The TulsaNow board and special guests brainstormed, researched, and came up with this. It is far from perfect but perfection takes more than a few weeks.
https://tulsanow.org/wp/index.php/2012/08/double-vision/
Thoughts?
Reminder: Tonight's the first meeting
Monday, August 27, 5:30 - 7:30 p.m.
Tulsa Webster High School Auditorium
1919 West 40th St.
Quote from: Admin on August 27, 2012, 01:42:44 PM
The TulsaNow board and special guests brainstormed, researched, and came up with this. It is far from perfect but perfection takes more than a few weeks.
https://tulsanow.org/wp/index.php/2012/08/double-vision/
Thoughts?
OK, I want to see these things happen. How can we get them on a capitol improvments program that has a chance of passing?
A parking garage needs to be part of the Cathedral Park plan. We would be taking the parking lot from Holy Family and need them to NOT replace it with more tear downs and surface parking. A park surrounded mostly by surface lots is not a very nice park.
It is true that a garage for the churches is wasted during the week, but would not be if shared by TTC students. TCC has at least 3.5 square blocks of surface parking, take one square block of that and build a shared garage. Develop the rest of TTC's surface parking into housing, some of it student housing.
The POP Museum will have a built in parking garage, backing up to the track.
I disagree with you that City Hall and the PAC do not need a parking solution that is not the current surface lot. The solution needs to be in proximity, should be mixed use and should free up surface area for development.
Quote from: swake on August 27, 2012, 02:59:32 PM
A parking garage needs to be part of the Cathedral Park plan. We would be taking the parking lot from Holy Family and need them to NOT replace it with more tear downs and surface parking. A park surrounded mostly by surface lots is not a very nice park.
It is true that a garage for the churches is wasted during the week, but would not be if shared by TTC students. TCC has at least 3.5 square blocks of surface parking, take one square block of that and build a shared garage. Develop the rest of TTC's surface parking into housing, some of it student housing.
Agreed. a parking solution could accomodate the retail, TCC and the churches.
Quote from: swake on August 27, 2012, 02:59:32 PM
A parking garage needs to be part of the Cathedral Park plan. We would be taking the parking lot from Holy Family and need them to NOT replace it with more tear downs and surface parking. A park surrounded mostly by surface lots is not a very nice park.
It is true that a garage for the churches is wasted during the week, but would not be if shared by TTC students. TCC has at least 3.5 square blocks of surface parking, take one square block of that and build a shared garage. Develop the rest of TTC's surface parking into housing, some of it student housing.
In downtown Bartlesville, 66 Credit Union allows the church next door to park in there on the weekends. The church only has a tiny parking lot adjacent to the building, mostly for handicap spaces and drop offs. Sharing saves a lot of room.
Oh, the Children's museum is a great idea. It should be privately funded and operated. They are great. There's ample space in new development as they require very little square footage. A good concept to enhance the Brady District.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 27, 2012, 04:13:27 PM
Sorry, but I don't want local taxes to increase period. It's a big factor in determining our ability to land better jobs. And currently, our taxes are higher than communities that provide a higher standard of living for their citizens.
There is the problem we had in the 70's...John Thomas fought any and all taxes, rate hikes, and expenditures for the water department for the entire time he was in office. Just one of the reasons that Tulsa was leaking over half it's treated water by the time Patty Eaton was elected. Remember water rationing by 1981 - things were improving, but still not completely fixed.
All for want of a small water rate hike. You gotta pay if ya wanna play!
You want better water? Then your rates or taxes will go up to pay for the preferred, more expensive alternative. So, you gonna step up and advocate higher water rates so we keep chloramines out?
I tried to figure out which had what, but doesn't TTC have a huge fund that it is sitting on and having a hard time spending? Judging by the location they are building in Owasso and the renovations they have made to Lemley, I am guessing they are not having financial issues. A downtown Parking garage near this location should not be funded fully by a tax, this is something that should be taken care of by the school and happily.
Teatown, while I understand what you are saying, the sales tax is not an issue with whether or not you are going to land better jobs. Property taxes, yes. And I would beg to differ about the Apple store thought. While I am not an Apple homer, I really believe you could put one of those just about anywhere in tulsa and it would be successful.
I realize this is only a partial list, but do you know that every proposal listed is in the city of Tulsa? This is a county-wide sales tax, is it not? I'm not being deliberately crass, but what's in it for the rest of us who don't live in Tulsa? It really looks as if we're expected to ante up the money so that the city will have all the amenities. People in the suburbs don't like to be treated as mere donors toward the greater glory of Tulsa.
Quote from: Ed W on August 27, 2012, 05:12:09 PM
I realize this is only a partial list, but do you know that every proposal listed is in the city of Tulsa? This is a county-wide sales tax, is it not? I'm not being deliberately crass, but what's in it for the rest of us who don't live in Tulsa? It really looks as if we're expected to ante up the money so that the city will have all the amenities. People in the suburbs don't like to be treated as mere donors toward the greater glory of Tulsa.
