"Funk also speculated that an NHL team could land in Tulsa, if an NBA team is in Oklahoma City. Tulsa is building a new downtown arena scheduled to open in 2008.":
Taken from a new article back in 2008 when Penguins were considering a move: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2722259
An NBA team has landed in Oklahoma City; both Tulsa and Oklahoma City could make strange bedfellows.
Many nay-sayers said that an NHL or NBA team would never survive in Oklahoma. Tulsa has the new BOK Center which had better amenities than the Oklahoma City Arena (current: Chesapeake Energy Arena) during its initial opening.
As far as the capacity to support one major professional sports franchise; Tulsa has as much potential as Oklahoma City. The numbers which Tulsa has now were very comparable to the numbers Oklahoma City had when the New Orleans Hornets were transplanted to OKC.
The NHL & NBA both look at the market which includes:
1. Media Market: http://mediainfosaltlakecity.blogspot.com/2010/10/2010-2011-nielsen-dma-market-rankings.html
In 2000 Oklahoma City's media tv households was approximately 605,000
In 2010 Tulsa's tv households numbered 535,000
2. Metropolitan Population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas
In 2000 Oklahoma City's metro population was right at 1,095,000
IN 2010 Tulsa's metro population was right at 937,000 which cover less area than OKC's metro.
There are more than 2.75 million people living within a 100-mile radius of Tulsa.
Facility:
Tulsa BOK Center seats approximately 17,100 for ice hockey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_Events_Center
The NHL would be the only game in town and you would surely draw from the Oklahoma City and Wichita markets if an NHL team landed in Tulsa
Ownership Group:?
There are groups in Tulsa and Oklahoma City which could share the responsibility of ownership.
What are your thoughts?
I think anyone would have a difficult time seperating the Coyotes from the City of Glendale. The attached is from a year ago, but it covers most of the agreement between the NHL and the City of Glendale.
Go to page 20, item 23.
http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/agendasandminutes/Meetings/Minutes/121410.pdf (http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/agendasandminutes/Meetings/Minutes/121410.pdf)
QuoteMcKenzie says that the NHL will soon throw their support behind either former Sharks president Greg Jamison or former Coyotes interested party in purchasing the team, Jerry Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf is a favorite of the Gary Bettman and of the Glendale City Council. Apparently owning the Chicago White Sox and running the Chicago Bulls looks good on a résumé.
More importantly in all this, McKenzie notes that if a deal can't be worked out in 2012 with either Jamison or Reinsdorf, the NHL's hands will be forced and they'll have to open up the bidding to anyone willing to buy the moribund team. If that happens, it could lead to the Coyotes being relocated.
One way or another, an end game appears to be at hand for the Coyotes. The NHL doesn't want to eat the losses for the team and having the City of Glendale continue to put up their own money to help stem those losses is not a long-term or short-term option anymore. If Jamison or Reinsdorf can't get a deal together that works for the city and keeps the Goldwater Institute out of the process, the Coyotes are going to be on their way out of the desert.
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/17/mckenzie-coyotes-sale-saga-to-come-to-a-head-in-2012/ (http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/17/mckenzie-coyotes-sale-saga-to-come-to-a-head-in-2012/)
http://www.azcentral.com/community/westvalley/articles/2011/11/25/20111125can-glendale-get-coyotes-deal-done.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/westvalley/articles/2011/11/25/20111125can-glendale-get-coyotes-deal-done.html)
Quote from: dbacks fan on December 21, 2011, 10:13:22 PM
I think anyone would have a difficult time seperating the Coyotes from the City of Glendale. The attached is from a year ago, but it covers most of the agreement between the NHL and the City of Glendale.
Go to page 20, item 23.
http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/agendasandminutes/Meetings/Minutes/121410.pdf (http://www.glendaleaz.com/Clerk/agendasandminutes/Meetings/Minutes/121410.pdf)
Agreements were made to be broken. I'm not saying Tulsa would (or even should) get an NHL team yet, but they (the Coyotes) were on life support last year. Was just watching NHL Network and jobing.com Arena did not look very full. And looking at the numbers, 10,969 is not very good (which for that arena would be 64.1 percent capacity, although Dallas is doing worse at 63.9).
EDIT: If the Coyotes were to go anywhere, it would likely be Quebec City, or even somewhere near Toronto, are the rumors I'm hearing.
Quote from: Hoss on December 21, 2011, 10:17:22 PM
Agreements were made to be broken. I'm not saying Tulsa would (or even should) get an NHL team yet, but they (the Coyotes) were on life support last year. Was just watching NHL Network and jobing.com Arena did not look very full. And looking at the numbers, 10,969 is not very good (which for that arena would be 64.1 percent capacity, although Dallas is doing worse at 63.9).
Don't disagree, but I think Jerry Reinsdorf has some clout in Phoenix with owning the White Sox and already established with the Sox's training facility in the valley. Could they be sold and moved? Sure. But Glendale is doing what they can so they aren't left holding the bag with the arena, the Suns aren't moving anytime soon, and if the shopping and entertainment area West Gate is going to survive, it's been foreclosed on if I remember, Glendale will probably do everything they can to keep them there.
