The city is considering a swap of the donated high ground at the foot of the Osage Hills, valued at 2.77 million dollars, with a private owned University a parcel of its donated land in the Bird Creek Basin flood plain, valued at 1.56 million dollars.
The Air Port Authority's long range plan is to fill this flood plain.
Seems while back Owasso put out information that if Tulsa increases flooding in Owasso they will take appropriate action to protest their citizens.
Doesn’t this require an intelligent study by the council before the swap is made?
Quote from: shadows on February 19, 2012, 08:47:07 PM
The city is considering a swap of the donated high ground at the foot of the Osage Hills, valued at 2.77 million dollars, with a private owned University a parcel of its donated land in the Bird Creek Basin flood plain, valued at 1.56 million dollars.
The Air Port Authority's long range plan is to fill this flood plain.
Seems while back Owasso put out information that if Tulsa increases flooding in Owasso they will take appropriate action to protest their citizens.
Doesn't this require an intelligent study by the council before the swap is made?
Would be nice to cite or link this...how can you expect people to form an opinion on it otherwise?
Try TW page one Friday Feb. 17 2012 addition?
May have pictures of the flooding and you can check with weather bureau on dates of Bird Creek flooding.
Quote from: shadows on February 19, 2012, 09:08:15 PM
Try TW page one Friday Feb. 17 2012 addition?
May have pictures of the flooding and you can check with weather bureau on dates of Bird Creek flooding.
Is it really that difficult for those of us who don't read the TW for you to make the cite in the initial post?
Thanks.
I think INCOG has a role in flood mitigation, and that federal rules prohibit filling flood plain unless the fill material is taken from that same area. In other words, you fill one area by digging the material out of another. That came out of a meeting about future development in Mohawk Park, which is part of the Bird Creek floodplain.
The only area that is flood prone around Owasso is the pecan grove between Bird Creek and 76th St along Mingo Road. If we receive several days of rain, it will cover Mingo with a foot or two of water, but none of the steams are close to the airport, so it's unlikely that any airport development would add to flooding woes. Remember, though, that there's a stream improvement project that from the air looks suspiciously like a third north-south runway.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20120217_16_A11_Cityco288585
Land swap between city, TU discussed
By JARREL WADE World staff writer
Published: 2/17/2012
City councilors discussed a proposed resolution Thursday to swap land near the Gilcrease Museum owned by the city of Tulsa for land near the airport owned by the University of Tulsa. The trade would allow airport officials to continue development on an intermodal corridor to connect the airport to nearby rail lines, airport officials said. TU would be able to pursue plans of adding university-owned buildings to complement the programs at the Gilcrease Museum, said Susan Neal, TU's associate vice president of public affairs and economic development.
Jeff Mulder, airports director for the Tulsa Airport Authority, said the intermodal connection is still in development phases, but it's an overall effort to diversify Tulsa International Airport's revenue. The project would create a hub of several types of transportation that could all flow through a single location, councilors were told. Mayor Dewey Bartlett and councilors talked about the intermodal project as one of their goals during a joint discussion earlier this month.
Owning the land would increase the airport authority's chances of getting grants to continue the project, Mulder said. During Thursday's Public Works Committee Meeting, Councilor G.T. Bynum questioned whether the land swap was a fair trade because the property owned by the city near the Gilcrease Museum was appraised at more than the TU-owned property near the airport. Councilor Jack Henderson said the deal could not be better because it would help further the plans of both organizations. "I've never seen a deal come up that's a better deal than this one," he said.
"When you look at the money they are going to save us in the future, ... it's nothing compared to what they (TU) have done and what I'm sure they will do." Councilor Phil Lakin offered to postpone the proposed resolution discussion until next week, but Councilor David Patrick said he was aware of a desire to announce the swap publicly Feb. 24, pending the resolution passing in council. Councilors agreed to meet with officials to discuss the resolution further before next week.
The TU land, near 56th Street North and U.S. 169, consists of 250 acres valued at $1.56 million, according to information provided at the committee meeting. The city of Tulsa land is immediately west of the Gilcrease Museum and consists of 316 acres valued at $2.77 million. The TU land is a candidate for the intermodal project because of its proximity to U.S. 169, the airport and the Southern Kansas and Oklahoma Railway Line, according to a proposal given to councilors.