Percentages are there for surrounding towns. Most of us live in Tulsa so we center on Tulsa wants and needs.
You should send your wants to your town and get your neighbors to take part as well.
Can you imagine what would happen if this were a National thought process. Yes, what wish list would be developed? Add Reagan to Mount Rushmore?
You do not go about driving the quality of living by coming up with wish lists.
Our Mayor needs to tell us what major issues need to be addressed in the next 15 years. What infrastructure needs and improvements have been identified and what might be our future problems. The way we react to our heads in the sand (the retention/detention ponds...the streets etc.) makes me wonder what process these guys have if any.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 27, 2012, 05:23:48 PM
Our Mayor needs to tell us what major issues need to be addressed
I don't think you want that. Go to some meetings.
Judging by the parking lot at Webster, the first meeting was very well attended.
TulsaNow put together a wish list for Tulsa. The opening paragraph was well written and explains this very well. Should the public support improvements, this is a list that summarizes what many of you have proposed in the past few years and they should be considered. Its hardly my list. I wanted a real railed trolley. At about $40 million a mile it didn't make the list. Go figure!
Should the voters decide this is a flawed process, these ideas may very well end up funded in another manner. For TulsaNow to not make a list of possible projects would indicate its been nothing but talk and relegates them to a comments section in a newspaper.
If they are weak, strengthen them. If there are missed opportunities, list them. I for one, am tired of Tulsa pouring champagne out of a beer bottle and complaining about the vintage.
edit: dang I'm tired. Does that even make sense? Beer, Champagne, city planning....
Quote from: Ed W on August 27, 2012, 05:12:09 PM
I realize this is only a partial list, but do you know that every proposal listed is in the city of Tulsa? This is a county-wide sales tax, is it not? I'm not being deliberately crass, but what's in it for the rest of us who don't live in Tulsa? It really looks as if we're expected to ante up the money so that the city will have all the amenities. People in the suburbs don't like to be treated as mere donors toward the greater glory of Tulsa.
Unlike Vision2025, it is not one big bucket. Each city has it's own pre-set amount with which they can spend on their city and this list is to address the city of Tulsa's bucket specifically. The County has their own priorities already and the surrounding areas have only enough to tackle a couple of small projects per city.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 27, 2012, 05:23:48 PM
Can you imagine what would happen if this were a National thought process. Yes, what wish list would be developed? Add Reagan to Mount Rushmore?
You do not go about driving the quality of living by coming up with wish lists.
Our Mayor needs to tell us what major issues need to be addressed in the next 15 years. What infrastructure needs and improvements have been identified and what might be our future problems. The way we react to our heads in the sand (the retention/detention ponds...the streets etc.) makes me wonder what process these guys have if any.
The Mayor has already released his list:
Gilcrease Expressway
Zoo
"The River" (non-specific)
Parks (also non-specific)
Tulsa already has a comprehensive plan and a capital improvement program list but there was no discussion between Mayor's office and city planning about Vision2/Planitulsa until TulsaNow brought it up.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 27, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
The Mayor has already released his list:
Gilcrease Expressway
Zoo
"The River" (non-specific)
Parks (also non-specific)
Tulsa already has a comprehensive plan and a capital improvement program list but there was no discussion between Mayor's office and city planning about Vision2/Planitulsa until TulsaNow brought it up.
I would not trust Dewey to spend $10 wisely
Quote from: swake on August 27, 2012, 08:45:22 PM
I would not trust Dewey to spend $10 wisely
I'm sure he could find a really good deal on a Keytar.
You should consider an all day pass for the circulator system.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 27, 2012, 08:15:17 PM
I wanted a real railed trolley. At about $40 million a mile it didn't make the list. Go figure!
That seems a lot higher than the cost/mile I have seen for other cities but my numbers may be a bit old.
I think that was based on OKC"s two mile, $80 million trolley line. I have yet to find time to research their project.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 28, 2012, 05:46:02 AM
I think that was based on OKC"s two mile, $80 million trolley line. I have yet to find time to research their project.
A short route will have that problem since the trolley maintenance and storage barn and the trolleys cost the same regardless of the length of the tracks. At least that is true up to the point where more trolleys and a bigger barn are needed.
I am tired of all the vision talk. What aboout the other senses? Are hearing, touching, smelling and tasting just not good enough?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on August 28, 2012, 07:23:37 AM
I am tired of all the vision talk. What aboout the other senses? Are hearing, touching, smelling and tasting just not good enough?
I think this initiative smells funny.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 27, 2012, 09:33:12 PM
I'm sure he could find a really good deal on a Keytar.
Based on his choice of a Maserati Quattroporte, I wouldn't even trust him to do that. The only choice that would have been worse is the Porsche Panamera...
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 27, 2012, 11:37:36 PM
That seems a lot higher than the cost/mile I have seen for other cities but my numbers may be a bit old.
Track itself cost Portland around $20 million a mile when construction pricing was higher. I think their all-in was closer to $40 million per mile on the first line, though. They got there the same way OKC did. Their further construction has been much cheaper since that was already paid for. I can easily think of at least 10 good miles of track, but I can't figure out how we're going to get $250-300 million to do it when we have so many other, pressing, needs.
