Just read in the Sunday, September 25th Tulsa World, an article that says Bell's Amusing Park is re-opening in latter October 2011 at the Saturday Flea Market at West 51st Street where it meets 57th West Avenue.
It will only be open Saturdays, and will initially open with three or four kiddie rides that will be refurbished after the "park" has re-opened. They are already talking about expansion before they are open.
Comments anyone?
Can we see the business plan?
Are they going to make home made parts again?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20081022_16_A5_Former614189
It's national news apparently.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44669430/ns/travel-news/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44669430/ns/travel-news/)
Quote from: swake on September 25, 2011, 07:20:45 PM
Can we see the business plan?
Oh, you mean this gem:
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
Actually, I believe it's more like this now:
dear
farebord glinpooll wagnar barryhil
I'm sorry but there is just something about Robbie that rubs me the wrong way.
You know, the old Dad had a great idea, vision and direction. hands it off to the wayward son who has no plan or direction other than to sit back and collect money off a business that was built by someone that knew what they were doing and never paid attention to what it took to keep it going.
Daddy started with three kiddie rides but that was back in the day when he was hungry for success and not riding the coattails of another mans idea. Pfff children !
Update: Just read that it was his Grandfather that started the business.
"a couple of kiddie rides" != "amusement park"
Quote from: sgrizzle on September 26, 2011, 10:26:00 AM
"a couple of kiddie rides" != "amusement park"
Come on Grizz, you have kids, throw them a cardboard box and some stuffed animals, and you have an amusement park!
I wish him well anyway. Especially if he can get all that stuff out of Gunboat. If he simply stays true to serving young kids, young families and maintaining his equipment I think he will grow it back again. Locations will come looking for him. In the grandson's defense, the Fairgrounds, and the County, was much different when his grandpa started it.
Now that guy with the Admiral Twin? Not so much.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 11:33:38 AM
I wish him well anyway. Especially if he can get all that stuff out of Gunboat.
Right?! Get that junk out of gunboat. I don't think I would ever let a child I cared very much about ride on that rusty junk, not even a bumper car.
The kids stuff, little coasters, helicopter rides, trucks on tracks, dodgem cars would be okay. Even the Log flume could work. The metal may rust a little but nothing that can't be refurbished and the fiberglass doesn't age badly. However, I heard him say that he intends to re-assemble the Zingo. That would be his Waterloo.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 11:33:38 AM
I wish him well anyway. Especially if he can get all that stuff out of Gunboat. If he simply stays true to serving young kids, young families and maintaining his equipment I think he will grow it back again. Locations will come looking for him. In the grandson's defense, the Fairgrounds, and the County, was much different when his grandpa started it.
Now that guy with the Admiral Twin? Not so much.
What did the Admiral Twin guy do?
He kicks puppies.
Quote from: rdj on September 26, 2011, 01:16:09 PM
He kicks puppies.
He tries to steal girlfriends also. Although that was back when I was 19.
Quote from: swake on September 26, 2011, 01:11:48 PM
What did the Admiral Twin guy do?
You mean besides kicking puppies and chasing other guys' women?
I don't like the guy. He politicked from his ticket booth at the drive-in telling me to be sure and vote against Clinton cause he was going to raise the minimum wage and he would have to close down the theatre. Clinton won, the minimum wage went up and he did well enough to open another theatre in Jenks. I'm sure he hates Obama too.
Then his constantly raising the bar for donations to rebuild his uninsured, burnt down drive-in hit me wrong. Every good businessman knows the value of insurance. He skated. A kids playground was at the base of a wooden, 50 year old, uninsured, fire hazard. It burned down and he now can only re-build it with the help of well meaning former customers. Well, at least its not a government freebie.
Other than that?
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
You mean besides kicking puppies and chasing other guys' women?
