(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/6d/96dd6d96-5dcc-11e3-8705-0019bb30f31a/52a0adad60309.image.jpg)
Quote
A local business will be bringing a 120-room hotel to be built in the next phase of One Place in front of the BOK Center, Tulsa Development Authority commissioners were told Thursday.
Paresh "Pete" Patel, president of locally-owned Promise Hotels, said the $15 million development will provide about 50 jobs, not including construction work.
"We'd like to get you checked in by early 2016," Patel said to a TDA commissioner.
It's the fourth announcement of a downtown hotel development in recent weeks and the second by Patel.
The 86,000 square feet, 120-room hotel will connect to the other buildings at One Place and will not have dedicated parking.
Bob Eggleston, One Place developer, said parking is not required for the building and is available within a block of the planned hotel.
Eggleston said other major cities have downtown hotels which thrive without dedicated parking.
The planned Hampton Inn will be the third Hilton-brand hotel in downtown Tulsa, which includes Hilton Garden Inn -- currently under development by Patel's Promise Hotels.
Promise Hotels' ownership consists of nine hotels, 900 rooms and 250 employees in the Tulsa area, according to a release.
Construction will be managed by The Ross Group, a company with offices in Oklahoma City that managed construction of the Jenks' Oklahoma Aquarium.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/another-hotel-announced-today-for-downtown/article_3da7a1bc-5dca-11e3-8dc6-0019bb30f31a.html (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/another-hotel-announced-today-for-downtown/article_3da7a1bc-5dca-11e3-8dc6-0019bb30f31a.html)
I assume this will include the inviting interior courtyard, street level retail, and other pedestrian friendly aspects sold to the TDA on the original plan for the larger development?
No, not really. It will just be a hotel plopped onto the lot.
Nice looking rendering. Kind of like the no dedicated parking thing (plenty of ramps within valet distance). Happy that a local company is doing it and obvious glad something is going up.
But I'm tired of the bait and switch:
Announced:
(http://ktul.images.worldnow.com/images/14972015_BG2.jpg)
Revised:
(http://ww3.tulsachamber.com/upload/image/Downtown/One%20Place%20project%20rendering%20320.jpg)
Reality:
(http://journalrecord.com/files/2013/02/One-Place_55_RIP-copy.jpg)
all within 2 years! Probably not the developers fault, probably TDA somehow. Again, happy for development. Nice looking plan. But when you are sold on a GREAT idea and what you get is something good... you end up disappointed.
Yeah. I don't really get it. The initial renderings were fantastic. Looked like complete mixed use and almost a street level shopping mall atmosphere on the bottom floors. Almost (not quite) like Kansas City's development across from their arena. Instead there is an office tower with the bottom floors as a parking garage and an okay looking building with only one street level tenant so far. Disappointing to say the least.
Quote from: DowntownDan on December 05, 2013, 11:50:09 AM
Instead there is an office tower with the bottom floors as a parking garage and an okay looking building with only one street level tenant so far. Disappointing to say the least.
More are coming.
Quote from: Townsend on December 05, 2013, 12:08:49 PM
More are coming.
I had to take another look to see what you had emboldened. I thought you meant more disappointments were coming.
One Place is turning out to be a real missed opportunity for something great. It's better than the surface parking it has mostly replaced, but is hard not to be disappointed.
Quote from: DTowner on December 05, 2013, 04:01:29 PM
One Place is turning out to be a real missed opportunity for something great. It's better than the surface parking it has mostly replaced, but is hard not to be disappointed.
It's barely been up a year. Simma down...
But we gout our Doobie Bartlett again!! We must be aheads of the game...
Quote from: Hoss on December 05, 2013, 04:08:02 PM
It's barely been up a year. Simma down...
The passing of a few years won't make the design/style of this development any better or more interesting. This was prime real estate next to one of Tulsa's show piece public projects. As can be seen from the earlier renderings above, there was a real chance to have something specatacular. Instead we got a boring utilitarian office building/parking garage and some retail restaurant spaces (mostly empyt so far) that don't interact particularly well with streets/sidewalks. This Hampton Inn does not do much to improve on what's been done so far and that doesn't give much hope that the planned apartments (if they ever get built), will be much better. As I said before, it's better than what was here, but it falls well short of its potential. Perhaps I'm getting spoiled buy other successes downtown, but to me One Place is disappointing because it missed hitting its potential.
I'm happy with this design (provided that it doesn't change dramatically) , it will make a nice transition from the BOK area to the DECO area.
Time to do a new room count on existing and proposed downtown hotels again, I would say that we are close to filling the forecast that was published several years ago.
Now it's time to beef up retail shopping in downtown so all of these visitors will have something to do while they are here and pay our taxes for us.
(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/6d/96dd6d96-5dcc-11e3-8705-0019bb30f31a/52a0adad60309.image.jpg)
Can someone please clarify, but was this the space that was targeted for a full line hotel? If it was, well I guess I'm still happy about the announcement. Hampton Inn is a nice brand and is a good coup for downtown.
From the rendering, the exterior appears unfriendly as if to send a message to keep moving there's nothing inviting here. But perhaps there's more to it than meets the eye.
Looking at the first image in the "bait and switch" announcement rendering showing the street level retail, this would have been a great space for the outlet stores that are likely coming to the suburbs or exurbs of Tulsa. But since it obviously can't happen with this project, I'll still envision outlet shopping in a well conceived stylish downtown streetscape setting with traditional storefronts on sidewalks. I'd really like to see something like this incorporated through a combination of refurbishment, repurposing, and infill. It could become a true destination and marketed as such like all other outlet centers.
It could also an epicenter to provide the large draw of the gen pop into downtown that is lacking on a consistent basis, serve as a catalyst for further development of all types, compliment the independent specialty retail and business and culture that we'd like to cultivate and attract, and it would not directly compete for conventional mall shoppers since the concepts and business models are different.
Without major league sports and a magnitude greater of more residents than what currently resides in the core, this may be one of the more viable alternatives to move downtown to the next frontier.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 05, 2013, 05:36:18 PM
Can someone please clarify, but was this the space that was targeted for a full line hotel? If it was, well I guess I'm still happy about the announcement. Hampton Inn is a nice brand and is a good coup for downtown.
From the rendering, the exterior appears unfriendly as if to send a message to keep moving there's nothing inviting here. But perhaps there's more to it than meets the eye.
Looking at the first image in the "bait and switch" announcement rendering showing the street level retail, this would have been a great space for the outlet stores that are likely coming to the suburbs or exurbs of Tulsa. But since it obviously can't happen with this project, I'll still envision outlet shopping in a well conceived stylish downtown streetscape setting with traditional storefronts on sidewalks. I'd really like to see something like this incorporated through a combination of refurbishment, repurposing, and infill. It could become a true destination and marketed as such like all other outlet centers.
It could also an epicenter to provide the large draw of the gen pop into downtown that is lacking on a consistent basis, serve as a catalyst for further development of all types, compliment the independent specialty retail and business and culture that we'd like to cultivate and attract, and it would not directly compete for conventional mall shoppers since the concepts and business models are different.
Without major league sports and a magnitude greater of more residents than what currently resides in the core, this may be one of the more viable alternatives to move downtown to the next frontier.
Outlet store developers seem to prefer visible spots off high traffic freeways well outside downtown areas. The main reason I suspect for this is easy access on and off, as well as being a draw for people from out of town.
Do I see trees on the roof? A rooftop bar would be pretty cool here, unless it's just a space for hotel guests. The street level looks decent with the large windows. A coffee shop at the corner would help liven it up more.
I guess we can hope the residential component at 3rd & Denver is a better design. And I think we're probably good for a few years with limited service hotels downtown..
There is definitely a trend toward more limited service hotel properties. The full service properties are just too costly to operate these days as people opt for more business friendly amenities and comfort and less of other (more costly) amenities and features, so that model is being followed less and less.
C, sure developers have chosen to build their outlet plazas off interstates and typically just a bit past the metros for lower taxes and other cost advantages. I'm 99.9999% certain that's what will happen here when its all said and done. However, since Tulsa seems to be the last metro on the planet without outlet shops and since almost a zillion other areas have their outlets 20 miles or so out, why not upset the apple cart and do something a little different for a change instead of being last to follow a dying trend.
As a matter of fact full scale outlet shopping concepts are being developed downtown in several cities from tourist destinations like New Orleans and Las Vegas to non descript places like Laredo, TX (where the proposal has already been approved and green lit). If Bass Pro can be more successful in downtown/ Bricktown OKC and other downtowns than in Broken Arrow and other burbs, downtown America could be ready to embrace outlet shopping. It obviously would require a hard pitch and a lot of work by the city and local economic development agencies to convince developers of the opportunity since it is different from the conventional blueprint.
