State of Michigan to take over Detroit tomorrow.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-state-of-michigan-will-take-control-of-detroit-tomorrow-2013-2
Is Chicago next?
I had read that this may take place. So when the State gets six Months in and says wholly crap this can't be fixed. What next? Sell it to Washington?
Sometimes it might be better to cut you're losses and send in Snake Plissken.
Quote from: DolfanBob on February 28, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
I had read that this may take place. So when the State gets six Months in and says wholly crap this can't be fixed. What next? Sell it to Washington?
Sometimes it might be better to cut you're losses and send in Snake Plissken.
(http://twitmails3.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/users/38630163/4/attachment/snake%20plissken.jpg)
Not a bad idea. If we were to turn it into a prison, we wouldn't have to relocate too many people.
. . .or they could sell it to Texas. Texas could use a Northern territory.
wonder how long before we see these guys as a start up?
(http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ocp.jpg)
:o
The governor already appointed an overseer for Benton Harbor. There are some obvious problems with it. First, the duly elected government of that town is no longer in charge. They can hold a city council meeting, call it to order, and immediately adjourn, but they cannot conduct any business. Only the governor's appointee has real authority.
Local democracy be damned.
Second, by taking over Detroit, governor Rick Snyder has asserted the state's power over a majority of the black voters in all of Michigan, effectively removing them from the political process.
Quote from: Ed W on February 28, 2013, 07:30:06 PM
The governor already appointed an overseer for Benton Harbor. There are some obvious problems with it. First, the duly elected government of that town is no longer in charge. They can hold a city council meeting, call it to order, and immediately adjourn, but they cannot conduct any business. Only the governor's appointee has real authority.
Local democracy be damned.
Second, by taking over Detroit, governor Rick Snyder has asserted the state's power over a majority of the black voters in all of Michigan, effectively removing them from the political process.
Did it occur to you that local democracy is to BLAME there? That racist swipe at the end is just desperate. Come on. And this, by the way, is the mentality of some in that town.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKb78kJhaMw
Quote from: guido911 on March 01, 2013, 12:51:53 AM
Did it occur to you that local democracy is to BLAME there? That racist swipe at the end is just desperate. Come on. And this, by the way, is the mentality of some in that town.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKb78kJhaMw
Cute, accusing some one of a racist comment, and then posting a worn out sound bite that is obviously racially slanted commentary from Flush Limpbaugh. ::)
Quote from: guido911 on March 01, 2013, 12:51:53 AM
Did it occur to you that local democracy is to BLAME there? That racist swipe at the end is just desperate. Come on. And this, by the way, is the mentality of some in that town.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKb78kJhaMw
A couple of quick points, and then I'm off to work:
First, I generally don't bother following your links, Guido. If you have a point to make, please make it yourself.
Second, you're right about local democracy being at fault for these city's problems. They should also be responsible for fixing them. Republicans usually argue in favor of local rule and allowing local people to decide on local issues.
There's probably more, but it's time to go
Quote from: Ed W on March 01, 2013, 06:00:40 AM
A couple of quick points, and then I'm off to work:
Second, you're right about local democracy being at fault for these city's problems. They should also be responsible for fixing them. Republicans usually argue in favor of local rule and allowing local people to decide on local issues.
There's probably more, but it's time to go
I actually agree with Ed here. The fact that the state is allowed to swoop in and prop up the city is problematic. They need to be allowed to fail, and fail miserably. The people elected a local government, and those they elected have been utterly irresponsible. The people elected many of these folks on the basis of the "transformational" promises they made durring their campaigns.
Detroit's economy is currently dominated by Healthcare and government workforce, both of which pay little or no taxes. The people of Detroit continue to vote for an ever increasing range of services to be provided by an ever decreasing number of tax payers. This has a snowball effect and produces a diminishing and fragile community. Combine that with an infrastructure that has grown far beyond necessity, and a recession, and you have Detroit. They don't have a dynamic economy comprised of private industry nimble enough to adapt.