I don't like the guy. He politicked from his ticket booth at the drive-in telling me to be sure and vote against Clinton cause he was going to raise the minimum wage and he would have to close down the theatre. Clinton won, the minimum wage went up and he did well enough to open another theatre in Jenks. I'm sure he hates Obama too.
Then his constantly raising the bar for donations to rebuild his uninsured, burnt down drive-in hit me wrong. Every good businessman knows the value of insurance. He skated. A kids playground was at the base of a wooden, 50 year old, uninsured, fire hazard. It burned down and he now can only re-build it with the help of well meaning former customers. Well, at least its not a government freebie.
Other than that?
Snap!
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
You mean besides kicking puppies and chasing other guys' women?
I don't like the guy. He politicked from his ticket booth at the drive-in telling me to be sure and vote against Clinton cause he was going to raise the minimum wage and he would have to close down the theatre. Clinton won, the minimum wage went up and he did well enough to open another theatre in Jenks. I'm sure he hates Obama too.
Then his constantly raising the bar for donations to rebuild his uninsured, burnt down drive-in hit me wrong. Every good businessman knows the value of insurance. He skated. A kids playground was at the base of a wooden, 50 year old, uninsured, fire hazard. It burned down and he now can only re-build it with the help of well meaning former customers. Well, at least its not a government freebie.
Other than that?
I don't think that's the same guy. I thought the fellow that owns it now has had it 10 years or less. The last opportunity to vote for Clinton was in '96. Someone feel free to correct me if they know otherwise.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 02:29:38 PM
You mean besides kicking puppies and chasing other guys' women?
I don't like the guy. He politicked from his ticket booth at the drive-in telling me to be sure and vote against Clinton cause he was going to raise the minimum wage and he would have to close down the theatre. Clinton won, the minimum wage went up and he did well enough to open another theatre in Jenks. I'm sure he hates Obama too.
Then his constantly raising the bar for donations to rebuild his uninsured, burnt down drive-in hit me wrong. Every good businessman knows the value of insurance. He skated. A kids playground was at the base of a wooden, 50 year old, uninsured, fire hazard. It burned down and he now can only re-build it with the help of well meaning former customers. Well, at least its not a government freebie.
Other than that?
You are upset over a comment he made when Clinton was running for president in 1992? Now that's a grudge, it must have been a helluva insult.
I don't know the guy, but how old is Blake Smith? Is he old enough to have owned the place in '92, he doesn't look it in photos online. I also know that as late as the late 80s that the place was owned by General Cinemas because I knew people that worked there back then.
http://www.kiddiepark.net/ Actual amusement park right down the highway for a fun day out...
Not sure if I would take my kids over to the flea market to ride some rides...I don't get how this is a good idea...
I was curious if the miniature backhoe they kept showing Bell on was one of the rides. He didn't look like he ran that terribly well either.
Quote from: zstyles on September 26, 2011, 03:29:07 PM
http://www.kiddiepark.net/ Actual amusement park right down the highway for a fun day out...
Not sure if I would take my kids over to the flea market to ride some rides...I don't get how this is a good idea...
Probably finally got a freebie on the land. Other than the time of setting it up, I bet Robby is out very little. I don't think he's got a whole lot of cash to put into it in the first place. If he did, we wouldn't be having this conversation five years after he packed up from the fairgrounds.
Quote from: swake on September 26, 2011, 03:00:59 PM
You are upset over a comment he made when Clinton was running for president in 1992? Now that's a grudge, it must have been a helluva insult.
I don't know the guy, but how old is Blake Smith? Is he old enough to have owned the place in '92, he doesn't look it in photos online. I also know that as late as the late 80s that the place was owned by General Cinemas because I knew people that worked there back then.
Yes, and it could have been as late as 1996 since my boys would still have been the age to go to a drive in with parents. But yes. You don't badger your customers with your personal politics while they are waiting in line to give you their money. It was arrogant and indulgent.