With all of the new hotels in the works, imagine some of the weekend packages, bus tours and the like that could be put together around outlet shopping combined with some other events downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.
I'd like some folks on the forum to talk about where outlet shops could be located in downtown.
Quote from: SXSW on December 05, 2013, 09:19:44 PM
Do I see trees on the roof? A rooftop bar would be pretty cool here, unless it's just a space for hotel guests.
Hampton Inn with a roof top bar? Doubt it. The only "bar" most all Hamptons have is the breakfast bar. Agree that would be a cool place for one, but haven't stayed at a Hampton that has a bar.
Perhaps there could be a first in which the Hampton could partner with a group to establish a roof top bar that could be managed locally. That would be awesome!
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 05, 2013, 10:17:27 PM
There is definitely a trend toward more limited service hotel properties. The full service properties are just too costly to operate these days as people opt for more business friendly amenities and comfort and less of other (more costly) amenities and features, so that model is being followed less and less.
C, sure developers have chosen to build their outlet plazas off interstates and typically just a bit past the metros for lower taxes and other cost advantages. I'm 99.9999% certain that's what will happen here when its all said and done. However, since Tulsa seems to be the last metro on the planet without outlet shops and since almost a zillion other areas have their outlets 20 miles or so out, why not upset the apple cart and do something a little different for a change instead of being last to follow a dying trend.
As a matter of fact full scale outlet shopping concepts are being developed downtown in several cities from tourist destinations like New Orleans and Las Vegas to non descript places like Laredo, TX (where the proposal has already been approved and green lit). If Bass Pro can be more successful in downtown/ Bricktown OKC and other downtowns than in Broken Arrow and other burbs, downtown America could be ready to embrace outlet shopping. It obviously would require a hard pitch and a lot of work by the city and local economic development agencies to convince developers of the opportunity since it is different from the conventional blueprint.
With all of the new hotels in the works, imagine some of the weekend packages, bus tours and the like that could be put together around outlet shopping combined with some other events downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.
I'd like some folks on the forum to talk about where outlet shops could be located in downtown.
I'm not the brightest christmas light on the string but the idea of outlet shops along our highways is brilliant. Brillant! You should start a new post and hopefully someone will realize this to fruitrition. Could the Cherokees do this North of downtown on the old Land Bank/OSU property?
Already discussions to put an Outlet mall along I-44 in East Tulsa.
Weird. Downtown is great but there is a reason for no QuickTrips or Walmarts there.
We already had two successful Outlet type malls that failed for nature or selfish folly. Stroud was a perfect location drawing groups from both OKC and Tulsa and would have accelerated passenger railroad between the two cities. Massive tornadoes left only a concrete pad and a stunned community. Strange it was never rebuilt considering its success.
Years earlier both OKC and Broken Arrow opened Outlet Malls of America locations. The one in OKC (between Moore and Norman iirc) dwindled in usage as it was overpowered by newer and better shopping. Not sure of its current usage.
The one along the BA expressway that was quite popular is now a church (the final pre-destined use of all retail in that community). Local business people objected to an out of town firm capitalizing on their territory and kept an exit from being installed so as to limit its access. They shunned any area development north of 51 and made it difficult to participate in local events for years till someone wised them up. The New England owners of OMA were equally dense as well having judged incorrectly that all the truck registrations in the area meant it was an unsophisticated farm community better suited for a farm implements retail location. They shut it down.
Quote from: AquaMan on December 06, 2013, 11:00:20 AM
Weird. Downtown is great but there is a reason for no QuickTrips or Walmarts there.
We already had two successful Outlet type malls that failed for nature or selfish folly. Stroud was a perfect location drawing groups from both OKC and Tulsa and would have accelerated passenger railroad between the two cities. Massive tornadoes left only a concrete pad and a stunned community. Strange it was never rebuilt considering its success.
Years earlier both OKC and Broken Arrow opened Outlet Malls of America locations. The one in OKC (between Moore and Norman iirc) dwindled in usage as it was overpowered by newer and better shopping. Not sure of its current usage.
The one along the BA expressway that was quite popular is now a church (the final pre-destined use of all retail in that community). Local business people objected to an out of town firm capitalizing on their territory and kept an exit from being installed so as to limit its access. They shunned any area development north of 51 and made it difficult to participate in local events for years till someone wised them up. The New England owners of OMA were equally dense as well having judged incorrectly that all the truck registrations in the area meant it was an unsophisticated farm community better suited for a farm implements retail location. They shut it down.
Tanger in Stroud wasn't all that successful in it's later years, that's why Stanley Tanger took the insurance money and ran as there were few requests from tenants to rebuild there. At one point, Tanger operated 43 outlet malls, they are down to 18 now. I would assume online retail has hurt them more than anything.
Quote
STROUD - Stroud's largest employer made it official Tuesday: The Tanger Factory Outlet Center destroyed by the May 3 tornado will not be rebuilt.
Store officials in Greensboro, N.C., blamed few tenant requests to reopen stores in the 200,000-square-foot center in reaching its decision.
The Tanger outlet mall in Stroud employed about 350 people. At the time of the tornado, 41 of the 53 stores were occupied.
Tanger released a one-page statement that said the company will work with the community to find alternate uses for the land.
The company received very few tenant requests to reopen stores, and therefore decided not to rebuild the center, the statement said.
"We have tremendous respect for our friends in Stroud and the state of Oklahoma for their courageous handling of this natural disaster and the support they have extended to us," said Stanley K. Tanger, chairman and chief executive officer of Tanger Factory Outlet Center Inc. "Regretfully, without substantial interest from our tenants in reopening their stores, we simply cannot rebuild the Stroud center.
"With the help of the local, city and state representatives, we feel confident an alternative use for this 50 acres, which we still own, will be pursued, and we look forward to continuing to be a part of the Stroud community."
City officials were disappointed but not surprised. A company representative called City Manager Earl Burson on Friday to let him know about the decision.
"City officials definitely want to work with them because that is a prime piece of real estate in the community," Burson said. "The infrastructure is already in place, and we definitely want to work with the Tangers on making something happen at that location."
http://newsok.com/stroud-mall-owner-makes-it-official-it-wont-rebuild/article/2662713
I believe the Outlet Mall of America BA location
is the church you mentioned.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 06, 2013, 11:37:02 AM
Tanger in Stroud wasn't all that successful in it's later years, that's why Stanley Tanger took the insurance money and ran as there were few requests from tenants to rebuild there. At one point, Tanger operated 43 outlet malls, they are down to 18 now. I would assume online retail has hurt them more than anything.
I believe the Outlet Mall of America BA location is the church you mentioned.
A lot of conjecture in your post. The reputation of Oklahoma and I-35, I-44 in particular as tornado alley could just as well have been their reason for not wanting to re-sign leases in a newer Tanger operation. Higher insurance, lost profits, low returns figured in. The internet was not the power then as it is today so I doubt that had much to do with it. The truth is there were better locations back then to move stores to than a slow growing state that preferred Walmart on one end and Kansas City/Dallas on the other end. Now of course, one wonders at the logic of locating on I-44 considering the weakness of bricks/mortar for that product category.
I appreciate the respect you pay me by responding to my posts even though we mostly see the world differently. I know you have much experience in this geographic area in retail and sales. You must know that local support for retail development is much like the phrase, "all politics is local". Had the state and local communities been able or wanted to jump in during the demise of those three outlet type malls to provide relief and support the story may have been different.
However, if I were a large taxpaying mall in OKC or Tulsa at the time I would not have lobbied for tax benefits, passenger rail or bailout money for a competitor like them. We let them walk away. Stroud was hung out to dry. Look at BA and see what development north of 51 has done to their once thriving centers to the south. Once they hit the river with development, they realized the north would be their (tax) friend and they hung those guys out to dry as neighborhood "fast stops".
Tanger was basically done by 1996, it was half vacant at that time, and if you were going there from Tulsa it was a pain in the donkey because you had to go through the midway gate, then the Stroud gate, then back through the Stroud gate and the midway gate to head back to Tulsa.
Tanger had two locations in AZ back in the 90's, one on the north side of Phoenix near a state and a federal prisons, the one to the south was near I-10 and I-8 near Casa Grande. By 1998 both were failing miserably and were sold, the one near Casa Grande was a ghost town until '06 or '07, and the one on I-17 north of Phoenix survived under different ownership and grew because they built Anthem.
Outlet Malls of America towards BA was done by 1992. It just never had the stores, and was never filled with stores.
I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts. In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall. The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival. Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers. So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown. However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past. I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping. Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls. There is just not much excitement inside these days.
Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown. Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.
Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site. No surprise there. No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown. Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 06, 2013, 12:30:21 PM
Tanger was basically done by 1996, it was half vacant at that time, and if you were going there from Tulsa it was a pain in the donkey because you had to go through the midway gate, then the Stroud gate, then back through the Stroud gate and the midway gate to head back to Tulsa.
Tanger had two locations in AZ back in the 90's, one on the north side of Phoenix near a state and a federal prisons, the one to the south was near I-10 and I-8 near Casa Grande. By 1998 both were failing miserably and were sold, the one near Casa Grande was a ghost town until '06 or '07, and the one on I-17 north of Phoenix survived under different ownership and grew because they built Anthem.
Outlet Malls of America towards BA was done by 1992. It just never had the stores, and was never filled with stores.
Thanks. Your proving my points. The difficulty Tanger faced was the same as OMA. No support from the state in exits on the turnpike, and no support from BA at all. Little to be gained by helping them survive at the expense of locals. They weren't increasing tax revenues, just moving them around. Nonetheless, I was in advertising sales during that time period (saw the market studies done for the BA location and just laughed. Consultants are the most overpaid people ever!). The newspaper didn't even bother sending us to call on them. They did little advertising anyway. Both malls had been quite successful but they couldn't keep up. You seem to be pointing at their failing years as evidence that they were not popular. Not true. OMA was at capacity when I called on them and Tanger had been quite popular but the wheel of retailing keeps turning and they didn't.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 06, 2013, 12:35:44 PM
I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts. In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall. The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival. Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers. So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown. However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past. I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping. Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls. There is just not much excitement inside these days.
Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown. Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.
Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site. No surprise there. No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown. Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.
I would like to see what that new concept of outlet shopping would look like. I am not much into shopping having successfully integrated online into my life and disdainful of large chains.
The reason i enjoy downtown retailing so much is that it is still mostly local. Dwelling Spaces is so fun to shop. I can't see an outlet store being accepted or supported in that venue. Same thing for QT and Walmart. That is why I mentioned them. Believe it or not, at one time folks wanted to see those type retailers downtown.
Quote from: AquaMan on December 06, 2013, 12:21:01 PM
A lot of conjecture in your post. The reputation of Oklahoma and I-35, I-44 in particular as tornado alley could just as well have been their reason for not wanting to re-sign leases in a newer Tanger operation. Higher insurance, lost profits, low returns figured in. The internet was not the power then as it is today so I doubt that had much to do with it. The truth is there were better locations back then to move stores to than a slow growing state that preferred Walmart on one end and Kansas City/Dallas on the other end. Now of course, one wonders at the logic of locating on I-44 considering the weakness of bricks/mortar for that product category.
I appreciate the respect you pay me by responding to my posts even though we mostly see the world differently. I know you have much experience in this geographic area in retail and sales. You must know that local support for retail development is much like the phrase, "all politics is local". Had the state and local communities been able or wanted to jump in during the demise of those three outlet type malls to provide relief and support the story may have been different.
However, if I were a large taxpaying mall in OKC or Tulsa at the time I would not have lobbied for tax benefits, passenger rail or bailout money for a competitor like them. We let them walk away. Stroud was hung out to dry. Look at BA and see what development north of 51 has done to their once thriving centers to the south. Once they hit the river with development, they realized the north would be their (tax) friend and they hung those guys out to dry as neighborhood "fast stops".
Agreed about the minimal influence the internet would have had on rebuilding in Stroud. I was referring to the internet helping the Tanger portfolio dwindle from a high of 43 malls to their current 18. Retailers will all carry business interruption insurance as well as contents insurance. If Tanger Stroud had been a really attractive profit center for retailers, they would have returned. The area has had a reputation for tornadoes forever. You know as well as I do the bottom line is all that matters to large retailers.
Personally, I'm really meh on the outlet mall concept. For one, I don't see really any price savings. Secondly, it's mostly cheap third world manufactured crap. Third, I enjoy shopping in chain stores as much as I relish the thought of getting a colonoscopy.
They were a great advertiser when I was at UT when they first opened and I think they were also a good one for NPC as well.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 06, 2013, 12:35:44 PM
Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.
I don't see any advantage for QT to have abandoned their present site to move downtown. What advantage
for QT do you perceive?
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 06, 2013, 12:35:44 PM
I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts. In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall. The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival. Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers. So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown. However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past. I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping. Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls. There is just not much excitement inside these days.
Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown. Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.
Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site. No surprise there. No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown. Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.
I get what you are saying. It doesn't even really have to be factory outlet stores for that matter. Something like Sharper Image or even a scaled down upscale department store like Saks
could be a draw.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 06, 2013, 12:35:44 PM
I'm not a big fan of outlet malls or any malls for that matter, both are fairly tired concepts. In most cities, even the larger ones seem to support only one class A type mall. The rest are very ho-hum with many struggling for survival. Yes, as has been posted, online retailing continues to be problematic for brick and mortar retailers. So I certainly would not like to see a mall of any type downtown. However, what I'm suggesting is changing the concept of outlet shopping from the model that is familiar and has apparently failed here in the past. I just believe that people are tired of the same thing they've experienced for the past 40 or so years and are ready to reclaim a life of enjoyment and leisure downtwon again, and that can and should include shopping. Folks, if you haven't noticed people look miserable shopping at the malls. There is just not much excitement inside these days.
Today's outlet stores if put in a nice steetsacpe open store setting along sidewalks could actually enhance the aesthetics of downtown. I know that I could acutally see myself visiting the outlets if and because they committed to and chose to locate downtown. Otherwise, I'll continue to pass them by as quickly as I do now when traveling.
Yes, I am aware the developers were scouting out in East Tulsa for a potential site. No surprise there. No kidding, who cares about QT or Walmart downtown. Although it would have been nice if QT had opted to move there HQ downtown instead of expanding at their current facility.
Not sure what you think is a major city, but in the Phoenix metro area there are roughly 20 malls of different types, and I'm not talking about intersection power centers (Nails, cellphone, payday loan) but major malls with major anchors. And I get making an outlet mall resemble a streetscape, http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6 (http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6) but this outlet mall and the one next to it take up approximately 3/4 of a square mile.
Greensburg, PA has a downtown that is vibrant and feels like the mall that should be. I'm a fan of KC's old mall as well. And Silverton, CO. They feel old country. Greensburg does an amazing Christmas thing with horse drawn sleighs, lots of lights. Having spent time in Europe maybe I am just wanting that.
Downtown Tulsa as a shopping destination: part outlet mall, part artist outlet.
That could go for so many small towns. Shawnee is my birthplace. City is dead. Mall along I40 sucks. I always imagined that if the downtown was offered to artist it could be a birthplace of something great. I imagine running some fiber optics in first so the artist can have a lively trade with the worlds and create interest with entrepreneurs. Living quarters would be on the second floor and on the street level would be working shops, craftsmen. And coffee shops, food, etc... Else: downtown Shawnee and many other small town main streets are poop.
Just what kind of shopping does everyone think of when talking about a downtown? Seriously. Does it necessarily include buying?
I remember enjoying going to downtown Philadelphia several times with my dad and uncle to the surplus electronic stores in the late 50s and mid 60s. (Dad was an amateur radio guy.) That was before the proliferation of places like Radio Shack. Radio Inc in Tulsa had some interesting displays inside. I bought my first brand new car at Chick Norton Buick downtown in 1981. I don't think car dealerships need to be downtown.
I am not much of a trinket buyer. I nearly detest shopping for clothes. I am not a coffee drinker and the coffee shop culture never really did appeal to me. Adult beverages are too expensive to go out drink often not to mention that I have to drive home. The experience is also mostly boring for me too. Most restaurant food is more expensive than I care to pay for except occasionally (a few times a year) and it's too salty too.
I like wandering through Steve's Wholesale (tools) and Wholesale Tool. In my younger days, a trip to the auto salvage yard was fun. I could still wander through the yard looking for things like a dash clock or AM-FM radio that was optional in my car that my car didn't have. (I eventually found them for my first two cars.) It's fun to look about at High Gravity.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 06, 2013, 02:16:24 PM
Just what kind of shopping does everyone think of when talking about a downtown?
Beer
Barbecue
Bicycles
Not necessarily in that order. Is there anything else?
Quote from: Conan71 on December 06, 2013, 02:55:14 PM
Beer
Barbecue
Bicycles
Not necessarily in that order. Is there anything else?
