The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

From the Owasso Reporter:

HB 3038 would repeal Oklahoma's progressive personal income tax without necessitating increases in other tax rates or cuts in funding to core government services.

Were Oklahoma to eliminate its personal income tax without raising or expanding any other tax rates, the state would have the lowest overall tax burden in the continental United States.

"When you consider the many other positive reforms Oklahoma has made in recent years, like becoming a Right-to-Work state and phasing out our death tax, and then add in one of the lowest tax burdens in America, it's fair to say we would have one of the top business climates of any state," said Rep. Tom Newell, another author of the legislation.

HB 3038 would phase out the state personal income tax through a process of simplifying the tax code, making modest reductions in wasteful, inefficient and non-essential state spending at the outset of the phase-out process, and utilizing growth revenue from other sources as Oklahoma's private sector grows in response to the state's dramatically improved tax climate.

Yep, they're gonna eliminate wasteful spending, like education, roads, parks, health care, and all those other frivolities.  What did TPD lose in the last year, something like $5 million?  And it's going to get worse.

Quote from: Ed W on March 01, 2012, 06:02:45 PM
From the Owasso Reporter:

HB 3038 would repeal Oklahoma's progressive personal income tax without necessitating increases in other tax rates or cuts in funding to core government services.

Were Oklahoma to eliminate its personal income tax without raising or expanding any other tax rates, the state would have the lowest overall tax burden in the continental United States.

"When you consider the many other positive reforms Oklahoma has made in recent years, like becoming a Right-to-Work state and phasing out our death tax, and then add in one of the lowest tax burdens in America, it's fair to say we would have one of the top business climates of any state," said Rep. Tom Newell, another author of the legislation.

HB 3038 would phase out the state personal income tax through a process of simplifying the tax code, making modest reductions in wasteful, inefficient and non-essential state spending at the outset of the phase-out process, and utilizing growth revenue from other sources as Oklahoma's private sector grows in response to the state's dramatically improved tax climate.

Yep, they're gonna eliminate wasteful spending, like education, roads, parks, health care, and all those other frivolities.  What did TPD lose in the last year, something like $5 million?  And it's going to get worse.

I think the most wasteful spending is on this congress's salaries. Can we phase that out over 10 years commiserate with the income tax reduction?
I'm not against lower taxes, who would be? But I don't want to jeopardize the future, or education or infrastructure or parks to get there.

One quick point of clarification: how does "no personal income tax" equate to "more business friendly"?
One other quick point of clarification: If we are so business friendly where are all of the new enterprises knocking each other down to move into OK?

 Personally I think its fine if the State eliminates the income tax and cuts state government to the bone.  Heck you could eliminate the state government for all I care.  Let each municipality/city/county tax and spend as it pleases and allow them to do the things the state government might do, if they want.  Would be better for Tulsa imho.  Less of my money going to OKC to support jobs there, and more of it staying here in Tulsa, the better.  

 Tulsa is just as capable of spending its money on education, parks, etc. in Tulsa as the state is... if not better.  At least we have the potential for better oversight and control of the spending when it's here.  This is one issue where I am more than happy to let the state Republicans have their way.  And while we are at it lets eliminate some wasteful, meddling, state regents out of the university picture as well.

Quote from: carltonplace on March 02, 2012, 08:00:55 AM
One quick point of clarification: how does "no personal income tax" equate to "more business friendly"?
One other quick point of clarification: If we are so business friendly where are all of the new enterprises knocking each other down to move into OK?

Larger companies will look at tax rates and cost of living when considering a location. Lower taxes and cost of living means they can pay people less. Since personnel costs are often the greatest portion of what a company spends in a year, the savings can be significant.

Quote from: sgrizzle on March 02, 2012, 10:35:29 AM
Larger companies will look at tax rates and cost of living when considering a location. Lower taxes and cost of living means they can pay people less. Since personnel costs are often the greatest portion of what a company spends in a year, the savings can be significant.

On the other hand if the companies have to pay their employees more because they don't want to live here...

Bad roads, education, failing mass transit, no health care, parks are trashed, etc.

Quote from: Townsend on March 02, 2012, 10:40:24 AM
On the other hand if the companies have to pay their employees more because they don't want to live here...

Bad roads, education, failing mass transit, no health care, parks are trashed, etc.

They wouldn't necessarily be worse. What evidence do you have to conclude that. Look at the states that don't have income tax, are there roads/services terrible? No. Of the nine or so states that don't have a personal income tax (some have no corporate tax as well) 7 are the fastest growing in the county.

I have always felt that government should be as local as possible. It increases accountability. That is why the federal government is such a problem. There is literally zero accountability, and it shows.

Quote from: erfalf on March 02, 2012, 10:52:37 AM
They wouldn't necessarily be worse. What evidence do you have to conclude that. Look at the states that don't have income tax, are there roads/services terrible? No. Of the nine or so states that don't have a personal income tax (some have no corporate tax as well) 7 are the fastest growing in the county.

I have always felt that government should be as local as possible. It increases accountability. That is why the federal government is such a problem. There is literally zero accountability, and it shows.

Compare other tax levels.  How's the property tax look?

Quote from: Townsend on March 02, 2012, 10:54:33 AM
Compare other tax levels.  How's the property tax look?

As I mentioned in a previous thread where this came up, Texans pay more per capita in tax than we do, despite the lack of an income tax. The justifications used make zero sense. It's all about ideology, not practical governance.

Quote from: nathanm on March 02, 2012, 11:07:28 AM
As I mentioned in a previous thread where this came up, Texans pay more per capita in tax than we do, despite the lack of an income tax. The justifications used make zero sense. It's all about ideology, not practical governance.

I get tired of people ignoring the facts and ignoring past threads on this very subject.

Zero state income tax will be about as successful in bringing in new business as right to work has been. Maybe as successful as the lottery has been to increase per pupil education funding and probably as successful as our liquor laws are in controlling alcoholism and DWI's. Heck, maybe we'll get the stellar results we have with building more prisons to fight the proliferation of drugs.

Yeah, Oklahoma, we really got it going now. Everyone wants to locate business here.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 02, 2012, 11:46:54 AM
Yeah, Oklahoma, we really got it going now. Everyone wants to locate business here.

Private prisons seem to like us.

Quote from: nathanm on March 02, 2012, 11:07:28 AM
As I mentioned in a previous thread where this came up, Texans pay more per capita in tax than we do, despite the lack of an income tax. The justifications used make zero sense. It's all about ideology, not practical governance.

I don't care if it is all about ideology, it still works for me if its a first step in allowing say Tulsa to decide where, when how, on what to spend any tax dollars it raises on things it wants vrs us going to the capital to beg and plead for our portion back and asking them how we can be allowed to spend our money, and on what, etc.  

I would rather the state go ahead and strip itself of all kinds of taxing powers and authority "smaller state government" and let the local municipalites choose what taxes it wants, how much to tax, and where to spend that money.  

Why cant we Tulsan's build the roads we want with our money? Keep the state out of it. Why cant we build our own colleges (heck TCC is one of the largest universities in this region of the country) etc.   Not having the state do those things shouldn't mean WE can't do those things.  It doesn't mean that there has to be any more or less money for us to do those things, just means we don't have to filter our money through OKC (helping out their economy while draining ours).  Wipe out the entire state goverment for all I care, let us tax or "fee" as we want and use it how we will for... healthcare, roads, prisons, mental services, universities, museums, dams, etc. etc.   We could build all those institutions here with our money and help our economy and keep a better eye on efficiencies, etc.

I wish I could be as optimistic as Artist is in hoping for complete local control. I do believe that local is probably easier to manage than statewide or nationwide. Problem is there is no synergy to be obtained by walling yourself off from those who take advantage of your ineptness as the feds and the state has done to Tulsa. You simply become less relevant. In fact you're better off staying in the tournament and improving your game rather than hanging your head and playing ball with your little sister.

More importantly, the first thing the state would do is raise the tax on drivers licenses, car purchases and tags etc. Then they would enact new laws to constrain the smaller local kingdoms. They are the mob. They never go away. You don't eradicate the mob, you learn to minimize, marginalize, manipulate them.  

I am not very optimistic this will make more new businesses come to Oklahoma, because to replace the income tax, property tax will have to go up, so will other taxes and fees. At the end of the day sure we may cut some of the fat, and at the end of the day sure we might save a little money but its not going to be enough to offset the lose in revenue. Hell in the Governors Address she mentioned the very fact by talking about diversifying revenue streams.  That is political speak for shifting the taxes around, guess what citizens and businesses will make up that diversification and I don't necessarily mean new businesses.

Yep, this is a real good postive step for our state. Mary Fallin is doing an outstanding job, her bill is working it's way thru the state house. With no state income tax Oklahoma is ready to boom and became a powerhouse economy attracting jobs from other states. The state's income will grow as the economy expands and more people & companies move to Oklahoma, thus feeding a boom times.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 02, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Yep, this is a real good postive step for our state. Mary Fallin is doing an outstanding job, her bill is working it's way thru the state house. With no state income tax Oklahoma is ready to boom and became a powerhouse economy attracting jobs from other states. The state's income will grow as the economy expands and more people & companies move to Oklahoma, thus feeding a boom times.

You had me at "yep".

Quote from: godboko71 on March 02, 2012, 04:14:58 PM
I am not very optimistic this will make more new businesses come to Oklahoma, because to replace the income tax, property tax will have to go up, so will other taxes and fees. At the end of the day sure we may cut some of the fat, and at the end of the day sure we might save a little money but its not going to be enough to offset the lose in revenue. Hell in the Governors Address she mentioned the very fact by talking about diversifying revenue streams.  That is political speak for shifting the taxes around, guess what citizens and businesses will make up that diversification and I don't necessarily mean new businesses.

A growing economy will bring in more money NOT less money to the state and tax cuts work to attract business and jobs. It's simple economics 101.. Cutting state fat & waste is a good idea too, but Mary Fallin will have to plan for the times inbetween before her plan is running at full bore. Mary Fallin has Oklahoma running like a well oiled machine as it is, we have some the lowest unemployment rates in the nation and low gas taxes and a low cost of living. The state's unemployment has tumbled ever since she came to power.

I understand other taxes (more than likely property taxes) will go up. However, property taxes is a consumption based tax. If I don't want to pay as much I don't consume as much. It will be more of a shock for the older generations, but if phased in in a way that would soften the blow, it could work. From my experience in Texas, yes property taxes were about 3 times, roughly, what they are here. However, there was no problem finding affordable housing. I did notice that if you wanted to live in a good school district it was going to cost you. Property value were considerably higher in good school districts. I wonder if that is the side effect of letting communities spend money as they see fit. Of course not everything will improve for everyone, because for every entity that spends the money wisely, there will be some that don't. It creates competition, and punishes those that don't spend it wisely. It will create more responsive government.

