosperity or opportunity because VW isn't in the fight. It isn't to increase workers opportunity or growth. It is to benefit the Tennessee GOP on behalf of other plants that don't want a union presence (to be clear, I'm sure the Democrats have an analogous circumstance of behaving badly).
To get more political donations.
Agreed. I tend to hold profit, growth, and opportunity as synonymous. Probably poor teaching on my parent's account. I never learned to associate profit with anything negative.
As for unions, I can accept your definition however in today's world the union no longer serves it's original purpose and spends most of it's time and energy on self preservation, I don't think the unions show much effectiveness in serving the worker. On the contrary, most unions do nothing more than lobby for, protest in favor of, and threaten to inhibit businesses from hiring and contracting individuals. If unions cared about attracting workers by promoting less work and more pay, they wouldn't need to work so hard at protesting non-union businesses, lobbying for political favor, and shutting out non-union venders from contracts.
I lived in St. Louis for a while and one of the things I did was volunteer to teach BLS (CPR) classes to the local Pipe Fitters union. I learned a lot of shocking things about union families. Many of the young kids (18-20s) that were required to take my class couldn't read enough to take a test at the end of the class. Most had fathers and grandfathers that were also union and any talk of another profession outside of the union, or heaven forbid going to college was strongly discouraged. You could get beat up or killed for jumping the union. Outside of the political spectacle we see every day there is a very strong and old social fabric behind the union owned workforce, and it's primary focus is on self preservation at all costs.
As for the VW controversy, VW wants to unionize that plant, but they want the European style of union. It's the same thing that Daimler tried to do with Chrisler back in the 90s, when they tried to convert the way the union operated into the way it operated in Germany with the council approach. UAW will go along with this until they get their contract, but after that, the council approach will never be implemented, because just like when Daimler tried it, the union will not allow incentive systems where workers are rewarded for performance, production, and quality. With Daimler it was a miserable failure. They paid almost $37 billion for Chrysler and had to dump it for about $8 billion.
Germans abhor laziness, and lack of precision. It's part of their culture. In their factories they set up work councils with the goal of improving processes, production, and rewarding innovation. Workers are encouraged to work harder and smarter and are rewarded for improvement. VW would be wise to give Dieter Zetsche a call before trusting the UAW to do anything beyond downgrading their workforce.
Worth a read!
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/02/14/what-the-hell-just-happened-in-kansas/
If the Republican Party wanted to demonstrate that it wants no votes from anyone under 40, it couldn't have found a better way to do it. Some critics have reacted to this law with the view that it is an outrageous new version of Jim Crow and a terrifying portent of the future for gays in some red states. It is both of those. It's the kind of law that Vladimir Putin would enthusiastically support. But it is also, to my mind, a fatal mis-step for the movement to keep gay citizens in a marginalized, stigmatized place.
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights. But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
How do we find a good middle ground?
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
How do we find a good middle ground?
Figure out how to solve that one, both between workforce and corporations, as well as our political leaders, and then say "Thank you for this Nobel".
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights. But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
American, as with the UAW in the 70s and 80s, was largely a problem of completely broken management-labor relations. Turns out, it's not about lazy and shiftless union workers, or even greedy union bosses or management. Change the system, and people change with it.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/transcript
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights. But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
How do we find a good middle ground?
Work for yourself, be your own boss and your own employee.
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights. But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
How do we find a good middle ground?
Wal-Martz apparently provides a job people are willing to take for a given wage, otherwise they would pay more or be seriously under-staffed. That's life in the free market.
You won't hear much about this today.
http://freebeacon.com/democratic-donor-pleads-guilty-to-illegal-campaign-donations/
Guaranteed to get page 6 treatment on the state-run media.
A major Democratic donor pleaded guilty on Monday to funneling millions of dollars in illegal campaign donations to federal and local politicians, including an unnamed 2008 presidential candidate believed to be Hillary Clinton.
District of Columbia businessman Jeffrey Thompson, who federal prosecutors say financed a "shadow campaign" for D.C. Mayor Vincent Gray in 2010, pleaded guilty to conspiracy to violate campaign finance laws.
If they could only catch those damn Koch brothers now!
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights. But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
How do we find a good middle ground?
Tell us about the value of this union....I know, this is "alleged"
QuoteThe most shocking accusations are contained in Hooks' case against International Longshore and Warehouse Union Local 4 in Vancouver.
After investigating charges filed by the company, Hooks alleged longshore picketers shone spotlights into vehicles entering and exiting United Grain's terminal, blocking drivers' vision and causing permanent eye injury to a security officer. Hooks alleged locked-out workers recklessly pursued company vans, threatened to harm Columbia River pilots and pinned a security officer's leg under a moving vehicle.
Hooks alleged that Local 4 members "threatened to rape the daughter of one of the employer's managers," and implied threats to harm a manager's children by telling him they would "see his children at school" and asking, "are (his) children okay today?"