Sure we can...If it was not for Katrina....OKc would never have had a B-ball team.....Just goes to show how things can work out......No one would have given Okc a chance without that team camping out in Okc for a year.....Okc still sucks though.... ;D
Interesting things I have found out in looking into this since I have been gone since July, Tanger and one or two others are planning upscale outlet malls in the Phoenix area. There is one in Palm Springs that is huge near the Morengo Casino complex. (Trump had one there for a while as well) Anyway, they all are looking into locations arounf PHX that were planned for retail development and failed do to the market.
http://www.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/2011/12/16/20111216tanger-outlet-considers-westgate.html (http://www.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/2011/12/16/20111216tanger-outlet-considers-westgate.html)
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/10/26/20111026glendale-westgate-foreclosures-new-track.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2011/10/26/20111026glendale-westgate-foreclosures-new-track.html)
Gary Bettman updates Phoenix Coyotes sale situation.
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/19/gary-bettman-updates-phoenix-coyotes-sale-situation/
Tulsa's BOK Center would definitely be a home for an Oklahoma NHL team and the City has the income base to support an NHL franchise in Oklahoma. You also have two major markets within 150-mile radius of Tulsa: Wichita & Oklahoma City.
I would be glued to the plexiglass if an NHL team came to Tulsa.
What groups in Oklahoma would be interested in bringing an NHL franchise to Tulsa?
An NHL team would be fabulous for the city of Tulsa and would certainly help build the city's exposure and reputation. But unfortunately it seems very unrealistic.
Attendance:
Support for Tulsa's existing pro hockey team is relatively weak. Average attendance for Oilers games this season is currently 4,560 (http://pointstreak.com/prostats/attendance.html?leagueid=12&seasonid=7599). Remember, that's tickets sold/given away, not actual attendance. The ~3,000 regulars are the same ~3,000 regulars that have been going since 1992. They are dedicated and loyal, but where are the other 12,000 going to come from?
Ticket Price:
While I believe some Oilers tickets are over-priced, over all they are priced reasonably well. Through regular promotions, you can go for as little as $10. NHL ticket prices obviously would be much higher. (http://www.tulsaoilers.com/tickets/individual-game-tickets/)
Fair weather fans:
Aren't we notorious for only supporting winning teams? The Phoenix Coyotes have made the playoffs in 7/14 seasons and have never won a playoff series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Phoenix_Coyotes_seasons)
Competition:
There are several municipalities that have a much stronger case for landing a franchise. Quebec City and Kansas City come to mind first. Quebec City obviously has the familiar Canadian audience and Kansas City hosted an NHL pre-season exhibition game this season (http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/sports/exhibition-at-sprint-center-sets-attendance-mark-for-nhl-preseason-games-played-at-neutral-site).
Novelty:
A move to Tulsa would certainly make a big splash but would it sustain?
Bottom line:
The deck is stacked against us and without an ownership group that will do whatever it takes (http://www.thenation.com/article/grand-theft-hoops-stealing-sonics) to get a team, there's no NHL in Tulsa's future.
A more realistic possibility could be Tulsa landing an AHL team. A renewed rivalry with OKC (Barons) as well as building regional rivals in larger markets like Austin, San Antonio and Houston would be good for Tulsa and strengthen Hockey in the region.
Quote from: puckbag on February 07, 2012, 12:11:00 AM
What groups in Oklahoma would be interested in bringing an NHL franchise to Tulsa?
An NHL team would be fabulous for the city of Tulsa and would certainly help build the city's exposure and reputation. But unfortunately it seems very unrealistic.
Attendance:
Support for Tulsa's existing pro hockey team is relatively weak. Average attendance for Oilers games this season is currently 4,560 (http://pointstreak.com/prostats/attendance.html?leagueid=12&seasonid=7599). Remember, that's tickets sold/given away, not actual attendance. The ~3,000 regulars are the same ~3,000 regulars that have been going since 1992. They are dedicated and loyal, but where are the other 12,000 going to come from?
Ticket Price:
While I believe some Oilers tickets are over-priced, over all they are priced reasonably well. Through regular promotions, you can go for as little as $10. NHL ticket prices obviously would be much higher. (http://www.tulsaoilers.com/tickets/individual-game-tickets/)
Fair weather fans:
Aren't we notorious for only supporting winning teams? The Phoenix Coyotes have made the playoffs in 7/14 seasons and have never won a playoff series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Phoenix_Coyotes_seasons)
Competition:
There are several municipalities that have a much stronger case for landing a franchise. Quebec City and Kansas City come to mind first. Quebec City obviously has the familiar Canadian audience and Kansas City hosted an NHL pre-season exhibition game this season (http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/sports/exhibition-at-sprint-center-sets-attendance-mark-for-nhl-preseason-games-played-at-neutral-site).
Novelty:
A move to Tulsa would certainly make a big splash but would it sustain?
Bottom line:
The deck is stacked against us and without an ownership group that will do whatever it takes (http://www.thenation.com/article/grand-theft-hoops-stealing-sonics) to get a team, there's no NHL in Tulsa's future.
A more realistic possibility could be Tulsa landing an AHL team. A renewed rivalry with OKC (Barons) as well as building regional rivals in larger markets like Austin, San Antonio and Houston would be good for Tulsa and strengthen Hockey in the region.
Need to bring Wichita in as well. It wouldn't be an absolute requirement, but having the CHL 'Trinity' would help all three markets. Looking at the Barons' avg attendance, they might need it (right now about 3600).
If OKC had a D-league basketball team instead of one of the hottest franchises in the NBA right now, Cheasapeake Arena would be drawing 4000-5000 fans, if that. Even if the Thunder sucked, they could consistently get 10,000 plus fans.