The thing is that a well used trolley system would take some pressure off the budget in other places by getting cars off the roads, but it would take a lot more money than Tulsans are willing to spend on anything, much less some "hippie" trolley smile. Half the town nearly lost its smile over the BOk Center, after all, and that's a generally accepted use of municipal funds, even in this part of the country.
$129,000,000 is in the maps3 for the streetcar.
They're using it for the initial loop and maintenance, etc. Any funds left over will be used to expand the miles.
http://issuu.com/cityofokc/docs/maps3impplan/13 (http://issuu.com/cityofokc/docs/maps3impplan/13)
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 27, 2012, 09:33:12 PM
I'm sure he could find a really good deal on a Keytar.
He doesn't need a Keytar, he needs a cell phone that isn't so fire-prone.
Quote from: Townsend on August 28, 2012, 09:23:28 AM
$129,000,000 is in the maps3 for the streetcar.
They're using it for the initial loop and maintenance, etc. Any funds left over will be used to expand the miles.
http://issuu.com/cityofokc/docs/maps3impplan/13 (http://issuu.com/cityofokc/docs/maps3impplan/13)
That's a little misleading. The street cars themselves (4,000,000) and the rail amount to $23,000,000. The bulk of the cost is in land acquisition and construction. Both one time costs. The total cost includes maintenance buildings, 6-8 miles of track and engineering studies.
The real cost per mile to start up is about 16,000,000 per mile but the ongoing maintenance and operational costs are lower than other forms of mass transit. As we used to say in the day, "that's stud".
What land Aquisition would COT need for a rail system in downtown? Thinking of the streetcars that I've ridden in other cities, you board from the sidewalk or median (city property) and travel in the street (also city property).
Absurdity abounds...
Is the TC in the package? Hope not... http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120828_11_0_TheTul359151
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2012/20120828_p1Vision_Meet.jpg)
The mayor actually gives the appearance of being interested in what the citizens think....don't be fooled. Big number projects with no numbers.
It's all happening at the zoo....
Quote from: carltonplace on August 28, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
What land Aquisition would COT need for a rail system in downtown? Thinking of the streetcars that I've ridden in other cities, you board from the sidewalk or median (city property) and travel in the street (also city property).
If the land isn't already available, we'd need train shed. Not that it has to be put on prime real estate or anything. Seems like TDA or somebody ought to have some land somewhere nearby that would be usable for it.
Quote from: carltonplace on August 28, 2012, 10:48:23 AM
What land Aquisition would COT need for a rail system in downtown? Thinking of the streetcars that I've ridden in other cities, you board from the sidewalk or median (city property) and travel in the street (also city property).
The MAPS project may require purchasing some properties that we wouldn't have to. I was amazed that the construction costs were the major expense (these vary with the economy), with engineering studies at #2 and the cost of purchasing the rails, the land and the buildings way down the line.
I think it makes sense for them. It is serves as an attraction in itself and ties in with other elements of their plan rather than a substitute for other mass transit vehicles. We haven't moved as far along in our plans yet and it doesn't make much sense until we do. We can't be first in the state to do this but we can be next. Make note that they have had an operating shuttle system in the downtown for quite some time.
We can pave the way for rail with a good circulator downtown.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 28, 2012, 11:26:37 AM
We haven't moved as far along in our plans yet and it doesn't make much sense until we do. We can't be first in the state to do this but we can be next. Make note that they have had an operating shuttle system in the downtown for quite some time.
We already have the destinations, we just need the transit. ;)
OK...here's an idea. Pay our talented students to come back here and live once they graduate college. Pay them to settle back home and continue to supplement some of their income.
There. I'll try to come up with some other new and different ideas. But I won't be voting for this initiative unless someone convinces me otherwise.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 28, 2012, 08:51:04 PM
OK...here's an idea. Pay our talented students to come back here and live once they graduate college. Pay them to settle back home and continue to supplement some of their income.
There. I'll try to come up with some other new and different ideas. But I won't be voting for this initiative unless someone convinces me otherwise.
I want to say that the companies in the area do a very good job at recruiting local talent. I know the Government agencies recruit student interns to work and work around their schooling, and if they are pretty good at what they do, then tend to get converted to a full time position upon graduation. I know my previous employer went to great lengths to attend local career fairs held by OU, OSU, and TU. I also know that there are a good deal of other local companies who also recruit from schools for internships.
But judging by your comment, you say "Come Back", are you refering to those who attend out of state schools?
TW FB post:
QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY — Tulsa City Councilor Blake Ewing spoke out against the Vision2 package Tuesday, saying the proposal was taking advantage of the potential loss of aviation industry jobs to fund a wide range of unrelated projects without sufficient public discussion.
There's a story but I'm too cheap to be able to post that part.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 28, 2012, 08:51:04 PM
OK...here's an idea. Pay our talented students to come back here and live once they graduate college. Pay them to settle back home and continue to supplement some of their income.