A side note, the state still will collect 4.5% sales tax, so they would not be eliminating all funding.

The only downside I see is for small towns. I grew up in a small town, and I don't know for sure, but I would guess that the property taxes alone were not enough to support the school I went to. I believe (and I could be wrong) that the state somehow subsidized smaller schools. correct me if I'm wrong, but these are just 10 to 15 year old recolections from discussions with teachers at said school.

I never thought of ad valorem taxes as "consumption" taxes. What am I consuming? The more product you consume the more taxes you pay. But how do you consume a house? You may buy a house in a "sleeper" neighborhood where houses are small, well built and well located. Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing. And that happens to young, middle aged and senior citizens. Hell, the taxes rise even when the value of the house decreases! Suddenly, the state isn't bringing in enough to pay the bills and have cut most every consumption tax they can find to attract all those juicy low cost seeking, low labor seeking businesses...and they don't come. Then they'll come looking at things you have to have or cannot sell quickly. That means cars, licenses, property taxes etc. Bet on it.

Yep, you betcha'. Good plan if you don't look to far down the road or look too closely at states that have already swallowed the bait.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 02, 2012, 06:18:07 PM
I never thought of ad valorem taxes as "consumption" taxes. What am I consuming? The more product you consume the more taxes you pay. But how do you consume a house? You may buy a house in a "sleeper" neighborhood where houses are small, well built and well located. Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing. And that happens to young, middle aged and senior citizens. Hell, the taxes rise even when the value of the house decreases! Suddenly, the state isn't bringing in enough to pay the bills and have cut most every consumption tax they can find to attract all those juicy low cost seeking, low labor seeking businesses...and they don't come. Then they'll come looking at things you have to have or cannot sell quickly. That means cars, licenses, property taxes etc. Bet on it.

Yep, you betcha'. Good plan if you don't look to far down the road or look too closely at states that have already swallowed the bait.

You and I consume housing. While most will say it is a necessity, it does not mandate how much I spend. I have a choice on how much I spend.

What evidence do you have to assume that this path will lead to trouble. All evidence leads to the contrary. Look at the states that have no income taxes, they are some of the fastest growing in the county. I understand that Texas and Florida have other traits that lead to their desirability, but Wyoming and South Dakota. I'm not saying it is without question the best way, but there is something to it that is for certain. Whatever those states are doing seems to be working. I don't see why Oklahoma couldn't attain the growth that they have been experiencing.

Oklahoma has a lot working for it. It is the center of the county transportation wise, which I believe is why we are so heavily saturated with aerospace related jobs. Our climate is relatively comfortable. It is still extremely affordable to live here. the population (this is my opinion) still has a hard working pioneer attitude.

Quote from: godboko71 on March 02, 2012, 04:14:58 PM
I am not very optimistic this will make more new businesses come to Oklahoma, because to replace the income tax, property tax will have to go up, so will other taxes and fees. At the end of the day sure we may cut some of the fat, and at the end of the day sure we might save a little money but its not going to be enough to offset the lose in revenue. Hell in the Governors Address she mentioned the very fact by talking about diversifying revenue streams.  That is political speak for shifting the taxes around, guess what citizens and businesses will make up that diversification and I don't necessarily mean new businesses.

I know right? If we really need to cut fat then maybe we should sell the governor's mansion or the limo or the capitol building.

But this isn't about living lean, cutting government waste or brinning more jobs...its about pandering to sauercraut

Nah, housing is not a consumable. It is taxed regardless of its value and not always proportionate to its size. I eat candy it is consumed and changed in the process. I live in a house and it is still a house when I leave. I buy a refrigerator and use it up and replace it. I use a house and may or may not use it up. Big differences to me.

In another thread I looked up those states that have zero income tax. The evidence is all over the internet. Sauer knows this. They are not the fastest growing in the country. There are seven. Texas was doing well and I believe the best one doing well was Maine. They are the outliers. Not too comparable with OK. The rest were experiencing some of the worst unemployment of the country. None of them showed employment above twenty-fifth in rankings. You can hardly grow fast when you can't keep your population employed.

Oklahoma does have a lot going for it in transportation, geography and weather. And our population is hard working, yet overweight and nicotine addicted. But that is balanced off with monolithic anti-progressive attitudes on politics, education, law, morality, labor and environment. We passed Right to Work a decade ago and it still isn't producing as advertised. We eliminated the estate tax which did nothing but reduce tax revenues. We made a compact with the tribes for gambling and instituted a lottery and again, no net gain in growth and promises for education unkept. We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion. These attitudes don't do much to attract high paying industry. They attract low ballers that are looking for cheap labor, low regulation and low taxes. That puts us in competition with China, Mexico and Viet Nam and still, we can't seem to be low rent enough.

If zero income tax is the next big solution to our myopia then I'm a daisy. I love my home state but I am not blind and chauvinist.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 02, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion.

Gee, it sounds like the solution is easy.  Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.  Problem solved.  Who would have thought it was so simple?

Quote from: AquaMan on March 02, 2012, 06:18:07 PM
I Through no action other than having made a good choice the neighborhood increases in value, your property taxes increase and you haven't consumed any thing.

But..... I thought that increasing property values and the associated taxes were supposed to be a good thing.  Everyone wants their property value to go up.

;D

Well, except me.  I don't plan to sell.  Even if I did, the replacement value of what I have would go up to match or exceed any selling price unless I stepped down in value/quality.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 02, 2012, 04:17:11 PM
Yep, this is a real good postive step for our state. Mary Fallin is doing an outstanding job, her bill is working it's way thru the state house. With no state income tax Oklahoma is ready to boom and became a powerhouse economy attracting jobs from other states. The state's income will grow as the economy expands and more people & companies move to Oklahoma, thus feeding a boom times.

You and shadows rooming together?  Oh wait, shadows actually lives here.  Nevermind.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 02, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
Nah, housing is not a consumable. It is taxed regardless of its value and not always proportionate to its size. I eat candy it is consumed and changed in the process. I live in a house and it is still a house when I leave. I buy a refrigerator and use it up and replace it. I use a house and may or may not use it up. Big differences to me.

In another thread I looked up those states that have zero income tax. The evidence is all over the internet. Sauer knows this. They are not the fastest growing in the country. There are seven. Texas was doing well and I believe the best one doing well was Maine. They are the outliers. Not too comparable with OK. The rest were experiencing some of the worst unemployment of the country. None of them showed employment above twenty-fifth in rankings. You can hardly grow fast when you can't keep your population employed.

Oklahoma does have a lot going for it in transportation, geography and weather. And our population is hard working, yet overweight and nicotine addicted. But that is balanced off with monolithic anti-progressive attitudes on politics, education, law, morality, labor and environment. We passed Right to Work a decade ago and it still isn't producing as advertised. We eliminated the estate tax which did nothing but reduce tax revenues. We made a compact with the tribes for gambling and instituted a lottery and again, no net gain in growth and promises for education unkept. We continue to think the biggest problems we face are due to guns (not enough and not visible enough), Democrats, liberals, gays, communism, unions and abortion. These attitudes don't do much to attract high paying industry. They attract low ballers that are looking for cheap labor, low regulation and low taxes. That puts us in competition with China, Mexico and Viet Nam and still, we can't seem to be low rent enough.

If zero income tax is the next big solution to our myopia then I'm a daisy. I love my home state but I am not blind and chauvinist.

I'm not so sure that the absense of a state income tax has much to do with unemployment right now. Texas was doing well, but seemed to do a lot of slipping during the recession. My own state doesn't have a state income tax and we have a very low unemployment rate. In fact, we have a shortage of workers.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 02, 2012, 09:22:16 PM
Gee, it sounds like the solution is easy.  Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.  Problem solved.  Who would have thought it was so simple?

Who? Our current state legislators!

Even if all their problems were solved with their legislation they would continue to refine them ad infinitum. Because that is easier than solving problems that they don't even understand. Economics, science etc. Its not the accuracy of their shooting that's harming the state, its the definition of their targets.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 02, 2012, 09:33:03 PM
But..... I thought that increasing property values and the associated taxes were supposed to be a good thing.  Everyone wants their property value to go up.

;D

Well, except me.  I don't plan to sell.  Even if I did, the replacement value of what I have would go up to match or exceed any selling price unless I stepped down in value/quality.

Another example of unintended consequences is making smart decisions on real estate choices 30 years ago.  I have resigned myself to stepping down. Well, the bank, Home Depot and the city appraiser are influencing me towards that decision.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 09:56:03 AM
Who? Our current state legislators!

Even if all their problems were solved with their legislation they would continue to refine them ad infinitum. Because that is easier than solving problems that they don't even understand. Economics, science etc. Its not the accuracy of their shooting that's harming the state, its the definition of their targets.

Therefore, the required change in targets: Outlaw guns, the Republican party, conservatives, heterosexuals, embrace communism, unions and abortion.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 09:59:27 AM
Another example of unintended consequences is making smart decisions on real estate choices 30 years ago.  I have resigned myself to stepping down. Well, the bank, Home Depot and the city appraiser are influencing me towards that decision.

Home Depot? Do they want your property or is it just becoming too expensive to maintain?

Edit: darn keyboard skipped an "o" in too.   :D

Quote from: Jammie on March 03, 2012, 06:15:55 AM
I'm not so sure that the absense of a state income tax has much to do with unemployment right now. Texas was doing well, but seemed to do a lot of slipping during the recession. My own state doesn't have a state income tax and we have a very low unemployment rate. In fact, we have a shortage of workers.

Sauer thinks there is a relationship and he has no basis for that. Neither do the legislators. This is a philosophical stand that conservatives find attractive and instinctually logical. It may work, it may be genius but right now there is no basis for doing it during a time when budgets are already constrained.

Texas is a state with at least 5 large metropolitan cities (one of them the third largest in the country), huge population, Gulf ports, a border with another country, and the headquarters for major industries like oil and technology. Not a comparable for OK.

What state are you in? And what kind of employment? The only two zero income tax states I found with relatively low unemployment were Texas and Maine. Maine was #9 iirc. I'll check the thread that Sauer started awhile back pimping this issue.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2012, 10:11:52 AM
Home Depot? Do they want your property or is it just becoming to expensive to maintain?

The latter.

Its time for the home to be updated. Apparently my 80's-90's decorating is no longer popular. Not enough marble, granite, laminate floors and faux finishes!

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 10:14:02 AM
What state are you in?

Most of us live in the State of Confusion.

;D

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 10:16:38 AM
The latter.