I suspect a real-deal NHL franchise could do really well in the Tulsa market.
The only handicap I can see to it is that a southern market like Tulsa isn't hard-wired for hockey like it is in the northeast. We are definitely more stick and ball sports rather than stick and puck, but I do believe with the right ownership and marketing, you could see 15,000 fans at games if we had a good franchise.
I mostly agree with you Conan, a top tier franchise will draw more than a 3rd or 4th level one. And frankly as bad as the Oilers have been in the recent past, its encouraging that attendance is still what it is.
Being the only major pro sport in the market could help offset the non-traditional market aspect.
The key is a group who has the desire and the bank to make it happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Bennett#Owner_of_the_Oklahoma_City_NBA_franchise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_McClendon#NBA_Oklahoma_City_Thunder
Quote from: Conan71 on February 07, 2012, 09:40:16 AM
If OKC had a D-league basketball team instead of one of the hottest franchises in the NBA right now, Cheasapeake Arena would be drawing 4000-5000 fans, if that. Even if the Thunder sucked, they could consistently get 10,000 plus fans.
I suspect a real-deal NHL franchise could do really well in the Tulsa market.
The only handicap I can see to it is that a southern market like Tulsa isn't hard-wired for hockey like it is in the northeast. We are definitely more stick and ball sports rather than stick and puck, but I do believe with the right ownership and marketing, you could see 15,000 fans at games if we had a good franchise.
We'd need to be closer to capacity to really do well. Keep the Lunds out of the prospect and I think it would do well. I wish Primeaux had been able to buy the team in the late nineties. He's hardcore hockey (from New England) and was a huge fan. He wound up dealing with Lund re: Talons and I'm guessing got a bitter taste from that. From my understanding, Lund's offering price was high even for the Trump (mid seven figures for a minor league franchise is crazy).
Of all the things I'm a fan of at the BOK, I'm not a fan of the way they configured the club seating. It is essentially a huge void on those nights when club seat holders don't attend, and since those seats are in the lower bowl, as opposed to having their own level, it really is a detraction. Allow people to sit in those seats on nights when club seat holders don't attend, and it might help, but that sounds like a logistical nightmare. I'd rather see us start with the AHL, but rumors are abounding already about whether or not there will be professional hockey of the CHL variety at this time next season.
Maybe Tulsa only has 3rd or 4th tier owners? ;)
Only thing is, I could see Bennett or McClendon only being interested in supporting the OKC market with an NHL team. I get the point that they've got the consortium of money it would require and an existing interest in pro sports. But I keep hearing in my head: "We've done so well with the NBA in OKC, we ought to bring an NHL franchise here."
In actuality I'd think with our size markets, it would be much smarter to have one pro franchise of different sports at opposite ends of the turnpike. Less competition for $$ within the same city.
Quote from: puckbag on February 07, 2012, 10:06:39 AM
I mostly agree with you Conan, a top tier franchise will draw more than a 3rd or 4th level one. And frankly as bad as the Oilers have been in the recent past, its encouraging that attendance is still what it is.
Being the only major pro sport in the market could help offset the non-traditional market aspect.
The key is a group who has the desire and the bank to make it happen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Bennett#Owner_of_the_Oklahoma_City_NBA_franchise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey_McClendon#NBA_Oklahoma_City_Thunder
Funk of Express Sports pitched Tulsa and the BOK Center when the Penguins were haggling with the City of Pittsburgh over a new arena. The arena deal ultimately got done (Consol Energy Center), but just the fact that OKCers were pitching us for a relocation (could you imagine Sidney Crosby here?) actually made me like OKC. For about 10 days, until the arena deal closed with the city. ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on February 07, 2012, 10:18:07 AM
Maybe Tulsa only has 3rd or 4th tier owners? ;)
Only thing is, I could see Bennett or McClendon only being interested in supporting the OKC market with an NHL team. I get the point that they've got the consortium of money it would require and an existing interest in pro sports. But I keep hearing in my head: "We've done so well with the NBA in OKC, we ought to bring an NHL franchise here."
In actuality I'd think with our size markets, it would be much smarter to have one pro franchise of different sports at opposite ends of the turnpike. Less competition for $$ within the same city.
Especially when you consider that the NBA would fight the NHL teams for home dates. Well, when they're not on a lockout that is.
;D
I'm no fan of NBA basketball and not a fan of OKC but I can't deny my envy for the city being able to successfully pull off a major league franchise.
It would surely be a better decision to place an NHL team in Tulsa to compliment the NBA in OKC instead of having two franchises compete for the same facility throughout the season. A scenario where the cities traded teams for a number of games would be positive also.
The 66ers are the development team for the Thunder. If the Barons were the development team for an NHL team in Tulsa you would have one very cooperative situation where everyone would benefit. Dream on...
Quote from: puckbag on February 07, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
I'm no fan of NBA basketball and not a fan of OKC but I can't deny my envy for the city being able to successfully pull off a major league franchise.
It would surely be a better decision to place an NHL team in Tulsa to compliment the NBA in OKC instead of having two franchises compete for the same facility throughout the season. A scenario where the cities traded teams for a number of games would be positive also.
The 66ers are the development team for the Thunder. If the Barons were the development team for an NHL team in Tulsa you would have one very cooperative situation where everyone would benefit. Dream on...