It was a family operation and from reports in the TW about the opening of Riverwalk Cinema 10 years later was still so. The gentleman whose pic I saw after the fire looked to be the same guy only older. If not him then the story is still accurate as to the owner at that time. But is that the best you can do? Accuse me of an old grudge? That wasn't nearly as important as putting customers, and customers' children at risk with his un-insured, fire hazard operation. Or increasing the cost of replacement once he determined his customers would help pay for his oversight.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 03:38:32 PM
Yes, and it could have been as late as 1996 since my boys would still have been the age to go to a drive in with parents. But yes. You don't badger your customers with your personal politics while they are waiting in line to give you their money. It was arrogant and indulgent.
It was a family operation and from reports in the TW about the opening of Riverwalk Cinema 10 years later was still so. The gentleman whose pic I saw after the fire looked to be the same guy only older. If not him then the story is still accurate as to the owner at that time. But is that the best you can do? Accuse me of an old grudge? That wasn't nearly as important as putting customers, and customers' children at risk with his un-insured, fire hazard operation. Or increasing the cost of replacement once he determined his customers would help pay for his oversight.
He didn't make an oversight. You simply cannot get insurance on a large wood structure like that. No one will touch it.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 03:38:32 PM
Yes, and it could have been as late as 1996 since my boys would still have been the age to go to a drive in with parents. But yes. You don't badger your customers with your personal politics while they are waiting in line to give you their money. It was arrogant and indulgent.
It was a family operation and from reports in the TW about the opening of Riverwalk Cinema 10 years later was still so. The gentleman whose pic I saw after the fire looked to be the same guy only older. If not him then the story is still accurate as to the owner at that time. But is that the best you can do? Accuse me of an old grudge? That wasn't nearly as important as putting customers, and customers' children at risk with his un-insured, fire hazard operation. Or increasing the cost of replacement once he determined his customers would help pay for his oversight.
This guy owned the Admiral Twin in '92 or '96? Really?
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110820_adtwin0820.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=283&articleid=20110820_282_A15_CUTLIN517376
I know for a fact that it was not a family business, at least not in the late 80s. It was corporate owned by General Cinema to at least 1987 or 1988 because I had friends back then in high school that worked for other GC theaters that would have to work there at times on weekends in the summer when it was open.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 26, 2011, 03:40:36 PM
He didn't make an oversight. You simply cannot get insurance on a large wood structure like that. No one will touch it.
Then you buy a bond, you upgrade to metal or you shut down. He has no excuse.
Quote from: swake on September 26, 2011, 03:46:38 PM
This guy owned the Admiral Twin in '92 or '96? Really?
(http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2011/20110820_adtwin0820.jpg)
http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=283&articleid=20110820_282_A15_CUTLIN517376
I know for a fact that it was not a family business, at least not in the late 80s. It was corporate owned by General Cinema to at least 1987 or 1988 because I had friends back then in high school that worked for other GC theaters that would have to work there at times on weekends in the summer when it was open.
Sorry, I won't rely on your friends. I will do some checking though. As far as that pic, well....ever seen something on C-list that looked low mileage then found it to be junk? I can't tell how old he is but he could be in his late thirties and still have been the guy.
Still choose to ignore the suspect way he ran the drive in business? What if your kids were playing on the swings below the screen when it caught fire and caused a mass exodus of cars? Or the way the cost keeps going up on rebuild using donations? Unconscionable to me.
According to a story in the Tulsa World on September 9th of 2010, the Admiral Twin was family owned since 1987. Blake may very well be the guy who took my ticket.
He also admitted that he couldn't insure the property because it was wooden framed. Simply no excuse at all and I doubt a cab company or any other service provider could get by with it. In most businesses, if something is un-insurable its because it is judged to be a poor risk or one that is not measurable and therefor is not offered to the public without disclaimer.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
According to a story in the Tulsa World on September 9th of 2010, the Admiral Twin was family owned since 1987. Blake may very well be the guy who took my ticket.