Its time for the home to be updated. Apparently my 80's-90's decorating is no longer popular. Not enough marble, granite, laminate floors and faux finishes!

Mrs. Aquaman doesn't like it?  Otherwise, why change it unless you plan to sell it anyway.  If you are planning to sell anyway, good luck.  There has to be something corresponding to: a paint job will (usually) help sell an airplane but you won't get your money back on avionics.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 03, 2012, 10:21:16 AM
Mrs. Aquaman doesn't like it?  Otherwise, why change it unless you plan to sell it anyway.  If you are planning to sell anyway, good luck.  There has to be something corresponding to: a paint job will (usually) help sell an airplane but you won't get your money back on avionics.

Good advice. Thanks. We may be selling this year if I can't get the income to match the rise in the cost of living over here so I'm preparing for that.

Quote from: Jammie on March 03, 2012, 06:15:55 AM
I'm not so sure that the absense of a state income tax has much to do with unemployment right now. Texas was doing well, but seemed to do a lot of slipping during the recession. My own state doesn't have a state income tax and we have a very low unemployment rate. In fact, we have a shortage of workers.

Jammie, here is a post I made with research from a previous thread on this subject. I mistakenly remembered Maine, it was actually New Hampshire. Doesn't matter, damn Yankees both of them!


   
   
Re: Fallin cuts top tax rate, says state revenue growth is enough.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2012, 05:19:17 pm »
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 18, 2012, 03:40:04 pm
Don't forget Texas is not the only state with no income tax, South Dakota, Wyoming, FL, Nevada, Washington and a few others have no income tax and they are all doing well, soon Oklahoma may joint the list of no-income tax states. I don't know what the prop taxes rates are in other states with no income tax. Most states do not tax food either.

Here are two of those states that have no income tax that you think are doing well:

Nevada....12.9% unemployment rate ....#51 ranking...highest unemployment in the nation
Florida....9.9% unemployment rate....#45 ranking
In fact only 2 of the states without income tax (you didn't mention Tennessee #35, Alaska #21, New Hampshire #4) are in the top half of the states rankings of unemployment. Texas is at #25. This according to the Bureau of Labor statistics.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 10:36:39 AM
Jammie, here is a post I made with research from a previous thread on this subject. I mistakenly remembered Maine, it was actually New Hampshire. Doesn't matter, damn Yankees both of them!


   
   
Re: Fallin cuts top tax rate, says state revenue growth is enough.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2012, 05:19:17 pm »
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 18, 2012, 03:40:04 pm
Don't forget Texas is not the only state with no income tax, South Dakota, Wyoming, FL, Nevada, Washington and a few others have no income tax and they are all doing well, soon Oklahoma may joint the list of no-income tax states. I don't know what the prop taxes rates are in other states with no income tax. Most states do not tax food either.

Here are two of those states that have no income tax that you think are doing well:

Nevada....12.9% unemployment rate ....#51 ranking...highest unemployment in the nation
Florida....9.9% unemployment rate....#45 ranking
In fact only 2 of the states without income tax (you didn't mention Tennessee #35, Alaska #21, New Hampshire #4) are in the top half of the states rankings of unemployment. Texas is at #25. This according to the Bureau of Labor statistics.

Not so fast, Nevada has a one industry economy, gambling/tourists- when people can't afford to vacation because of Obama's economy  and Obama's high gas prices it hurts Nevada -income tax or not. Tennessee has no income tax BUT they do tax Intrest & investment income at 6% so Tennessee chokes investments. Let's look at South Dakota with no income tax and low unemployment and cheap cost of living, that state is doing good with one of the lowest unemployment rates around. Florida has no income tax but the make up of the state is retired people and the major industry is tourism, and like in Nevada when the economy is bad people can't afford a vacation in Florida and that hurts hotels, and it ripples thru the state's economy. Then you can look at the economy of high taxed states like Michigan, Ohio, and California, things are very grim there. Michigan's housing is really down big time as is the case in all high taxed states.

If Mary Fallin can rid Oklahoma of a income tax once & for all, Oklahoma will be sitting pretty and drawing in jobs from neighboring states. Things will really boom and take off.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:29:05 PM
Not so fast, Nevada has a one industry economy, gambling/tourists- when people can't afford to vacation because of Obama's economy  and Obama's high gas prices it hurts Nevada -income tax or not. Tennessee has no income tax BUT they do tax Intrest & investment income at 6% so Tennessee chokes investments. Let's look at South Dakota with no income tax and low unemployment and cheap cost of living, that state is doing good with one of the lowest unemployment rates around. Florida has no income tax but the make up of the state is retired people and the major industry is tourism, and like in Nevada when the economy is bad people can't afford a vacation in Florida and that hurts hotels, and it ripples thru the state's economy. Then you can look at the economy of high taxed states like Michigan, Ohio, and California, things are very grim there. Michigan's housing is really down big time as is the case in all high taxed states.

South Dakota sure is booming. They have added a whopping 120k people over the last 50 years. Slow growth Oklahoma has added more than 1.4 million people in that period.

Try and pick another state please

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:39:48 PM
If Mary Fallin can rid Oklahoma of a income tax once & for all, Oklahoma will be sitting pretty and drawing in jobs from neighboring states. Things will really boom and take off.

Suuuure it will.  Once again, you've proven your economic degree was obtained from a confection prize.

We can't eliminate income taxes. The have nots would go on suicide watch.

Quote from: guido911 on March 05, 2012, 06:16:18 PM
We can't eliminate income taxes. The have nots would go on suicide watch.

I don't mind eliminating income tax, but people have to know it will be made up somewhere.  To say that eliminating the income tax will make Oklahoma more attractive as a business-oriented state is wrong.  We've proven that Texas has a higher tax burden (with no state income tax) than Oklahoma does (with state income tax).  That means it will be made up somewhere else.  Likely property/ad valorem taxes.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:29:05 PM
Not so fast, Nevada has a one industry economy, gambling/tourists- when people can't afford to vacation because of Obama's economy  and Obama's high gas prices it hurts Nevada -income tax or not. Tennessee has no income tax BUT they do tax Intrest & investment income at 6% so Tennessee chokes investments. Let's look at South Dakota with no income tax and low unemployment and cheap cost of living, that state is doing good with one of the lowest unemployment rates around. Florida has no income tax but the make up of the state is retired people and the major industry is tourism, and like in Nevada when the economy is bad people can't afford a vacation in Florida and that hurts hotels, and it ripples thru the state's economy. Then you can look at the economy of high taxed states like Michigan, Ohio, and California, things are very grim there. Michigan's housing is really down big time as is the case in all high taxed states.

My, aren't we full of ifs, buts and jumping to conclusions.

I used the Bureau of Labor statistics. Perhaps you could share where you got your fantasies? Its like this...you have a conclusion (that zero taxes creates good state economies while all other taxes, and of course Obama, causes any bad economies) and you're willing to make up all kinds of excuses and rationalizations to prove that conclusion. That's what politics do to a person.

Make note that gambling is like alcohol consumption, it grows during bad times because people need a good distraction and a strong drink. It grows in good times because people want to celebrate and have a strong drink. Your argument is lacking for other reasons. Vegas draws from all over the world which is why people fly there instead of drive and if your argument doesn't hold for states that are single industry then you should stop right there. Oklahoma is oil.

Really, I don't need to go any further. Your analysis is sophomoric and filled with conjecture. Try again when you can look up stuff.

Ok, doofus. I did some simple 2 minute research and found this which will give you some room to back out but will refute even more of your fantasies.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/nostatetax.htm

It says that even though population growth is rising above average in the states without income tax, that the states themselves have found other ways to replace that revenue. Even though their population is growing, and maybe because it is growing, I repeat, ONLY TWO OF THE STATES WITHOUT INCOME TAX ARE IN THE TOP TWENTY FIVE OF THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATES (South Dakota and New Hampshire). The rest are sucking in employment but of course, that is Obama's fault so you're covered big guy.

Also, you note that Tennessee is choking off its economy because it taxes interest and investment income YET, the best performing state economy of the zero tax states, NUMBER 4, was New Hampshire AND THEY TAX INTEREST AND INVESTMENT INCOME. Imagine that. Facts.

Not that I want to participate in this conversation, but I'm surprised no one mentioned today's blog from OK Policy Institute.

http://okpolicy.org/blog/taxes/betting-the-farm-ending-the-income-tax-creates-huge-risks-for-rural-oklahoma/

Quote from: jne on March 05, 2012, 07:30:04 PM
Not that I want to participate in this conversation, but I'm surprised no one mentioned today's blog from OK Policy Institute.

http://okpolicy.org/blog/taxes/betting-the-farm-ending-the-income-tax-creates-huge-risks-for-rural-oklahoma/

  The fascinating thing is, that it's likely to be those rural voters who will be most adamantly for eliminating the income tax. 

  I was in a small rural town a while back and was struck at how conservative the people were.  I was there to do some antiquing, hunting for Art Deco stuff, and every time I bought something the person ringing me up would say "and now for the governments take" or something like that, in a snarky voice.  They were going to make a point of reminding you every time you bought something of how bad taxes were. And would overhear them talking about how horrible government and taxes were.  And I kept thinking, I wonder if this little town could pay for the roads that got me waaaay out here to their little town from Tulsa?  Or even the infrastructure they had in the town without state or federal help?  They probably don't like "big cities" either.  But it's fine with me, cut state taxes and let them cut their noses off to spite their faces if they will.   I am still for less state intervention and state government.

Yes, all the states who do not have income tax do have higher property taxes, and I agree that that may be a likelihood here.  But A.  That tax is can be controlled locally, aka here in Tulsa and not OKC.  B.  It doesn't mean that the property tax has to be AS high as in some of those other states. The over all tax burden doesn't HAVE to be higher than what we have now. 

Give the small towners a break. From their point of view it seems that they get very little from the state. Yes they build a road once every 10 years. Plus most are from a generation of self-sustainers. It's what they know.

Another poster mentioned some website touting how this would hurt farmers. It mentioned that they would no longer get the tax credits/deductions anymore. Uh, they won't be paying any income taxes. Did I miss something. The arguments were a little week in my opinion. I don't think anyone here thinks that government (state or local) will just not need as much money as it used to. This change would just change the organizational structure. Possibly make it more local. Which is a good thing.