While I'm absolutely no fan of OKC, can one say that without the temporary relocation of the Hornets that OKC would have even had a chance at having the NBA? I'm not so sure. OKC had the benefit of having a 'test run' without the downside of the risk involved. OKC knew at some point they'd have to relinquish their rights to the Hornets.
OKC sports fans are just as fickle as Tulsa sports fans. See, e.g., Oklahoma or Oklahoma State basketball programs right now. When teams do well (or when the weather is good/stars align) people come out. BUt hard core supporters we are not.
If/when OKC Thunder stumbles for a number of years in a row attendence will drop off quickly. In Chicago there are enough people to doll out serious cash to support the Bulls year after year without really caring. There are enough passionate Cheifs fans to suffer year after year. The same has not been proven in any Oklahoma sport (even OU football fans start to jump wagon after a couple off years).
I would love the exposure and cred a professional team would bring to Tulsa, even if the NHL is most the minor of major league teams... ;)
Here is an update as to what's happening with the Coyotes and the city of Glendale:
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/02/02/20120202glendales-bond-refinancing-didnt-live-up-hopes.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/2012/02/02/20120202glendales-bond-refinancing-didnt-live-up-hopes.html)
Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 08, 2012, 05:36:17 PM
OKC sports fans are just as fickle as Tulsa sports fans. See, e.g., Oklahoma or Oklahoma State basketball programs right now. When teams do well (or when the weather is good/stars align) people come out. BUt hard core supporters we are not.
If/when OKC Thunder stumbles for a number of years in a row attendence will drop off quickly. In Chicago there are enough people to doll out serious cash to support the Bulls year after year without really caring. There are enough passionate Cheifs fans to suffer year after year. The same has not been proven in any Oklahoma sport (even OU football fans start to jump wagon after a couple off years).
I would love the exposure and cred a professional team would bring to Tulsa, even if the NHL is most the minor of major league teams... ;)
Tulsa would definitely benefit from a major league franchise like the NHL. You will see your community's support & benefits. Tulsa would be a more viable market in the NHL than OKC is in the NBA.
Here are the attendance figures for Hornets & Thunder seasons in OKC:
2005-06 New Orleans-Oklahoma City Hornets . . . 18,168 Didn't make playoffs
2006-07 New Orleans-Oklahoma City Hornets . . . 17,833 Didn't make playoffs
2007-08 No NBA team in OKC
2008-09 Oklahoma City Thunder . . . . . . . . . . . . 18,693 Didn't make playoffs
2009-10 Oklahoma City Thunder . . . . . . . . . . . . 18,003 Made playoffs--lost to Los Angeles Lakers in round one.
2010-11 Oklahoma City Thunder . . . . . . . . . . . . 18,148 Western Conference finals--lost of Dallas Mavericks
2011-12 Oklahoma City Thunder . . . . . . . . . . . . 18,203 (current)
ESPN NBA Attendance: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance
It will be interesting to see if the Thunder can maintain success as they make the playoffs or if they have an off year. The first five years will often determine the success of a break-through (first major league franchise) city in major league sports (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL).
Go Thunder! http://newsok.com/gallery/articleid/3648172/pictures/1636585
I'm an avid viewer of the NHL Network (go figure...)
On Thursdays, their call-in show features the commissioner (Gary Bettman) for an hour. There was some talk today about the city of Seattle and it's intentions to jump into the fray.
The problem right now is that there is no building in the area that would be suitable for either NHL hockey OR basketball (as they are talking more about getting basketball back than having hockey, but it is being talked about). So if you take the average time it takes to build an arena, the soonest you could theorize Seattle could have an NHL team would be 2014-2015.
But Bettman was pretty adamant about no planned venue changes, even amongst the midst of the goings-on in Glendale.
That's always subject to change at any time though...currently St Louis is trying to work out some ownership issues of its own.
Because of the sight lines and obstructions in KeyArena it would not be a viable option for a temporary home to an NHL franchise; nearby, Tacoma (Dome) would be a better option.
Seattle proposed arena: http://www.king5.com/news/New-Seattle-arena-press-conference-set-for-Thursday-139407008.html
KeyArena: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KeyArena
KeyArena was built strictly for basketball and has seating for about 14,500-15,000 for hockey with some upper-deck seating view obstruction.
Seattle will get a new privately funded arena only if guarantees can be made with long-term tenants of both the NHL and NBA. Seattle could not support all four major professional sports; figures show that it would be an overextended sports market.
Things are getting interesting in all of this.
http://www.nwcn.com/sports/Coyotes-may-no-longer-be-option-for-Seattle-NHL-team-139562608.html (http://www.nwcn.com/sports/Coyotes-may-no-longer-be-option-for-Seattle-NHL-team-139562608.html)
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2012/02/16/20120216phoenix-coyotes-ownership-third-party-bickley.html (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2012/02/16/20120216phoenix-coyotes-ownership-third-party-bickley.html)
I will have to find the article to cite my next comment, appearently Seatle still owes a chunk of change on the now gone Ling Dome, and a lot of people in the Seatle area are not wild about the possibility of the city or county building a new arena after the bad deal for Key Arena.
Quote"We've been working on stadium funding issues for 15 years," said Chris Van Dyk.
Van Dyk and his Citizens for More Important Things successful backed I-91.
"With I-91 in place the city cannot make an investment in arena without generating a positive cash rate of return on the investment," said Van Dyk.