The city is joined by the Tulsa Airport Authority and the Tulsa Port of Catoosa as parties interested in the project, according to the councilors' information sheet. The University of Tulsa's interest in the property near the Gilcrease Museum stems from its management of the museum for the last three years. Neal told councilors about plans to build additions nearby that would complement the museum while staying in line with the museum's original goals. TU programs have raised $39 million to support the museum and raised $19 million to build a research center and a national archive, she said.
Neal said discussions about the land swap and possible uses began about two years ago. "We have a vision that we have shared with you all and certainly the city of a much broader, grander vision for the museum," she said. "It is Tulsa's world-class treasure."
I don't know any more than what I just read, but it doesn't sound like it is a terrible deal for Tulsa. Henderson is right about what TU has done for the museum. They have truly saved this treasure.
Even if the appraised value of land being swapped to the non-city entity is higher, if the entity can do something more productive with it than the city can, whether it's develop jobs or it's useful for educational purposes, etc. it adds more value to the community if someone is using it rather than it sitting fallow and collecting empty beer cans- in most cases.
Land leases are usually difficult. This should be on a 25 year timeline. The offering will wind up as a round about subsidized (corporate welfare) method of providing jobs albeit the COT/Chamber should know better (Cherokee Industrial). :-\
So will Owasso be forced to protest its citizens?
So, I have to ask the question, how the hell did TU end up with land that far flung?
Quote from: jacobi on February 20, 2012, 11:34:27 AM
So, I have to ask the question, how the hell did TU end up with land that far flung?
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Donation by the family who owned much of the land east of the airport.
At the meeting some years ago on the third runway I pointed out that many cities were moving their airports outside their cities to eliminate the sword that was hanging by a hair over the heads of its citizens. The Authority's long range plan seems to be based on moving the city. There is an accident waiting for its time to happen as there are many homes and schools in or near the flight patterns.
Quote from: carltonplace on February 20, 2012, 09:28:44 AM
So will Owasso be forced to protest its citizens?
...
Sorry but that is mistake on spell-check autocorrecting and neglecting to proof read before hitting the post button.
Too late to move it too Owasso. Maybe Catoosa would consider moving so we could put it there. :P
I do like the idea Shadows. Phoenix moved theirs out away from town (which immediately caused suspicion I might add). The area between here and Bartlesville is very flat and might make a great location. Both Bartlesville and Tulsa would get benefit.
Quote from: Conan71 on February 19, 2012, 11:14:09 PM
Even if the appraised value of land being swapped to the non-city entity is higher, if the entity can do something more productive with it than the city can, whether it's develop jobs or it's useful for educational purposes, etc. it adds more value to the community if someone is using it rather than it sitting fallow and collecting empty beer cans- in most cases.
If the family who owns the private University would deed the University to the City, who has taxing powers, then the middle man would be cut out. Our should the City of Tulsa deed the City to the University who has a long running policy of influencing the governing body of the City.
The governing bodies of the City have a long standing desire to fill the flood plain enabling them to build the third runway in the flood plain.
I vote we build a gigantic airport in Stroud that is capable of handling international and large cargo (ala Alliance in the DFW metroplex). Then link Tulsa & OKC with high speed rail.
Quote from: rdj on February 21, 2012, 10:50:25 AM
I vote we build a gigantic airport in Stroud that is capable of handling international and large cargo (ala Alliance in the DFW metroplex). Then link Tulsa & OKC with high speed rail.
Tornado bait.
Quote from: rdj on February 21, 2012, 10:50:25 AM
I vote we build a gigantic airport in Stroud that is capable of handling international and large cargo (ala Alliance in the DFW metroplex). Then link Tulsa & OKC with high speed rail.
Alliance won't last another year I bet. AMR is talking about shuttering it because of the bankruptcy.
Quote from: shadows on February 20, 2012, 04:28:41 PM
If the family who owns the private University would deed the University to the City, who has taxing powers, then the middle man would be cut out. Our should the City of Tulsa deed the City to the University who has a long running policy of influencing the governing body of the City.
The governing bodies of the City have a long standing desire to fill the flood plain enabling them to build the third runway in the flood plain.
Okay...what?
Quote from: Townsend on February 21, 2012, 11:01:19 AM
Okay...what?
I've given up...I obviously don't have the Super-Secret-Shadows-Decoder-Ring.
Quote from: Hoss on February 21, 2012, 11:06:28 AM
I've given up...I obviously don't have the Super-Secret-Shadows-Decoder-Ring.
