QuoteReligious discrimination lawsuit filed claiming Voss Lighting requires workers to be Christian
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20120614_14_A1_Beinga699339
By DAVID HARPER World Staff Writer
Published: 6/14/2012 2:28 AM
Last Modified: 6/14/2012 3:38 AM
Being "a 'born-again' Christian" was required of a job applicant at a national lighting company's Tulsa location, a religious discrimination lawsuit filed in federal court this week claims.
The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission filed the lawsuit against Voss Lighting in Tulsa federal court on Tuesday.
Edward Wolfe applied for an operations supervisor position at Voss Lighting's Tulsa store in early 2011, according to the EEOC. The agency claims in the lawsuit that, during the application process, two local managers made numerous inquiries, "both subtle and overt," about Wolfe's religious activities and beliefs.
Wolfe allegedly was asked to identify every church he has attended over the past several years, where and when he was "saved" and the circumstances that led to that event, and whether he "would have a problem" coming into work early to attend Bible study before clocking in for the day.
The lawsuit recounts an alleged conversation in which one of the managers purportedly told Wolfe that the majority of Voss' employees were Southern Baptist, "but that it wasn't required that you go to a Southern Baptist Church. As long as you were a 'born-again' Christian, it didn't matter what church you attended."
The EEOC claims that the same manager expressed "overt agitation and disapproval" to Wolfe's responses to the religious line of questioning and that Wolfe was ultimately denied employment on the basis of his religious beliefs.
Steve Sanderson, vice president and general manager for the Lincoln, Neb.-based company, sent the Tulsa World a written response to the lawsuit on Wednesday, saying: "Voss denies that the charging party was not hired as a consequence of his religious beliefs. The individual hired by Voss had more lighting product experience and was more qualified than the charging party. Voss looks forward to a judicial determination of the rights of the parties."
The company's website says its "biblical mission is to 'sell' our lighting products so that we may 'tell' everyone we can about God's soul-saving, life-transforming gospel message as Jesus instructed believers to do."
The website describes Henry Voss, now deceased, as "the man God selected to found Voss Electric in 1939" and says other generations have been given the "opportunity to help make America better and also to be used by our Lord to make the Bible's saving Gospel known."
The website also says the company "is one of the nation's leading suppliers of specialized replacement lighting products" and serves "a broad range of customers from business and industry to schools and governmental agencies."
The business's Tulsa location is at 3168 S. 108th East Ave.
The EEOC's suit seeks compensatory and punitive damages for Wolfe as well as injunctive relief, including a court order prohibiting Voss Lighting from any further discrimination against applicants on the basis of their religious beliefs or nonbeliefs.
"Voss Lighting appears to have a corporate culture that requires employees adhere to certain religious beliefs that have absolutely no bearing on the business of selling lighting products," EEOC trial attorney Patrick Holman said in a written statement.
"This litigation, we hope, will serve to illuminate Voss Lighting as to Title VII's prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of religion."
Title VII is part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Original Print Headline: Lawsuit: Christianity required of applicant
Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=14&articleid=20120614_14_A1_Beinga699339
I am certain that this was what Jesus would have done....aren't you?
People seem to be offended that religion be entered into political discussion. But telling their evening host he's doomed to hell for eternity for not being a believer is acceptable. I think there are too many religious bigots and betrayers to their own codes walking around. It goes with being unhealthy and uneducated.
RM please don't play TNF MP with this thread. OK, Big Daddy?
This thread is topical and worthy of discussion. You don't seem to be just trying to make fun of a person's religion. There is a difference.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 14, 2012, 07:30:58 AM
This thread is topical and worthy of discussion. You don't seem to be just trying to make fun of a person's religion. There is a difference.
Agreed. Saw it in the actual print copy this morning (my mother still takes the print version, mainly for the crosswords) and asked myself how long would it take before TTC posted it. Longer than I thought.
But Voss, if this is proven to be correct, is in a world of trouble here.