He now questions if the city and county's willingness to bond up to $200 million in debt creates too much public risk.
"This proposal may or may not comply with I-91. We just want to make sure it does," he said.
http://www.nwcn.com/news/Concerns-raised-about-new-Seattle-arena-plan-139597503.html (http://www.nwcn.com/news/Concerns-raised-about-new-Seattle-arena-plan-139597503.html)
If Tulsa got the NHL team that Seattle wants, I'd be afraid that Seattle would formally charge Oklahoma with theft.
Quote from: sgrizzle on February 18, 2012, 08:22:38 PM
If Tulsa got the NHL team that Seattle wants, I'd be afraid that Seattle would formally charge Oklahoma with theft.
While I"m pretty sure it won't happen (either, for that matter), that's some funny stuff right there, Scott. Nicely done.
Looks like it won't be Phoenix. Good for them. Hate to see any team relocate.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/report-phoenix-coyotes-sale-nearly-complete-greg-jamison-143756163.html
Quote from: Hoss on February 21, 2012, 02:37:09 PM
Looks like it won't be Phoenix. Good for them. Hate to see any team relocate.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/report-phoenix-coyotes-sale-nearly-complete-greg-jamison-143756163.html
Would like to mention that several NHL teams are having problems right now and there are a number of cities where if the NHL were to relocate it would be the only major game in town.
Louisville and Tulsa are current markets with no major professional sports which could meet NHL-ready standards. The only markets in the NHL with no major professional sports are Raleigh and Columbus, OH.
Some NHL markets are just not viable markets anymore and the NHL may need to look at the NBA model of "break-through" cities (cities with only one major league franchise) like Portland, Orlando, San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Memphis & Oklahoma City.
NHL teams with concerns besides Phoenix are the Florida Panthers, Tampa Bay Lightning, Columbus Blue Jackets and New York Islander. http://spectorshockey.net/wordpress/2011/06/04/other-nhl-teams-potentially-in-trouble/
ESPN NHL attendance figures: http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance
Oklahoma could support an NHL franchise in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.
Tulsa's biggest natural rivals in the NHL would probably be St. Louis, Dallas and Nashville. Tulsa would draw fans from Oklahoma City, Wichita, Kansas City, Fort Smith and Little Rock.
Quote from: puckbag on February 07, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
I'm no fan of NBA basketball and not a fan of OKC but I can't deny my envy for the city being able to successfully pull off a major league franchise.
It would surely be a better decision to place an NHL team in Tulsa to compliment the NBA in OKC instead of having two franchises compete for the same facility throughout the season. A scenario where the cities traded teams for a number of games would be positive also.
The 66ers are the development team for the Thunder. If the Barons were the development team for an NHL team in Tulsa you would have one very cooperative situation where everyone would benefit. Dream on...
Oklahoma City is not big enough to support both the NBA and the NHL; however, the NHL and NBA could co-exist in this state with teams on the opposite ends of the Turnpike. The Thunder are currently getting a lot of fans from Wichita, Tulsa, Lawton, Enid and Fort Smith outside of OKC's metropolitan area.
If the NHL were in Tulsa, I do agree that an NHL development team in OKC like the Barons would complement the hockey base in Oklahoma.
Are there any rivalries between OKC in Tulsa in semi-professional sports anymore? There are a lot of potential owners who might want to invest in an NHL team in Tulsa. Bob Funk and some of the Thunder owners would be a good start. This would be a situation in which both cities would benefit.
OKC is in the PCL in baseball and Tulsa is in the Texas League. OKC and Tulsa once had a rivarly in the American Association and the Pacific Coast League. Tulsa with the new ONEOK baseball could move back to AAA.
Tulsa in in the CHL in ice hockey and OKC is AHL. Tulsa definitely has the facility to move up to AHL status.
High Schools sports are the only times OKC and Tulsa plays and it's usually nothing to get excited about since Tulsa dominates the high school football scene in most classes.
Lar, you're not in banking are you? Don't. You'd cost your employer if you were a loan officer.
Quote from: Laramie on February 25, 2012, 05:48:26 PM
Would like to mention that several NHL teams are having problems right now and there are a number of cities where if the NHL were to relocate it would be the only major game in town.
Oklahoma could support an NHL franchise in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City.
Spare me laramie. It is so benevolent of you to think that Tulsa should get a pro sports team, albeit it one that the entire league is dying. Hockey TV ratings are incredibly microscopicly low and when the player's contract expires on September 15, 2012, there will probably be a player's strike.
The main reason OKC got the Thunder is that millions in state dollars helped pay for it. What do you think the odds would be that the state would pay millions to help Tulsa get a pro hockey team? Zero.
You say, "Oklahoma could support an NHL franchise in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City." I say, "When the legislature and Governor do something big like this for Tulsa, we won't need an ice rink for hockey, because Hell would have froze over and we could skate anywhere."
A couple of things that are conspicuously missing from the latest Laramie NHL in Tulsa diatribe and pipedream are: deep pocketed and committed ownership and..... revenue streams.
I fear that it was enough of a stretch for Tulsa's WNBA ownership group to commit enough local money to move the team here and keep the team here... the Shock could easily play their games at the Reynolds Center, the Mabee Center, or the UMAC... but it is luxury suites at the high profile BOk Center that sealed the deal, and ultimately seals the team's fate, whatever that may be.... and the deep pockets in that ownership group have made the choice of backing the WNBA Shock over the arguably more popular Talons...