The only way to halt the decline in a city like this is to elect officials that will focus on private sector economic growth, and be willing to cut public programs. Unfortunately this is not what the voters wanted. If the state or federal government bails them out, essentially they are rewarded for failure, and such failure will likely continue.
If on the other hand they are allowed to become insolvent, the citizens of Detroit, and nation as a whole is provided with a very valuable lesson, and perhaps after a period of reflection, new leaders will emerge, and the voters will support the concepts of responsible government.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 01, 2013, 07:19:19 AM
If on the other hand they are allowed to become insolvent, the citizens of Detroit, and nation as a whole is provided with a very valuable lesson, and perhaps after a period of reflection, new leaders will emerge, and the voters will support the concepts of responsible government.
You might be surprised to know that I also agree with a lot of what you said there - would that it could be done...or would be done. As far as the last statement, though - the nation as a whole has been provided a very valuable lesson, and yet, we still have John Boener as Speaker. So, even with 30 years of reflection about where this country has headed, we are a larger, less desperate version of Detroit...deep in debt, poor getting poorer, middle class moving to the suburbs, rich leaving (renouncing their citizenship). And all through that 30 years, we have given lip service to what you say, and in reality, just "given away the store" to the 1% and above.
To paraphrase one sentence in particular - the people elected a federal government, and those they elected have been utterly irresponsible.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 01, 2013, 08:41:04 AM
You might be surprised to know that I also agree with a lot of what you said there - would that it could be done...or would be done. As far as the last statement, though - the nation as a whole has been provided a very valuable lesson, and yet, we still have John Boener as Speaker. So, even with 30 years of reflection about where this country has headed, we are a larger, less desperate version of Detroit...deep in debt, poor getting poorer, middle class moving to the suburbs, rich leaving (renouncing their citizenship). And all through that 30 years, we have given lip service to what you say, and in reality, just "given away the store" to the 1% and above.
To paraphrase one sentence in particular - the people elected a federal government, and those they elected have been utterly irresponsible.
Can't necessarily disagree except where you finger Boener. Not the best speaker, but the guy has passed 3 budgets. He's just done a $hitty job resisting increases in spending and dealing with a president who wants to wait until the last day of every crisis, then meet for 7 minutes for a photo-op and move on. Boener is first owned by the Tea Party, and then owned by the president. If you want to play the Obama board game, "BLAME", then you need to include both parties in congress and the administration, for choosing politics over duty. In fact, I don't see how you can give the president any kind of pass when repeatedly we see him choose to hit the campaign trail instead of sitting at the negotiation table. As the executive, he is supposed to lead from the front, not the back.
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 01, 2013, 01:39:09 AM
Cute, accusing some one of a racist comment, and then posting a worn out sound bite that is obviously racially slanted commentary from Flush Limpbaugh. ::)
You calling me racist? Just say it, otherwise back off. And I would think twice about throwing out the race card, because I sure as hell didn't think that about that in posting the video. Here's a better clip so as not to offend your "shoot the messenger" sensibilities.
Quote from: Gaspar on March 01, 2013, 07:19:19 AM
I actually agree with Ed here. The fact that the state is allowed to swoop in and prop up the city is problematic. They need to be allowed to fail, and fail miserably. The people elected a local government, and those they elected have been utterly irresponsible. The people elected many of these folks on the basis of the "transformational" promises they made durring their campaigns.
I could not disagree more. Detroit is not like a private corporation. There are real people that need police protection, fire protection, healthcare services, and very basic needs for life that will be lost if Detroit is allow to "fail miserably". What's more, the more it fails, the more it will cost the everyday tax payers throughout Michigan, or that kick in for Obama's stash, that will be left with the bill.
I guess I am throwing more fuel on the racist fire and to further offend our newest race baiter, but here is something from a few months ago.
