I have no idea on what this property is worth, etc, but it just came up on my auction watch and I thought I'd pass it on.
North side of Archer, between Denver and Cheyenne:
60' x 100' unimproved lot, zoned IL. Legal description: The East 50 feet of Lot Four (4), Block Thirty Eight (38), Original Town of Tulsa, and the West Half (W/2) of vacated alley adjacent to the east thereof.
http://www.mredsauction.com/auction_detail.php?id=216985
Quote from: rebound on November 22, 2013, 01:41:16 PM
I have no idea on what this property is worth, etc, but it just came up on my auction watch and I thought I'd pass it on.
North side of Archer, between Denver and Cheyenne:
60' x 100' unimproved lot, zoned IL. Legal description: The East 50 feet of Lot Four (4), Block Thirty Eight (38), Original Town of Tulsa, and the West Half (W/2) of vacated alley adjacent to the east thereof.
http://www.mredsauction.com/auction_detail.php?id=216985
I hope somebody with a lot of money buys and it and does nothing but pay taxes on it for 20 years. Oh boy!
Not exactly prime real estate at the moment
wedged between bail bondsman, and Borden
$20
This property illustrates a problem with the Brady that has been coming for some time. As the district expands, it pushes closer towards the jail, the bail bondsmen, and the homeless shelter. The question of property values is going to be an interesting one. Either the growth will push farther west and drive the land values up such that the homeless shelters and Borden are priced out, or (more likely) the presence of those institutions will skew the shape of the district to come in a long term sense. Additionally, If any development happens to the west of where the district is now, I'd love to see the Brady Theater more celebrated than it is. It feels orphaned, other than the wonderful 209.
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Quote from: jacobi on December 27, 2013, 08:00:12 AM
This property illustrates a problem with the Brady that has been coming for some time. As the district expands, it pushes closer towards the jail, the bail bondsmen, and the homeless shelter. The question of property values is going to be an interesting one. Either the growth will push farther west and drive the land values up such that the homeless shelters and Borden are priced out, or (more likely) the presence of those institutions will skew the shape of the district to come in a long term sense. Additionally, If any development happens to the west of where the district is now, I'd love to see the Brady Theater more celebrated than it is. It feels orphaned, other than the wonderful 209.
Have Tulsa's homeless people caused a problem or gone on a murder spree in the Brady District I'm unaware of? I think as more people have been rediscovering downtown, they've realized that homeless≠dangerous. Hopefully, it's had a humanizing effect on the way people view the homeless. I think the growth will push west and Borden will eventually go, but the bail bondsmen won't be pushed out. Is there a legitimate reason an active, urban, downtown neighborhood can't coexist with bail bondsmen? Don't we urbanists promote a strong variety of purpose within each square block?
And everyone
does realize inmates held at the jail are on the
inside of the walls, right? Or have there been a lot of jail breaks I don't know about?
It's true the concentration of the jail, Tulsa Day Center for the Homeless, Salvation Army and John 3:16 taints that corner of downtown, but that same vacuous space occurs any time there's a large area with a sole purpose, service, focus or type of activity. Just look at the old Civic Center Plaza. 12 blocks of a vibrant neighborhood filled with apartments, restaurants, and corner stores were leveled for a behemoth convention center, court house, police department, city hall and library, all contained within a super-superblock. The concentration of government services sounded like a great idea at the time ("We'll create a one-stop shop!") but it killed the area around it.
The placement of the David L. Moss correctional facility wasn't a great decision, but the sprawling nature of the building is worse. It takes up a huge area in the northwest corner of the IDL, somewhere between 3.5 and 4 square blocks. The Day Center, Salvation Army and a vacant lot take up an additional 3 square blocks. A super-superblock of this magnitude serving just a few audiences would kill any neighborhood in any city, regardless of whether it was used for feeding the homeless or giving rich people a place to park their gas guzzling SUVs.
That said, I think the popularity of the Brady District, CBD, the arena "district" and the neighborhoods surrounding that part of downtown means development isn't going to stop at an invisible line somewhere between Mexicali and the jail. Borden will move out, the bondsmen will stay, and a whole new group of restaurants, apartments, bars, corner stores and hotels will move in.
Who knows, maybe someone will buy the lot and do something great with it. This is a great chance to buy property on the cheap in an area dominated by just 2-3 property owners.
Quote from: dsjeffries on December 27, 2013, 08:46:32 AM
Have Tulsa's homeless people caused a problem or gone on a murder spree in the Brady District I'm unaware of? I think as more people have been rediscovering downtown, they've realized that homeless≠dangerous. Hopefully, it's had a humanizing effect on the way people view the homeless. I think the growth will push west and Borden will eventually go, but the bail bondsmen won't be pushed out. Is there a legitimate reason an active, urban, downtown neighborhood can't coexist with bail bondsmen? Don't we urbanists promote a strong variety of purpose within each square block?
And everyone does realize inmates held at the jail are on the inside of the walls, right? Or have there been a lot of jail breaks I don't know about?
It's true the concentration of the jail, Tulsa Day Center for the Homeless, Salvation Army and John 3:16 taints that corner of downtown, but that same vacuous space occurs any time there's a large area with a sole purpose, service, focus or type of activity. Just look at the old Civic Center Plaza. 12 blocks of a vibrant neighborhood filled with apartments, restaurants, and corner stores were leveled for a behemoth convention center, court house, police department, city hall and library, all contained within a super-superblock. The concentration of government services sounded like a great idea at the time ("We'll create a one-stop shop!") but it killed the area around it.