I was contacted by Cameron Box Sports a couple of years ago regarding the idea of bringing an NASL team (one level below MLS) to Tulsa... unfortunately I had to tell them that a pro soccer team playing at the old ballpark on the fairgrounds not only would have no BOk or Oneok Park corporate suites at their disposal, and that the powers that be (a certain douchebag county commissioner) also insisted they would have zero control over concessions, that 100% of concessions sales would go to the county, and that a prospective team would NEVER get the sweetheart lease deal the Drillers got when they were there... strike one... strike two... strike three... three deal breakers and you're out...
If someone in Tulsa can motivate 10,000 Tulsans to commit to NHL season tickets (that's how Columbus got a Major League Soccer team over Tulsa in 1995), I could see it happening... but only if those season ticket commitments motivated movers and shakers with the big bucks in Tulsa to commit to alot of red ink... and whether that financial backing would amount to enough to stand up to the financial commitment of groups in Kansas City or Quebec City or Seattle or Hartford or ?.... and the WNBA Shock would be dropped like an unforced turnover...
Of course, if the State of Oklahoma had backed up former Mayor LaFortune with an enterprise zone or star-bonds sometime between 2002 and 2005, etc, rather than having Brad Lund/Bob Funk/Express Sports insist on the superiority of OKC's soccer market to Tulsa's in MLS's expansion sweepstakes at that time... http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/2007/11/history-of-mls-expansion-and-franchises.html ...a little state and local help and committed ownership coulda gave Tulsa something like this... http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2011/06/09/livestrong-sporting-park-opens-mls.html ...how iconic... :D
So, there ya go.... and wherever you go... there you are.
Meanwhile, back to your regularly scheduled hockey discussion...
Quote from: RecycleMichael on February 25, 2012, 08:03:46 PM
Spare me laramie. It is so benevolent of you to think that Tulsa should get a pro sports team, albeit it one that the entire league is dying. Hockey TV ratings are incredibly microscopicly low and when the player's contract expires on September 15, 2012, there will probably be a player's strike.
The main reason OKC got the Thunder is that millions in state dollars helped pay for it. What do you think the odds would be that the state would pay millions to help Tulsa get a pro hockey team? Zero.
You say, "Oklahoma could support an NHL franchise in Tulsa and an NBA franchise in Oklahoma City." I say, "When the legislature and Governor do something big like this for Tulsa, we won't need an ice rink for hockey, because Hell would have froze over and we could skate anywhere."
Are you making reference to the Oklahoma's Quality Jobs Program? The tax breaks had nothing to do with the decision to relocate. The Sonic owners (PBC) were Oklahoma owners who were losing an estimated $15-$20 million in Seattle. The tax breaks given the team were no different from any other entity relocating to Oklahoma.
What brought the Sonics to Oklahoma City was the MAPS for HOOPS, 'Big League City' Initative approved by Oklahoma City voters which funded the arema upgrades and a practice facility:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-thunders-practice-facility-will-be-the-place-for-players/article/3395005
OKC voters approved MAPS for HOOPS:
http://mynorthwest.com/?sid=33158&nid=11
I lived briefly in Tulsa and I wouldn't sell the 'Magic Empire' short of having the potential to support one major league franchise.
As for the Oklahoma Legislature--this team would have relocated regardless of the tax incentives. We do have state income tax and a jobs program which the franchise relocation did qualify.
What are the chances of this (NHL in Tulsa) happening? Well, there were nay-sayers in Oklahoma City when we entered the NHL expansion derby back in 1997; Oklahoma City and Houston were left out in the cold. We came up short. OKC did get a trial-run with the transplanted New Orleans Hornets temporary 2-year relocation.
Tulsa is a much more diverse and cosmopolitan city than OKC which is a cluster of suburbia--OKC is finally beginning to take on an urban flavor. Tulsa has a higher per capita income; more people per square mile (population density) and corporately stronger than OKC.
There are three things that the NBA and NHL want from their communities:
1. Market: Population & Media
2. Facility
3. Ownership
Tulsa definitely has two of these. Local ownership would be the key.
Sure,
I'm no expert and certainly not a banker; however, I do recognize that there are two great communities in Oklahoma (Tulsa & Oklahoma City).
Quote from: Laramie on February 26, 2012, 10:39:11 PM
Are you making reference to the Oklahoma's Quality Jobs Program? The tax breaks had nothing to do with the decision to relocate. The Sonic owners (PBC) were Oklahoma owners who were losing an estimated $15-$20 million in Seattle. The tax breaks given the team were no different from any other entity relocating to Oklahoma.
What brought the Sonics to Oklahoma City was the MAPS for HOOPS, 'Big League City' Initative approved by Oklahoma City voters which funded the arema upgrades and a practice facility:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-thunders-practice-facility-will-be-the-place-for-players/article/3395005
OKC voters approved MAPS for HOOPS:
http://mynorthwest.com/?sid=33158&nid=11
I lived briefly in Tulsa and I wouldn't sell the 'Magic Empire' short of having the potential to support one major league franchise.
As for the Oklahoma Legislature--this team would have relocated regardless of the tax incentives. We do have state income tax and a jobs program which the franchise relocation did qualify.