My experience with this bears repeating because this is not uncommon. It is usually done with some plausable deniability by using friends and employees to "refer" applicants.
I was talking to a fellow entrepreneur/salesman type guy and was telling him how I just wanted a good company to work for where I could really contribute. He said, "I know of a good company that could use someone with your skills. But, they're looking for a Christian." I replied, "Not that it should matter but I am a Lutheran Christian."
He said, "How can that be? You're a Democrat".
It seems employment is often enhanced by finding the right church, the right politics, the right sports teams. Even a local poster on this forum was unapologetic in telling me that from his perspective businesses don't like to hire Democrats if they know.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 14, 2012, 07:30:58 AM
This thread is topical and worthy of discussion. You don't seem to be just trying to make fun of a person's religion. There is a difference.
Wrong you are....what do you think one of the main objectives of the LDS is? Also, a consortium of insiders in the White House just may limit diversity in government. While it may not be obvious or stated, there is prejudice and discrimination in their ways of operating. Had Wolfe not stepped forward, this would never had seen the light of day. How many other firms operate this way?
I sat with a New Jersey woman yesterday at lunch who told me after a year here she has to move on from Oklahoma. At first she said her impression was the people around here are friendly. She told me that fades away once you get past the surface....
Maybe you should go with her?
Religious intolerance is a huge issue in the country. The Rev. Wright issue brings to light the enormity of affiliation. A Jew could never be elected President in the US nor a Hindu, Budist, Muslim nor a non-theist nor agnostic nor an atheist.
MP...love it or leave it? How about condemn it?
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 14, 2012, 08:11:31 AM
Maybe you should go with her?
She said your type were the worst types...they portray love and kindness but are rotten at the root.
I know of a certain Nissan dealer that has early morning prayer meetings.
They even use their belief oh so subtle in their slogan.
At a previous job, I was talking to one of the other engineering managers about our respective church's. At the time, I had stopped attending my previous one and had not found a replacement. He casually asked me where I went, and when I explained that I used to go to "XXXX", but right now didn't attend, he flat out said, "well, maybe you should..."
Guess how long I lasted there?
It actually did not affect my outlook on attending church - well, maybe a little about attending the "Hijacked Southern Baptist Convention". But since such a big part of the family is still a part of that group, I cannot hold it all against the church. But it is tough to forgive that type of person - I can do it, but it's tough. He has just lost his way a little bit, and I hope he gets back to the right path.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 08:23:57 AM
Religious intolerance is a huge issue in the country. The Rev. Wright issue brings to light the enormity of affiliation. A Jew could never be elected President in the US nor a Hindu, Budist, Muslim nor a non-theist nor agnostic nor an atheist.
MP...love it or leave it? How about condemn it?
So says one of the more intolerant people toward religion on here.
People said a Roman Catholic would never be president.
People said a black man would never lead this country. Anecdotes suggest Obama may have been a practicing Muslim at one time as well.
Sooner or later barriers start to fall. They've fallen more rapidly in the last 50 years. Things which seemed impossible or verboten like female CEO's or even legislators has fallen to the wayside.
I suspect in the next 50 years we will see a female president, Jewish president, agnostic president, and quite possibly an openly gay president.
I also hope along with that we will quit identifying ourselves into so many sub-sets that it seems remarkable when a certain "first" happens. Personally, I'm a member of the human race first and foremost.
All that said, I'll get back to the OT- if a company's biggest priority seems to be the religion of their employees (well, other than a church or temple), no chance I'd work there.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 14, 2012, 10:05:06 AM
All that said, I'll get back to the OT- if a company's biggest priority seems to be the religion of their employees (well, other than a church or temple), no chance I'd work there.
Yes you would if the pay were right.
You're not that righteous.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 12:33:41 PM
Yes you would if the pay were right.
You're not that righteous.
Think you know me better than I know myself, eh?