It's no secret that i like beer. I just don't like paying as much for it as the bars typically charge. I realize they are offering a lot more than my local liquor store but I am only willing to pay so much. $3.50 for a Miller Lite is not bad price for a beer served to you in a comfortable place owned and run by some in business to do that. It is, however, equivalent to $21.00 per 6-pack. I would be more inclined to buy a Chimay Tripel which carries the equivalent of $67.76 per 6-pack (although that is on draught). I need to ration my money to buy some of that $5.00 to $6.00/gal avgas. Even if there were a bar I could walk to, I wouldn't do that very often.
I guess it makes sense for the 3rd & Cheyenne corner to be developed so they can use 3rd & Denver for construction site trailers and laydown. I am curious though if there is actually a firm plan for the residential on the quarter block left on the Denver side. I'm hoping for sonething midrise like this newer residential building in our fellow Arkansas River city of Little Rock:
(http://rivermarkettower.temp1000.com/graphics/12571969460.jpg)
Whatever is built there will likely need its own parking since the offices and hotel will be using the existing garage at the base of the Cimarex Tower. So you'll probably have a couple floors of garage (since underground parking is generally cost prohibitive in Tulsa at $25-30,000/space) with the residential floors above. Retail space at the corner and along Denver with resident/garage entrance on 3rd. At one time the hotel and apartments were going to share a pool but I don't know if that is still the plan.
Quote from: MyDogHunts on December 06, 2013, 02:01:12 PM
Greensburg, PA has a downtown that is vibrant and feels like the mall that should be. I'm a fan of KC's old mall as well. And Silverton, CO. They feel old country. Greensburg does an amazing Christmas thing with horse drawn sleighs, lots of lights. Having spent time in Europe maybe I am just wanting that.
Downtown Tulsa as a shopping destination: part outlet mall, part artist outlet.
That could go for so many small towns. Shawnee is my birthplace. City is dead. Mall along I40 sucks. I always imagined that if the downtown was offered to artist it could be a birthplace of something great. I imagine running some fiber optics in first so the artist can have a lively trade with the worlds and create interest with entrepreneurs. Living quarters would be on the second floor and on the street level would be working shops, craftsmen. And coffee shops, food, etc... Else: downtown Shawnee and many other small town main streets are poop.
I like the idea of downtown being dominated by creativity and local flavour. Our old downtown would have appealed to many today. Clarke's Clothes, Renberg's, some high end women's dress shops whose names (Spiegel's?) I forget, Brown-Dunkin, Globe Clothiers, Woolworth's, Bishop's, The Incognito, Bill's T records, The Ramekin, Crown Drug, Skagg's, Froug's Department store, Saied's music, the Orpheum and Rialto theaters, to name a few. Notice what almost all had in common? They were locally owned and operated. That's what differentiates a downtown from the suburban areas where franchise foods and shopping have mostly one thing in common....conformity and universality.
If its just the suburban offerings located downtown I'm out.
Quote from: AquaMan on December 06, 2013, 04:27:18 PM
If its just the suburban offerings located downtown I'm out.
I agree with that concept. To get me downtown, you will need to offer something different than I can get in my local suburbia. The folks living downtown will need basic stuff though. A truly urban (no gas pumps?) QT might have a place downtown. Starting a new, locally owned department store might be tough but whatever goes in could replicate in form and function of days gone by.
Good post. QT should be reading it. They could provide electric terminals for the soon to arrive electric cars and CNG pumps for commercial vehicles. That gets PSO and ONG to help subsidize them.
Another good piece of advice? Get rid of those hideous, cold, blue Christmas decorations currently hanging off light poles and replace them with something that crosses the streets with Crimson and Cream. GET CREATIVE and use the amazing backdrops of the buildings to make it worthwhile for light tours!
Quote from: AquaMan on December 06, 2013, 05:13:57 PM
Good post. QT should be reading it. They could provide electric terminals for the soon to arrive electric cars and CNG pumps for commercial vehicles. That gets PSO and ONG to help subsidize them.
Actually, Mr Suburbia here was thinking more of something that Artist would be proud of. Up to the sidewalk, windows by the sidewalk, forget about cars, several stories with offices or something 2nd story and above.
There is no reason for downtown to emulate suburbia. We have plenty of it around here. It's my choice for living but downtown needs to be different to attract me to do anything there. Why should I drive 15 miles to downtown for the same stuff I can get within 5 miles? (Rhetorical question.)
Quote from: AquaMan on December 06, 2013, 05:13:57 PM
Good post. QT should be reading it. They could provide electric terminals for the soon to arrive electric cars and CNG pumps for commercial vehicles. That gets PSO and ONG to help subsidize them.
Another good piece of advice? Get rid of those hideous, cold, blue Christmas decorations currently hanging off light poles and replace them with something that crosses the streets with Crimson and Cream Orange & Black. GET CREATIVE and use the amazing backdrops of the buildings to make it worthwhile for light tours!
FIFY
Quote from: Conan71 on December 06, 2013, 05:55:27 PM
FIFY
Any chance you went to or are an OSU fan?
Didn't you say at least one of your kids is going to OU?
It's not so much what stores are downtown, but how they are placed downtown, aka pedestrian friendly. The rest will take care of itself. But over and above that basic concern one would then expect there to be some unique retail downtown, whether that be local or chain, some of which it would of course be nice to have destination type retail. I would love to see an H&M, and a Z Gallerie as some of the chain type stores. A movie theater would be great as well of course. When I was in London many of the "High Streets" or shopping streets had what we would call the same ol same ol chains, but interspersed along with them were the unique local stores and more unique urban fare, chain type stores. It was the whole mix in a pedestrian friendly setting that made the difference. Small local grocers and the bigger chains on the same street, small unique local restaurants, right across from a chain restaurant, etc. etc. The key again imho is having the "infrastructure" available. There are many areas of downtown where retail of any sort can't happen without extreme measures. Large chunks of parking garages with no ground floor space available. Buildings with no ready way to get ground floor retail in because there aren't adequate entrances/access (especially those abominations built in the 80s for some reason) and or that are surrounded by other pedestrian unfriendly development. It's so odd that we don't zone for a "High Street" like they do in the UK or for a pedestrian friendly street like they do in other cities like Denver for instance. We just leave it up to chance and cross our fingers hoping we will get a future that will not screw us over lol. Developers don't like kind of uncertainty either. No wonder some people in the city so want a large developer to come in. They probably think that is the only way we can get a critical mass of something desirable downtown (only to be so often let down as the initial plans don't pan out as hoped then are left saying "well it's better than an empty parking lot"). Why are we so lame and gutless here these days when once we would have seen what the future could hold and gone above and beyond to create something truly wonderful.
I would say the main retail strip downtown is by your store along Boston in the Deco district. It has been pretty amazing to watch this happen the past couple years. Someday soon I think we'll see more of local retail district centered on Boston and Main between 3rd and 6th. A movie theater would do well in the Blue Dome.
One Place doesn't need lots of retail but its location next to the BOK Center could support a few restaurants amd a coffee shop. The hotel at 2nd & Cheyenne is supposed to have a bar. The Aloft nearby has a bar. The key is having a few places to linger within walking distance.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 06, 2013, 06:08:11 PM
Any chance you went to or are an OSU fan?
Didn't you say at least one of your kids is going to OU?
One daughter is an OU Alum and the other graduates from there next December. My parents were both OU grads. Somehow that gene skipped this generation. ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on December 07, 2013, 10:19:03 AM
One daughter is an OU Alum and the other graduates from there next December. My parents were both OU grads. Somehow that gene skipped this generation. ;D
So you are a
defective defector student.
;D
With the thought that whatever goes downtown, it should conform; what occured to me was a slimmed down version of WalMart. Right, makes you cringe. But a store structured like an old time Penny's or the SAKS that aesthetically fits in and offers visitors the feel of an earlier era. Similarly, why doesn't QT construct in the fashion of RT.66 along RT.66. Everyone aware of POPS in Arcadia? I think RT.66 is undersold here in Tulsa. And I am all for local ownership but who could pull-off a downtown department store? A WalMart Lite/Nostalgic.
Red Arrow, I'm sure that when QT built their current HQ that they did so with an eye towards expansion of the facility, if and when that need arose. So their brain trusts and bean counters made what probably looks like the best financially sound decision when they decided to expand at that locattion.
I guess it's probably a purely selfish notion on my part to want to envision the economic impact that 500 - 600 professional jobs could have on downtown. I'm sure that many of the employees currently at QT probably like their work location. But looking at the big picture, I'm certain that QT (like most companies) is seeking to attract that coveted younger professional talent that is eluding Tulsa for various reasons. This talent has stated time and again that they want amenities that are in shorter supply here such as a more vibrant urban lifestyle. Leaders in Tulsa and similar cities are well aware of this fact and should be doing more to rectify the situation. Working downtown in Tulsa's fast developing core would be appealing to this demographic.