There. I'll try to come up with some other new and different ideas. But I won't be voting for this initiative unless someone convinces me otherwise.
TTC, the money has to be used for capital improvements. It cannot be used in any other way.
TW article, "Councilor: Vision2 is poorly conceived"
QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY - Tulsa City Councilor Blake Ewing spoke out against the Vision2 package Tuesday, saying the proposal was taking advantage of the potential loss of aviation industry jobs to fund a wide range of unrelated projects without sufficient public discussion.
Ewing is the first Tulsa City Council member to speak out against the proposal, which goes before voters Nov. 6. The $748.8 million initiative would extend the 0.6 percent Vision 2025 sales tax rate through 2029. Separate proposals would direct money to economic development improvements on key industrial sites at Tulsa International Airport and a closing fund and to quality-of-life improvements selected by Tulsa County and each of its cities.
"I think Vision2 is poorly conceived," Ewing said. "I think we're being asked to take people's word on too many things."
Ewing expressed his position during the International Council of Shopping Centers IdeaExchange, held Tuesday in the Renaissance Oklahoma City Convention Center. During a seminar on new retail concepts, a panel moderator asked Ewing to give his position on Vision2.
Ewing said he believes that leaders have a genuine desire to improve the area but have not taken the time to ask what the residents want or to truly think about what the city should be.
"I feel the folks behind this are taking advantage of the possibility of Tulsa losing aerospace jobs, and are using that to include a lot of things that have nothing to do with airport jobs," he said.
Ewing said he's heard from constituents who have told him they feel the plan is too rushed, has too many unanswered questions and has left too little room for public discourse.
Of the proposed items in Vision2, Ewing said he agrees Tulsa International Airport has pressing needs that need to be addressed.
"I've toured the airport," he said. "I know that some of the pressing needs are critical."
However, he believes it is too soon to pass such a large package with so many different items.
"Because we're doing this right now instead of later on, we'll have a lot of bonding expense adding up."
As for the infrastructure of the entire city, Ewing said an extension of the Fix Our Streets program next year should bring in a significant amount of money and maintain the current level of street repair, and other items in Vision2 can be addressed as individual items.
Ewing said he isn't against Vision2 as a knee-jerk reaction against any tax, as he feels PlaniTulsa and the original Vision 2025 were capital improvements done the right way.
However, he said an extension of Vision2 will lead to other future tax increases.
"When you lock in a county to a tax until 2029, that means any other capital needs that arise between now and then will mean a tax increase," he said.
Ewing said he plans to continue to participate in town hall meetings on the subject and wants to ensure the desires of the voters are included.
"If the voters say they want this, I owe it to my constituents that our list of capital projects is as good as they could be," he said.
Mayor Dewey Bartlett said he disagreed with Ewing's assertion that the process has been rushed, noting that projects such as completing the Gilcrease Expressway and developing the Arkansas River have been discussed by community leaders and citizens for decades.
Bartlett told the Tulsa World that the city has drawn its ideas for projects from public formats such as the citizens survey, PlaniTulsa, City Hall In Your Neighborhood meetings, the shared goals of the City Council and mayor as well as this year's EnVision Summit.
"All these things involved thousands of people, a large number of public meetings as well as the collective judgment and wisdom of the elected officials that were elected by the entirety of our city," Bartlett said.
Don Walker, Vision2 co-chairman, said there has been a good deal of opportunity for public input into the plan.
"I know that a lot of municipalities not only have plans, but have made a number of public input opportunities as a part of the planning process. PlaniTulsa is one that comes to mind immediately. Vision2 provides a funding mechanism to make parts of those plans a reality," Walker said.
The city of Tulsa started a series of meetings Monday night to discuss how to best use $157.9 million in the quality-of-life money projected to the city, he said.
"Before the voters go to the polls to vote on Vision2, I believe there will be clarity on what will be voted on as a result of this process," Walker said.
"The timing of this is based on our immediate need as a community in the area of keeping and attracting jobs and I feel like it's the best opportunity to also make a commitment as a community to continue to invest in ourselves with quality of life project," he said.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=717&articleid=20120829_11_A1_CUTLIN402280
Quote from: carltonplace on August 29, 2012, 09:37:51 AM
TTC, the money has to be used for capital improvements. It cannot be used in any other way.
Oh. My bad...I guess the bribe fund is for cap improv? Kidding. I know the distinction. I'm trying to go back to square one on this. Back where we belong.
JNC....yes. Too many of our vibrant brain thrust leave, never to return except to bury Ma and Pa.
Way to BE, BE!
What's going on with Bartlett and the Gilcrease?
This money won't come close to completing the Gilcrease Expressway.
Quote from: Townsend on August 29, 2012, 10:40:43 AM
What's going on with Bartlett and the Gilcrease?
This money won't come close to completing the Gilcrease Expressway.
I think it's for remaining right of way acquisition. It will most likely be built by the Turnpike Authority.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 29, 2012, 10:59:19 AM
I think it's for remaining right of way acquisition. It will most likely be built by the Turnpike Authority.