I got 5 emails from friends across the country all stating: "Nice town you live in."
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/fed-lawsuit-lighting-store-required-workers-to-be-christian/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+%28News+-+Top+Stories%29#.T9ogyBevKSp National Press! And look at the comments!
I like this one: " I worked for a gentleman in college that would only hire Jews, it's just the way he was and he business still flourishes to this day "
and I agree with this: "I could see a business requiring this if that religious belief would uniquely qualify an applicant for the specific job - for example if you are running a Christian Bookstore it would make sense to have employees that are Christians in order to effectively deal with their clientele" ...because that's what I told Mard Green the time we met to discuss rent.
It is against the law to discriminate in hiring.
Conan, I know you well enough.
"Nice town you live in."
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 12:48:56 PM
I got 5 emails from friends across the country all stating: "Nice town you live in."
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/fed-lawsuit-lighting-store-required-workers-to-be-christian/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+%28News+-+Top+Stories%29#.T9ogyBevKSp National Press! And look at the comments!
I like this one: " I worked for a gentleman in college that would only hire Jews, it's just the way he was and he business still flourishes to this day "
and I agree with this: "I could see a business requiring this if that religious belief would uniquely qualify an applicant for the specific job - for example if you are running a Christian Bookstore it would make sense to have employees that are Christians in order to effectively deal with their clientele" ...because that's what I told Mard Green the time we met to discuss rent.
It is against the law to discriminate in hiring.
Conan, I know you well enough.
"Nice town you live in."
Speaking of Mart Green and Hob-Lob/Mardels.
That's an interesting quandary. EOE should protect against religious-based discrimination in the work place. Mardel's is a Christian book and gift store. An overt atheist or satan-worshipper with tattoos glorifying satanic worship would really be counter to the known and stated mission of Mardel's.
What's to keep someone from suing Mardel's for discriminatory hiring practices?
I'm serious, why haven't they been sued before?
Quote from: Conan71 on June 14, 2012, 12:54:14 PM
Speaking of Mart Green and Hob-Lob/Mardels.
That's an interesting quandary. EOE should protect against religious-based discrimination in the work place. Mardel's is a Christian book and gift store. An overt atheist or satan-worshipper with tattoos glorifying satanic worship would really be counter to the known and stated mission of Mardel's.
What's to keep someone from suing Mardel's for discriminatory hiring practices?
I'm serious, why haven't they been sued before?
There are certain skills and understanding one must have to qualify. You wouldn't hire a vet to work in an emergency room. Well, maybe in Oklahoma.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 12:48:56 PM
I got 5 emails from friends across the country all stating: "Nice town you live in."
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/fed-lawsuit-lighting-store-required-workers-to-be-christian/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+%28News+-+Top+Stories%29#.T9ogyBevKSp National Press! And look at the comments!
I like this one: " I worked for a gentleman in college that would only hire Jews, it's just the way he was and he business still flourishes to this day "
and I agree with this: "I could see a business requiring this if that religious belief would uniquely qualify an applicant for the specific job - for example if you are running a Christian Bookstore it would make sense to have employees that are Christians in order to effectively deal with their clientele" ...because that's what I told Mard Green the time we met to discuss rent.
It is against the law to discriminate in hiring.
Conan, I know you well enough.
"Nice town you live in."
How is this a Tulsa issue? It's a chain based two states away and this looks to be a corporate policy, not a local one.
Seriously Swake?...where you been?
Just the other night I hosted a dinner where one of my guests started in on me how I was doomed to hell for being a non-believer. And I was buying the drinks that gave her the guts to speak her mind. The gall.
If allegations are true then this is obviously a clear cut case of discrimination. That being said, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone who isn't Christian to work for a company that espouses Christianity as a part of their mission statement. While a non-Christian can do so, I don't see why they would care to. If they are unwilling to uphold the company mission, then that would be a reason to refuse employment.