But to answer your question, no there are no advantages for QT to move downtown at least short term.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 07, 2013, 05:00:31 PM
Working downtown in Tulsa's fast developing core would be appealing to this demographic.
I accept that the young folks want that. I don't happen to be part of that demographic. Maybe when I am too old to take care of this place I will change my mind. For now, I am still Mr. Suburbia. That does not mean that I am in any way against the revival of downtown.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 06, 2013, 01:40:06 PM
Not sure what you think is a major city, but in the Phoenix metro area there are roughly 20 malls of different types, and I'm not talking about intersection power centers (Nails, cellphone, payday loan) but major malls with major anchors. And I get making an outlet mall resemble a streetscape, http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6 (http://www.premiumoutlets.com/outlets/outlet.asp?id=6) but this outlet mall and the one next to it take up approximately 3/4 of a square mile.
D-back, the one in the link has 130 stores. Was there a 2nd one or where you referring to the entire center shown on the map? Looks like most of the area is endless parking. I believe the center proposed for Tulsa is 80 stores or so and probably won't contain some of the shops contained in this center such as Jimmy Cho and Burberry.
Phoenix is major city with its share of malls. However, Phoenix is unique since it is hotter than hell and indoor shopping is virtually a must. Even though Phoenix' growth far outpaces that of most U.S. cities. I would still venture to say that a lot of those malls are struggling because of continuing economic and demographics shifts that are occurring regardless of overall net growth. The mall(s) with Nordstrom (and Niemen's if one is in Phoenix) and perhaps one other upscale mall may be thriving but there are probably a bunch of dead or not so profitable malls among the rest.
To provide a better example of what I mean about the future of mall shopping, I use Tulsa so our locals can respond (but this would apply to many other cities as well; St. Louis, Cincinnati, Denver, Indy etc..). In the hey day of malls Tulsa probably had 4 suburban type malls in operation. Today there are only 2 open, 1 class A type and 1 for basic convenience. Woodland Hills the class A mall probably does considerably more $$ per sq ft than the Promenade with the old carpet. Not surprising about the latter, it makes me feel as though I've entered into a time warp. Just seems like Chess King and Merry-Go-Round or another of those 70's stores will pop up as I'm walking around. Who knows what the future holds for that mall, but it doesn't feel promising in terms of attracting a better mix of stores or a providing a more attractive shopping experience to go along with the theaters. Really glad Utica Sq is classy and timeless and not part of such trends.
I believe the proposed center for Tulsa would be somewhere in the 380K - 400K sq. ft range. For reference, some of the former major downtown department stores in U.S. cities contained 500K sq ft or more. Although that was vertical space within a block, 400K sq. ft within and around couple of small blocks might be doable in downtown Tulsa.
Just sensing that people really now want something different than what they've been fed for the last 40 - 50 years.
Quote from: TheArtist on December 06, 2013, 08:43:01 PM
It's not so much what stores are downtown, but how they are placed downtown, aka pedestrian friendly. The rest will take care of itself. But over and above that basic concern one would then expect there to be some unique retail downtown, whether that be local or chain, some of which it would of course be nice to have destination type retail. I would love to see an H&M, and a Z Gallerie as some of the chain type stores. A movie theater would be great as well of course. When I was in London many of the "High Streets" or shopping streets had what we would call the same ol same ol chains, but interspersed along with them were the unique local stores and more unique urban fare, chain type stores. It was the whole mix in a pedestrian friendly setting that made the difference. Small local grocers and the bigger chains on the same street, small unique local restaurants, right across from a chain restaurant, etc. etc. The key again imho is having the "infrastructure" available. There are many areas of downtown where retail of any sort can't happen without extreme measures. Large chunks of parking garages with no ground floor space available. Buildings with no ready way to get ground floor retail in because there aren't adequate entrances/access (especially those abominations built in the 80s for some reason) and or that are surrounded by other pedestrian unfriendly development. It's so odd that we don't zone for a "High Street" like they do in the UK or for a pedestrian friendly street like they do in other cities like Denver for instance. We just leave it up to chance and cross our fingers hoping we will get a future that will not screw us over lol. Developers don't like kind of uncertainty either. No wonder some people in the city so want a large developer to come in. They probably think that is the only way we can get a critical mass of something desirable downtown (only to be so often let down as the initial plans don't pan out as hoped then are left saying "well it's better than an empty parking lot"). Why are we so lame and gutless here these days when once we would have seen what the future could hold and gone above and beyond to create something truly wonderful.
I totally get what you are saying. It's really more about the placement of stores in a pedestrian friendly setting. The point that I'm trying to stress is that if the outlets typically found in outlying areas were to be configured in an urban streetscape downtown, a project of this magnitude could serve to attract the critical mass that could spark the opening of more specialty, local, and other unique retail that is also envisioned and necessary for a vibrant core. In this sense, these are complimentary concepts that would feed off one another. I don't per se think that outlets are necessarily good or bad, but to your point, they could be a crucible to providing something viable in a pedestrian centric model. Anything else that could provide the same in terms of attracting shoppers would be just as suitable IMO. My only other criteria would be to integrate this concept into the existing fabric of the area combined with "compatible" new build if needed. In other words I would not like to see this as an "urban island."
I also envision outlets downtown attracting some people who are not regulars to the area. Once they visit and can shop not only in outlets but perhaps at some specialty stores such as Urban Outfitters, TJ's, H&M and Z-Gallerie (as you've suggested), along with some of local flavored stores and restaurants, they will continue to return. I am also imagining attracting more bus tour, meeting and convention groups staying downtown in the growing number of hotel rooms to enjoy this experience.
Can you creatively envision nearly 400,000 sq. ft housing 80 or so outlets stores setting up within the IDL?
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 08, 2013, 06:46:44 PM
D-back, the one in the link has 130 stores. Was there a 2nd one or where you referring to the entire center shown on the map? Looks like most of the area is endless parking. I believe the center proposed for Tulsa is 80 stores or so and probably won't contain some of the shops contained in this center such as Jimmy Cho and Burberry.
Yes, immediately east of this one is another one of similar size.
QuotePhoenix is major city with its share of malls. However, Phoenix is unique since it is hotter than hell and indoor shopping is virtually a must. Even though Phoenix' growth far outpaces that of most U.S. cities. I would still venture to say that a lot of those malls are struggling because of continuing economic and demographics shifts that are occurring regardless of overall net growth. The mall(s) with Nordstrom (and Niemen's if one is in Phoenix) and perhaps one other upscale mall may be thriving but there are probably a bunch of dead or not so profitable malls among the rest.
No most are still active, there have been two or three that have closed, Metro Center is hanging on by a thread, Paradise Valley mall morphed by adding a Costco on the north end of the mall as part of the mall structure. The one that are gaining popularity are out door malls like West Gate, Desert Ridge, Tempe Market Place, San Tan Village, Deer Valley(smallest of these) Kierland Commons, Scottsdale Promenade, Pima Crossing and a couple of others near Frank Lloyd Wright and Loop 101. Most of these have national medium size to big box, Macy's, Nordstrom, Dillard's, Target, Best Buy, Victoria's Secret, BB&B, as well as regional and local. The Scottsdale Fashion Square has Nordstrom, Needless Markup, Tesla Showroom, and the other upper end stores.
http://www.fashionsquare.com/ (http://www.fashionsquare.com/)
QuoteTo provide a better example of what I mean about the future of mall shopping, I use Tulsa so our locals can respond (but this would apply to many other cities as well; St. Louis, Cincinnati, Denver, Indy etc..). In the hey day of malls Tulsa probably had 4 suburban type malls in operation. Today there are only 2 open, 1 class A type and 1 for basic convenience. Woodland Hills the class A mall probably does considerably more $$ per sq ft than the Promenade with the old carpet. Not surprising about the latter, it makes me feel as though I've entered into a time warp. Just seems like Chess King and Merry-Go-Round or another of those 70's stores will pop up as I'm walking around. Who knows what the future holds for that mall, but it doesn't feel promising in terms of attracting a better mix of stores or a providing a more attractive shopping experience to go along with the theaters. Really glad Utica Sq is classy and timeless and not part of such trends.
I believe the proposed center for Tulsa would be somewhere in the 380K - 400K sq. ft range. For reference, some of the former major downtown department stores in U.S. cities contained 500K sq ft or more. Although that was vertical space within a block, 400K sq. ft within and around couple of small blocks might be doable in downtown Tulsa.
Just sensing that people really now want something different than what they've been fed for the last 40 - 50 years.
