Tulsa world in order to pursue their crusade of the freedom of information is pointing out in its addition of Monday how the cities are circumventing the intent and purpose of the statue. The purpose of the act was to make governments of the people visible but instead it has become more in-visible. Although the fee is established by the act the consensus of the ghostly person that is to provide access to the information is very hard to find and when found the illegal charges are referred to as "this is the way we have always made these charges".
The city of Tulsa on the request for information charges $80.00 setup fee because some records requested are kept by a private semi-division of the city. Mayes county charges $1.00 per sheet "because that is the way we have always done it".
The lawmakers did provide, in order to make the standing bureaucracies open their records at an affordable cost of 25 cents a sheet to the public only to be stymied by "that's not the way we have always done it"
Should we appeal the act and let the perpetual bureaucracies meet behind closed doors to make all the decisions for the citizens?
Should we educate these public servants on what their duties are?
I don't use records. I prefer to download my music direct to my computer.
You'd think he'd be afraid to get the pink gas residue on him if he did an FOI request....
Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 30, 2012, 06:13:19 PM
I don't use records. I prefer to download my music direct to my computer.
I still have a few records, and a turntable. Mostly I have CDs.
Quote from: Red Arrow on July 30, 2012, 07:50:17 PM
I still have a few records, and a turntable. Mostly I have CDs.
Took most of my CDs and put them on the iPod. I still have a TON of LPs but turntable took a crap on me.
SKIATOOK - The Skiatook Police Department has been charging far more than state law allows per page to fulfill public records requests and, in some cases, levying a search fee specifically banned by law, a Tulsa World investigation has found.
Whole story: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120730_11_A1_CUTLIN341959
Last week, Skiatook city attorney Joel Barnaby said the illegal charges would stop. Barnaby said he advised Police Chief John Lawrence to abide by a 2007 city resolution that, according to Barnaby, aligns fees with the state Open Records Act.
"So basically they concede that they've been overcharging the public for years," said Joey Senat, an associate professor of journalism specializing in media law at the OSU School of Media and Strategic Communications.
In a phone conversation with the World, Skiatook Police Department records clerk Mary Holycross said records cost $4 for the first five pages and 25 cents for each extra page. The department's records request form, however, cites costs of $4 for "the initial report" and 25 cents for "each supplemental page."
The state Open Records Act allows copying fees of no more than 25 cents per page, except in county offices that have set higher fees under state law.
In addition to charging copying fees that do not comply with the law, the police department's records form also states the department charges a search fee, which is not allowed by law in most cases.
"In no case shall a search fee be charged when the release of records is in the public interest, including, but not limited to, release to the news media, scholars, authors and taxpayers seeking to determine whether those entrusted with the affairs of the government are honestly, faithfully, and competently performing their duties as public servants," the law states.
In its definition of what a record is, the Open Records Act includes "data files created by or used with computer software, computer tape, disk, record." It does not set up separate fees for electronic records.
The law also states that "a public body may charge a fee only for recovery of the reasonable, direct costs of record copying, or mechanical reproduction."
Barnaby said that "computer generated reports" means "magnetic tape and contents for computer reports."
"Like back in the days when they kept computer files on magnetic tape wheels," he said.
Shirley Lett, Skiatook's clerk and treasurer, said excessive disruption is "just if it's disrupting your day and you have to take time out of whatever you're working on to get these records."
"It's absolutely outrageous to say that any time a records person stops to provide records that that would be an excessive disruption," Senat said.
The Act requires public bodies to establish records custodians who are available to fulfill requests.
Here are key portions of the Oklahoma Open Records Act outlining copying and other fees that public bodies may charge for records:
"Notwithstanding any state or local provision to the contrary, in no instance shall the record copying fee exceed twenty-five cents ($0.25) per page for records having the dimensions of eight and one-half (8 1/2) by fourteen (14) inches or smaller, or a maximum of One Dollar ($1.00) per copied page for a certified copy. However, if the request is solely for commercial purpose, or would clearly cause excessive disruption of the essential functions of the public body, then the public body may charge a reasonable fee to recover the direct cost of record search and copying."
"Publication in a newspaper or broadcast by news media for news purposes shall not constitute a resale or use of a record for trade or commercial purpose and charges for providing copies of electronic data to the news media for a news purpose shall not exceed the direct cost of making the copy."
"Any public body establishing fees under this act shall post a written schedule of the fees at its principal office and with the county clerk."
"In no case shall a search fee be charged when the release of records is in the public interest, including, but not limited to, release to the news media, scholars, authors and taxpayers seeking to determine whether those entrusted with the affairs of the government are honestly, faithfully, and competently performing their duties as public servants."
"The fees shall not be used for the purpose of discouraging requests for information or as obstacles to disclosure of requested information."
I'm proud of this topic, topic drift after one post. We're awesome! Marshalls for everyone!