The placement of the David L. Moss correctional facility wasn't a great decision, but the sprawling nature of the building is worse. It takes up a huge area in the northwest corner of the IDL, somewhere between 3.5 and 4 square blocks. The Day Center, Salvation Army and a vacant lot take up an additional 3 square blocks. A super-superblock of this magnitude serving just a few audiences would kill any neighborhood in any city, regardless of whether it was used for feeding the homeless or giving rich people a place to park their gas guzzling SUVs.
That said, I think the popularity of the Brady District, CBD, the arena "district" and the neighborhoods surrounding that part of downtown means development isn't going to stop at an invisible line somewhere between Mexicali and the jail. Borden will move out, the bondsmen will stay, and a whole new group of restaurants, apartments, bars, corner stores and hotels will move in.
Who knows, maybe someone will buy the lot and do something great with it. This is a great chance to buy property on the cheap in an area dominated by just 2-3 property owners.
When I lived in St. Louis, ALDI stores used to provide clean heavy duty canvas and plastic bags with huge ALDI logos to the jail and shelters. Several popular restaurants used to provide free shirts. Every time you drove downtown you saw a parade of homeless and the recently released walking around advertising for ALDI and other things. A smart marketer in Tulsa might do the same.
#FitchTheHomeless (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23fitchthehomeless)
The lot was purchased by the owner of the bail bond building. He's looking for someone to lease the space, if you're interested.
My point had nothing to say at all about homeless crime statistics, not about jail breaks. While I think that many developers would be wary of dropping large amounts on a development next to John 3:16, that is not the crux of what I was getting at. My question was strictly an economic one: will the rising prices in the Brady create a situation whereby the shelters move on elsewhere or will the chronically depressed value of properties over there keep the current tenants from moving.
I agree with everything you said, also. I HOPE that the Brady finally starts moving west. Borden will have to go. I would love to see the super-super block be demoed and devised for other mixed use projects. Te jail should be rebuilt such that it actually makes sense in an urban environment or it should be moved elsewhere.
Also, not only is the jail massively wasteful, it looks like my old middle school.
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I don't see any problem if the western end of the Brady District developments end at Cheyenne. There are still plenty of areas to develop to the east, into Greenwood, the Blue Dome and East End. I think the lot south of the Brady Theater where Borden currently has trucks would be a valuable spot, if nothing more than to provide a better view of the Brady Theater. And the lot north of the Hunt Club also. The blocks between Denver and Cheyenne can remain industrial and provide a barrier to the jail for those who seem to have a problem with it. I don't see development being all that desirable there anyway.
Quote from: jacobi on December 27, 2013, 12:33:48 PM
My point had nothing to say at all about homeless crime statistics, not about jail breaks. While I think that many developers would be wary of dropping large amounts on a development next to John 3:16, that is not the crux of what I was getting at. My question was strictly an economic one: will the rising prices in the Brady create a situation whereby the shelters move on elsewhere or will the chronically depressed value of properties over there keep the current tenants from moving.
I agree with everything you said, also. I HOPE that the Brady finally starts moving west. Borden will have to go. I would love to see the super-super block be demoed and devised for other mixed use projects. Te jail should be rebuilt such that it actually makes sense in an urban environment or it should be moved elsewhere.
Also, not only is the jail massively wasteful, it looks like my old middle school.
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I doubt the shelters and the jail would move as a simple matter of economics for them. A jail move would require a bond issue vote, and the jail needs to be near HQ for the PD and TCSO so I doubt there's anywhere else in the IDL area which would be practical for a jail move. IIRC, the jail land has room for future expansion. In other words the jail isn't going anywhere and as far as jails go, it's not that bad in appearance. Not that I'm a connoisseur of jails around the country.
Just curious, what do you mean by "the jail is massively wasteful"?
I mean wasteful in regards to space.
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Quote from: jacobi on December 27, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
I mean wasteful in regards to space.
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Unfortunately, we need a jail somewhere and that fit the bill in the 1990's when that plan went forward. At that time, it was the best improvement within the Brady in 50 years in terms of new construction.
Quote from: jacobi on December 27, 2013, 08:00:12 AM
This property illustrates a problem with the Brady that has been coming for some time. As the district expands, it pushes closer towards the jail, the bail bondsmen, and the homeless shelter. The question of property values is going to be an interesting one. Either the growth will push farther west and drive the land values up such that the homeless shelters and Borden are priced out, or (more likely) the presence of those institutions will skew the shape of the district to come in a long term sense. Additionally, If any development happens to the west of where the district is now, I'd love to see the Brady Theater more celebrated than it is. It feels orphaned, other than the wonderful 209.
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It'll move to the east. Anything past the theater is just awful.
Quote from: davideinstein on December 27, 2013, 03:23:39 PM
It'll move to the east. Anything past the theater is just awful.
True, but not out of character for a post-industrial area by a jail and homeless shelter, and something most American downtowns have one way or another. There is plenty to still fill in east of Boulder where most new development will be, and east of Boulder will be more industrial with a mix of smaller warehouse-type businesses forced out of other parts of the Brady.
My ultimate vision for the area is that a growing OSU campus spills over into the eastern and northern Brady, creating an urban research park for the university.