What are the chances of this (NHL in Tulsa) happening? Well, there were nay-sayers in Oklahoma City when we entered the NHL expansion derby back in 1997; Oklahoma City and Houston were left out in the cold. We came up short. OKC did get a trial-run with the transplanted New Orleans Hornets temporary 2-year relocation.
Tulsa is a much more diverse and cosmopolitan city than OKC which is a cluster of suburbia--OKC is finally beginning to take on an urban flavor. Tulsa has a higher per capita income; more people per square mile (population density) and corporately stronger than OKC.
There are three things that the NBA and NHL want from their communities:
1. Market: Population & Media
2. Facility
3. Ownership
Tulsa definitely has two of these. Local ownership would be the key.
Sure, I'm no expert and certainly not a banker; however, I do recognize that there are two great communities in Oklahoma (Tulsa & Oklahoma City).
And while I don't think it will happen anytime soon, Tulsa does have a bit of a longer history with hockey than it does with soccer (1920s). It also has a dense population base to draw from regionally (1/2 of the Oklahoma population live in Green Country, which is about 1/4 of the land area of Oklahoma). It could also draw from communities Bartlesville, Muskogee, the region of NW Arkansas and etc.
But investors would definitely need to be committed. The reason hockey doesn't do well here is because the current owner doesn't promote it and won't spend money to do so. Wichita is enjoying the rewards of new ownership who are vested in the team and its success. I'm not so sure about Lund right now. He's pretty much fielded a franchise/operation on the cheap since he acquired controlling interest in the team from Horn Chen some years ago.
Quote from: Hoss on February 26, 2012, 10:47:35 PM
And while I don't think it will happen anytime soon, Tulsa does have a bit of a longer history with hockey than it does with soccer (1920s). It also has a dense population base to draw from regionally (1/2 of the Oklahoma population live in Green Country, which is about 1/4 of the land area of Oklahoma). It could also draw from communities Bartlesville, Muskogee, the region of NW Arkansas and etc.
Yawn. There you go again.
The current fanbase and youth participation rate for soccer in this city is far larger than the fanbase has ever been for ice hockey.
The modern youth soccer movement now has a few decades under its belt (Pele was the sport's ambassador in the mid 70s)..... competitive club soccer in Tulsa is very popular here... Competitive youth hockey in Tulsa? Does such a thing exist? Of course, pro hockey has been gifted with multiple publicly financed arenas over the years while Tulsa could have got an MLS team in the 90s if TU had gone with a grass field at Skelly Stadium in the 90s.... go figure.... time to start some new traditions...
Quote from: TulsaRufnex on February 28, 2012, 08:03:31 PM
Yawn. There you go again.
The current fanbase and youth participation rate for soccer in this city is far larger than the fanbase has ever been for ice hockey.
The modern youth soccer movement now has a few decades under its belt (Pele was the sport's ambassador in the mid 70s)..... competitive club soccer in Tulsa is very popular here... Competitive youth hockey in Tulsa? Does such a thing exist? Of course, pro hockey has been gifted with multiple publicly financed arenas over the years while Tulsa could have got an MLS team in the 90s if TU had gone with a grass field at Skelly Stadium in the 90s.... go figure.... time to start some new traditions...
And there you go again...Jeff.
It certainly isn't the fault of hockey in the Tulsa area that it can be played in a multipurpose indoor arena. Wait, didn't indoor soccer get that? And how long did it last here?
And do you not know that there are many school hockey clubs in Tulsa? http://www.eteamz.com/thsh/
While I certainly have nothing against soccer (played it in highschool) quit your bitchin about people who actually DO like another sport other than soccer. This whole thread talks about hockey. Not soccer. Start your own.
Jeez.
Ruf, I love it when you post this stuff! All those years ago, these are the greatest moments in Tulsa professional sports. We brought our own beer in coolers into the stands, smoked it up, and went wild. It was the best of times! :)
It was the doo dah days. Money flowed like wine. Carl Moore and Rick Lowenhertz! Caskey, Moreland, Woodward, Danifard et al...the list is long.
Pele, Canaglia, Berkenbauer....Crazy George! too...
Thanks!
Quote from: Hoss on February 28, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
And there you go again...Jeff.
It certainly isn't the fault of hockey in the Tulsa area that it can be played in a multipurpose indoor arena. Wait, didn't indoor soccer get that? And how long did it last here?
And do you not know that there are many school hockey clubs in Tulsa? http://www.eteamz.com/thsh/
While I certainly have nothing against soccer (played it in highschool) quit your bitchin about people who actually DO like another sport other than soccer. This whole thread talks about hockey. Not soccer. Start your own.
Jeez.
First, if I started a thread, it'd get lost in all the useless hockey threads with zero responses here... second, I'd rather watch women play hockey or roller derby than watch minor leaguers in the CHL.... third, this thread was started by Laramie from OKC, which means it's more about getting a major league pro sports team in Tulsa than it is about hockey.
Ask me how I know this.
Oh, and I like most other sports...
Thanks for playing.
RUF
Quote from: Hoss on February 28, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
And there you go again...Jeff.
It certainly isn't the fault of hockey in the Tulsa area that it can be played in a multipurpose indoor arena. Wait, didn't indoor soccer get that? And how long did it last here?
And do you not know that there are many school hockey clubs in Tulsa? http://www.eteamz.com/thsh/
While I certainly have nothing against soccer (played it in highschool) quit your bitchin about people who actually DO like another sport other than soccer. This whole thread talks about hockey. Not soccer. Start your own.