Quotecities are circumventing the intent and purpose of the statue.
A statue's intent and purpose aren't often circumvented.
(http://bruceleefansite.com/images/statue.jpg)
^Apparently that is the position you must take to access public information around here.
Nice way to mock someone for recognizing a legitimate issue with government transparency.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 31, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Nice way to mock someone for recognizing a legitimate issue with government transparency.
He is extremely mockable.
Have someone else start a thread about the subject and maybe it would be taken seriously.
He's destroyed his own legitimacy.
Quote from: Conan71 on July 31, 2012, 08:58:08 AM
Nice way to mock someone for recognizing a legitimate issue with government transparency.
Conan and I agree on something?
no...way...
Quote from: Townsend on July 31, 2012, 09:02:57 AM
Have someone else start a thread about the subject and maybe it would be taken seriously.
The messenger shouldn't matter as much as the message (at least in this case).
Quote from: patric on July 31, 2012, 10:13:48 AM
The messenger shouldn't matter as much as the message (at least in this case).
He doesn't but would you want your position pushed by Towelie?
Quote from: Townsend on July 31, 2012, 09:02:57 AM
He is extremely mockable.
Have someone else start a thread about the subject and maybe it would be taken seriously.
He's destroyed his own legitimacy.
This. For sure.
Not difficult to do when you find sentences like this:
Quotethe fee is established by the act the consensus of the ghostly person that is to provide access to the information
There are many rooms in my father's house.
He represents a slice of the city that doesn't often post here. I''m impressed that he does. It doesn't mean his insights aren't valuable and that what he refers to isn't impacting your lives.
A translation dictionary would be helpful though.
Quote from: Hoss on July 31, 2012, 10:31:29 AM
This. For sure.
Not difficult to do when you find sentences like this:
I concede to that.
It seems to be a reference to bureaucrats who dont feel they should do their job as prescribed by law, which in this case might be a clerk and treasurer using illegal fees to discourage people from obtaining information they have a right to.
Quote from: patric on July 31, 2012, 11:54:33 AM
It seems to be a reference to bureaucrats who dont feel they should do their job as prescribed by law, which in this case might be a clerk and treasurer using illegal fees to discourage people from obtaining information they have a right to.
We discourage people from voting. Why would we want to inform? More might vote.
One ponders on how the dreams of the lawmakers can be diverted to such nonsense as displayed by posters on public forms in order to discredit their message. Then it can all be reduced to our ignorance as reflected by the final school testing.
Quote from: shadows on July 31, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
One ponders on how the dreams of the lawmakers can be diverted to such nonsense as displayed by posters on public forms in order to discredit their message. Then it can all be reduced to our ignorance as reflected by the final school testing.
Keep trying. Start with "I".
Have you ever sought information that is being withheld?
(One) (pronoun) Rule 7 MWWP dictionary.
Quote from: shadows on July 31, 2012, 03:22:47 PM
Have you ever sought information that is being withheld?
Sure. From government, instructors, business partners, clients, girls...
What's one's point?
Only one who has had need for information take the time to request such information and pursue the right under law understands how complicated it becomes when posters want to play games with citizens rights. This includes the request to examine governmental records under the open records act.
Quote from: shadows on July 31, 2012, 03:58:49 PM
when posters want to play games with citizens rights.
What games citizen?
It is grown, educated, citizens that are presented with a forum to exercise their right to criticize the actions of the republic form of government (Was never intended to be a democratic form) to alarm the populists they are without rights. It seems there are among us are those who would post inflammatory remarks seeking to flame these populists in order to get the forum removed.
Quote from: shadows on July 31, 2012, 05:19:30 PM
It is grown, educated, citizens that are presented with a forum to exercise their right to criticize the actions of the republic form of government (Was never intended to be a democratic form) to alarm the populists they are without rights. It seems there are among us are those who would post inflammatory remarks seeking to flame these populists in order to get the forum removed.
Someone take this one. I've gotta run.
Quote from: Townsend on July 31, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
Someone take this one. I've gotta run.
I would, but the entire conversation has been unintelligible all day. ;)
Quote from: Townsend on July 31, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
Someone take this one. I've gotta run.
Sure. Forums don't observe the First Amendment. As a multiple forum owner I can remove any posts I see fit and don't have to worry about repercussions from knuckleheads who post inflammatory crap. If you post slanderous or libelous information, I'm liable for that legally. I can remove it. Nothing legally you can do.
If you don't like the for(u)m you are presented with here, feel free to create your own where you can spew on and on about pink gas and complain about the new trash service and floodplain management. Then, if people make reasoned, responsible comments to your posts, you can remove them as 'out of the norm'. Or something like that.