He also admitted that he couldn't insure the property because it was wooden framed. Simply no excuse at all and I doubt a cab company or any other service provider could get by with it. In most businesses, if something is un-insurable its because it is judged to be a poor risk or one that is not measurable and therefor is not offered to the public without disclaimer.
Structure insurance is strictly for the benefit of the owner and wouldn't have kept it from going up in flames. As a business owner, there is no requirement you insure your structures unless it's mortgaged and your lender requires it. Your building is generally not considered to be a hazard to others, though your actions or inactions in maintaining it could be. That's what liability insurance is for. Just like a vehicle. You have the option to buy property insurance to protect you and or your lender from hazards and you have liability insurance to protect others from your negligence operating the vehicle or if it slips out of gear, etc.
As well, Blake had no more reason to expect his screen would go up in flames with children playing near it than you have an expectation for your furnace to blow up when you are having a holiday party with 30 guests in your house.
Relax a little, spontaneous combustion happens ;)
Lloyd's will insure anything....
Wittle Robbie needs to get up on the Carney biz and take his show on the road....
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 11:33:38 AM
If he simply stays true to serving young kids, young families and maintaining his equipment
hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhabwahahhahahahahhahbwahbwahbwahhahahahahh *gasp* hahhahaahahahhahahahahhahahhah *snort*
Quote from: Conan71 on September 26, 2011, 04:32:18 PM
Structure insurance is strictly for the benefit of the owner and wouldn't have kept it from going up in flames. As a business owner, there is no requirement you insure your structures unless it's mortgaged and your lender requires it. Your building is generally not considered to be a hazard to others, though your actions or inactions in maintaining it could be. That's what liability insurance is for. Just like a vehicle. You have the option to buy property insurance to protect you and or your lender from hazards and you have liability insurance to protect others from your negligence operating the vehicle or if it slips out of gear, etc.
As well, Blake had no more reason to expect his screen would go up in flames with children playing near it than you have an expectation for your furnace to blow up when you are having a holiday party with 30 guests in your house.
Relax a little, spontaneous combustion happens ;)
Take that argument to heart, businessmen, if you dare! A reasonable man, or businessman, would or should, have plenty of reason to believe that a wooden structure over 50 years old, with wiring that didn't even require grounded plugs when it was constructed, might be a fire hazard. I would relish being on that civil suit jury.
This is not a personal structure that he owns free and clear. This is a profit making business holding itself out to the public as safe and well maintained. He has a legal obligation to ensure their safety. Insurance may make a structure safer because they inspect such properties to make sure their exposure is not too extreme. So, no, insurance per se does not keep a building from burning but an insured structure is less likely to burn down than one that is not.
Let me give you a concrete example. I operated a tour bus for a little while in an old 60's vintage bus. At the time I considered buying an English Double Decker bus but finding insurance for them was difficult since some of them had been driven through underpasses that skimmed the top off of them and cost lives in California. The insurance company I used refused to insure them. If I had paid cash for the bus, it seated less than 30 passengers and didn't have air brakes, I could have operated it myself without insurance or inspection to shuttle people to my boats. Of course, had I skimmed the top off and killed people< i"m in jail right now!
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 05:22:11 PM
Take that argument to heart, businessmen, if you dare! A reasonable man, or businessman, would or should, have plenty of reason to believe that a wooden structure over 50 years old, with wiring that didn't even require grounded plugs when it was constructed, might be a fire hazard. I would relish being on that civil suit jury.
This is not a personal structure that he owns free and clear. This is a profit making business holding itself out to the public as safe and well maintained. He has a legal obligation to ensure their safety. Insurance may make a structure safer because they inspect such properties to make sure their exposure is not too extreme. So, no, insurance per se does not keep a building from burning but an insured structure is less likely to burn down than one that is not.