Don't disagree with you on something new. The old style indoor malls are getting fewer. Out door shopping like Utica Square is the new trend.
http://www.shopdesertridge.com/ (http://www.shopdesertridge.com/)
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/ (http://www.tempemarketplace.com/)
http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/ (http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/)
http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/ (http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/)
http://www.shophvtc.com/ (http://www.shophvtc.com/)
http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/ (http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/)
http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg (http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 08, 2013, 10:08:03 PM
Yes, immediately east of this one is another one of similar size.
No most are still active, there have been two or three that have closed, Metro Center is hanging on by a thread, Paradise Valley mall morphed by adding a Costco on the north end of the mall as part of the mall structure. The one that are gaining popularity are out door malls like West Gate, Desert Ridge, Tempe Market Place, San Tan Village, Deer Valley(smallest of these) Kierland Commons, Scottsdale Promenade, Pima Crossing and a couple of others near Frank Lloyd Wright and Loop 101. Most of these have national medium size to big box, Macy's, Nordstrom, Dillard's, Target, Best Buy, Victoria's Secret, BB&B, as well as regional and local. The Scottsdale Fashion Square has Nordstrom, Needless Markup, Tesla Showroom, and the other upper end stores.
http://www.fashionsquare.com/ (http://www.fashionsquare.com/)
Don't disagree with you on something new. The old style indoor malls are getting fewer. Out door shopping like Utica Square is the new trend.
http://www.shopdesertridge.com/ (http://www.shopdesertridge.com/)
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/ (http://www.tempemarketplace.com/)
http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/ (http://www.shopsantanvillage.com/)
http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/ (http://www.kierlandcommons.com/map/)
http://www.shophvtc.com/ (http://www.shophvtc.com/)
http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/ (http://westgateaz.com/visitorinfo/contact/)
http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg (http://www.regencycenters.com/retail-space/az/scottsdale/pima-crossing#.UqVHAyrTmCg)
Yes, this outdoor shopping trend has been going on now since the late 90's - lifetyle centers. The more successful ones are the type set up like villages and have that high walkability factor.
Quote from: Rookie Okie on December 09, 2013, 01:01:41 PM
Yes, this outdoor shopping trend has been going on now since the late 90's - lifetyle centers. The more successful ones are the type set up like villages and have that high walkability factor.
I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy. I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me. Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools. Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.
Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather.
(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 09, 2013, 01:42:24 PM
I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy. I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me. Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools. Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.
Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather.
(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)
Only place by the mall that has anything useful to me is High Gravity.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 09, 2013, 01:42:24 PM
I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy. I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me. Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools. Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.
Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather.
(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)
Almost like saying, I will eat what fills my stomach and has the right quantities of required fiber and nourishment. Why concern ones self with irrelevant side issues like flavors or making eating a "social thing" with friends and stupid crap like that? I mean all the extra work it takes alone, makes it absurd.
The month I recently spent in London showed me how interesting, engaging, and even social (not sure thats the best word) the JOURNEY to... anywhere (to shop for instance) for anything can be. We are devoid of that age old experience here. I think there is something human about using our two legs to walk. Even if you don't speak to anyone, you still interact with them on the busses, the tube, the sidewalks and stairways, in a way that doesn't really exist here. We are so isolated here and are used to it. Don't even know we are missing something something, and perhaps try to fill an unknown void with other things. As if we were eating bulk, flavorless food all our lives, alone. Which perfectly, logically serves it's purpose, but then you get a taste of something full of flavor around a table full of friends and family for a while, and love it. Then you go back to those who were just like you before and try to describe what it's like and they don't care and don't get it. Sounds so unnecessary. We are so incredibly stripped of a whole aspect of human contact here, perhaps it's no wonder that we have some of the highest suicide and homicide rates in the developed world. We see people at work (increasingly many do not) we see people at the stores (though you can shop online) etc. but you don't interact with your society, your community, on the journey. Well, actually you do, but its a society seen through a car window on a road. There is a saying that the best streets are the ones where if your in a car on it, you feel as though your left out of whats going on and can't wait to get out of the car and enjoy whats around you. I can understand how people here don't "get it", because we simply don't "have it". You can't describe that wonderful "flavor" to someone who has never tasted flavor at all.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 09, 2013, 01:42:24 PM
I will go where the stores offer something I want to buy. I can only think of a few places at Woodland Hills that offer anything for me. Sears for Craftsman mechanics tools. Penny's, Dillards and occasionally Sears for Levis. The Apple store for mom's computer.
Indoor is nice in nasty or really hot weather.
(I may have already posted this but I couldn't find it.)
I'd get to Sears soon. Seems like they are on life support at the mall. Last 2 times that I was there, I don't remember seeing customers only workers milling about like zombies. Oh, and both times were on Saturdays. What is perplexing is that Sears has been closing a lot of stores over the last few years and this one has all the outward signs of an underperformer, so why it is still open is a mystery. They did open one of their appliance only concepts in Owasso's Smith Farms a few months ago, but I've not seen shoppers inside that store.
But Craftsman tools should be easy to shop for online.
Quote from: TheArtist on December 09, 2013, 05:23:18 PM
Almost like saying, I will eat what fills my stomach and has the right quantities of required fiber and nourishment. Why concern ones self with irrelevant side issues like flavors or making eating a "social thing" with friends and stupid crap like that? I mean all the extra work it takes alone, makes it absurd.
You and I live in different worlds. I'm sure I would not reach your level of happiness in a place you would love.
Perhaps I should expand on my earlier statement. Some folks here wouldn't go to Woodland Hills to save their life. The exact things they want may be there but they won't go. I don't particularly enjoy shopping at WH but I go there because it is (relatively) convenient. I cannot say I have never browsed at WH but for the most part my journey is to go in, get what I want and get out. It fills a need. It is also all I want from that journey. If there were a store downtown that had what I wanted, I would go there even in the daytime when I had to pay for parking. I actually did that in the late 80s to get an Epson LQ1000 printer. No one in suburbia had what I wanted and I wanted see one before I bought it. (Roughly $1000 back then.) I went where I needed to go to get what I wanted even though I didn't really want to go there. That's a bit different than your opening statement above. On a grander scale, I was in Munich Germany in 1995. I enjoyed the Deutsches Museum, the churches, the BMW place, the Englisher Garden (I walked most of the way through it from the south end, and back via the streets. Looking at Google Maps, I walked at least 10 miles that day.) and a few beers along the main pedestrian way. (Hofbrauhaus too full of loud tourists.) I also wanted to get something for my hosts back near Frankfurt. Looking at trinkets (as I classify them) was mostly frustrating. I didn't mind spending a few Marks (no Euros yet) so that was not the problem and I eventually found something. I just did not enjoy that part of the experience. I am just not a "shopper". Christmas and birthdays are difficult for me in that regard.
You and I have different views on the value of making eating a "social thing". With a few exceptions, it doesn't mean that much to me. I think it might be like asking you to hang around the private hangars at Jones/Riverside Airport. I would rather sit around the airport talking airplanes than go out to dinner, even with the same folks.
QuoteThe month I recently spent in London showed me how interesting, engaging, and even social (not sure thats the best word) the JOURNEY to... anywhere (to shop for instance) for anything can be. We are devoid of that age old experience here. I think there is something human about using our two legs to walk. Even if you don't speak to anyone, you still interact with them on the busses, the tube, the sidewalks and stairways, in a way that doesn't really exist here. We are so isolated here and are used to it. Don't even know we are missing something something, and perhaps try to fill an unknown void with other things. As if we were eating bulk, flavorless food all our lives, alone. Which perfectly, logically serves it's purpose, but then you get a taste of something full of flavor around a table full of friends and family for a while, and love it. Then you go back to those who were just like you before and try to describe what it's like and they don't care and don't get it. Sounds so unnecessary. We are so incredibly stripped of a whole aspect of human contact here, perhaps it's no wonder that we have some of the highest suicide and homicide rates in the developed world. We see people at work (increasingly many do not) we see people at the stores (though you can shop online) etc. but you don't interact with your society, your community, on the journey. Well, actually you do, but its a society seen through a car window on a road. There is a saying that the best streets are the ones where if your in a car on it, you feel as though your left out of whats going on and can't wait to get out of the car and enjoy whats around you. I can understand how people here don't "get it", because we simply don't "have it". You can't describe that wonderful "flavor" to someone who has never tasted flavor at all.