Small town schools will suffer the most from dropping the state income tax and making tax collections more localized. They don't have the resources on their own to support a school system in every single little town. Some don't as it is and have been shutting down already. Of course, that's not to say that I think there are some gigantic efficiency's that need to be made. This idea would be terrible for one of my relatives employers, but district consolidation in rural areas I think has to happen. Each district as it is has a superintendent (duh). My old district services give or take no more than 200 students (in the whole district, shocking I know). The budget for the sup costs the district roughly 10% of their budget. That is insane! In that county in particular there are three other districts with high paid administrators that only service roughly 800 students. In the whole county. Could one administrator not service them all. Heck they could even keep all the schools open, to keep transportation costs low. Sharing specialty teachers would give added value. Hell, let them keep independent in sports as well. I just think it is ridiculous that they have this overwhelming administrative costs at such a small school.

Ok, rant over.

I just can't wait for more "logical" local control over taxes that are going to be primarily property based. The sales tax will still be collected by the state and redistributed back to the city. New licensing fees will proliferate and old ones escalate and of course we can expect stronger enforcement efforts. We may need to set up surprise dog license inspections at the local doggie parks!

You have to have more faith in the system than locally elected officials have given me to feel good about that. Ever heard of a property tax going down when the value of the property declines unless you protested them? Doesn't happen often unless the neighborhood has just declined to the extent that landlords are the predominant owners.

But hey, wealthy folks will pay less income tax and of course reinvest those savings into the state, right? New businesses will flood into our state looking for our well educated, well adjusted, healthy labor force that they keep reading about in the rankings on the internet. Its all good.

"The sales tax will still be collected by the state and redistributed back to the city."


See now, imo that can't continue to fly.  The conservative mantra is "as little government as possible, and what government there is should be as local as possible".   So as part of the "lessening of taxes" at the state level, there should be an equal amount of "lessening of government" at the state level.  It should be part and parcel of the further Republican/conservative shrinking government, or getting rid of governmet intrusion, goal that they don't continue to have all that government there collecting those taxes.  We have to push the conservatives to be accountable to and eventually fulfill all their ideals.  Thats what they campaigned on and promised, and what they were voted into office to do.   THEN, IF the citizens at the local level decide to tax themselves, by whatever means they choose, they should also be the ones responsible for seeing that it is collected and spent wisely on the projects they want.  

Why should we be paying for jobs in OKC (those "middle men" who collect and redistribute our tax dollars) when we can be paying for those jobs to be in Tulsa, if we so choose?

The same reason a dog licks his balls, because they can.

I think the conservative legislators in OKC are already at their limits Artist. They wouldn't know how to effect a change to local taxation, local collections and local budgets. Tulsa may not have that expertise either. If held to their convictions they would soon realize that their "phoney baloney" jobs would no longer be funded by the cities. Strengthening county governments might also be a solution though certainly no more popular.

As far as I know every state with high taxes, regulations, has a poor economy and high unemployment. I grew up in Michigan a state controled by democrats for decades, the prop. taxes in the (Warren Michigan) Centerline school district are $3,000.00 for a $100,000 house. Michigan has cities like Detroit & Grand Rapids with a city income tax- That's  on top of the state income tax. Michigan is bleeding away jobs, and residents. If democrat policys worked, why then does Michigan have no jobs and 15% unemployment? The democrats ran that state. In Ohio just about every city in that state  has a city income tax on top of the state income tax, in Columbus, Ohio where I lived we had a 2% city income tax, and it gets better some school districts in Ohio have a school income tax like Canel Winchester & Renyoldsburg suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. If you lived in Canel Winchester, Ohio you'd have to pay & file taxes for the federal gov 't, state gov't, the city gov't and the school district. Any wonder the economy is poor? I don't know of any high taxed state that is booming with a strong economy and lots of jobs. Mary Fallin is on the right path for a booming and strong Oklahoma.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 06, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
As far as I know

You can stop there.  Your argument is invalid.

 :D  ;D Townie that's twice in this thread that you've made me smile. The other was "We can't even choose the right loser". Classic stuff.

Sauer, I used to think people from the upper midwest and northeast were smarter than us Okies. I want to thank you and my brother-in-law for dispelling that.

Quote from: AquaMan on March 06, 2012, 06:59:59 PM
:D  ;D Townie that's twice in this thread that you've made me smile. The other was "We can't even choose the right loser". Classic stuff.

Sauer, I used to think people from the upper midwest and northeast were smarter than us Okies. I want to thank you and my brother-in-law for dispelling that.

There are some stupid people in the world but, politics aside, a formal education is frequently mistaken for intelligence.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 02, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
A growing economy will bring in more money NOT less money to the state and tax cuts work to attract business and jobs. It's simple economics 101.. Cutting state fat & waste is a good idea too, but Mary Fallin will have to plan for the times inbetween before her plan is running at full bore. Mary Fallin has Oklahoma running like a well oiled machine as it is, we have some the lowest unemployment rates in the nation and low gas taxes and a low cost of living. The state's unemployment has tumbled ever since she came to power.

You really haven't learned anything in the last 30 years, have you?

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 05, 2012, 04:29:05 PM
Not so fast, Nevada has a one industry economy, gambling/tourists- when people can't afford to vacation because of Obama's economy  and Obama's high gas prices it hurts Nevada -income tax or not. Tennessee has no income tax BUT they do tax Intrest & investment income at 6% so Tennessee chokes investments. Let's look at South Dakota with no income tax and low unemployment and cheap cost of living, that state is doing good with one of the lowest unemployment rates around. Florida has no income tax but the make up of the state is retired people and the major industry is tourism, and like in Nevada when the economy is bad people can't afford a vacation in Florida and that hurts hotels, and it ripples thru the state's economy. Then you can look at the economy of high taxed states like Michigan, Ohio, and California, things are very grim there. Michigan's housing is really down big time as is the case in all high taxed states.

Always an excuse of some sort.  Probably the attitude that goes with no income tax that causes lots of other problems.  Regressive thought process.

Quote from: TheArtist on March 06, 2012, 07:35:44 AM
 
Yes, all the states who do not have income tax do have higher property taxes, and I agree that that may be a likelihood here.  But A.  That tax is can be controlled locally, aka here in Tulsa and not OKC.  B.  It doesn't mean that the property tax has to be AS high as in some of those other states. The over all tax burden doesn't HAVE to be higher than what we have now. 

Maybe not total burden higher, but the portion born by property owners would be much higher.  About 1/3 of our state budget - $2.4 billion is from income tax.  That will have to be made up somewhere.  And since on average, only about 65% of people own their homes, that means homeowners will bear the brunt of the increase.  So 1/3 less people would be paying the extra 1/3 of the state budget.

And if we think roads are bad NOW, just wait until we cut 1/3 from the state income.

But reality just doesn't intrude into Oklahoma thought very much.  Look who won the primary.  Gotta be proud!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2012, 10:00:52 PM
And since on average, only about 65% of people own their homes, that means homeowners will bear the brunt of the increase.  So 1/3 less people would be paying the extra 1/3 of the state budget.

If I owned rental property, the property tax would be part of the rental rate.  It's a good thing for renters that I don't own rental property or their rates would go up.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 06, 2012, 10:00:52 PM
Maybe not total burden higher, but the portion born by property owners would be much higher.  About 1/3 of our state budget - $2.4 billion is from income tax. 

Trickles down.  The burden would land on the renter with far more impact.

I did own rental property for years.  I had condos off 27th.  Each year we adjusted rental prices based on taxes and any changes in maintenance dues.  That's what everyone who rents property does.  The purpose of renting property is to make a profit, and an increase in taxes is the most justified reason for increasing rent.  Your renters can't argue with you about it, because you can show them the increase.  

That's not to say that a few of them will try to argue with you, and call you "unfair."  We have a country filled with those people and that population in growing.  We were successful in selecting good renters, and most shared in our understanding of how property tax effects rental rates.

Quote from: Gaspar on March 07, 2012, 07:26:14 AM
That's not to say that a few of them will try to argue with you, and call you "unfair."  We have a country filled with those people and that population in growing.  

The anti-tax people?  That's what I hear.

Okla. House ponders Fallin income tax plan

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Okla-House-ponders-Fallin-income-tax-plan/FoS_QtFAmkWNYD5Tuq4_yA.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Okla-House-ponders-Fallin-income-tax-plan/FoS_QtFAmkWNYD5Tuq4_yA.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Oklahoma House is considering Gov. Mary Fallin's proposal to reduce the state's income tax and help pay for it by eliminating dozens of tax credits, deductions and exemptions.

House Speaker Kris Steele introduced the bill in the House on Wednesday, but agreed to delay debate on the measure after concerns were raised over the fiscal impact of several amendments to the bill. Debate was expected to resume Wednesday afternoon.

Support in the Legislature appears to be eroding for several of the tax exemptions and deductions that have been suggested as a way to offset the revenue lost by reducing the income tax. Retirees have started lobbying lawmakers to maintain tax exemptions for Social Security benefits and other retirement income.

Quote from: Townsend on March 14, 2012, 02:08:19 PM
Okla. House ponders Fallin income tax plan

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Okla-House-ponders-Fallin-income-tax-plan/FoS_QtFAmkWNYD5Tuq4_yA.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/Okla-House-ponders-Fallin-income-tax-plan/FoS_QtFAmkWNYD5Tuq4_yA.cspx?rss=2448&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

The statement in that last sentence may not bode well for the bill in its current form.

Say what ya want but the facts speak loud and clear- Oklahoma's unemployment rate has just dropped another notch with Mary Fallin running the ship. If we can get thru her tax plans many out-of-state companies will move into Oklahoma and the economy here will take off. Oklahoma is on the right track. :)

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 14, 2012, 02:54:12 PM
Say what ya want but the facts speak loud and clear- Oklahoma's unemployment rate has just dropped another notch with Mary Fallin running the ship. If we can get thru her tax plans many out-of-state companies will move into Oklahoma and the economy here will take off. Oklahoma is on the right track. :)

OK, then every time the unemployment rate nationally drops, you have give it up to our current CiC.  No?  Didn't think you would.

Fallin will likely bankrupt this state.

Quote from: Hoss on March 14, 2012, 02:56:01 PM

Fallin will likely bankrupt this state.

I'm hoping someone will stop her from doing that.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 14, 2012, 02:54:12 PM
Oklahoma is on the right track.

What, the track to Blake's new concert venue? I've always wanted to live in an abandoned industrial site.

Quote from: Townsend on March 14, 2012, 02:57:36 PM
I'm hoping someone will stop her from doing that.

If the trade out between closing out tax breaks and eliminating income taxes truly balances, that's really an ideal situation.  It becomes a much fairer system of taxation with far fewer gimmicks which allow for creative ways to avoid paying taxes.  That's the main problem with the Federal tax code is it's entirely too complicated due to far too many breaks and rates.

I've not read far enough into this plan to see if it really does balance.  Given the failures I've seen from fiscal conservatives the last 10 years or so, I'm highly skeptical.