I have no idea of what information shadows wants. If it is some special report that must be custom-generated, he should expect some resistance or reasonable charge. If it is some document that is given out to anybody else, he (and the Tulsa World and all of us) should be able to get it easily and free. I have rarely had any trouble getting any City of Tulsa document I need and I have got boxes and boxes of them.
I go to public meetings (was at city hall today), download and printed all the supporting documents, and have already looked at the meeting agendas for City council sub-committee meetings and general meeting this Thursday. Almost every topic has links to backup documentation. My mother and my wife are ex-city hall reporters and I also know the public information laws well. The city and the county are good examples of transparency in my opinion.
I think the problem lies in communication. The city is very transparent if you can communicate what you want and are willing to work within the reasonable restraints of the system. The poster shadows is notorious for being difficult in communicating his message here. Why would we expect anything is different there.
Communication is a two way street and he is probably is parked on the sidewalk.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on July 31, 2012, 05:45:56 PM
Communication is a two way street and he is probably is parked on the sidewalk.
I would have expected the living room (or the lobby, as the case may be).
RM: Any information I have requested has been by the legal request form. I have them available and have help others with their use. There has been no problem gaining access to the information if it is presented in person with a copy of the statue. It is the governmental employees who are responsible to relay the information to inform the citizen. The law was enacted in order that we maintain a “government of the people” not a government of bureaucrats. You may be next in line for a request.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: shadows on July 31, 2012, 06:29:52 PM
RM: Any information I have requested has been by the legal request form. I have them available and have help others with their use. There has been no problem gaining access to the information if it is presented in person with a copy of the statue. It is the governmental employees who are responsible to relay the information to inform the citizen. The law was enacted in order that we maintain a "government of the people" not a government of bureaucrats. You may be next in line for a request.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Let me know what you need and I'll be happy to "research" it for you, most likely for free, but if I need to employ packet sniffers or decryption above AES, there will be a price. ;)
Sorry, my price is a plane ticket to a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US. The work is free after that. ;)
Just try to get information from the FBI. Exercise in "it ain't gonna happen"....
Quote from: Gaspar on August 01, 2012, 09:54:59 AM
Let me know what you need and I'll be happy to "research" it for you, most likely for free, but if I need to employ packet sniffers or decryption above AES, there will be a price. ;)
...
I wonder if you have available the amount of sales taxes collected in the 2025 proposition up to date, the amount of such funds in the banks we are paying interest on, the amount of interest, and what schedule is in force to complete the projects voted for.
Quote from: shadows on August 18, 2012, 09:30:21 PM
...
I wonder if you have available the amount of sales taxes collected in the 2025 proposition up to date, the amount of such funds in the banks we are paying interest on, the amount of interest, and what schedule is in force to complete the projects voted for.
Not sure what you mean by "in the banks we are paying interest on?"
Through July, the sales tax had raised $451,498,218, with the cost of the projects totaling $542,340,913.
As of June 30, the county had paid $123.5 million in interest on the bonds sold.
No ideas on schedules, you would probably need to ask Mr. Crow about that. It would be a nice feature to be included on the website.
I will speak as a Government lacky who has answered about 15 FOIA requests. As simple as a one page response, as deep as 1200 pages of purchasing records, thanks to GSA and their conference issues. I do agree that records should be readily available for release, but you have to have something in there to make it a little painful. And I don't say that to be sarcastic or bitter, I say that because I have seen some of the requests that haven't been successful in their request and it is nothing more that elaborate data mining. The information requested is broad and non descript, so you are essentially giving them a haystack so they can try to find any needle, but if you look at the number of organizations that have the exact same request, and figure that everyone is spending 1-2 days in gathering all the information, it is a huge amount of tax payer dollars.
But again, I cannot speak for the state. OK is a little messed up. We gripe, whine and moan about the federal Governments mismanagement of money, but we don't look at our own state.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 20, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
Not sure what you mean by "in the banks we are paying interest on?"
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I was looking for file information on the amount, if any, whereas we circumvent the “pay as you go” by using the statutory municipal bonding statue in starting the unfunded jobs, to prolong them for years.
Thanks a lot for the current information.
There seems be a discrepancy on the interpretation of the state statues by the State of Tulsa officials on the production of a request under the “Open Records ” and “The Freedom of Information Acts”. These acts were intended for the citizen to have access to the fundamentals of a Republic form of government. Their purpose and intent is being circumvented by the governing body’s failure of providing information in a timely manner for the citizens to acquire the information that is demanded to sustain our systems of government. Being we are a late comer in exercising a republic form of government competing in a world with thousands of years of experience while we have an existence of just a little more than one hundred years.
The TW world again is pursuing in the Wednesday paper the crusade to make available the citizens records that inform the citizen by opening the locked doors with time locks on them.
Do the citizens of the state of Tulsa need free access to their records is it necessary for the self imposed locks be removed from the doors? Do they want facts or lip service from their employees?