Roaring through Minnesota, two massive buses, dubbed The Spookymobiles accompanied by dozens of support vehicles. Quite a spectacle!
No plans, no designs, just a delivery of fault to others.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the misery tour.
The magical misery tour is waiting to take you away,
Waiting to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up WE'VE GOT EVERYTHING YOU NEED, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up SATISFACTION GUARANTEED, roll up for the misery tour.
The magical misery tour is hoping to take you away,
Hoping to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the misery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the misery tour.
The magical misery tour is coming to take you away,
Coming to take you away.
The magical misery tour is dying to take you away,
Dying to take you away, take you away.
You don't sing well. Graphics may be your strength. ;)
Quote from: AquaMan on August 16, 2011, 04:09:26 PM
You don't sing well. Graphics may be your strength. ;)
Dude! I'm an awesome singer.
Hey, guess what? There were several Luxury Motor-coach builders interested in fulfilling the administrations request for these two vehicles (estimated at 2.2 million dollars).
The company that the administration chose. . .Quebec-based Prevost Motors.
They are nice. I would have put some cool graphics on them, like an american flag or perhaps a maple leaf.
I'm very interested to see how this tour goes as the president flaunts his new Canadian vehicles throughout the Midwest.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 17, 2011, 10:04:19 AM
Hey, guess what? There were several Luxury Motor-coach builders interested in fulfilling the administrations request for these two vehicles (estimated at 2.2 million dollars).
The company that the administration chose. . .Quebec-based Prevost Motors.
They are nice. I would have put some cool graphics on them, like an american flag or perhaps a maple leaf.
I'm very interested to see how this tour goes as the president flaunts his new Canadian vehicles throughout the Midwest.
Yeah, I saw that on Fox news this morning too. Good pickup.
I notice you also never researched where the other candidates busses were made. Did you? Neither of you seemed interested in security issues related to domestic construction either. Prevost busses are high quality and in use all over the country. No doubt this one was a choice of the Secret Service and retrofitted in America. Not going to be made public though. Did you consider that? Hardly worth pursuing those questions when you have such a juicy headline though.
Perhaps Americans should insist that we all ride in BlueBirds. Where was McCain's bus made back in 2008? A VanHool wasn't it? Where was Perry's bus made? Palin's?
Quote from: AquaMan on August 17, 2011, 10:14:31 AM
Yeah, I saw that on Fox news this morning too. Good pickup.
I notice you also never researched where the other candidates busses were made. Did you? Neither of you seemed interested in security issues related to domestic construction either. Prevost busses are high quality and in use all over the country. No doubt this one was a choice of the Secret Service and retrofitted in America. Not going to be made public though. Did you consider that? Hardly worth pursuing those questions when you have such a juicy headline though.
Perhaps Americans should insist that we all ride in BlueBirds. Where was McCain's bus made back in 2008? A VanHool wasn't it? Where was Perry's bus made? Palin's?
I just thought it a bit entertaining that he's touring factories and vehicle plants in the Midwest in a Canadian vehicle. Both sad and ironic.
. . .and no, I did not consider where other candidates vehicles are made, because they are not the President of this country, and according to the administration, this is not a "campaign activity," as it is taxpayer funded.
This is an American President traveling the country to promote american industry in a Canadian vehicle. You have to see the humor in that. :D
It's kinda like the President of GM driving a Honda.
. . .Is this the same guy that had a "Made in America" provision in his stimulus bill? ;)
But you know the truth. Danged near every product we use, every day has elements from other countries. The president of GM oversees plants in other countries that build parts for their cars or entire cars for use in our country. Sometimes that is good for us, sometimes not, but global markets are a reality. Why choose his bus for scrutiny?
I find less and less humor in America losing its competitive edge to the likes of China when we are perfectly capable. These are not American policy decisions that drive quality down and move work away from America, its corporate ignorance. I saw a Chinese supervisor of manufacturing being interviewed on PBS last week. He responded to the complaint that Chinese goods were inferior to American goods and only were in demand because of their lower cost. He didn't hesitate. He said, "We can produce better goods and for very little more cost. American business is only interested in the lowest cost, not quality."