Aside from that, Sauer, we could take away all taxes in Oklahoma, but companies still won't move to a state where we pass incredibly stupid "moral" laws which would make even Queen Victoria blush at their chaste intentions.

Quote from: Conan71 on March 14, 2012, 03:21:13 PM
If the trade out between closing out tax breaks  

I'd be shocked as shocked could be.

Quotebut companies still won't move to a state where we pass incredibly stupid "moral" laws which would make even Queen Victoria blush at their chaste intentions.

Oy, no joke.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 14, 2012, 02:54:12 PM
Say what ya want but the facts speak loud and clear- Oklahoma's unemployment rate has just dropped another notch with Mary Fallin running the ship. If we can get thru her tax plans many out-of-state companies will move into Oklahoma and the economy here will take off. Oklahoma is on the right track. :)

Amazing how you come up with all this stuff, with all the reality around to show otherwise.

We are trying to become Mississippi or Alabama.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 14, 2012, 06:33:15 PM

Amazing how you come up with all this stuff, with all the reality around to show otherwise.

We are trying to become Mississippi or Alabama.

Sure, raise taxes and see the companies (and residents) flee the state- and then state will have to raise taxes even more to make up for the loss of jobs, people  and business, forcing more companies and residents to flee and what you have is a democrat cycle of economic collapse, the state will have to keep raising more & more taxes to keep things going and pay the bills. Oklahoma will become like another Michigan or Ohio bleeding jobs and residents. Cutting taxes brings in more money to the state, attracting business, residents and jobs growing the economy and making more money for the state and you have a growing economy. Raising taxes does not make a booming economy, it makes an recession. No state with high taxes has a booming strong economy. Mary Fallin Rockz. She's making all the right moves IMO.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 17, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
Sure, raise taxes and see the companies (and residents) flee the state- and then state will have to raise taxes even more to make up for the loss of jobs, people  and business, forcing more companies and residents to flee and what you have is a democrat cycle of economic collapse, the state will have to keep raising more & more taxes to keep things going and pay the bills. Oklahoma will become like another Michigan or Ohio bleeding jobs and residents. Cutting taxes brings in more money to the state, attracting business, residents and jobs growing the economy and making more money for the state and you have a growing economy. Raising taxes does not make a booming economy, it makes an recession. No state with high taxes has a booming strong economy. Mary Fallin Rockz. She's making all the right moves IMO.

Wow.  You just cannot be for real.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 17, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
Oklahoma will become like another Michigan or Ohio bleeding jobs and residents.

You do realize that since 1990 Ohio has elected 5 governors, 4 of whom have been Republican? Accepting your premise for the sake of argument, they had 16 years straight in the governor's mansion and still failed to turn the state around by whatever metric you're using. Why would Republican policies do better in Oklahoma?

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 17, 2012, 02:51:37 PM
No state with high taxes has a booming strong economy.

If only it was that simple.

A total of 41 states impose income taxes. New Hampshire and Tennessee apply it only to income from interest and dividends. Seven states (Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming) do not tax personal income. Of the 41 with a broad-based income tax, 35 base the taxes on federal returns, typically taking a portion of what you pay the IRS or using your federal adjusted gross income or taxable income as the starting point.

All states except Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon, collect sales taxes. Delaware collects a Gross Receipts Tax (GRT) which is a business and gross receipts tax that can total 2.07%. Some have a single rate throughout the state though most permit local city and county additions to the base tax rate. Those states with a single rate include Connecticut, District of Columbia, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Rhode Island, and West Virginia.

States with the highest sales tax are: California (7.25%), Indiana (7%), Mississippi (7%), New Jersey (7%), Rhode Island (7%), Tennessee (7%), Minnesota (6.875%), Nevada (6.85%), Arizona (6.6%), Washington (6.5%), Kansas (6.3%), Texas and Illinois (6.25%).

Most states exempt prescription drugs from sales taxes. Some also exempt food and clothing purchases and a few also exempt non-prescription drugs.

Under federal law, taxpayers may be required to include a portion of their Social Security benefits in their taxable adjusted gross income (AGI). Most states begin the calculation of state personal income tax liability with federal AGI, or federal taxable income. In those states, the portion of Social Security benefits subject to personal income tax is subject to state personal income tax unless state law allows taxpayers to subtract the federally taxed portion of their benefits from their federal AGI in the computation of their state AGI.

Many states exclude Social Security retirement benefits from state income taxes. The District of Columbia and 27 states with income taxes provide a full exclusion for Social Security benefits — Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Virginia and Wisconsin.

The remaining 14 states with broad-based income taxes tax Social Security to some extent:
■Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont and West Virginia tax Social Security income to the extent it is taxed by the federal government.
■Connecticut, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri and Montana tax Social Security income above an income floor. Iowa will gradually phase out its Social Security tax levy from 2008 through 2014. Missouri will phase out its Social Security tax levy by 2010. Kansas residents can exclude Social Security income if their adjusted gross income is less than $75,000.
■Colorado and West Virginia provide a general retirement income exclusion or credit that may result in the exclusion from taxation of part or all of Social Security benefits, or a credit against taxes otherwise due on Ssocial Security benefits.

http://www.retirementliving.com/taxes-by-state

Please explain which taxes and which states you believe back up your argument?

Sauer, our tax rates don't matter when potential new employers take a look at all the stupid moralist laws our legislature keeps passing or trying to pass. 

Quote from: Conan71 on March 18, 2012, 12:27:59 PM
Sauer, our tax rates don't matter when potential new employers take a look at all the stupid moralist laws our legislature keeps passing or trying to pass. 

Threadwinner.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 14, 2012, 02:54:12 PM
Say what ya want but the facts speak loud and clear- Oklahoma's unemployment rate has just dropped another notch with Mary Fallin running the ship. If we can get thru her tax plans many out-of-state companies will move into Oklahoma and the economy here will take off. Oklahoma is on the right track. :)

Why would you think that Mary Fallin had anything to do with reducing the unemployment rate?  It's an article of faith among Republicans that the market controls such things, not the government.  Besides, a simple correlation doesn't necessarily imply that one event was the cause of another.  Over the same time span, the Euro plummeted, Wall Street rebounded, and Rick Santorum rose in the polls.  It would be equally valid to suppose that Fallin was responsible for those events, too.

Quote from: Conan71 on March 18, 2012, 12:27:59 PM
Sauer, our tax rates don't matter when potential new employers take a look at all the stupid moralist laws our legislature keeps passing or trying to pass. 

The same can be said for people looking for work as well. Oklahoma is not very high on my list of where I'm looking for work, as well as the fact that jobs in my field are slim there, and it has nothing to do with taxes.

Quote from: nathanm on March 17, 2012, 04:34:44 PM
You do realize that since 1990 Ohio has elected 5 governors, 4 of whom have been Republican? Accepting your premise for the sake of argument, they had 16 years straight in the governor's mansion and still failed to turn the state around by whatever metric you're using. Why would Republican policies do better in Oklahoma?

Ohio went from a moderate low tax state in 1990 to a high tax state by 2000. Many of the republican gov's were all RINO's like  George Vinovitch and his famous "sin tax" on soft drinks and he had a hissy fit when it was thrown out by the voters. He threatened to bring back the "sin tax" on soft drinks but never did.. Ohio has city income taxes and in some school districts there is also a school income tax. George Vinovitch was all RINO he never met a tax he didn't like. High taxes no matter who makes them (repuiblicans or democrats) hurt the economy.. Ohio passed a sales tax for  companies who use temp workers in the 1990's. Jobs, residents, and companies are bleeding out of Ohio... As Mary Fallin cuts taxes our economy will grow and actually bring in more money to the state from economic expantion.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 19, 2012, 03:45:49 PM
Ohio went from a moderate low tax state in 1990 to a high tax state by 2000. Many of the republican gov's were all RINO's like  George Vinovitch and his famous "sin tax" on soft drinks and he had a hissy fit when it was thrown out by the voters. He threatened to bring back the "sin tax" on soft drinks but never did.. Ohio has city income taxes and in some school districts there is also a school income tax. George Vinovitch was all RINO he never met a tax he didn't like. High taxes no matter who makes them (repuiblicans or democrats) hurt the economy.. Ohio passed a sales tax for  companies who use temp workers in the 1990's. Jobs, residents, and companies are bleeding out of Ohio... As Mary Fallin cuts taxes our economy will grow and actually bring in more money to the state from economic expantion.

Isn't Ohio also heavily unionized?

We have quite a few clients in Ohio, and as a part of our services we are required to set up, manage and support the tax tables and reporting in their software.  Out of all 50 (57 for some) states that we do business in, Ohio is the worst.  

They feature layer upon layer of taxes that actually requires some custom workflow just to get an accounting package to report it all correctly.  They have sales & use taxes and each city and district has a different layer and way to calculate it.  If you are a service company that provides repair services and operates service vehicles that cover more than one city, you need to have a full time person on staff just to manage your taxes.  You may need to file multiple forms a day per employee if your techs provide product and installation in multiple cities, or districts.

For the most part, it serves as a barrior to entry for small startup companies that can't afford the accounting staff or a high-dollar accounting software platform, or both.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 19, 2012, 03:45:49 PM
Ohio went from a moderate low tax state in 1990 to a high tax state by 2000. Many of the republican gov's were all RINO's like  George Vinovitch and his famous "sin tax" on soft drinks and he had a hissy fit when it was thrown out by the voters. He threatened to bring back the "sin tax" on soft drinks but never did.. Ohio has city income taxes and in some school districts there is also a school income tax. George Vinovitch was all RINO he never met a tax he didn't like. High taxes no matter who makes them (repuiblicans or democrats) hurt the economy.. Ohio passed a sales tax for  companies who use temp workers in the 1990's. Jobs, residents, and companies are bleeding out of Ohio...As Mary Fallin cuts taxes our economy will grow and actually bring in more money to the state from economic expantion.

Finding that McEnroe audio file where he screams something like "You cannot be serious! "

I think you might be living on Xenu.

Sent from my Atrix4G with fat fingers

Sauer, you are so insightful and obviously someone who thinks for yourself. I think I can safely say that since Republicans are now in charge and taxes are on the decline here that Oklahoma will once again be the powerhouse we have always been. Thanks for straightening us out and showing us why the facts are not relevant.

BTW, why did Fallin and the (effectively) unicameral legislature decide to eliminate income taxes on the top tier of income earners immediately while slowly lowering the taxes on the rest of us over a 10 year period? You won't see a measurable income tax decrease for 8-10yrs. Was that because there are so many low performing Democratic, unionized workers at the lower end who are simply unworthy?