I think you really don't understand why someone would not want to be in a crowd. That's fine. We're all different. There have been things I have done that were kind of fun but not enough that I want to keep doing them. I went to a Philly's baseball game with my Fire Department friends in the 60s. It was OK but I have no real desire to go see a baseball game. I went to several theatrical events on field trips in High School. OK, but no desire to go to any since. My hosts in Frankfurt took me to the Opera. OK, once is enough. I spent a fair amount of time in a favorite bar while in the Navy at VA Beach. I enjoyed it but if there had been something else to do I am sure I would have enjoyed that too. Living in the barracks and drinking beer in the break room was b.o.r.i.n.g, even when filled with others doing the same thing. I went to the Flea Market one weekend in Frankfurt (yes, Germany). It was OK but I didn't see anything I wanted to buy. One of my hosts was with me so language was not a barrier. I understand a little bit of German language, a bit more then.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 09, 2013, 02:07:52 PM
Only place by the mall that has anything useful to me is High Gravity.
I believe you live closer to the Sears at 21st & Yale and the other Penny's. I don't have to get on 71st when I go to High Gravity. I just drive up Memorial which isn't too bad north of 91st St. The first 2 miles are He11 though.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 09, 2013, 09:10:07 PM
I believe you live closer to the Sears at 21st & Yale and the other Penney's. I don't have to get on 71st when I go to High Gravity. I just drive up Memorial which isn't too bad north of 91st St. The first 2 miles are He11 though.
There's a Sears and Target within a mile of my house and Penny's is about 1.5 miles the other direction. There is the occasional tool run to Sears and once in a great while Mrs. C needs something at Penney's. I generally avoid the large chain stores, whenever possible but there's simply some things you can't buy from local merchants that they have. Midtown pretty well has everything 71st & Hell does, just with less traffic. ;D
The drive out to HG is easy, Sheridan to 71st and a left turn. I miss the rest of retail hell that way.
My wife and I have a tendency, even when we travel, to go in and out of as many local shops as we can and walk all over a downtown district when we have the time (small towns like Pagosa Springs or Taos). We never know what we might miss as an innovative gift idea, a craft MC might be able to employ herself, and simply meeting interesting and sometimes not-so-interesting people. It's one of the things I enjoy most about traveling.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 09, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
My wife and I have a tendency, even when we travel, to go in and out of as many local shops as we can and walk all over a downtown district when we have the time (small towns like Pagosa Springs or Taos). We never know what we might miss as an innovative gift idea, a craft MC might be able to employ herself, and simply meeting interesting and sometimes not-so-interesting people. It's one of the things I enjoy most about traveling.
The last place I went with the opportunity to do that kind of stuff was Maui HI. It was a company trip (rough duty but someone had to go. ;D) There were two of us. We went all over the island. Several of the towns had pockets of shops and, yes, I went in and looked around. Mostly I thought who would buy this stuff? or Nice but way too expensive. There was a sort of fast food shop in Paia with a nice seafood/pasta platter for $15ish in 2004 that I liked for dinner. http://goo.gl/maps/QfeaP Picnic table type seating, get your order at the counter. We usually ate dinner in places like that. Most of the "real" restaurants would have gone through our per diem too quickly. I did manage to buy a made in Hawaii Hawaiian shirt in Lahaina. There were some interesting museums there too. The shop a Kaupo was more like a museum of old typewriters and cameras than store but I did buy a tee shirt that they said was unavailable anywhere except there. http://goo.gl/maps/pNAaY (I don't remember the road being paved there.) One of the things I did that I enjoyed most was walking about 1/2 hour into Haleakala crater. The walk out (exact reverse trip uphill to 10,000 ft MSL) took about 1 hr. The sign at the entrance to the path said to allow twice the time out as going in. They were right. Where this is all going is that I enjoyed the museums, surfing lesson, trips around the outer edges of the islands much more than any time I spent shopping. I guess I was born without that gene.
From glancing through the comments regarding retail downtown, I feel like some of you may be missing one big element of retail. The female element. I don't know very many gentlemen who enjoy browsing too many shops. I hate Woodland Hills with the fury of hell, but if I need a dress for an occasion, there's a pretty good chance I'll go bouncing around from store to store at WH for a couple hours at least. I'm not sure men have that same issue (or motivation). Most shops in general are geared toward women. In many cutesy retail areas, there tend to be 90% female-oriented shops and 10% that men can stomach whilst they wait on their lady-friend to finally finish up.
I just happened to notice that you all were perhaps focusing in a little bit too much on your anecdotal male experiences with retail. ;)
(I didn't even know Sears had tools. But their clothes have been pretty horrific ever since I can remember.)
My opinion falls more in line with those in the thread thinking that you need a few unique anchor-type stores (H&M, Zara, Urban Outfitters, West Elm) and then pepper in much smaller shops for local stores.
You might note that we're almost all male posters around here. Kind of like watching congress debate women's health issues with all male commissions!
Thanks for your insight.
Quote from: TheAnsonia on December 10, 2013, 05:09:29 PM
From glancing through the comments regarding retail downtown, I feel like some of you may be missing one big element of retail. The female element. I don't know very many gentlemen who enjoy browsing too many shops. I hate Woodland Hills with the fury of hell, but if I need a dress for an occasion, there's a pretty good chance I'll go bouncing around from store to store at WH for a couple hours at least. I'm not sure men have that same issue (or motivation). Most shops in general are geared toward women. In many cutesy retail areas, there tend to be 90% female-oriented shops and 10% that men can stomach whilst they wait on their lady-friend to finally finish up.
I just happened to notice that you all were perhaps focusing in a little bit too much on your anecdotal male experiences with retail. ;)
(I didn't even know Sears had tools. But their clothes have been pretty horrific ever since I can remember.)
My opinion falls more in line with those in the thread thinking that you need a few unique anchor-type stores (H&M, Zara, Urban Outfitters, West Elm) and then pepper in much smaller shops for local stores.
I didn't want to sound sexist in my proposal for outlet and complimentary specialty local retail shopping downtown, but I thought it would go without saying that vast majority of it would be targeted to attract women shoppers. Women do the bulk of shopping without a doubt. Women shop with friends, spouses, families, and alone. Women also shop in male oriented stores at much higher rates than men do in stores for women.
When I was talking about bus tours and groups coming downtown to enjoy a day of shopping and fun, I was fully envisioning women in masses being the predominant consumers. In the big picture I could see a large highly diverse conglomeration of women, men, old, young, locals, and out of towners experiencing a vibrant downtown Tulsa.
Quote from: TheAnsonia on December 10, 2013, 05:09:29 PM
I just happened to notice that you all were perhaps focusing in a little bit too much on your anecdotal male experiences with retail. ;)
Glad to get a female perspective.
Quote(I didn't even know Sears had tools. But their clothes have been pretty horrific ever since I can remember.)
No problem with the tools. They also have appliances. Sears used to be good about having parts for their appliances (Dad was, and i am stubborn about fixing our own stuff.) but not so much any more so we go to Hahn's. The only clothes I buy there are Levi's. They sometimes have the non-destructed color I want in Style 569.
QuoteMy opinion falls more in line with those in the thread thinking that you need a few unique anchor-type stores (H&M, Zara, Urban Outfitters, West Elm) and then pepper in much smaller shops for local stores.
I am not familiar with any of those stores. Probably about like you and tools at Sears.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 09, 2013, 09:43:02 PM
There's a Sears and Target within a mile of my house and Penny's is about 1.5 miles the other direction. There is the occasional tool run to Sears and once in a great while Mrs. C needs something at Penney's. I generally avoid the large chain stores, whenever possible but there's simply some things you can't buy from local merchants that they have. Midtown pretty well has everything 71st & Hell does, just with less traffic. ;D
The drive out to HG is easy, Sheridan to 71st and a left turn. I miss the rest of retail hell that way.
My wife and I have a tendency, even when we travel, to go in and out of as many local shops as we can and walk all over a downtown district when we have the time (small towns like Pagosa Springs or Taos). We never know what we might miss as an innovative gift idea, a craft MC might be able to employ herself, and simply meeting interesting and sometimes not-so-interesting people. It's one of the things I enjoy most about traveling.
We need an HG type store in midtown or downtown. If I had spare time in my life I would branch out and open one.
Quote from: carltonplace on December 11, 2013, 09:20:25 AM
We need an HG type store in midtown or downtown. If I had spare time in my life I would branch out and open one.
They sell over the internet. You could have your stuff delivered and never have to venture to the 71st & Memorial area.
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/High-Gravity-s-Tulsa-Page-d53.htm
Quote from: carltonplace on December 11, 2013, 09:20:25 AM
We need an HG type store in midtown or downtown. If I had spare time in my life I would branch out and open one.