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/03/nlrb_ilwu_longshore_united_gra.html
Quote from: guido911 on March 11, 2014, 01:33:41 PM
Tell us about the value of this union....I know, this is "alleged"
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/03/nlrb_ilwu_longshore_united_gra.html
That dispute has been going on for at least two years. The long shore men have basically cut the production of the port in half, the dump grain in the middle of the dock, and the truckers that move cargo in an out are lucky to get one load in or out in a day.
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/no_wonder_longshoremen_dont_ca.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/no_wonder_longshoremen_dont_ca.html)
http://www.ucimc.org/content/washington-state-longshore-workers-dump-scab-grain-protect-jobs (http://www.ucimc.org/content/washington-state-longshore-workers-dump-scab-grain-protect-jobs)
http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/oct/08/ilwu-grain-group-set-talks-port-vancouver/ (http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/oct/08/ilwu-grain-group-set-talks-port-vancouver/)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on March 11, 2014, 03:19:37 PM
That dispute has been going on for at least two years. The long shore men have basically cut the production of the port in half, the dump grain in the middle of the dock, and the truckers that move cargo in an out are lucky to get one load in or out in a day.
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/no_wonder_longshoremen_dont_ca.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2014/02/no_wonder_longshoremen_dont_ca.html)
http://www.ucimc.org/content/washington-state-longshore-workers-dump-scab-grain-protect-jobs (http://www.ucimc.org/content/washington-state-longshore-workers-dump-scab-grain-protect-jobs)
http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/oct/08/ilwu-grain-group-set-talks-port-vancouver/ (http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/oct/08/ilwu-grain-group-set-talks-port-vancouver/)
Just as long as the supply of two-row malted barley isn't in danger, I could care less. ;)
Quote from: Conan71 on March 11, 2014, 10:51:04 PM
Just as long as the supply of two-row malted barley isn't in danger, I could care less. ;)
Doesn't most of that come from Europe to the East Coast? Well, what doesn't originate here in the USA anyway.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 11, 2014, 10:51:04 PM
Just as long as the supply of two-row malted barley isn't in danger, I could care less. ;)
Well fortunately things are quiet in Seattle and San Francisco, so if it comes into the PNW you should be alright. ;D
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 14, 2014, 09:51:05 AM
Kind of staffering how much corporations support the GOP and workers groups support the Democrats. I expected that, but still... the divide is so stark.
Another fault of the two party system. If "good" democrats are for workers, then "good" republicans have to he for corporations. Stupid binary system.
It's easy when you understand the actual reality behind it.
To Democrats, low wages are the problem.
The Republicans, low wages are the solution.
Quote from: Gaspar on February 14, 2014, 01:03:56 PM
I lived in St. Louis for a while and one of the things I did was volunteer to teach BLS (CPR) classes to the local Pipe Fitters union. I learned a lot of shocking things about union families. Many of the young kids (18-20s) that were required to take my class couldn't read enough to take a test at the end of the class.
As for the VW controversy, VW wants to unionize that plant, but they want the European style of union. It's the same thing that Daimler tried to do with Chrisler back in the 90s, when they tried to convert the way the union operated into the way it operated in Germany with the council approach.
Couldn't read, huh... could they spell?
Sorry...just couldn't resist....and you did spell it correctly later on.
Quote from: swake on February 14, 2014, 10:35:22 PM
What causes unions to become an albatross? They have value, at least in the early term of unionization. Wal-Mart badly needs unions to protect and promote worker rights.
But then they become a company killer like with American where workers no longer work for the success of the company.
How do we find a good middle ground?
HUGE crock-o-carp there!! Unions had NOTHING to do with killing American. It was just like GM - inept incompetent mangement (spelled the way it really is....) the ran both into the ground.
Wow, lots of assassins listed! ( Assn )
This Subaru dealership knows how to do it!
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/p526x395/1957808_598005730290953_559737682_o.jpg)
Wichita State coach interviewed. Preparing for the inevitable:
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcRNm70lUX9ZNIM32AkYqWqON3ck2cfHeQOfaJ69U5MXQLlZ5wcg)
QuoteCarchia: What is your idea of a perfect day?
Marshall: I'm with family and friends at the beach on a beautiful 75-degree day. We go out and walk our dogs in the morning, play golf midmorning, and late afternoon have a cerveza or two on the beach and watch the sunset.
Carchia: Which living person do you most admire?
Marshall: Charles Koch. He's a Wichitan who owns the second-largest privately owned company, Koch Industries. He and his brother [David] are tied for the fourth-richest man in America, and he's done it with great integrity and commitment to the community. He's incredibly brilliant.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10568202/wichita-state-coach-gregg-marshall-first-undefeated-season-espn-magazine
Did you not know there were two of 'em? ;D
Quote from: guido911 on March 19, 2014, 06:44:02 PM
Wichita State coach interviewed. Preparing for the inevitable:
I like that quote - "great integrity" in the same sentence as Koch Brothers....lol. Lol. LOL....subsides to giggles....