And in their own sweet time too. We could buy up remaining rights of way with this and still not see it finished for a long time.
Quote from: Townsend on August 29, 2012, 10:40:43 AM
What's going on with Bartlett and the Gilcrease?
He probably feels like he needs a signature project of his own. After all,
two former mayors had the opportunity to bask in the glow of reflected glory from the BOk Center. All Bartlett's got is a fire-prone cell phone.
Interesting how they have pretty much hemmed and hawed, picked apart, and delayed the implementation of, the PlaniTulsa new Comprehensive Plan stuff, but are now touting it as "The people have spoken!" and worked long and hard on it, etc. so it's very important and we must listen to what they want. Now what part of what people are saying they want included in this new package, would actually further the new Comprehensive Plan any more than just implementing the plan?
QuoteInteresting how they have pretty much hemmed and hawed, picked apart, and delayed the implementation of, the PlaniTulsa new Comprehensive Plan stuff, but are now touting it as "The people have spoken!" and worked long and hard on it, etc. so it's very important and we must listen to what they want. Now what part of what people are saying they want included in this new package, would actually further the new Comprehensive Plan any more than just implementing the plan?
(standing up clapping!) Excellent observation! bravo....
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 29, 2012, 10:59:19 AM
I think it's for remaining right of way acquisition. It will most likely be built by the Turnpike Authority.
So we buy the land and get a pay road and don't even get the tolls. Who is this guy? an ex-OTA board member?
oh.. wait
Quote from: TheArtist on August 29, 2012, 08:43:29 PM
Interesting how they have pretty much hemmed and hawed, picked apart, and delayed the implementation of, the PlaniTulsa new Comprehensive Plan stuff, but are now touting it as "The people have spoken!" and worked long and hard on it, etc. so it's very important and we must listen to what they want. Now what part of what people are saying they want included in this new package, would actually further the new Comprehensive Plan any more than just implementing the plan?
You think he's read it?
He's trying to say that if you steal bits from things that were well planned, then your thing is well planned too.
Taking a few random things you've wanted for awhile and shoving them out the door without proper planning or prioritization is still rushing. I've wanted a 70's Cuda for years but if I picked one up tonight, that would be poor planning.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 29, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
You think he's read it?
He's trying to say that if you steal bits from things that were well planned, then your thing is well planned too.
Taking a few random things you've wanted for awhile and shoving them out the door without proper planning or prioritization is still rushing. I've wanted a 70's Cuda for years but if I picked one up tonight, that would be poor planning.
Not really. Just a good time to tell Logan and Natalie they will be paying their own way through college as you decided to "re-invest" their college fund in something you and Mrs. G could enjoy a whole lot more than writing checks to a college.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 29, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
I've wanted a 70's Cuda for years but if I picked one up tonight, that would be poor planning.
I really wanted a 70 Buick GSX. I even got to sit in a brand new one at a car show. I didn't have the $ and mom and dad wouldn't buy one for me. :(
I did get a 66 Skylark GS (401 Nailhead) in spring of 71.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 29, 2012, 09:50:53 PM
You think he's read it?
He's trying to say that if you steal bits from things that were well planned, then your thing is well planned too.
Taking a few random things you've wanted for awhile and shoving them out the door without proper planning or prioritization is still rushing. I've wanted a 70's Cuda for years but if I picked one up tonight, that would be poor planning.
And your wife would probably kill you!
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 29, 2012, 10:34:51 AM
JNC....yes. Too many of our vibrant brain thrust leave, never to return except to bury Ma and Pa.
If they leave or have left, they had no intent on staying. But you want to know a way to keep them here? Give them a thriving location for young professionals and enough businesses to keep them employed. People are going to do what they want to do. You cannot force them to stay, you can only give them something to think about. Tulsa is not a major city, regardless of how many Olympics we put in for. We have our niche and we have learned to exploit it. We have a thriving young professional community, a thriving arts community, and a Downtown area that is merging those two communities.
I have learned, if you are going to identify a problem you better be ready to give your solution to fix that problem, or else you are just part of the problem. So, all knowing Clown, what is your solution? If you aren't going to give one, you have become part of the problem.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 29, 2012, 10:30:07 PM
I really wanted a 70 Buick GSX. I even got to sit in a brand new one at a car show. I didn't have the $ and mom and dad wouldn't buy one for me. :(
I did get a 66 Skylark GS (401 Nailhead) in spring of 71.
I went with the 65 Buick Wildcat in late 1968. Smoooooottttttttthhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on August 30, 2012, 12:49:19 PM
I went with the 65 Buick Wildcat in late 1968. Smoooooottttttttthhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
I'm pretty sure the 65 'cat had the Superturbine 400. Our family 63 LeSabre was really smoooooth. Dynaflow. I hated that tranny but it was smooth.
- Campus Housing. Seed money or no-interest loans should be provided to local state-owned colleges (OSU, OU and Langston) to provide affordable on-campus or near-campus student housing to bolster enrollment and make it more affordable for potential students.