Quote from: custosnox on June 14, 2012, 01:55:28 PM
If allegations are true then this is obviously a clear cut case of discrimination. That being said, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone who isn't Christian to work for a company that espouses Christianity as a part of their mission statement. While a non-Christian can do so, I don't see why they would care to. If they are unwilling to uphold the company mission, then that would be a reason to refuse employment.
Damn straight. Too bad there aren't more Jews to choose from in our work force...they don't feel comfortable in this part of the world. :-X
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 01:07:24 PM
There are certain skills and understanding one must have to qualify. You wouldn't hire a vet to work in an emergency room. Well, maybe in Oklahoma.
But, can an employer really hold that out as a condition of employment? What does someone really need to understand about Christianity to stock shelves or operate a bar code scanner on a cash register in a Christian book store?
I've been worried about making "no tobacco use" a condition of employment when I hire someone, so I guess that is way safer than checking the religion, now that it is out in the open. One less worry.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 14, 2012, 02:12:43 PM
I've been worried about making "no tobacco use" a condition of employment when I hire someone, so I guess that is way safer than checking the religion, now that it is out in the open. One less worry.
I applied for a grounds-keeping job at ORU when I was enrolled at TCC one summer. They had a no tobacco policy in use. That does not appear to be discriminatory. At least not until tobacco use becomes defined as a disability. Just wait...
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 14, 2012, 02:12:43 PM
I've been worried about making "no tobacco use" a condition of employment when I hire someone, so I guess that is way safer than checking the religion, now that it is out in the open. One less worry.
I think you can do that due to insurance liability or cost. Am I right on one of those? Seem to remember reading that.
Quote from: Townsend on June 14, 2012, 02:20:37 PM
I think you can do that due to insurance liability or cost. Am I right on one of those? Seem to remember reading that.
Yes, to an extent. Avis has that policy out here at CorpWoods. Well, not the 'no tobacco use', but they no longer allow it's use on the campus, so they have to walk out to the outer drive and stand by a couple of little sapling trees. And they've put sufficient enough pressure on the management company here that it forced our company to revise where employees could use it. Many were upset. Didn't bother me since I quit back in 07.
Quote from: Conan71 on June 14, 2012, 02:10:39 PM
But, can an employer really hold that out as a condition of employment? What does someone really need to understand about Christianity to stock shelves or operate a bar code scanner on a cash register in a Christian book store?
Verse? Tongues?
Quote from: Hoss on June 14, 2012, 02:23:58 PM
Yes, to an extent. Avis has that policy out here at CorpWoods. Well, not the 'no tobacco use', but they no longer allow it's use on the campus, so they have to walk out to the outer drive and stand by a couple of little sapling trees. And they've put sufficient enough pressure on the management company here that it forced our company to revise where employees could use it. Many were upset. Didn't bother me since I quit back in 07.
Tulsa Fire Department instituted a no smoking policy of it's new recruits some time back. I believe that pretty well speaks for itself.
I believe any company can simply say there is no smoking on company premises at any time. That doesn't exclude smokers from being eligible for employment, it simply means they cannot smoke on campus. At least until the previous scenario comes to fruition and smoking is deemed "therapeutic" for the disability of nicotine addiction.
QuoteTongues?
Probably important to be a butcher.
This kind of applies to this conversation. What are your thoughts about this Holy roller a$$hat CEO?
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-ceo-prays-with-insults-then-fires-employees/article/3680483
I have serious doubts about people who deem Christianity important in business relations. I went into business with a guy who was very concerned that my then-husband and myself were Christians. He said his Christianity was very important to him. Worked with him for a week when the true colors bled out. He then stated he knew he was an a$$hole and was proud of it. He said the only way to get anything from anybody was to be one. Even went so far as to say he would teach me to be one too. Needless to say, I didn't let the door hit me on my way out.
TTC: Your friend would be wise to steer clear of the ones touting their Christianity and spend more time with those living it. She'd better ready herself as she will find that "type" is not exclusive to just one part of the country.