Quote from: dbacks fan on March 18, 2012, 03:34:34 PM
The same can be said for people looking for work as well. Oklahoma is not very high on my list of where I'm looking for work, as well as the fact that jobs in my field are slim there, and it has nothing to do with taxes.

You may want to check out the state of Michigan if your looking for work, the unemployment rate is only 14%, the taxes are nice and high, if you find a job pray that the company does not close up or move elsewhere. Ohio is not bad either high taxes and companies fleeing out of the state another great state to job hunt.

Glenn made a funny! ^^^^

QuoteQuote from: dbacks fan on March 18, 2012, 02:34:34 pmThe same can be said for people looking for work as well. Oklahoma is not very high on my list of where I'm looking for work, as well as the fact that jobs in my field are slim there, and it has nothing to do with taxes.

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 20, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
  You may want to check out the state of Michigan if your looking for work, the unemployment rate is only 14%, the taxes are nice and high, if you find a job pray that the company does not close up or move elsewhere. Ohio is not bad either high taxes and companies fleeing out of the state another great state to job hunt.

You know, you are as clueless as Lindsay Lohan driving a car.

Quote from: Conan71 on March 20, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
Glenn made a funny! ^^^^

(http://www.philzone.org/discus/messages/439459/757317.jpg)
^^^^

Quote from: sauerkraut on March 20, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
  You may want to check out the state of Michigan if your looking for work, the unemployment rate is only 14%, the taxes are nice and high, if you find a job pray that the company does not close up or move elsewhere. Ohio is not bad either high taxes and companies fleeing out of the state another great state to job hunt.

Are you a victim of the Oklahoma Public School system?

Quote from: carltonplace on April 02, 2012, 08:03:34 AM
Are you a victim of the Oklahoma Public School system?

OK, now let's not disparage that; I am a victim too...wait, what?

Quote from: AquaMan on March 03, 2012, 10:36:39 AM
Jammie, here is a post I made with research from a previous thread on this subject. I mistakenly remembered Maine, it was actually New Hampshire. Doesn't matter, damn Yankees both of them!


   
   
Re: Fallin cuts top tax rate, says state revenue growth is enough.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2012, 05:19:17 pm »
Quote from: sauerkraut on February 18, 2012, 03:40:04 pm
Don't forget Texas is not the only state with no income tax, South Dakota, Wyoming, FL, Nevada, Washington and a few others have no income tax and they are all doing well, soon Oklahoma may joint the list of no-income tax states. I don't know what the prop taxes rates are in other states with no income tax. Most states do not tax food either.

Here are two of those states that have no income tax that you think are doing well:

Nevada....12.9% unemployment rate ....#51 ranking...highest unemployment in the nation
Florida....9.9% unemployment rate....#45 ranking
In fact only 2 of the states without income tax (you didn't mention Tennessee #35, Alaska #21, New Hampshire #4) are in the top half of the states rankings of unemployment. Texas is at #25. This according to the Bureau of Labor statistics.

Sorry my reply to your previous question is so late. I live in South Dakota. What am I doing on a Tulsa message board? I'd always been interested in visiting eastern OK and found this forum several years ago, joined, and asked a lot of questions and the nice folks answered them so I just hang out here on occasion. We may even move to that area some day.

Like Sauer said, we have a very low unemployment rate. North Dakota has the lowest in the nation and we're second lowest.

If you're highly educated, neither state will have much for you though. My area is looking for people like machinists, welders, etc. There are over 7,000 job openings up in Aberdeen so there's got to be a mixture up there.

My neighbor to the north is looking for people to work on the oil patches, also electricials, etc. People with associate degrees in SCADA and HVAC are always in demand up this way. We recently learned that even retail is paying between 14 and 18 per hr. in certain areas of North Dakota since there's been an influx of workers and not enough people to fill all the positions that are available. The problem you'll have in some of those areas is the lack of housing. There's supposed to be a company in Tx. that is making tiny houses that can be transported on semis and they can't make them fast enough for people to be able to get out of their cars or small campers. I can't confirm my last sentence since it's just hearsay.

South Dakota has actually lost at a chance for companies to move in because we don't have the labor force. I'm surprised that more unemployed people haven't headed this way since we have a lot of positives up here. We've got a huge negative and it's that some of our winters can be very brutal. It'd also be considered very boring for someone who comes from a city and is used to constantly having things going on around them.

Quote from: Jammie on April 08, 2012, 01:28:50 PM
Sorry my reply to your previous question is so late. I live in South Dakota. What am I doing on a Tulsa message board? I'd always been interested in visiting eastern OK and found this forum several years ago, joined, and asked a lot of questions and the nice folks answered them so I just hang out here on occasion. We may even move to that area some day.

Like Sauer said, we have a very low unemployment rate. North Dakota has the lowest in the nation and we're second lowest.

If you're highly educated, neither state will have much for you though. My area is looking for people like machinists, welders, etc. There are over 7,000 job openings up in Aberdeen so there's got to be a mixture up there.

My neighbor to the north is looking for people to work on the oil patches, also electricials, etc. People with associate degrees in SCADA and HVAC are always in demand up this way. We recently learned that even retail is paying between 14 and 18 per hr. in certain areas of North Dakota since there's been an influx of workers and not enough people to fill all the positions that are available. The problem you'll have in some of those areas is the lack of housing. There's supposed to be a company in Tx. that is making tiny houses that can be transported on semis and they can't make them fast enough for people to be able to get out of their cars or small campers. I can't confirm my last sentence since it's just hearsay.

South Dakota has actually lost at a chance for companies to move in because we don't have the labor force. I'm surprised that more unemployed people haven't headed this way since we have a lot of positives up here. We've got a huge negative and it's that some of our winters can be very brutal. It'd also be considered very boring for someone who comes from a city and is used to constantly having things going on around them.

If you come visit - and you should!! - bring a fishing pole!  We got lakes.  Sadly, not the clear water kind up there, but muddy and brackish, but loaded with black bass, stripers and catfish!  And crappie and gar and paddle fish and many others.  (Sorry, no pike...)  But you definitely want to spend your time in northeast Oklahoma.  There are some interesting things in OKC, but it you don't have unlimited time, stick within about 80 miles of Tulsa.

Oklahoma has a good bit of technology and engineering.  You have some technology up there - SymCom is in Rapid City.  And you got Sturgis!  Well, maybe that one isn't quite so technical, but it is interesting....

Thanks to Mary Fallin Oklahoma is doing very good, anyone who wants a job can find one in Tulsa. The Sunday Tulsa paper is full of jobs.  Mary Fallin is pro-business and favors tax cuts~ the golden formulia that grows economies.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 09, 2012, 12:38:16 PM
Thanks to Mary Fallin Oklahoma is doing very good, anyone who wants a job can find one in Tulsa. The Sunday Tulsa paper is full of jobs.  Mary Fallin is pro-business and favors tax cuts~ the golden formulia that grows economies.

You wouldn't by any chance happen to be an Oklahoma Highway Patrol officer, would you?

Oh, and by the way, those people I know looking for jobs beg to differ with you.  Another reason why I still don't think you reside here.  You're disconnected from the Tulsa/Oklahoma reality.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 09, 2012, 12:38:16 PM
Thanks to Mary Fallin Oklahoma is doing very good, anyone who wants a job can find one in Tulsa. The Sunday Tulsa paper is full of jobs.  Mary Fallin is pro-business and favors tax cuts~ the golden formulia that grows economies.

Perhaps in spite of....

Tulsa is doing better in my field than OKC, but that really isn't as good as it should be.  Much of it IS in oil and gas, though, so maybe I could get back to where the real money is....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 09, 2012, 01:52:25 PM
Perhaps in spite of....

Tulsa is doing better in my field than OKC, but that really isn't as good as it should be.  Much of it IS in oil and gas, though, so maybe I could get back to where the real money is....

The national economy is down due to Obama & the democrats, let's face it  Obama's anti-oil and anti-drilling policy hurt Oklahoma, but in November when Obama is gone and the world/industry turns to the new president elect Romney the oil and gas industry should really start to pick up. Can't drive a car with a windmill- Even with a sour national economy the state of Oklahoma is doing very good- there are jobs here.

Quote from: Hoss on May 09, 2012, 12:40:11 PM
You wouldn't by any chance happen to be an Oklahoma Highway Patrol officer, would you?

Oh, and by the way, those people I know looking for jobs beg to differ with you.  Another reason why I still don't think you reside here.  You're disconnected from the Tulsa/Oklahoma reality.

Have you not seen the Sunday Tulsa Newspaper? There is alot of work in Tulsa, full pages of "help wanted" ads and many job fairs with all kinds of employers looking for workers from medical to construction to service jobs. I'm working in Tulsa, if I can find a job here anyone can.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 10, 2012, 12:59:50 PM
Have you not seen the Sunday Tulsa Newspaper? There is alot of work in Tulsa, full pages of "help wanted" ads and many job fairs with all kinds of employers looking for workers from medical to construction to service jobs. I'm working in Tulsa, if I can find a job here anyone can.

Prove it.

Oh yes classifieds filled with work-from-home scams, and "sales" jobs. Just the kind of work most people are looking for. *rolls eyes*

We might have more jobs then most areas but to say no one is out of work is.... silly. You can't say that during the best of times.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 10, 2012, 12:53:01 PM
The national economy is down due to Obama & the democrats, let's face it  Obama's anti-oil and anti-drilling policy hurt Oklahoma, but in November when Obama is gone and the world/industry turns to the new president elect Romney the oil and gas industry should really start to pick up. Can't drive a car with a windmill- Even with a sour national economy the state of Oklahoma is doing very good- there are jobs here.

Since anyone who actually believes that kind of crap is a total idiot with no brain cells left whatsoever, this may be futile, but will provide you the following links to see some actual performance records of the US economy - much of it going back decades.  Particularly interesting is how the manufacturing graphs (second link) show that the ACTUAL rate of growth for Obamas 3 years is running at about double the rate of Bush's 8 years.  (And if you double - growth rate - a double - time involved - that makes an effective rate of 4 times as fast!)

http://www.crgraphs.com/

http://www.crgraphs.com/2011/09/manufacturing-graphs.html

Remember, you're talking to a guy who thinks all of Oklahoma's success is due to Fallin but all of its failures are due to Obama. He's looking at the world through fact filtering sunglasses.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 11, 2012, 09:42:57 AM
Remember, you're talking to a guy who thinks all of Oklahoma's success is due to Fallin but all of its failures are due to Obama. He's looking at the world through fact filtering sunglasses.

And from about 300 miles away....

Quote from: Hoss on May 11, 2012, 09:43:35 AM
And from about 300 miles away....