---- I am against anything that gives more money to the public universities. I'm still pissed that most of the lottery procedes go there despite it still being depicted that K-12 get the most money.
- Urban Redevelopment. Seed money should be provided for key urban areas around the city that need redevelopment. Suggested areas including the areas northwest of Downtown, particularly to the north, and the Crutchfield Corridor from Pine to I-244.
----- Provide specifics. Otherwise no.
- Downtown Housing. By far one of the best parts of Vision2025 was seed money to get developers to build housing in downtown Tulsa. Many dilapidated buildings have found new life thanks to this money and more funding should speed up this trend.
----- Provide specifics. Otherwise no.
- Riverside drive improvements to coincide with the GKFF "Gathering Place" plan. If there are any needed infrastructure work to accommodate this plan, or obvious ways in which the city can capitalize on this effort, it should be funded.
----- Provide specifics. Even with specifics any street funding in this would sway me towards a no.
- Two-way streets. Paint, signage and streetscaping could go a long way into making downtown more auto and pedestrian friendly.
----- OMG, NO! Stop changing the freaking downtown streets. Also, any street funding in this would sway me towards a no.
- Complete streets. Money to provide adequate sidewalks, crosswalks and bike paths, prioritized based on need.
----- Provide specifics. Even with specifics any street funding in this would sway me towards a no. More sidewalks is good though.
- Other Items:
- No street fundung.
Everything else good on surface.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=16944.msg249858#msg249858
Make it $200 million and put a parking garage near 21st and Riverside, 31st and Riverside and further south on Riverside. Not big glaring ones, but ones that eventually blend into the landscape and surrounding areas.
Tulsa could do a substantial amount for itself rather than keeping the Chamber a vibrant force. There is a time to enhance what you have already in place.
Arizona Cities Turn to GAC to Meet Treatment Challenges
http://www.waterworld.com/articles/print/volume-24/issue-11/editorial-feature/arizona-cities-turn-to-gac-to-meet-treatment-challenges.html
this conversion of our water system should be the number one priority for our quality of life....unless you think the Chamber and corporate welfare are even a low priority....
Quote from: Weatherdemon on August 30, 2012, 01:43:44 PM
- Campus Housing. Seed money or no-interest loans should be provided to local state-owned colleges (OSU, OU and Langston) to provide affordable on-campus or near-campus student housing to bolster enrollment and make it more affordable for potential students.
---- I am against anything that gives more money to the public universities. I'm still pissed that most of the lottery procedes go there despite it still being depicted that K-12 get the most money.
This is basically a loan, not a handout.
Quote from: Weatherdemon on August 30, 2012, 01:43:44 PM
- Downtown Housing. By far one of the best parts of Vision2025 was seed money to get developers to build housing in downtown Tulsa. Many dilapidated buildings have found new life thanks to this money and more funding should speed up this trend.
----- Provide specifics. Otherwise no.
This is an extension of the existing program which loans money to projects deemed worthy. As in the V2025 money for this, the projects do not exist yet and it's not a handout so you can't name specific projects.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 30, 2012, 07:16:26 PM
This is basically a loan, not a handout.
This is an extension of the existing program which loans money to projects deemed worthy. As in the V2025 money for this, the projects do not exist yet and it's not a handout so you can't name specific projects.
I don't like how "basically a loan" sounds.
On the other one, OK, Thanks.
When I said the other items looked good, I meant that very positively. It's a great list as it covers many different needs in many different areas.
Even with the stuff I don't like ;o)
Quote from: Weatherdemon on August 30, 2012, 07:52:42 PM
I don't like how "basically a loan" sounds.
On the other one, OK, Thanks.
When I said the other items looked good, I meant that very positively. It's a great list as it covers many different needs in many different areas.
Even with the stuff I don't like ;o)
Does anybody recall the loan structure and cumulative losses for the city of Tulsa on such things as Cherokee Industrial District, Great Planes, and many smaller ventures?
I still wonder what lurk's. No transparency...even with 2025.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 30, 2012, 09:57:32 PM
Does anybody recall the loan structure and cumulative losses for the city of Tulsa on such things as Cherokee Industrial District, Great Planes, and many smaller ventures?
I still wonder what lurk's. No transparency...even with 2025.
I thought the CID was a fractional sales tax to lure Whirlpool and bring in some better infrastructure which lured Bama, NORDAM/LORI, and others to the park. How was COT involved? If it was, seems foolish since creating jobs in that area would tend to benefit Collinsville, Skiatook, and Owasso more than Tulsa.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 31, 2012, 08:24:45 AM
I thought the CID was a fractional sales tax to lure Whirlpool and bring in some better infrastructure which lured Bama, NORDAM/LORI, and others to the park. How was COT involved? If it was, seems foolish since creating jobs in that area would tend to benefit Collinsville, Skiatook, and Owasso more than Tulsa.