Quote from: MrsConan on June 14, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
I have serious doubts about people who deem Christianity important in business relations. I went into business with a guy who was very concerned that my then-husband and myself were Christians. He said his Christianity was very important to him. Worked with him for a week when the true colors bled out. He then stated he knew he was an a$$hole and was proud of it. He said the only way to get anything from anybody was to be one. Even went so far as to say he would teach me to be one too. Needless to say, I didn't let the door hit me on my way out.
TTC: Your friend would be wise to steer clear of the ones touting their Christianity and spend more time with those living it. She'd better ready herself as she will find that "type" is not exclusive to just one part of the country.
I think you're confused. Two mutually exclusive events. The woman from Jersey who said everyone on the surface is "nice" made no comment about religion. It was more an observation about our unauthenticated "community."
Now the other conversation I mentioned was that dirty drug alcohol trying, through an inconsiderate Christian woman, to exorcise my demons . :-[
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 02:24:06 PM
Verse? Tongues?
Do you really think that being a Christian gives someone more knowledge on on verses? It seems that in general, most atheists know more about the bible than most Christians. As far as tongues, I assume you are referring to speaking in tongues, only a small percentage of Christians speak in "tongues," though I know some atheists that can as well.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 11:57:33 PM
I think you're confused. Two mutually exclusive events. The woman from Jersey who said everyone on the surface is "nice" made no comment about religion. It was more an observation about our unauthenticated "community."
Now the other conversation I mentioned was that dirty drug alcohol trying, through an inconsiderate Christian woman, to exorcise my demons . :-[
Ahhh.....but it is the same concept, regardless if Christianity is brought into the conversation or not. All show, no go. And, you'll find that everywhere. As if someone from the East coast could spot authenticity. Not even if it bit her on her little Jersey hiney.
I politely refrained from any comment as to the other topic of exorcising your demons. An effort in futility, I'm sure.;)
Mrs C. I like you already. When I read that someone from Jersey was not impressed by Oklahomans being polite, nice and informed. I was like "Meh!" The main thing that I have always been proud of is if you ask for directions or need any kind of help here in Oklahoma. We true Okies will help you.
I don't have to worry about being directed to the nearest hood if i'm lost. I had a friend from California who was riding with me and I did the casual wave as you drive by another vehicle coming toward you and she asked if I knew them? When I said no she asked why I waved? TTC, Why did I wave?
Back on topic. My pastor from the pulpit said some of the meanest people he ever knew were Christians.
Real born again, live it everyday and by the word people do not use the word as Bible Darts and use it to uplift instead of tear down other people. They know that there are hypocrites among them. Just as in the real World you are known by who you associate with. Not casualy know.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 09:51:03 AM
Real born again, live it everyday and by the word people do not use the word as Bible Darts and use it to uplift instead of tear down other people. They know that there are hypocrites among them. Just as in the real World you are known by who you associate with. Not casualy know.
Those hypocrites will agree with you and say the same thing about other Christians.
Almost every Christian considers himself/herself a "Real born again, live it everyday and by the word people".
You know, "love thy neighbor", "do unto others", "turn the other cheek" unless the other person is a different religion, race, sexual orientation...all it takes is a leader to drive them to not-so-Christian ways.
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 14, 2012, 01:16:07 PM
Seriously Swake?...where you been?
Just the other night I hosted a dinner where one of my guests started in on me how I was doomed to hell for being a non-believer. And I was buying the drinks that gave her the guts to speak her mind. The gall.
You need better friends.
Quote from: Townsend on June 15, 2012, 09:57:55 AM
Those hypocrites will agree with you and say the same thing about other Christians.
Almost every Christian considers himself/herself a "Real born again, live it everyday and by the word people".
You know, "love thy neighbor", "do unto others", "turn the other cheek" unless the other person is a different religion, race, sexual orientation...all it takes is a leader to drive them to not-so-Christian ways.