Add that to the chairman of Cisco last week interviewed on 60minutes who moved their operations to Ireland because they only have a 12% corporate tax in Ireland. He objected to America having a 35% tax rate and said his stockholders demanded they move. Well, Cisco, your lack of patriotism is hanging out and you seem to be proud of that. Did Cisco ever pay 35%? Who knows, the 60minutes reporter never asked or researched that. What she did ask was, "Would 20% tax rate bring you back?" to which he was evasive, "It would be a start".
These ex-patriot companies love our way of life and its protections. They just don't want to pay for it. You think any of the candidates are using Cisco routers? Bet on it.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 17, 2011, 11:26:52 AM.....They just don't want to pay for it. You think any of the candidates are using Cisco routers? Bet on it.
Not me, I use Linksys...wait, what?
Cool!
Quote from: AquaMan on August 17, 2011, 11:26:52 AM
Did Cisco ever pay 35%? Who knows, the 60minutes reporter never asked or researched that. What she did ask was, "Would 20% tax rate bring you back?" to which he was evasive, "It would be a start".
These ex-patriot companies love our way of life and its protections. They just don't want to pay for it. You think any of the candidates are using Cisco routers? Bet on it.
Bet they still paid more taxes than GE...
You know, that corporation whose CEO was appointed head of President's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness...
Quote from: AquaMan on August 17, 2011, 11:26:52 AM
Add that to the chairman of Cisco last week interviewed on 60minutes who moved their operations to Ireland because they only have a 12% corporate tax in Ireland. He objected to America having a 35% tax rate and said his stockholders demanded they move. Well, Cisco, your lack of patriotism is hanging out and you seem to be proud of that. Did Cisco ever pay 35%? Who knows, the 60minutes reporter never asked or researched that. What she did ask was, "Would 20% tax rate bring you back?" to which he was evasive, "It would be a start".
These ex-patriot companies love our way of life and its protections. They just don't want to pay for it. You think any of the candidates are using Cisco routers? Bet on it.
If the war is fought on tax rate alone, there's no way anyone wins. Theoretically, Cisco could choose to locate in Somalia where the national corporate tax (I assume) is 0%. But lowest-price-always-wins isn't axiomatic. It doesn't always hold true in a given marketplace. Price(tax) should be generally pegged to value, so that you get something for the amount of money you're paying. In this context, Cisco has really made a value decision, not simply a price decision. It's obvious that they can pay less in taxes and get "more" than here -- what's not clear is what that "more" really is. Is it better workers? Cheaper workers? Access to a supply chain or to markets? A more entrepreneurial spirit? A more supine government? There are all kinds of things to weigh here, and dollars to donuts it's not simply a straight balance sheet comparison.
To me, the real problem with our corporate tax rates isn't so much how expensive we are (or how high the rates are in comparison to other countries); the problem is what we offer for the money. We don't offer steadily upgraded infrastructure; we don't successfully educate our workforce nor do we make sure the workforce has useful specializations; we don't offer universal healthcare, and instead foist the cost of the health of workers onto businesses; we offer a brand difference that we are purposely dismantling piece by piece piece (the debt ceiling fight is but the crowning achievement to-date of that effort); our payouts to allies and trade partners in the form of military and foreign aid is declining as well. All of these things have eroded the value of the taxes companies pay in to the kitty. In some senses, it's no wonder that multinationals like Cisco would re-evaluate their relationship to our country.
Quote from: AquaMan on August 17, 2011, 11:26:52 AM
Did Cisco ever pay 35%? Who knows, the 60minutes reporter never asked or researched that. What she did ask was, "Would 20% tax rate bring you back?" to which he was evasive, "It would be a start".
My guess would be somewhere between 20% and 35%.
The Cisco exec said that any company that didn't leave the US for lower tax rates right now was just stupid. How about that? Ford is stupid. Microsoft? Stupid. Apple? Stupid. That is the level of corporate leadership in America right now and it is very distressing.
BTW, there isn't much infrastructure in Ireland. No real highway program, not much in the way of military defense. Truly, I suspect Cisco could locate in a basement off islands in the South Pacific and pay nothing. Pay a few engineers and outsource construction to China, transfer funds to Swiss bank accounts for the stockholders and look pretty dang smart.