During field trips to the public library from the mental facility.

Polk fun all ya want, but If Fallin can get Oklahoma free of state income taxes, Oklahoma will be taking jobs away from Texas and will become a job magnet. Oklahoma is also blessed with natural resources and is bloated with natural gas reserves just waiting to be developed.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 11, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Polk fun all ya want.

Nobody's making fun.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 11, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Polk fun all ya want, but If Fallin can get Oklahoma free of state income taxes, Oklahoma will be taking jobs away from Texas and will become a job magnet. Oklahoma is also blessed with natural resources and is bloated with natural gas reserves just waiting to be developed.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-fN_DHh9hZYc/TcDGYuY5zyI/AAAAAAAAK9M/5SjcsMrLSss/s1600/face-palm-demotivational-poster-1233926135.jpg)

Even Mary Falin would facepalm that.

The more I think about it, the more I think that shifting away from sales and income tax in favor of property tax might just be the way to go. The (relative) stability in collections would be nice, if nothing else. Not real friendly to all the folks we've encouraged to buy their own home instead of renting, though. (pricing pressure from competition would arguably keep rents from rising enough to fully cover the cost of increased property tax)

If nothing else, it ought to make Gassy happy. His idols were pretty much property tax freaks.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 11, 2012, 10:49:13 AM
Polk fun all ya want, but If Fallin can get Oklahoma free of state income taxes, Oklahoma will be taking jobs away from Texas and will become a job magnet. Oklahoma is also blessed with natural resources and is bloated with natural gas reserves just waiting to be developed.

Overall tax burden is noticeably less than Texas already.  How would your delusional world explain why we haven't already been taking jobs from Texas?  This ought to be good....


You do realize that other taxes will increase through the roof to make up the difference?  Texas has property taxes light years higher than Oklahoma just to help make up the difference.  And the difference is greater than a 1:1 trade for income tax based on friends experience who have moved there.

I used to think Fallin was the dumbest thing in the state...at least I know she doesn't believe the crap she spews - she just spews it for her audience.

Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2012, 01:07:58 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think that shifting away from sales and income tax in favor of property tax might just be the way to go. The (relative) stability in collections would be nice, if nothing else. Not real friendly to all the folks we've encouraged to buy their own home instead of renting, though. (pricing pressure from competition would arguably keep rents from rising enough to fully cover the cost of increased property tax)

If nothing else, it ought to make Gassy happy. His idols were pretty much property tax freaks.

I can hear you giggling to yourself from here over this one....

Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2012, 01:07:58 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think that shifting away from sales and income tax in favor of property tax might just be the way to go. The (relative) stability in collections would be nice, if nothing else. Not real friendly to all the folks we've encouraged to buy their own home instead of renting, though. (pricing pressure from competition would arguably keep rents from rising enough to fully cover the cost of increased property tax)

If nothing else, it ought to make Gassy happy. His idols were pretty much property tax freaks.

Renters pay property taxes too...its imbedded in their rent.

Quote from: carltonplace on May 11, 2012, 01:13:32 PM
Renters pay property taxes too...its imbedded in their rent.

Let me quote myself:

Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2012, 01:07:58 PM
(pricing pressure from competition would arguably keep rents from rising enough to fully cover the cost of increased property tax)

Obviously, that would be less likely to hold true where rents are already only at/near break even. The other thing that would work to hold rents down is the increased cost of holding vacant property. It would encourage density and active use rather than encouraging people to buy and hold. I wouldn't terribly appreciate paying $11,000 a year in property tax, but it might be worth it if we could eliminate state income and sales tax as a result. The effect on renters, especially among the poor, would have to be carefully considered, though.

It's just something I've been thinking on.

(http://www.nwacg.net/gallery3/var/resizes/random-stuff/lots.PNG)

Quote from: nathanm on May 11, 2012, 02:17:53 PM
Let me quote myself:

Obviously, that would be less likely to hold true where rents are already only at/near break even. The other thing that would work to hold rents down is the increased cost of holding vacant property. It would encourage density and active use rather than encouraging people to buy and hold. I wouldn't terribly appreciate paying $11,000 a year in property tax, but it might be worth it if we could eliminate state income and sales tax as a result. The effect on renters, especially among the poor, would have to be carefully considered, though.

It's just something I've been thinking on.

(http://www.nwacg.net/gallery3/var/resizes/random-stuff/lots.PNG)

In reality you would think people would have this mindset of, if the taxes go up on my land then lets put something on it that will generate income... Well not in Oklahoma. I would predict we'll see more of the "surface parking lot craze" sweep through the state. Just think of what happened in downtown with the Coney Island Building, the taxes went up, so instead of putting something on the land/ renovating the property to produce income they just knocked down the building to make the lot less valuable, and easier to manage the taxes on it. I could see this becoming a huge problem in the inner cities where land lords that own units for lower income people, or people holding onto properties waiting for land prices to go up will just knock down the structure and leave empty lots or pave over them for parking where it makes sense.

For example I've looked into buying land in the Tracy Park/Pearl area in hopes to try and develop it in the near future and land prices with no structure on it seem to be anywhere from $8,000 - 15,000 while one with a home on it, even in bad shape, have value around $50,000 or more. The property tax increase percentage wise won't dramatically increase if there is nothing of value on the land. People around here will just start bulldozing vacant or run down properties.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 11, 2012, 09:44:32 PM
In reality you would think people would have this mindset of, if the taxes go up on my land then lets put something on it that will generate income... Well not in Oklahoma. I would predict we'll see more of the "surface parking lot craze" sweep through the state. Just think of what happened in downtown with the Coney Island Building, the taxes went up, so instead of putting something on the land/ renovating the property to produce income they just knocked down the building to make the lot less valuable, and easier to manage the taxes on it. I could see this becoming a huge problem in the inner cities where land lords that own units for lower income people, or people holding onto properties waiting for land prices to go up will just knock down the structure and leave empty lots or pave over them for parking where it makes sense.

For example I've looked into buying land in the Tracy Park/Pearl area in hopes to try and develop it in the near future and land prices with no structure on it seem to be anywhere from $8,000 - 15,000 while one with a home on it, even in bad shape, have value around $50,000 or more. The property tax increase percentage wise won't dramatically increase if there is nothing of value on the land. People around here will just start bulldozing vacant or run down properties.

Certainly in the CBD property tax could be made high enough to make surface parking (or allowing land to remain vacant) a very unattractive proposition. I do agree that it would be something that would have to be carefully considered due to its impact on existing less dense neighborhoods. A very generous homestead exemption might help with that.

Some disclosure might help illustrate why I'm thinking about it: Australia's property boom has led to a situation where land prices are (less so now than even a year ago) rising so rapidly largely due to home builders buying up most of the available land and then building homes at a rate far below what demand would indicate, thus driving prices up further. This is apparently enabled largely by low property tax. It got me to thinking that property tax might be a useful tool for helping to generate density, while also allowing for lower sales and income taxes the righties would like very much.

OUr generation was schooled in business college to "not operate a business to reduce or eliminate taxes" as a primary goal. Instead focus on revenue/profit growth and then work to keep taxes and other expenses in check. I'm not sure that has survived to the following generations who view all taxes as too high, and spend inordinate efforts to avoid them. Dropping Coney Island is the result.

Are you proposing that the property tax burden be shifted to uninproved property in an effort to stimulate growth and fight that mindset of reducing taxes through bloodletting? If so what are the implications? It seems that some people are going to take a bath on currently owned properties unless you free up capital financing at the same time. Those people are going to vigorously oppose shifting property tax burdens. Those people are important and can influence those policies.

Quote from: AquaMan on May 12, 2012, 09:42:23 AM
Are you proposing that the property tax burden be shifted to uninproved property in an effort to stimulate growth and fight that mindset of reducing taxes through bloodletting? If so what are the implications? It seems that some people are going to take a bath on currently owned properties unless you free up capital financing at the same time. Those people are going to vigorously oppose shifting property tax burdens. Those people are important and can influence those policies.

All property, not just unimproved property. (edited to add: I may be wrong about that) The idea is that it captures what is essentially land rent and forces property owners to make money on their improvements or sell it to someone who will. If you take that revenue and lower income and sales tax (and/or do the homestead exemption thing) it should keep the tax burden on individual homeowners reasonable. Again, I haven't researched in depth enough to say that it's a good idea, but it seemed like it was worth discussing. It might be more applicable to a market with ever-increasing rents like NYC, though. It theoretically helps that by forcing people to keep their property rentable or build new rental units lest they end up paying large property tax bills for idle or suboptimally used property.

I was hoping to get some input from Gaspar since he ought to be pretty familiar with the concept of land rent given that he often quotes folks who had a lot to say on the subject.

Also, I think we'd all appreciate it if we had less tax paperwork to deal with. Moving the tax burden away from economically productive activities and onto unearned income like land rent might get us much of the way there. The figure I've seen proposed is 6%. I'm not sure what that would add up to statewide or nationwide.

Remember that some people, as Guido often points out, don't make enough money to pay state or federal income tax. When you raise their property tax they don't realize any savings from elimination of sales tax or income tax. That includes those on fixed incomes like the elderly, divorcees, widowers etc. Pretty soon their properties become more valuable as rentals.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 09, 2012, 10:32:59 PM

If you come visit - and you should!! - bring a fishing pole!  We got lakes.  Sadly, not the clear water kind up there, but muddy and brackish, but loaded with black bass, stripers and catfish!  And crappie and gar and paddle fish and many others.  (Sorry, no pike...)  But you definitely want to spend your time in northeast Oklahoma.  There are some interesting things in OKC, but it you don't have unlimited time, stick within about 80 miles of Tulsa.

Oklahoma has a good bit of technology and engineering.  You have some technology up there - SymCom is in Rapid City.  And you got Sturgis!  Well, maybe that one isn't quite so technical, but it is interesting....


Yes! We did make a trip down that way, but it's been a few years ago already. We spent a couple days in Tulsa and then drove to the southeastern part of the state coming back north along the OK/Ark border. Grand Lake is an awesome place! My husband was ready to pack up and move to Grove, but I reminded him that we still needed employment and there didn't seem to be much there. It's definitely a nice vacation spot though.

My choice is Tulsa, even though the traffic and population is much more then we're used to. We liked Gilcrease Museum and the Rose gardens. The zoo was okay. The aquarium was pretty nice, too. We left before we could see Philbrook, but I figured that gives us another reason to come back! Grove may have a good hospital, but I'd rather live in an area that has specialists, too. One seems to think that way when you hit middle age.