Let me give you a concrete example. I operated a tour bus for a little while in an old 60's vintage bus. At the time I considered buying an English Double Decker bus but finding insurance for them was difficult since some of them had been driven through underpasses that skimmed the top off of them and cost lives in California. The insurance company I used refused to insure them. If I had paid cash for the bus, it seated less than 30 passengers and didn't have air brakes, I could have operated it myself without insurance or inspection to shuttle people to my boats. Of course, had I skimmed the top off and killed people< i"m in jail right now!
If you negligently drive a 13ft. tall bus under a 12 ft. underpass that's negligent homicide and yes you'd wind up in jail. Little kids could die in a single decker tour bus if someone crashes into it your you run it off a bridge. Oh No!
Property owners generally don't wind up in jail for negligent homicide when someone dies in or around their structure unless they intentionally set the fire. You make it sound like he's some sort of vicious felon when all he was trying to do was maintain a nostalgic Tulsa icon in operational condition and make a living at it. He probably never imagined that low voltage wiring in steel conduit would have ever presented a fire hazard.
Quote from: Conan71 on September 26, 2011, 05:43:06 PM
If you negligently drive a 13ft. tall bus under a 12 ft. underpass that's negligent homicide and yes you'd wind up in jail. Little kids could die in a single decker tour bus if someone crashes into it your you run it off a bridge. Oh No!
Property owners generally don't wind up in jail for negligent homicide when someone dies in or around their structure unless they intentionally set the fire. You make it sound like he's some sort of vicious felon when all he was trying to do was maintain a nostalgic Tulsa icon in operational condition and make a living at it. He probably never imagined that low voltage wiring in steel conduit would have ever presented a fire hazard.
I knew I had mislead you with the last sentence trying to be humorous. First, I am not a lawyer. Just some college classes to enlighten us budding businessmen. But, my understanding is that yes, you are still liable, even though not directly negligent, when operating a bus or operating a drive in movie and a mishap occurs. Even if you did not start the fire. In fact, the knowledge that an insurance company would not cover your property is prima facia evidence that the property is probably inherently dangerous. The rule is usually, "what would a reasonable man expect?" I think if an insurance company won't cover you, your building is over 50 years old and made of wood and hasn't been inspected in years (iirc), a reasonable man might expect that it could catch fire or collapse from termites. I'd take that one to court. Whether or not it was a negligent homicide might rest in explicit knowledge of any defects. Reckless disregard.
I don't think he was vicious or committed a felony but, I don't hold him in as high a regard as you do. He was taking an unnecessary risk to save money. Same reason he didn't want the minimum wage raised. And as far as the wiring goes, I don't know if it was low voltage to operate warning lights at that height. Unless you think 110v is low. And the wiring at that time, may or may not have been in conduit. Not required if it was in an enclosed wall.
I certainly don't think he deserves any hero status as protector of a nostalgic icon.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 07:11:10 PM
I certainly don't think he deserves any hero status as protector of a nostalgic icon.
you mean the nostalgic icon that burned to the ground? "protector" must not mean what I think it does.
Wetman, sorry but your argument is just goofy. You don't like the Blake guy because 15-20 years ago someone that may or may not have been him insulted Clinton. Ok, I agree that it's bad form for anyone in a place of business to spout politics to strangers but it makes no sense to knock the Smith guy all these years later for it and in the same post you praise Robbie Bell's business acumen.
The Bell family are well known Birchers active in the local Republican party. Robbie's mother is chair of the county Republican party and an obvious hypocrite because she is so publically vehemently against basically all public funding for anything while her family has their hand out to local governments wanting taxpayers to rebuild Bells. The Bell family, no matter what the county did wrong, ran Bell's into the ground. It was a mess there at the end and had been for years, there's no arguing that.
This Smith guy owns a real chain of three movie theaters and seems to be legitimately trying to reopen. Compare that to Robbie who has the Zingo for sale on Ebay. I was upset how Bell's was treated and am sad they are gone. It would have been best if they had been forced to take on a business partner or something constructive by the county instead of what happened but the Bell family has said many things that have turned out to be at best more hope than truth and at worst some real baldface ridiculous lies. Like they were selling the Zingo but not the plans. Really?