It's not Religion, It's relationship. A one on one type thing. I can't prey you or anyone else into Heaven. Only you can. A Church is only a place to be fed the word of God and to lift you spiritually. You chose where and who you worship with. And it is very hard to discern who is genuine from the pulpit. That is why it takes some time to find the right Church and spiritual family.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 10:29:29 AM
It's not Religion, It's relationship. A one on one type thing. I can't prey you or anyone else into Heaven. Only you can. A Church is only a place to be fed the word of God and to lift you spiritually. You chose where and who you worship with. And it is very hard to discern who is genuine from the pulpit. That is why it takes some time to find the right Church and spiritual family.
I don't mean a church leader. Anyone can lead you into a belief, right or wrong. You just have to allow yourself to be led.
All I know is beware of the person who speaks the loudest about being "devout".
If you have to tell people you are a devout Christian or follower of some deity, you probably aren't living it.
I think some churches misspell GOD by adding the letter L and it becomes GOLD.
Agree with that, Conan. Also beware of those who profess their religion to be superior. A woman we knew once assured us over dinner that she was a member of the one true religion...Catholicism. It is not only demeaning to be considered children of a lesser God but casts doubt on their understanding of their faith and faith in general. Not to mention creating some animosity towards Catholics. I'm sure other religions like Islam, also feel in their hearts that they are the one true religion and I know from experience that Baptists are sure everyone else is destined for hell.
Attitudes like that cause wars.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on June 15, 2012, 11:08:03 AM
I think some churches misspell GOD by adding the letter L and it becomes GOLD.
(http://bbhc.com/samsblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/televangelist2.jpg)(http://www.truthwinsout.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/osteen.jpg)(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxEPcSBHlyNoCyx_YYTZRQhqB1j1-oLlNmjs8wswZqVLie_ehK)(http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/bennyhinn.jpg)(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/___JcA1T-NCM/SqSEGkhBzSI/AAAAAAAAAW8/FNaZif4uLa8/s400/image3767745g.jpg)(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EcL8OjFrYXE/T0J33PfjhnI/AAAAAAAAAxU/B2XJZZb1Jp4/s1600/crouch1.jpg)(http://images.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2009/12/oral.jpg)(http://pagospel.com/articles/images/creflodollar.jpg)(http://aljacobsladder.com/_Media/pastedgraphic-58_med.jpeg)
Quote from: AquaMan on June 15, 2012, 11:14:23 AM
Agree with that, Conan. Also beware of those who profess their religion to be superior. A woman we knew once assured us over dinner that she was a member of the one true religion...Catholicism. It is not only demeaning to be considered children of a lesser God but casts doubt on their understanding of their faith and faith in general. Not to mention creating some animosity towards Catholics. I'm sure other religions like Islam, also feel in their hearts that they are the one true religion and I know from experience that Baptists are sure everyone else is destined for hell.
Attitudes like that cause wars.
And according to some Pentacostals the Catholics are on an express train to Hell.
You know why Baptists don't have sex standing up, right?
The are afraid someone might think they were dancing.
There are only two people in all those pictures that I have listened to and believe they are actually living for God.
You can't discriminate due to race, creed, color, religion, age, disability. Smoking, drinking, recreational drug use, non recreational drug use etc are not covered. Mardel/HL probably don't get in trouble because they are smart enough to not base a hiring decision on those items. It is retail, you can't be too picky.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 01:09:47 PM
There are only two people in all those pictures that I have listened to and believe they are actually living for God.
There are many more. It's all I had the desire to post.
Several have family in the business because it's so lucrative.
I'm still puzzled by what Bible Fred Phelps is reading and preaching from.
Can you just imagine a all eternity place with that family? I think I would kill myself. Wait...what?
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 01:09:47 PM
There are only two people in all those pictures that I have listened to and believe they are actually living for God.
You found two?