We have plans on moving to a warmer climate one of these days and we've checked out a lot of areas of the country and somehow keep coming back to eastern OK. It's the only place that we both liked. He likes the desert. I don't. I like sub-tropical. He doesn't. You get the picture.  :)

"We cut taxes...sorta."

GOP plan to cut taxes for 54% of Oklahomans

http://www.ktul.com/story/18558371/gop-plan-to-cut-taxes-for-54-of-oklahomans?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.ktul.com/story/18558371/gop-plan-to-cut-taxes-for-54-of-oklahomans?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - An analysis of a GOP plan to slash Oklahoma's income tax shows about 54% of Oklahomans would receive a tax cut next year for an average savings of $60.

The analysis by the Oklahoma Tax Commission released on Friday shows another 21% of Oklahomans would see no change in their tax liability. Nearly 25% of Oklahomans would have an increase in their tax liability under the plan.

Gov. Mary Fallin and legislative leaders announced an agreement on the plan Thursday to slash Oklahoma's top income tax rate from 5.25% to 4.8% next year. The proposal passed its first hurdle on Friday when it was signed out of a House conference committee.

The proposal is expected to be considered Monday by a Senate panel.

The state of Oklahoma's unemployment rate has droped once more to 5.0% the lowest since 2008, tax cutting works... Mary Fallin's new  income tax plan will give residents more spending money and grow our economy. If Mary Fallin can get rid of Oklahoma's state income tax we'd be attracting jobs in from other states and even draw in jobs from Texas. One problem Oklahoma has that may need to be addressed is the tort reform thing- Texas has better tort laws. IMO Oklahoma is on the right path for growth and a booming economy.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 19, 2012, 10:20:51 AM
The state of Oklahoma's unemployment rate has droped once more to 5.0% the lowest since 2008, tax cutting works... Mary Fallin's new  income tax plan will give residents more spending money and grow our economy. If Mary Fallin can get rid of Oklahoma's state income tax we'd be attracting jobs in from other states and even draw in jobs from Texas. One problem Oklahoma has that may need to be addressed is the tort reform thing- Texas has better tort laws. IMO Oklahoma is on the right path for growth and a booming economy.

So, how many jobs are you going to create with your $60? Oh, wait, I think yours doesn't come till later. They are starting with the wealthy first.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 19, 2012, 10:20:51 AM
The state of Oklahoma's unemployment rate has droped once more to 5.0% the lowest since 2008, tax cutting works... Mary Fallin's new  income tax plan will give residents more spending money and grow our economy. If Mary Fallin can get rid of Oklahoma's state income tax we'd be attracting jobs in from other states and even draw in jobs from Texas. One problem Oklahoma has that may need to be addressed is the tort reform thing- Texas has better tort laws. IMO Oklahoma is on the right path for growth and a booming economy.

Have you got the internet equivalent of a tape recorder going for this?

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 19, 2012, 10:20:51 AM
The state of Oklahoma's unemployment rate has droped once more to 5.0% the lowest since 2008, tax cutting works... Mary Fallin's new  income tax plan will give residents more spending money and grow our economy. If Mary Fallin can get rid of Oklahoma's state income tax we'd be attracting jobs in from other states and even draw in jobs from Texas. One problem Oklahoma has that may need to be addressed is the tort reform thing- Texas has better tort laws. IMO Oklahoma is on the right path for growth and a booming economy.

I'll try to keep this simple so you can understand the question and maybe come up with an answer.....part two will be later....


What is YOUR recommendation to replace the money (1/3 of the state budget) that will be gone when income tax is gone?  In other words, how are we gonna pay for all the stuff?

Oklahoma State Debt

www.ok.gov/bondadvisor/State_Debt/index.html  (http://www.ok.gov/bondadvisor/State_Debt/index.html)

Quote from: Townsend on May 22, 2012, 02:20:39 PM
Oklahoma State Debt

www.ok.gov/bondadvisor/State_Debt/index.html  (http://www.ok.gov/bondadvisor/State_Debt/index.html)

Pesky facts!  Don't ya just hate 'em?

Me likey this:

QuoteBISMARCK, N.D. — Since Californians shrank their property taxes more than three decades ago by passing Proposition 13, people around the nation have echoed their dismay over such levies, putting forth plans to even them, simplify them, cap them, slash them. In an election here on Tuesday, residents of North Dakota will consider a measure that reaches far beyond any of that — one that abolishes the property tax entirely.

"I would like to be able to know that my home, no matter what happens to my income or my life, is not going to be taken away from me because I can't pay a tax," said Susan Beehler, one in a group of North Dakotans who have pressed for an amendment to the state's Constitution to end the property tax. They argue that the tax is unpredictable, inconsistent, counter to the concept of property ownership and needless in a state that, thanks in part to wildly successful oil drilling, finds itself in the rare circumstance of carrying budget reserves.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/north-dakota-voters-consider-ending-property-tax.html?_r=1&hp

I know it's a long shot up there, but I can dream a little; right? Timely also since I just got my property tax documents and had a look at all the services I am paying for which I have no intention of ever using.

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 12:13:28 AM
Me likey this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/north-dakota-voters-consider-ending-property-tax.html?_r=1&hp

I know it's a long shot up there, but I can dream a little; right? Timely also since I just got my property tax documents and had a look at all the services I am paying for which I have no intention of ever using.

Do that here, then it's free and clear on upping consumption taxes.  Watch excise tax (what you pay when buying a vehicle) triple...easily.  And other "fees" and taxes.  Income taxes would likely skyrocket.  Then what would Sauer have to crow about?

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 12:13:28 AM
Me likey this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/12/us/north-dakota-voters-consider-ending-property-tax.html?_r=1&hp

I know it's a long shot up there, but I can dream a little; right? Timely also since I just got my property tax documents and had a look at all the services I am paying for which I have no intention of ever using.

It's for the common good.

Much the same way that I have to pay for the obscenity of Iraq with no value ever accruing to self.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 12, 2012, 10:13:40 AM
It's for the common good.

Much the same way that I have to pay for the obscenity of Iraq with no value ever accruing to self.

Our property taxes are paying for the Iraq war? As for those taxes, I don't use the library (I have my own bathrooms and internet access), kids are in private schools, and have no plans to use Tulsa higher ed. Meh. Not seeing any "common good" for me there, but oh well. Like I said, I can dream, can't I?

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 10:21:01 AM
Our property taxes are paying for the Iraq war? As for those taxes, I don't use the library (I have my own bathrooms and internet access), kids are in private schools, and have no plans to use Tulsa higher ed. Meh. Not seeing any "common good" for me there, but oh well. Like I said, I can dream, can't I?

You are helping educate the rest of the unwashed masses, so society in general will rise above it's baser activities and instincts by way of the enlightenment that accrues from said education.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 12, 2012, 10:32:18 AM

You are helping educate the rest of the unwashed masses, so society in general will rise above it's baser activities and instincts by way of the enlightenment that accrues from said education.

I know what it's for and I really have no problem getting our children educated. College age? Meh, not as much. But the youngsters need a chance. Still, to me, there is that little voice (when I am not wearing this http://zapatopi.net/afdb/) asking where's the help from "society in general" to help educate my kids?

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 04:48:03 PM
I know what it's for and I really have no problem getting our children educated. College age? Meh, not as much. But the youngsters need a chance. Still, to me, there is that little voice (when I am not wearing this http://zapatopi.net/afdb/) asking where's the help from "society in general" to help educate my kids?

Amazing - when I read your note - and before looking at the link - I was thinking aluminum hat!


Help is sitting there waiting for you to avail yourself.  Jenks, Union, Broken Arrow.  All three have systems that are - dare I express the heresy? - gonna educate your kids well.  (In spite of what the granddaughter says about Union being "so ghetto"....)  Probably my biggest complaint about those 3 is the way they keep the high schools as one instead of breaking them up - for the sole purpose of high school football!!  I really do hate that...

Ya just gotta adjust yourself to the idea that they would be exposed to the "unwashed masses"....yeah, it's a tough one - if I had your resources, I would probably do what you are doing.  (And I knew a small group of Holland Hall kids when I was in school - VERY wild and crazy kids!!  In all the ways their parents wanted to avoid by sending them there...) 

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 12, 2012, 05:00:43 PM

Ya just gotta adjust yourself to the idea that they would be exposed to the "unwashed masses"....yeah, it's a tough one - if I had your resources, I would probably do what you are doing.  (And I knew a small group of Holland Hall kids when I was in school - VERY wild and crazy kids!!  In all the ways their parents wanted to avoid by sending them there...)  

There is an "x" factor in my house, that is my vote on the guido kids' education being irrelevant.  ;D I think knowing one's place in the family, and understanding it is not going to change, is the first step towards permanent acceptance.

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 06:18:53 PM
There is an "x" factor in my house, that is my vote on the guido kids' education being irrelevant.  ;D I think knowing one's place in the family, and understanding it is not going to change, is the first step towards permanent acceptance.

That's sad.  For you and the kids.  Is she a private school graduate?

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 12, 2012, 06:59:07 PM
That's sad.  For you and the kids.  Is she a private school graduate?

Nope. Only me (college). The reason I prefer private schools are well documented in here. And I trust you and others understand I was kidding about my lack of control--although with every good joke there is truth.

Quote from: guido911 on June 12, 2012, 10:35:11 PM
Nope. Only me (college). The reason I prefer private schools are well documented in here. And I trust you and others understand I was kidding about my lack of control--although with every good joke there is truth.

A common thread - private college.  TU if I remember correctly?

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 13, 2012, 09:12:08 AM
A common thread - private college.  TU if I remember correctly?

yep

Oklahoma's and Tulsa's unemployment fell for another month in a row, it's now down to 4.8%. Mary Fallin Rocks. Her pro-growth & pro-business policys are working- They are attracting jobs to the city of Tulsa. :)

Quote from: sauerkraut on June 16, 2012, 10:59:23 AM
Oklahoma's and Tulsa's unemployment fell for another month in a row, it's now down to 4.8%. Mary Fallin Rocks. Her pro-growth & pro-business policys are working- They are attracting jobs to the city of Tulsa. :)

Whatever.

Hey, what happened to that bill to eliminate taxes.

Oh, both parties saw it as a pile.

Quote from: sauerkraut on June 16, 2012, 10:59:23 AM
Oklahoma's and Tulsa's unemployment fell for another month in a row, it's now down to 4.8%. Mary Fallin Rocks. Her pro-growth & pro-business policys are working- They are attracting jobs to the city of Tulsa. :)

That's good. I like the smiley face....tells me you're being sarcastic.

Quote from: Teatownclown on June 16, 2012, 02:07:29 PM
That's good. I like the smiley face....tells me you're being sarcastic.

No, he is not being sarcastic.  He's the village idiot.