And keep in mind through all this that taxes and corporate mandates like Obamacare don't kill American jobs, people. Let's just keep on creating our own reality, it's working so well at reducing the unemployment rate!
That happens with technology companies. It's easier and cheaper to employ off US soil. There are a myriad of reasons, but the bottom line is that it costs less money and allows them to remain competitive.
Some companies stay on principal, or because they own enough of the market share to mitigate those expenses. You can't blame a country for seeking profit. That's the goal.
I suppose you can't blame the President either for seeking the best product at the best price. If he had chosen a domestic company, he would have probably had to settle for inferior craftsmanship, or a more expensive product.
I think it would have been nice for him to show up in a couple of vehicles that could serve as examples of his dedication to the American economy, but it's not really that important. Certainly not as important as the need for high quality transportation at a reasonable price, after all he's only using these buses for one more day, then it's off the the vineyards.
It's good to see him out among his people.
Quote from: Gaspar on August 17, 2011, 01:27:31 PM
That happens with technology companies. It's easier and cheaper to employ off US soil. There are a myriad of reasons, but the bottom line is that it costs less money and allows them to remain competitive.
Some companies stay on principal, or because they own enough of the market share to mitigate those expenses. You can't blame a country for seeking profit. That's the goal.
I suppose you can't blame the President either for seeking the best product at the best price. If he had chosen a domestic company, he would have probably had to settle for inferior craftsmanship, or a more expensive product.
I think it would have been nice for him to show up in a couple of vehicles that could serve as examples of his dedication to the American economy, but it's not really that important. Certainly not as important as the need for high quality transportation at a reasonable price, after all he's only using these buses for one more day, then it's off the the vineyards.
It's good to see him out among his people.
A friend of mine worked for GM in Mansfield, Ohio right out of college as an EE. After seeing a Honda Accord savaged by some union tools in the parking lot at the plant, he got the picture right away that driving anything but a GM product was frowned upon but to drive anything built by a foreign competitor on site was akin to spitting on hallowed ground.
Certainly he could have toured in a Newell which is built in Miami, Ok. and considered on par with Prevost. Or he could have not wasted taxpayer money on a PR tour to benefit his campaign in the first place.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 17, 2011, 01:40:58 PM
A friend of mine worked for GM in Mansfield, Ohio right out of college as an EE. After seeing a Honda Accord savaged by some union tools in the parking lot at the plant, he got the picture right away that driving anything but a GM product was frowned upon but to drive anything built by a foreign competitor on site was akin to spitting on hallowed ground.
Certainly he could have toured in a Newell which is built in Miami, Ok. and considered on par with Prevost. Or he could have not wasted taxpayer money on a PR tour to benefit his campaign in the first place.
Can you imagine the strategy meeting on this one. Last week in a basement somewhere, two campaign strategists strategerize ~~~~
Neil:"Ok, dude, I've got it, I've got it. . .We buy a couple of tricked out buses and we have him travel around the Midwest sayin stuff like 'I feel your pain.' That smile worked for Clinton all day dude!"
Bob:"Dude, they will love that. He can like use the whole 'Home & Change' thing again, and the people will feel he's really close to them because he's ridin around in a bus and stuff."
Neil: "I think it's 'Hope & Change'.
Bob: "Oh yeah, whatdid I say? Home?
Neil: "That's wak dude."
Bob: "So he just zooms around makin all kinds a crazy unemployed friends, then zooms off like Superman in his magic bus."
Neil: "Where does he zoom to?"
Bob: "The airport you idiot, then to the vineyards for some crazy Robin Leach vacation smile."
Neil: "That is so awesome, we're like the best stragerists."
Bob: "I know man, I know."
So... how about the Bush "Yes, America Can" bus tour before the 2004 election?
As for the fact that the buses are not "made in America". Even though the President is the President, his procurement staff are required to follow the Federal Acquisition Regulation, just like the rest of us. You can't merely toss out a competitor because they are a non domestic end product. If they provide a significantly better product at a better value, and they can put pen to paper and show you how and why, they can still be the successful offeror. Even if there is a product in the states that is on Par, they need to be able to write a good proposal and prove how good they are.