Quote from: swake on June 15, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
You found two?
Yes sir. There are two individuals pictured who I listened to and learned from in the mid to late 90s.
Dear Employees:
As the CEO of this organization, I have resigned myself to the fact that
Barrack Obama is our President and that our taxes and government fees will
increase in a BIG way. To compensate for these increases, our prices would
have to increase by about 10%.
But since we cannot increase our prices right now due to the dismal state of
the economy, we will have to lay off sixty of our employees instead.
This has really been bothering me since I believe we are family here and I
didn't know how to choose who would have to go.
So, this is what I did. I walked through our parking lots and found sixty
'Obama' bumper stickers on our employees' cars and have decided these folks
will be the ones to let go. I can't think of a more fair way to approach
this problem. They voted for change......I gave it to them.
I will see the rest of you at the annual company picnic.
Signed, The Boss
I guess you can't do this either?
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 02:19:26 PM
Yes sir. There are two individuals pictured who I listened to and learned from in the mid to late 90s.
Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!
Quote from: Conan71 on June 15, 2012, 10:55:07 AM
All I know is beware of the person who speaks the loudest about being "devout".
If you have to tell people you are a devout Christian or follower of some deity, you probably aren't living it.
Case in point:
Michael DelGiorno.
A Catholic priest, a rabbi, and a televangelist are having coffee. The discussion turns to how tithes and other monetary donations are used and divvied up.
The priest says: "I draw a circle on the floor. Then I toss all the week's donations up in the air. Whatever falls inside the circle I keep for my parish, the rest I send off to the missions, the diocese, and The Vatican.
The rabbi says: "I draw a very large square on the floor. I toss all the week's donations up in the air. Whatever falls outside the square, I keep for myself and my temple. Whatever falls inside I send to local food banks, the Hebrew school, and worthy causes in Israel."
The televangelest says: "I walk into a room, throw all the donations in the air and whatever God wants, he grabs..."
Quote from: Hoss on June 15, 2012, 03:10:46 PM
Case in point:
Michael DelGiorno.
(http://snuggiesightings.com/snuggie/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/michael_delgiorno.jpg)
Quote from: Conan71 on June 15, 2012, 03:12:57 PM
A Catholic priest, a rabbi, and a televangelist are having coffee. The discussion turns to how tithes and other monetary donations are used and divvied up.
The priest says: "I draw a circle on the floor. Then I toss all the week's donations up in the air. Whatever falls inside the circle I keep for my parish, the rest I send off to the missions, the diocese, and The Vatican.
The rabbi says: "I draw a very large square on the floor. I toss all the week's donations up in the air. Whatever falls outside the square, I keep for myself and my temple. Whatever falls inside I send to local food banks, the Hebrew school, and worthy causes in Israel."
The televangelest says: "I walk into a room, throw all the donations in the air and whatever God wants, he grabs..."
Been watching Short Circuit again?
Quote from: guido911 on June 15, 2012, 09:21:18 PM
(http://snuggiesightings.com/snuggie/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/michael_delgiorno.jpg)
Wow....
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 15, 2012, 02:19:26 PM
Yes sir. There are two individuals pictured who I listened to and learned from in the mid to late 90s.
Ok, I'll bite...which two?
I could maybe see Joel Osteen in his early years, but he is way beyond that now....Creflo? Well, his last name says it all.
The rest of them? They would all gag a maggot off a gut wagon....
Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. My only letdown with Creflo is that he is Evander Holyfields pastor. And we know how he turned out.
I also learned from Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, Marilyn Hickey and Joyce Meyer.
I was a five year member at Higher Demensions Church right up to when the Church seperated after Pastor Carlton started preaching the Gospel of inclusivness.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 18, 2012, 11:35:46 AM
Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. My only letdown with Creflo is that he is Evander Holyfields pastor. And we know how he turned out.
I also learned from Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, Marilyn Hickey and Joyce Meyer.