I agree. Mecca Coffee used to carry extract kits and rudimentary brewing equipment. Until High Gravity opened, I believe they were the only store in Tulsa that carried home brew equipment. I suspect the volume wasn't all that great or they'd still carry it. And again, if you look at everything HG carries, Mecca doesn't have near enough room to compete. I try and support local as much as possible, but I have to admit to ordering from Midwest or Northern Brewer on occasion simply because I don't feel like driving out to 71st & Memorial.
Quote from: Conan71 on December 11, 2013, 09:43:49 AM
I try and support local as much as possible, but I have to admit to ordering from Midwest or Northern Brewer on occasion simply because I don't feel like driving out to 71st & Memorial.
I would probably do the same if HG were in midtown or downtown.
I started brewing just as HG was getting started. The people at Mecca Coffee were nice enough but the brewing knowledge at HG is was the key to me getting started.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 11, 2013, 09:53:35 AM
I would probably do the same if HG were in midtown or downtown.
I started brewing just as HG was getting started. The people at Mecca Coffee were nice enough but the brewing knowledge at HG is was the key to me getting started.
It would be great if HG would open a store in Blue Dome, or nearby. It's forever down to HG from Owasso...
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 09:56:44 AM
It would be great if HG would open a store in Blue Dome, or nearby.
You could ask Dave or Desiree about it.
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 09:56:44 AM
It's forever down to HG from Owasso...
Get off 169 at 61st (or maybe even 81st) and go west to Memorial. It's a little less congested.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 11, 2013, 10:04:53 AM
Get off 169 at 61st (or maybe even 81st) and go west to Memorial. It's a little less congested.
I tried both routes. Kind of like the 81st one better. But it's still 20 miles from my house.
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 10:13:01 AM
I tried both routes. Kind of like the 81st one better. But it's still 20 miles from my house.
Dude.
You
live
in
Owasso
Quote from: bacjz00 on December 11, 2013, 10:38:49 AM
Dude.
You
live
in
Owasso
Yeah, It's great up here, but the logistics make it difficult sometimes. Which is why I'm such a huge advocate for Blue Dome, Guthrie Green, Brady, downtown, etc. In fact, I'm going to the Vanguard tonight and tomorrow night for some live music. Probably eat downtown also both nights. I can get to any of those areas in about 15-18 minutes. No way I'd go to South Tulsa for similar events, especially during the week. What's happened in downtown is a huge benefit not just for Tulsans, but for everybody on the North Side.
I was thinking that the best parallel to a HG downtown would be Fleet Feet Blue Dome location. Similar circumstance of a South side store opening a branch up North. I think I went into the 61st & Yale store maybe once, but I've shopped at the Blue Dome location quite a few times, and taken a couple of classes there as well. I think there would be a market for a smaller satellite HG store up in the area as well.
Also, just curious, there are quite a few Southies on this forum. What is your drive time to downtown and where are your coming from (approximately)? Not distance, but drive time.
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Also, just curious, there are quite a few Southies on this forum. What is your drive time to downtown and where are your coming from (approximately)? Not distance, but drive time.
111th and Yale. Can range between 20 to 45 minutes. School traffic is impressive in the area. Riverside is under construction at 44 and 75 has the bridge. Creek to BA is a no go.
The good news is, after the $30 million is spent on Yale between 81st and 91st, my drive time will only be somewhere between 20 to 45 minutes...
Quote from: Townsend on December 11, 2013, 12:39:31 PM
The good news is, after the $30 million is spent on Yale between 81st and 91st, my drive time will only be somewhere between 20 to 45 minutes...
Probably more as traffic grows with the improved road. (See Memorial Drive as an example.)
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Also, just curious, there are quite a few Southies on this forum. What is your drive time to downtown and where are your coming from (approximately)? Not distance, but drive time.
(Just a bit SE of) 111th & S Memorial, approx. 17 mi. Time is about like Townsend's, 20 to 45 min. 169 & Memorial to BA to downtown is the only sensible way for me. The wrong time of day it can take 15 minutes just to get to 169 (at about 96th St), including weekends. http://goo.gl/maps/0E5Po I'll go downtown for something special but don't anticipate going there on a regular basis.
Up Memorial to HG incurs the same stretch of
Hell Memorial. After 96th, it's only another 1-1/2 miles and traffic is usually OK except for pokie okies north of 91st.
I have found it easier to get downtown from Owasso then from most of south Tulsa and Broken Arrow except for areas close to the BA Expressway. Southwest Tulsa and Jenks is probably the easiest because of the straight shot up 75. Owasso, SW Tulsa and Jenks/Glenpool is also where the bulk of new suburban growth is located. Eventually we may see rail links on existing track from downtown to BA and Jenks, and possibly even Owasso with a stop at the airport.
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Also, just curious, there are quite a few Southies on this forum. What is your drive time to downtown and where are your coming from (approximately)? Not distance, but drive time.
I live behind the Farm Shopping Center and work at 3rd and Boulder (nine miles).
I can get to work in between 14 minutes and 30 minutes based on the time of day. I can get home in between 12 minutes and 35 minutes based on the time of day.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 11, 2013, 02:04:55 PM
I live behind the Farm Shopping Center
Still rooming in one of the dumpsters in the back alley??? Beg her to take you back.
http://dumpsterproject.org/the-dumpster/
Quote from: rebound on December 11, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Also, just curious, there are quite a few Southies on this forum. What is your drive time to downtown and where are your coming from (approximately)? Not distance, but drive time.
I live in Jenks, 121st and Elm (Peoria).
a little under 15 minutes to downtown with no traffic. No longer than 20 with traffic.
Actually timed it to the IDL ballroom (next to Enzo) last night. 8 minutes from 91st and Yale at about 6pm. Nav system estimated 9 minutes.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 11, 2013, 03:42:52 PM
Actually timed it to the IDL ballroom (next to Enzo) last night. 8 minutes from 91st and Yale at about 6pm. Nav system estimated 9 minutes.
I don't believe you can drive 13 miles on that route in 8 minutes at that time of day. That would be averaging 97.5 miles per hour through rush hour.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 11, 2013, 03:48:34 PM
I don't believe you can drive 13 miles on that route in 8 minutes at that time of day. That would be averaging 97.5 miles per hour through rush hour.
Turnpike to 169 then 51, then 75, then 7th street exit. Don't know but that's what it said. Seems like it should take longer.
Quote from: Gaspar on December 11, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
Turnpike to 169 then 51, then 75, then 7th street exit. Don't know but that's what it said. Seems like it should take longer.
The wife says I'm full of it! Took 18 minutes. :D
Quote from: Gaspar on December 11, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
Turnpike to 169 then 51, then 75, then 7th street exit. Don't know but that's what it said. Seems like it should take longer.
That's closer to 18 miles. There's no way. (just saw your reply. Makes more sense.)
It is a good thing your wife is around to correct you.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 11, 2013, 03:58:38 PM
It is a good thing your wife is around to correct you.
Whether I need it or not!
Quote from: Gaspar on December 11, 2013, 03:53:11 PM
Turnpike to 169 then 51, then 75, then 7th street exit. Don't know but that's what it said. Seems like it should take longer.
Google maps says 23 min, not counting the time to get a ticket for trying to make it in 18. :D
http://goo.gl/maps/LKQ7b
High Gravity would be a great candidate for a pop up shop.
I'm sure they could get a nice bump in sales as popular as homemade beer & wine have become. Sprinkle in a fair amount of regular booze related items and it'd make a great pop up concept.
Quote from: rdj on December 11, 2013, 04:50:05 PM
High Gravity would be a great candidate for a pop up shop.
I'm sure they could get a nice bump in sales as popular as homemade beer & wine have become. Sprinkle in a fair amount of regular booze related items and it'd make a great pop up concept.
Not sure what the licensing requirements are for that? They also sell craft wine now, and may not be able to do that as a pop-up.
Then, don't sell craft wine in the pop-up.
Sorry to redirect the the thread but I'm wondering something. Kwgs has a news billet point the other day saying that four new hotels had been announced. I know the one place and the second and Cheyenne projects, what are the other two? The one that has been talked about at archer and greenwood?
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Quote from: jacobi on December 15, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
Sorry to redirect the the thread but I'm wondering something. Kwgs has a news billet point the other day saying that four new hotels had been announced. I know the one place and the second and Cheyenne projects, what are the other two? The one that has been talked about at archer and greenwood?
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There's actually five. The Patel and Wilkins hotels by Oneok Field, the Noble Building conversion, the One Place Hotel and the Geodata conversion.
Wow, five makes it a real handful!
Construction is ramping up, and there is now a live webcam (http://oxblue.com/open/PremierSteel/Tulsa) to show progress.
There's also now a project page (https://tulsanow.org/wp/index.php/hampton-inn-suites/) with more renderings and project details.