Jeez.
I always love his sourcing though. To illustrate how popular soccer is in Tulsa today, he references a couple of 33 year old videos.
Actually, Ruf, I do quite enjoy the old Roughnecks vids. Still can't help sparring with you though ;D
Quote from: Conan71 on February 29, 2012, 09:01:18 AM
I always love his sourcing though. To illustrate how popular soccer is in Tulsa today, he references a couple of 33 year old videos.
Actually, Ruf, I do quite enjoy the old Roughnecks vids. Still can't help sparring with you though ;D
And as I've said, I like soccer too. But not enough to denigrate fans of other sports like he has a tendency to do.
I am going to KC this weekend with my son's soccer team (his coach is Victor Moreland). In his bracket are teams from Oklahoma, Kansas, St. Louis and Chicago. The hotels and restaurants are packed this weekend and they have 20 similar tournaments a year at those fields. Soccer is creating great revenue.
My daughter plays competitive soccer too. Her club (Blitz United) has six competitive teams of nothing but ten year old girls. It the Tulsa area in her age group there are 15 competitive teams and twice as many recreation teams.
I agree with Rufnex. Soccer is super popular in Tulsa and I think Tulsa would support a pro team (especially a USL team).
I just don't see an NHL franchise surviving here. It would be maybe only slightly more popular than the WNBA. Why can't we just try and move up at least one notch to AAA baseball and/or AHL hockey? I hate that we are in a baseball league with a bunch of Texas suburbs. I want to play teams from actual cities, and have a real rivalry with OKC in AAA baseball.
Quote from: DowntownDan on March 02, 2012, 04:37:54 PM
I just don't see an NHL franchise surviving here. It would be maybe only slightly more popular than the WNBA. Why can't we just try and move up at least one notch to AAA baseball and/or AHL hockey? I hate that we are in a baseball league with a bunch of Texas suburbs. I want to play teams from actual cities, and have a real rivalry with OKC in AAA baseball.
No one saw the NBA surviving in OKC either.
I 'm not saying we could do it, just stating the fact.
OKC got lucky that their team got really good really fast. I think they would have struggled to sustain sell outs once the newness wore off if the team stunk. But they are really, really good, and are likely to make the Finals and possibly win it all. That goes a long way to build long term success. Already hooked a large portion of this state. I suppose a Tulsa NHL team could do the same, but they would have a barrier that OKC did not. Tulsan's as a whole aren't big hockey fans. We at least had a good base of basketball fans through our college teams. There just aren't many Tulsans or Oklahomans that grew up playing hockey and cheering on hockey players.
Quote from: DowntownDan on March 05, 2012, 04:37:36 PM
I suppose a Tulsa NHL team could do the same, but they would have a barrier that OKC did not. Tulsan's as a whole aren't big hockey fans. We at least had a good base of basketball fans through our college teams. There just aren't many Tulsans or Oklahomans that grew up playing hockey and cheering on hockey players.
On this I will disagree somewhat, there are a lot of people in the Tulsa area that my brothers and I played hockey with from the late 60's into the early 80's, and one former Tulsa Oiler Player Andre Champagne, are still in the Tulsa area, and while they may not all be people that would by season tickets, they more than likely still go to Oiler games and would support an NHL team. I know of some that have been involved in hockey in some form with their own kids and still have that passion for the game. I think that if Tulsa got a team that had the potential as an expansion team, or a team being moved for other reasons that is turning the corner and doing well would work. The one thing to keep in mind about the Coyotes is that they are an improving team, and while they are owned by the NHL they have a budget cap that they have to operate under, they can still make changes and trades as long as they operate in that budget. It's possible, but you would have to find some dedicated investors to purchase the team.
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 05, 2012, 09:30:46 PM
On this I will disagree somewhat, there are a lot of people in the Tulsa area that my brothers and I played hockey with from the late 60's into the early 80's, and one former Tulsa Oiler Player Andre Champagne, are still in the Tulsa area, and while they may not all be people that would by season tickets, they more than likely still go to Oiler games and would support an NHL team. I know of some that have been involved in hockey in some form with their own kids and still have that passion for the game. I think that if Tulsa got a team that had the potential as an expansion team, or a team being moved for other reasons that is turning the corner and doing well would work. The one thing to keep in mind about the Coyotes is that they are an improving team, and while they are owned by the NHL they have a budget cap that they have to operate under, they can still make changes and trades as long as they operate in that budget. It's possible, but you would have to find some dedicated investors to purchase the team.
There are a lot more than just one or two former hockey players living in town. I know Garry Unger still has a home here. Doug Lawrence and many, many other former players from this area live here.
I can remember my grandparents taking me to many hockey games during my youth. I can remember you couldn't get a seat downtown when the league was revived. Even on weekday games it was difficult.
Tulsa has a long hockey history. Longer than many might think being in this part of the country. I knew many friends in grade school that played. There are mens leagues. Hockey is played at the junior level, bantam and mite level, high school level here. You just don't hear about it because Oklahoma is football/basketball country. Doesn't mean hockey at that level doesn't exist.
Sure we can...If it was not for Hurricane katrina anniversary passes....OKc would never have had a B-ball group.....Just goes to demonstrate how elements can perform out......No one would have given Okc a opportunity without that group camping outdoors out in Okc for a season.....Okc still hurts though.... Grin