I was a five year member at Higher Demensions Church right up to when the Church seperated after Pastor Carlton started preaching the Gospel of inclusivness.
Is it such a far-fetched theory that there is no Hell? I saw what happened to him (via a documentary) after all that. It wasn't really fair. The threats and admonishment of his peers. That's real Christian of them...
Quote from: Hoss on June 18, 2012, 11:53:13 AM
I saw what happened to him (via a documentary) after all that. It wasn't really fair. The threats and admonishment of his peers. That's real Christian of them...
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. [Matthew 7:12]
Always open for interpretation.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 18, 2012, 11:35:46 AM
Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar. My only letdown with Creflo is that he is Evander Holyfields pastor. And we know how he turned out.
I also learned from Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, Marilyn Hickey and Joyce Meyer.
I was a five year member at Higher Demensions Church right up to when the Church seperated after Pastor Carlton started preaching the Gospel of inclusivness.
The only let down you have with Creflo Want a Dollar is Evander Holyfield attending his church?
Not Dollar's million dollar homes, his grade of "F" from MinistryWatch, or his facing charges for choking his daughter? Copeland is similar with his houses and planes and he is also on MinistryWatch's list of donor alerts. Both were the subject of Senate hearing into financial issues and they refused to submit any finance data to anyone.
Rod Parsley and T.D. Jakes are on the list too.
These people are scam artists.
There is also the ability to discern the teaching of the word. I was listening to the message of the scripture and what it meant and applied to me.
The one thing that I do know is that the Lord rewards you for great works done in his name. Nowhere does it say that the men of God should live as paupers. I know that it is the mentality of the non spiritual World to think that all who are called to preach the word of God should have a Mother Teresa ministry but that is not so. Yes we have seen over the years Televangelist who fall the way of the World with power of money and fame. But not all of who preach the Gospel on Television fall in the all inclusive pack as everyone is inclined to think. That's were the discern part comes in.
And again as I have said. It's your life and salvation. You make the choice where you are fed.
And on the money part. It's ok for athlete's, Movie stars, Politicians, Doctors, Lawyers, Singers, CEO's etc. etc. to live in the biggest house on the block but not Pastors or Men of God?
And I know the answer will be. They are living off other peoples money. i.e. Policemen, Firemen, Stock market investors, Water Department, State Highway department, Highway patrol. Anything to do with peoples taxes. Thats other peoples money. And it's taken! not willingly given by offerings and tithes.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 18, 2012, 01:35:15 PM
And on the money part. It's ok for athlete's, Movie stars, Politicians, Doctors, Lawyers, Singers, CEO's etc. etc. to live in the biggest house on the block but not Pastors or Men of God?
A life of service to their God. Not themselves.
Quote from: DolfanBob on June 18, 2012, 01:35:15 PM
There is also the ability to discern the teaching of the word. I was listening to the message of the scripture and what it meant and applied to me.
The one thing that I do know is that the Lord rewards you for great works done in his name. Nowhere does it say that the men of God should live as paupers. I know that it is the mentality of the non spiritual World to think that all who are called to preach the word of God should have a Mother Teresa ministry but that is not so. Yes we have seen over the years Televangelist who fall the way of the World with power of money and fame. But not all of who preach the Gospel on Television fall in the all inclusive pack as everyone is inclined to think. That's were the discern part comes in.
And again as I have said. It's your life and salvation. You make the choice where you are fed.
And on the money part. It's ok for athlete's, Movie stars, Politicians, Doctors, Lawyers, Singers, CEO's etc. etc. to live in the biggest house on the block but not Pastors or Men of God?
And I know the answer will be. They are living off other peoples money. i.e. Policemen, Firemen, Stock market investors, Water Department, State Highway department, Highway patrol. Anything to do with peoples taxes. Thats other peoples money. And it's taken! not willingly given by offerings and tithes.
Religion is overtly free from taxation....the rest of the above have to find loopholes.