RM has it, there is can be only one.
Quote from: carltonplace on February 21, 2012, 11:26:34 AM
RM has it, there is can be only one.
(http://www.tueplay.com/content/pictures/200806/16/highlander%20.jpg)
Quote from: Hoss on February 21, 2012, 10:55:00 AM
Alliance won't last another year I bet. AMR is talking about shuttering it because of the bankruptcy.
There is a lot more to Alliance than just the AMR maintenance base.
Quote from: Hoss on February 21, 2012, 11:06:28 AM
I've given up...I obviously don't have the Super-Secret-Shadows-Decoder-Ring.
I have some more rings on order. Will start passing them out soon as I have them.
There are many opportunities available to the possessors of the rings.
Quote from: Ed W on February 19, 2012, 09:37:21 PM
I think INCOG has a role in flood mitigation, and that federal rules prohibit filling flood plain unless the fill material is taken from that same area. In other words, you fill one area by digging the material out of another. That came out of a meeting about future development in Mohawk Park, which is part of the Bird Creek floodplain..
The visible Bird Creek flood plain extends to 36 street North. Federal regulations prohibit fills in the flood plain. We met with the corps and they said their soft ware on over bank flooding would no be available for years. FEMA flew a rep from Dallas to Tulsa and the good-ole-boys seemed to have wined and dine him and made sure he did not miss the evening flight back to Dallas.
The dirt at Pork Chop (65 acres) detention pond at 11th St. was placed in the Mingo flood plain South of Pine St. The pond dug at the bottom of the detention pond with out-board engineering cost of thousands of dollars, now filled with water. Total detention; ZERO.
We met with original Engineer who planed the flood controls for 1M. Total Cost; Millions of dollars of federal and city money.
Then there is the dirt that washed down stream to fill the creek’s catch basin on Pine that was used to fill the flood plain on the North side of Pine.
Follow the money as the people are laughing all the way to the bank with it gained by the broad federal regulation in filling the flood plain.
There he goes again.
Sent from my Atrix4G with fat fingers
Quote from: Hoss on February 25, 2012, 05:40:55 PM
There he goes again.
Sent from my Atrix4G with fat fingers
I sent the post by striking a hollow log for an Indian to post it with his Atari after they produced the computer language for their toy and one of our major manufactures sent it to Japan who duplicated it under their own brand. Japan set the no repair policy and established the throwaway policy buying our scrap steel converting it to the articles of war they were planning. China is buying our recycling material now at a premium price with three trillion dollars of credit.
Quote from: shadows on February 25, 2012, 09:04:11 PM
I sent the post by striking a hollow log for an Indian to post it with his Atari after they produced the computer language for their toy and one of our major manufactures sent it to Japan who duplicated it under their own brand. Japan set the no repair policy and established the throwaway policy buying our scrap steel converting it to the articles of war they were planning. China is buying our recycling material now at a premium price with three trillion dollars of credit.
Just....wow.
Quote from: shadows on February 25, 2012, 09:04:11 PM
I sent the post by striking a hollow log for an Indian to post it with his Atari after they produced the computer language for their toy and one of our major manufactures sent it to Japan who duplicated it under their own brand. Japan set the no repair policy and established the throwaway policy buying our scrap steel converting it to the articles of war they were planning. China is buying our recycling material now at a premium price with three trillion dollars of credit.
Thank you professor.
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2012, 09:35:35 PM
Thank you professor.
Tnx for the comment in the qso but they didn't have a graduating class for professors in the fourth grade.
Quote from: shadows on February 25, 2012, 09:04:11 PM
I sent the post by striking a hollow log for an Indian to post it with his Atari after they produced the computer language for their toy and one of our major manufactures sent it to Japan who duplicated it under their own brand. Japan set the no repair policy and established the throwaway policy buying our scrap steel converting it to the articles of war they were planning. China is buying our recycling material now at a premium price with three trillion dollars of credit.
I know some people from the Navajo that would string you up like Richard Harris in "A Man Called Horse" for that comment.
Quote from: Hoss on February 25, 2012, 09:33:38 PM
Just....wow.
I'm trying to "unread" it so my brain will stop hurting.