Just a shot in the dark here, but Police academy, close proximity to Tulsa proper. I am not sure of the costs, but I am guessing there was some deal worked out for the massive amount of land where the academy sits. My mother was an employee of the IAC long before Whirlpool was there and if I remember correctly, there was quite a bit of stuff there before Whirlpool came to pass. Lori and Bama were there. I don't remember exactly when the academy was built or when MCI built their complex, which now has Verizon as a tennant. EDS built their complex some time around 2000.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on August 31, 2012, 09:23:57 AM
Just a shot in the dark here, but Police academy, close proximity to Tulsa proper. I am not sure of the costs, but I am guessing there was some deal worked out for the massive amount of land where the academy sits. My mother was an employee of the IAC long before Whirlpool was there and if I remember correctly, there was quite a bit of stuff there before Whirlpool came to pass. Lori and Bama were there. I don't remember exactly when the academy was built or when MCI built their complex, which now has Verizon as a tennant. EDS built their complex some time around 2000.
I worked for Telex Computer Products in the Cherokee Industrial Park in the late 80s. We were told it was put there, in part, to give North Tulsans better access to good paying jobs. It was a PITA for me since 169 was only done to 51st St South at the time. It took me 1/2 hr just to get to 169 from 111th and Memorial.
edit:
Just checked Google Maps, Telex built what became the MCI, now Verizon complex. I didn't get moved up there right away but I think it was built about 1986.
For some reason the TMCC digs the Gilcrease expressway too.
Chamber Priorities for 2013http://kwgs.com/post/chamber-priorities-2013 (http://kwgs.com/post/chamber-priorities-2013)
QuoteThe Tulsa Metro Chamber of Commerce drafts its list of priorities for the upcoming legislative session. Chamber President Mike Neal says one item is urging the state legislature to accept additional Medicaid dollars under the Affordable Care Act.
NEAL: "It was really felt that the state should do everything they could to not oppose receiving these additional Medicaid dollars. That would to a lot to help our state toward addressing it indigent health situation."
Neal says they want to see improvements in Educational funding as well. He says the Gilcrease Expressway extension also, again, made the list.
NEAL: "(We are) really looking at how we can ultimately get that full Gilcrease Expressway completed on the west side of our county and how we could do a partnership with the Oklahoma Department of Transportation and the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority."
The agenda will now be reviewed by other chambers and municipalities. It will eventually be presented to the legislature as the Chamber's One Voice Agenda.
From CoT FB post:
QuoteHave an idea for the next Vision package? Join us tonight, Aug. 31, 5:30 - 7:30 p.m., TCC Northeast Campus-Seminar Center, 3727 E. Apache St., ,If you are unable to join us, please share your idea through our online survey: www.cityoftulsa.org/Vision2
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 31, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
I worked for Telex Computer Products in the Cherokee Industrial Park in the late 80s. We were told it was put there, in part, to give North Tulsans better access to good paying jobs. It was a PITA for me since 169 was only done to 51st St South at the time. It took me 1/2 hr just to get to 169 from 111th and Memorial.
edit:
Just checked Google Maps, Telex built what became the MCI, now Verizon complex. I didn't get moved up there right away but I think it was built about 1986.
I believe you are right, I think the boilers were manufactured in '85 or '86 which is usually a pretty sure indicator of original construction assuming the original units are still in place.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 31, 2012, 10:11:31 AM
I believe you are right, I think the boilers were manufactured in '85 or '86 which is usually a pretty sure indicator of original construction assuming the original units are still in place.
Whirlpool didn't get out there until around 94-95 (I vaguely remember the Helicopters bring in the AC units for the roof). Which means this all took place prior to the Whirlpool stuff.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on August 31, 2012, 10:35:58 AM
Whirlpool didn't get out there until around 94-95 (I vaguely remember the Helicopters bring in the AC units for the roof). Which means this all took place prior to the Whirlpool stuff.
Sounds about right on the Whirlpool timeframe, JC.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 31, 2012, 08:24:45 AM
I thought the CID was a fractional sales tax to lure Whirlpool and bring in some better infrastructure which lured Bama, NORDAM/LORI, and others to the park. How was COT involved? If it was, seems foolish since creating jobs in that area would tend to benefit Collinsville, Skiatook, and Owasso more than Tulsa.
I think it was a bond backed by the city. I know it was socialistic because the private sector was the competitor. If a company came to town looking for a site they were showed CID because the City and Chamber had too much to loose. So, they did not even try to market other locations. If a potential user from out of town came in to survey and did not like CID they moved on to other cities.
The CID bonds became worthless. Many wealthy Tulsans supposedly took it on the chin. Were their financial sacrifices justified for the employment trade off?
Those business' you mention are organic Tulsa companies that would have found other deals within this city if CID did not even exist.
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 31, 2012, 02:27:47 PM
I think it was a bond backed by the city. I know it was socialistic because the private sector was the competitor. If a company came to town looking for a site they were showed CID because the City and Chamber had too much to loose. So, they did not even try to market other locations. If a potential user from out of town came in to survey and did not like CID they moved on to other cities.