I want people to be free, and that means free to choose their leaders. If the state is allowed to take over, then the state is basically saying "we have the power to overrule a local election. You can see where that argument logically leads.
Ultimately the lesson though won't be that people expected too much out of government and finally managed to milk the municipal government to death.
The lesson will be there simply were not enough wealthy people to give their fair share to support those who demanded too much out of government without putting any productivity back in. It's like the councilwoman or whomever the speaker said: "Our people supported him! We want our quid pro quo!"
There's a certain mentality that is all about what can be taken from "the man". Is it ever a consideration from these people what might be within their own power to help save their own city or make it more livable?
The people of Detroit will not be allowed to die of starvation while freezing in the dark. That is probably what it would take to get the majority of the voters to change things. It's a shame.
Quote from: Conan71 on March 01, 2013, 04:01:17 PM
Ultimately the lesson though won't be that people expected too much out of government and finally managed to milk the municipal government to death.
And how damned unfortunate is all of that. Here is a symptom of the problem.
QuoteNearly half, 47%, of Detroit property owners did not pay their property taxes for 2011, reports the Detroit News. On 77 blocks only one property owner paid his or her taxes. This is a good piece of enterprise journalism: the News examined 200,000 pages of property tax documents.
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/detroit/2013/02/24/47-detroit-property-owners-don-t-pay-their-taxes#ixzz2ML3QupSf
47%? Where have I heard that number before?
I'm sorry Gas, but the fact is their idea of democracy should not f over the rest of us. I am not talking about Detroit saving itself, from itself necessarily. But when they f up to the point where MY rights and money are at stake--like the council woman wanting Obama to give up the bacon--then tough smile on their election results.
In effect, Guido, are you saying that you respect the will of the voters unless they do something you don't like? It sure seems that way.
Quote from: Ed W on March 01, 2013, 08:03:37 PM
In effect, Guido, are you saying that you respect the will of the voters unless they do something you don't like? It sure seems that way.
Wow, there are leaps and there are LEAPS. But, I'll remember this post next time we have a debate on how us crazy Oklahomans want to restrict abortion rights or vote to ban Sharia law or make English the official language or any of the number of things that leads some in this forum to call us backwards or dumbassed.
As for Detroit, I would gladly punt on the idea of a city manager if it meant that NO money from the outside were used to bail it out. That way, Gas gets his point realized and the city implodes into bankruptcy. But the human cost (or the risk) of teaching that lesson is too much. If there is an alternative, I'm listening.
Quote from: guido911 on March 02, 2013, 01:46:09 PM
Wow, there are leaps and there are LEAPS. But, I'll remember this post next time we have a debate......
If there is an alternative, I'm listening.
It's hardly a leap, Guido. The lawfully elected governments of Detroit and Benton Harbor were replaced with an overseer appointed by the governor. Regardless of what we think of the actions of those governments, there's something fundamentally unAmerican about using the authority of the state to ride rough shod over the obvious voting preference of local people.
These cities are not alone when it comes to seeing a collapse of their financial underpinnings. We saw towns along the Monongehela River go through similar problems with the demise of the steel industry in the Pittsburgh area. The mills closed. People were out of work and other businesses folded like ripples spreading on a pond. People who have little money don't pay their property taxes when the alternative is to go hungry. Local government suffers from the dual loss of sales taxes and property taxes. It's a nasty downward spiral, exacerbated by the quick retreat of the monied class behind the locked gates of their walled communities.
I think we need an urban homesteading movement that provides financial incentives for residents and businesses, coupled with an aggressive campaign to bulldoze blighted buildings. Yes, the latter would transform large areas into moonscapes, but they're unproductive land already, and we don't want to have infrastructure that can be converted to gang turf - like Camden, New Jersey - where the tax implosion and reduction in police forces has lead to some areas simply being off limits to patrolling. It's like something out of Mad Max.
It's an idea. Feel free to pick it apart.