In a Tulsa Today article it says that Blake bought it in 2000. It seems he bought it from his father. I refuse to link to that site, you can find it on your own if you want. General Cinemas died before well 2000 so I don't know when it was sold between the late 80s and 2000, I didn't find the article you found.
Quote from: AquaMan on September 26, 2011, 07:11:10 PM
I certainly don't think he deserves any hero status as protector of a nostalgic icon.
I completely agree with this.
Quote from: swake on September 27, 2011, 12:14:21 PM
Wetman, sorry but your argument is just goofy. You don't like the Blake guy because 15-20 years ago someone that may or may not have been him insulted Clinton. Ok, I agree that it's bad form for anyone in a place of business to spout politics to strangers but it makes no sense to knock the Smith guy all these years later for it and in the same post you praise Robbie Bell's business acumen.
The Bell family are well known Birchers active in the local Republican party. Robbie's mother is chair of the county Republican party and an obvious hypocrite because she is so publically vehemently against basically all public funding for anything while her family has their hand out to local governments wanting taxpayers to rebuild Bells. The Bell family, no matter what the county did wrong, ran Bell's into the ground. It was a mess there at the end and had been for years, there's no arguing that.
This Smith guy owns a real chain of three movie theaters and seems to be legitimately trying to reopen. Compare that to Robbie who has the Zingo for sale on Ebay. I was upset how Bell's was treated and am sad they are gone. It would have been best if they had been forced to take on a business partner or something constructive by the county instead of what happened but the Bell family has said many things that have turned out to be at best more hope than truth and at worst some real baldface ridiculous lies. Like they were selling the Zingo but not the plans. Really?
In a Tulsa Today article it says that Blake bought it in 2000. It seems he bought it from his father. I refuse to link to that site, you can find it on your own if you want. General Cinemas died before well 2000 so I don't know when it was sold between the late 80s and 2000, I didn't find the article you found.
Swaaaake, I'm not arguing anything. My personality may be pretty goofy though. I asked my wife if she remembered the time we took the kids to the drive-in and a guy who said he was the owner spoke to us. She said, "You mean that jerk who complained about Clinton and the minimum wage?" So I guess it had an impact on her too. The more I look at the guy, the more I think it was him but that could just be mental. The article specifically stated they owned it since 1987 and I got that on a casual Google search of the words "Admiral Twin Drive In Fire" which linked to the TW article. More importantly and something you refuse to grasp, is, I don't like the way the guy ran his business. I am suspicious of the constantly changing cost of building a new one. I don't know him enough to know if I don't like him personally, I just know his business practices offend me. That and a buck fitty, gets you a ride on an MTTA bus.
Second, I never praised the Bell's business acumen. Frankly, I suspect Robbie was in over his head with the county. I loved Bell's but he didn't plan very well for its preservation. Tough job for anyone. I simply noted that he could make the thing work again if he kept it small, targeted and safe.
Lastly, you are emphasizing what I intended to communicate all along.
Mixing politics with business is a bad idea. Especially when it comes from the business to the customer. I ate once in Nelson's Buffeteria and customers, including Nelson, were jumping up and yelling derogatory remarks at hearings that were being chaired by Ted Kennedy on the TV set there. First off, don't put your damn TV on a political channel while people are eating!! But yelling out political garbage?!! Dumb.
When you talk about the Bell's as Birchers or not logging on to Tulsa World, that's what you're doing. Business wise, I don't care what politics the Bell's embrace any more than I do his religion. I knew his family politics when he operated the park but still loved it. It had nothing to do with my comments on their current plans or how they ran their last business. I may truly despise the Domino's Pizza CEO for publicly supporting Bush, but I still occasionally eat their pizza. Bad form for the CEO, pretty below average pizza, but still....