The CID bonds became worthless. Many wealthy Tulsans supposedly took it on the chin. Were their financial sacrifices justified for the employment trade off?
Those business' you mention are organic Tulsa companies that would have found other deals within this city if CID did not even exist.
Thanks for the explanation. That had fallen off my radar scope long ago. Do you remember about what year they did that?
Again, seems for the location it would have been more a boon for the 'burbs up north (better example of a county initiative) unless the city mistakenly assumed it would help jump start the economic engine in north Tulsa which had been neglected for quite some time.
Quote from: Townsend on August 31, 2012, 09:43:04 AM
For some reason the TMCC digs the Gilcrease expressway too.
Of course they do. Think of all the land that will be increased in value due to it being easier to develop thanks to a nearby highway. They would prefer you forget about the costs of providing greater services to the area and maintaining any infrastructure we build, however. More sprawl is about the last thing we need in the long term, but it sure does make the numbers look good up front.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 31, 2012, 03:11:49 PM
unless the city mistakenly assumed it would help jump start the economic engine in north Tulsa which had been neglected for quite some time.
As I said earlier, that was given to us as one reason for the Cherokee Industrial Park. Telex most likely built up there for the money (tax? land cost?) advantage. I don't remember any significant influx of Northsiders as employees.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 31, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
I worked for Telex Computer Products in the Cherokee Industrial Park in the late 80s. We were told it was put there, in part, to give North Tulsans better access to good paying jobs. It was a PITA for me since 169 was only done to 51st St South at the time. It took me 1/2 hr just to get to 169 from 111th and Memorial.
edit:
Just checked Google Maps, Telex built what became the MCI, now Verizon complex. I didn't get moved up there right away but I think it was built about 1986.
It was built in 1986. Their 50th anniversary party was also the grand opening.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/46bd5572-60d1-dbb6.jpg)
Here are details on the $75M chamber treasure chest and the money for the airport:
http://yestovision2.com/Vision2_TIA_Industrial_Complex_Requirments_and_QA_8-9-12.pdf
Replacing outdated equipment? Upgrades to work on airplanes which my never come to Tulsa? Am I reading this wrong?
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 31, 2012, 08:11:04 PM
It was built in 1986. Their 50th anniversary party was also the grand opening.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/46bd5572-60d1-dbb6.jpg)
I don't remember getting one of those frisbees. I guess I wasn't part of the in crowd. :D
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 31, 2012, 09:08:55 PM
I don't remember getting one of those frisbees. I guess I wasn't part of the in crowd. :D
Surely you remember the robot though.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 31, 2012, 09:35:17 PM
Surely you remember the robot though.
Are you thinking of the mail delivery robot? Mostly what I remember of Cherokee was the inadequate lighting from 30 feet above, the Telex physical fitness program (coffee and the restrooms were a 10 minute walk from everywhere) and an hour each way commute. One of the female engineers asked me several times to walk her to her car since she was concerned for her safety.
Quote from: sgrizzle on August 31, 2012, 08:11:04 PM
It was built in 1986. Their 50th anniversary party was also the grand opening.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/46bd5572-60d1-dbb6.jpg)
As I remember, Telex was originally Midwestern Instruments. There was a little bit of them remaining when I started there in Dec 79. I think I remember some Oscillographs that were still in production. I also remember some real high speed paper wasters. They were line printers with some kind of chain on the characters. I never worked on them. I started as sustaining engineering on the 6250 series tape drives. NRZI, PE, and GCR up to 125 ips.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 31, 2012, 10:09:22 PM
As I remember, Telex was originally Midwestern Instruments. There was a little bit of them remaining when I started there in Dec 79. I think I remember some Oscillographs that were still in production. I also remember some real high speed paper wasters. They were line printers with some kind of chain on the characters. I never worked on them. I started as sustaining engineering on the 6250 series tape drives. NRZI, PE, and GCR up to 125 ips.
I have a couple of modules of magnetic core memory from Telex somewhere - will try to find it and put up a picture. These were 256 bit, IIRC, with little tiny ferrous "donuts" with wires threaded through them in a small grid pattern. A magnetic field applied caused the field to orient one way or the other, eventually being amplified/conditioned to give a 1 or 0 logic level. Cool!
Remember all the cocaine shipments in the monitors coming out of 41st and Sheridan? Knew a guy who worked there through that and somehow managed to stay clear of all the 'stuff' going on around at that place. There must have been a better margin on cocaine than IBM disk drive clones...
NICE JOB SGRIZZLE!
I just listened to your interview on NPR with Rich Fisher and found your presentation excellent.
Quote from: carltonplace on September 06, 2012, 12:01:56 PM
NICE JOB SGRIZZLE!
I just listened to your interview on NPR with Rich Fisher and found your presentation excellent.
My only regret is that I never thought to use the phrase "Vision2: Electric Boogaloo"
Quote from: sgrizzle on September 06, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
My only regret is that I never thought to use the phrase "Vision2: Electric Boogaloo"
(http://noffload.net/uploader/files/1/breakin/breakin%20mar%20(11).jpg)