Quote from: Ed W on March 02, 2013, 02:22:10 PM
It's hardly a leap, Guido. The lawfully elected governments of Detroit and Benton Harbor were replaced with an overseer appointed by the governor. Regardless of what we think of the actions of those governments, there's something fundamentally unAmerican about using the authority of the state to ride rough shod over the obvious voting preference of local people.
This happens all the time when state/local voters want one thing, and the higher levels of govt. trump all over it. With that said, what do you propose be done with Detroit? Business as usual was the result of the last election--except a local official wants Obama to bail them out. That's OUR money, and with that comes the VERY American right of our having a say. And speaking of unAmerican, what can be more unAmerican than watching a city implode and its people suffer from the sidelines?
What I am bothered by is the potential slippery slope of this sort of thing in the future in lesser significant financial crises.
Quote from: guido911 on March 02, 2013, 01:46:09 PM
us crazy Oklahomans want to restrict abortion rights or vote to ban Sharia law or make English the official language or any of the number of things that leads some in this forum to call us backwards or dumbassed.
That's an inarguable account.
Looks like there's a fork in this, so...
(I couldn't resist)
If you think the iconic Renaissance Center doesn't light up Detroit's skyline as much as it used to, you're right.
General Motors Co. has been encouraging employees to douse their office lights at night to prevent bird deaths at its world headquarters. For its efforts, the Detroit automaker has been honored by the Michigan Audubon Society.
Detroit is in the middle of an important migratory bird flight path — at times, the winged wanderers are so dense they can be seen on radar — and birds often crash into lit buildings at night or circle them, mesmerized, until they fall to their deaths.
While the numbers are questioned by some, estimates of bird deaths from running into skyscrapers range from millions to half a billion annually.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130302/BIZ/303020332#ixzz2MgMZdepG
(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20130512&Category=METRO01&ArtNo=305130320&Ref=AR&MaxW=600&Border=0)
Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr says the city of Detroit's cash-flow crisis makes it "insolvent" and unable to borrow more money to mask over debts being made worse by skipping millions in payments for retiree pensions and health care.
After 45 days on the job, Orr's initial assessment of Detroit's perilous finances is laid bare in a 41-page report to be delivered today to state Treasurer Andy Dillon.
The report hints that city employees who were not hit by last year's wage reductions could face pay cuts in the near future and that Wall Street bondholders will be asked to take a haircut to relieve a city that shelled out $133 million in debt payments last year on a $1.23 billion budget.
Orr also says he will evaluate "options to reduce or eliminate certain health care costs for both active and retired employees" in light of a $5.7 billion unfunded health care benefit for 18,500 retired city workers and 10,000 active employees.
"No one should underestimate the severity of the financial crisis," he said Sunday in a statement.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130512/METRO01/305130320#ixzz2TCVnYVa9
Figured I thrown this in here since it is a Detroit issue.
This is just crazy.
Quote from: guido911 on July 22, 2014, 12:45:10 AM
Figured I thrown this in here since it is a Detroit issue.
This is just crazy.
Yes it is! They should just all move to the suburbs!!
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.
-- Anatole France
Quote from: guido911 on July 22, 2014, 12:45:10 AM
Figured I thrown this in here since it is a Detroit issue.
This is just crazy.
I saw this a week or so back. Seems to me having running water would be a high enough priority you'd pay your bill. I'm certain some of those simply could not afford to pay but quite a few chose not to pay. People need to realize government simply cannot stand under the weight of so much free-loading at every level.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 22, 2014, 09:44:19 AM
I saw this a week or so back. Seems to me having running water would be a high enough priority you'd pay your bill. I'm certain some of those simply could not afford to pay but quite a few chose not to pay. People need to realize government simply cannot stand under the weight of so much free-loading at every level.
"As the state grows, one's sense of selfaownership is destroyed, liberty is traded for security, the human spirit diminishes, and the citizenry increasingly thinks and behaves like dependent children." – Eric Englund
Didnt know about this thread,
would have put this here:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=20586.0