Gilcrease thought he was building both the Indian nations and Tulsa a monument for the world to see free of charge. Had he wanted to he could have given it to TU a private university. Instead this asset was given to the citizens of Tulsa. He lacked the vision of seeing it being treating as a political football to be tossed around and pawned off to private ownership. He should have used the same writers in the transfer of the museum to Tulsa that Davis used with his gun collection in Claremore.
Quote from: shadows on February 28, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
Gilcrease thought he was building both the Indian nations and Tulsa a monument for the world to see free of charge. Had he wanted to he could have given it to TU a private university. Instead this asset was given to the citizens of Tulsa. He lacked the vision of seeing it being treating as a political football to be tossed around and pawned off to private ownership. He should have used the same writers in the transfer of the museum to Tulsa that Davis used with his gun collection in Claremore.
A little misconception, the collection was not given to the City of Tulsa. Mr. Gilcrease approached the mayor in need of funds to maintain the collection and ultimately SOLD the collection (and the origional grounds) to the City. The purchase was approved by voters and authorized the sale of bonds to finance the deal and today the City still owns the collection as the transaction required.
Quote from: Vision 2025 on March 08, 2012, 02:34:26 PM
A little misconception, the collection was not given to the City of Tulsa. Mr. Gilcrease approached the mayor in need of funds to maintain the collection and ultimately SOLD the collection (and the origional grounds) to the City. The purchase was approved by voters and authorized the sale of bonds to finance the deal and today the City still owns the collection as the transaction required.
...
How about vision 2025 posting the details of the transaction with the condition imposed by Gilcrease.
.
Quote from: shadows on March 08, 2012, 03:19:46 PM
...
How about vision 2025 posting the details of the transaction with the condition imposed by Gilcrease.
.
What? Google not your friend?
Quote from: Hoss on March 08, 2012, 03:44:54 PM
What? Google not your friend?
I've noticed he doesn't know how.
Quote from: Townsend on March 08, 2012, 04:07:47 PM
I've noticed he doesn't know how.
And the fact of the matter is that I don't think Gilcrease at that time was in a position to impose any 'conditions', since he was quite in debt.
Ok here's the story; l almost got it correct previously please no floggings. So rather than my memory I went to the source for the 'rest of the story' so to speak. I talked to my Dad, he was City Attorney at the time, worte the deal and remembers it quite well.
Mr. Gilcrease had borrowed money to acquire much of the collection which came from New York and when the price of oil plunged in the mid 50's he couldn't make the payments and was in significant danger of loosing the collection to the bank. To keep it in Tulsa he approached the Mayor to purchase the collection and grounds for the cost of the debt against it (3 million by Dad's memory). The Mayor proposed a bond issue which passed but ended up in the Supreme Court (an unsuccessful challenge) and the City sold bonds, acquired the collection, which was then assigned to the Park Board for management. Mr. Gilcrease was so grateful that he then pledged to repay the bonds so that the citizens of Tulsa did not have too which he did with oil revenue which took many years past his death to accomplish. Dad also recalled that the purchase agreement included a specific provision that the city could not sell the collection, don't know about the grounds.
Quote from: Vision 2025 on March 08, 2012, 07:00:34 PM
Ok here's the story; l almost got it correct previously please no floggings. So rather than my memory I went to the source for the 'rest of the story' so to speak. I talked to my Dad, he was City Attorney at the time, worte the deal and remembers it quite well.
Mr. Gilcrease had borrowed money to acquire much of the collection which came from New York and when the price of oil plunged in the mid 50's he couldn't make the payments and was in significant danger of loosing the collection to the bank. To keep it in Tulsa he approached the Mayor to purchase the collection and grounds for the cost of the debt against it (3 million by Dad's memory). The Mayor proposed a bond issue which passed but ended up in the Supreme Court (an unsuccessful challenge) and the City sold bonds, acquired the collection, which was then assigned to the Park Board for management. Mr. Gilcrease was so grateful that he then pledged to repay the bonds so that the citizens of Tulsa did not have too which he did with oil revenue which took many years past his death to accomplish. Dad also recalled that the purchase agreement included a specific provision that the city could not sell the collection, don't know about the grounds.
If I recall correctly the bonds were paid off in 1985.
Thank you for the whole story. Gilcrease, and planners Hantan (sp) and Wilson told a different story. During the construction of the building it was noted that it was not big enough to display the collection of the Indian and Western artifacts that he had collected. Gilcrease, I am sure could have sold the collection for three times any amount he owed to the western gamming boys but he built it as a tribute to the Indian nations and he said it would be a non commercial unity. I believe he has some living children that one might ask about his venture. Sorry I stand by my previous posts. I apologize.
Having had a business on North Mingo road for some 50 years am sure I have pictures of the land the city is trading for under water. Believe Wolf made pictures from helicopter also. Someone come up with a simple way to post them I will do it. Have instructions in the file but take too much time to find them.
Quote from: Hoss on March 08, 2012, 03:44:54 PM
What? Google not your friend?
...
(The following is not intended to infringe on Google’s copyright but is indented only to further the information they have published under a possible copyright. This is only an insert from such article.)
(Quoted: The museum was renamed the Thomas Gilcrease Institute of American History and Art. In 1958 the founder deeded the museum buildings to the community along with more than thirteen acres of land. Gilcrease committed the revenues from some of his oil properties toward the reimbursement of the original bond amount, which was achieved in 1985.)
Seems there is a question as to how many acres and when they were deeded to the community. Did the articles of transfer of ownership show the large acreage that is being traded?
It has become a political football where the elite meet to eat and the working poor, retirees and aged pick up the tab payable by increasing city taxes.
Quote from: shadows on March 10, 2012, 04:27:18 PM
...
(The following is not intended to infringe on Google's copyright but is indented only to further the information they have published under a possible copyright. This is only an insert from such article.)
(Quoted: The museum was renamed the Thomas Gilcrease Institute of American History and Art. In 1958 the founder deeded the museum buildings to the community along with more than thirteen acres of land. Gilcrease committed the revenues from some of his oil properties toward the reimbursement of the original bond amount, which was achieved in 1985.)
Seems there is a question as to how many acres and when they were deeded to the community. Did the articles of transfer of ownership show the large acreage that is being traded?
It has become a political football where the elite meet to eat and the working poor, retirees and aged pick up the tab payable by increasing city taxes.
You make me chuckle...
Quote from: Hoss on March 10, 2012, 04:43:51 PM
You make me chuckle...
...
Good buddy have yourself a good laugh
If you had talked with late Gilcrease or his advisors, you would have found him to have been a very dedicated person determined to establish a FREE ADMISSION museum in order to educate future generations of the old west.
It was known that he was later disappointed by the community not accepting the free gift of which in the end has become as a carnival side show charging admission to those who he wanted to reach with the gathered treasures.
There are several persons that could be considered as inheritors to the collection that could possibility find a court to rule on the way it is being abused. The court assessed Claremore/Rogers a multi-million dollar judgment on abuse of power and its citizens are not amused.
Quote from: shadows on March 10, 2012, 06:01:40 PM
...
Good buddy have yourself a good laugh
If you had talked with late Gilscrease or his advisors, you would have found him to have been a very dedicated person determined to establish a FREE ADMISSION museum in order to educate future generations of the old west.
It was known that he was later disappointed by the community not accepting the free gift of which in the end has become as a carnival side show charging admission to those who he wanted to reach with the gathered treasures.
There are several persons that could be considered as inheritors to the collection that could possibility find a court to rule on the way it is being abused. The court assessed Claremore/Rogers a multi-million dollar judgment on abuse of power and its citizens are not amused.
Let's remember who approached whom..it was Gilcrease. The city didn't. Thomas Gilcrease approached the mayor.
Buddy. You need to get the images of black helicopters out of your head.
Quote from: Hoss on March 10, 2012, 06:13:51 PM
Let's remember who approached whom..it was Gilcrease. The city didn't. Thomas Gilcrease approached the mayor.
Buddy. You need to get the images of black helicopters out of your head.
...
You are exactly right Gilcrease was a collector and not a promoter. He assumed the city would promote the collection and approached the mayor, who represents the city, with the free gift and the oil royalties was set aside to maintain and promote it. At the present price of oil even a 3 barrel stripper pays well. The city actually had no investment other than to promote it but the city bureaucracies took over and most citizens don't even know it exist nor its location
The council is asking some hard questions (TW) on the swapping for the substandard lands, at a cost to the city taxpayer, on the presumption manufactures is going to climb over each other just to have a place to locate. Course the Air Port Authority wants control to add it to their little Fiefdom. The biggest problem is that the land is not it China or Japan where our manufacturing is well seated already.
Seems it always happens when some one gives a free gift to help put a city on the map and the bureaucracy declares “No that mine and don’t belong to the citizens.”