Oh and Bush's buses were manufactured by the same company...
But you should also note that all of the support vehicles were American made.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on August 17, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
As for the fact that the buses are not "made in America". Even though the President is the President, his procurement staff are required to follow the Federal Acquisition Regulation, just like the rest of us. You can't merely toss out a competitor because they are a non domestic end product.
I deal with government RFQ's all the time, local, state, and Fed.
They most certainly can. Any RFQ can specify made in USA only. Under those conditions any bid for a comparable foreign product will be tossed unless there is no US made equivalent. There's no requirement I'm aware of which states every RFQ must request U.S. made goods though.
At the rate we are going, there won't be US made equivalents on many items in the next 20 years. :(
Quote from: Conan71 on August 17, 2011, 03:38:17 PM
They most certainly can. Any RFQ can specify made in USA only. Under those conditions any bid for a comparable foreign product will be tossed unless there is no US made equivalent. There's no requirement I'm aware of which states every RFQ must request U.S. made goods though.
At the rate we are going, there won't be US made equivalents on many items in the next 20 years. :(
Local and State don't really matter in my mind considering it deals with an entirely different set of rules. The Buy American Act is what sets the rules on how you deal with domestic vs non domestic. If you have competing domestic vs non domestic end products you still have to award to the best value. If the non domestic product still provides the best value, after inclusion of an "adder" (a % that you add to the proposed price and then compare to the domestic products) you will be making award to them. Unless they are in a restricted country. Don't even get me started on Trade agreement countries, that opens an entirely different set of rules...
If you have seen an RFQ (Fed) with a restriction to made in america only, I would be interested in seeing it. I have been doing this for 10+ years on the federal side (Pencils to Planes) and I have only seen 1 instance where there were issues and that was AFTER award (Army berets were initially awarded to a UK company who was outsourcing the manufacturing to China... HUGE political snafu).
And I have found something I agree with you on... that last statement you made is very much the case.
Quote from: JCnOwasso on August 18, 2011, 09:26:35 AM
Local and State don't really matter in my mind considering it deals with an entirely different set of rules. The Buy American Act is what sets the rules on how you deal with domestic vs non domestic. If you have competing domestic vs non domestic end products you still have to award to the best value. If the non domestic product still provides the best value, after inclusion of an "adder" (a % that you add to the proposed price and then compare to the domestic products) you will be making award to them. Unless they are in a restricted country. Don't even get me started on Trade agreement countries, that opens an entirely different set of rules...
If you have seen an RFQ (Fed) with a restriction to made in america only, I would be interested in seeing it. I have been doing this for 10+ years on the federal side (Pencils to Planes) and I have only seen 1 instance where there were issues and that was AFTER award (Army berets were initially awarded to a UK company who was outsourcing the manufacturing to China... HUGE political snafu).
And I have found something I agree with you on... that last statement you made is very much the case.
JC, industrial/large commercial heating is my bag and that's where I see the buy American set-aside quite frequently as well as women, minority-owned, hub-zone, etc.
Buy American doesn't necessarily mean that it is required to be American Made... Just means that an American product will have a preference. However, depending on the Agency issuing the order, they may have differing regulations.
Trade agreements shot alot of that to hell in a handbasket though, makes my job "fun".
With Small Business set-aside, there is no getting around that. Woman-Owned, SDVOB, Hubzone, 8(a) etc... if it is set aside for that, you can't get it unless you are classified as that. I really should put my service disabled vet status to work.
Does this thread seem thin on substance? Does anybody recognize the thread title came from Rush Limbaugh's show?
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 18, 2011, 09:20:56 PM
Does anybody recognize the thread title came from Rush Limbaugh's show?
Does anybody really care?
You don't think intelligent people would like to know where this discussion originates?
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 18, 2011, 09:20:56 PM
Does this thread seem thin on substance? Does anybody recognize the thread title came from Rush Limbaugh's show?
What have you been doing listening to Limpbaugh? That's brain rot, man!
Quote from: Conan71 on August 18, 2011, 09:53:22 PM
What have you been doing listening to Limpbaugh? That's brain rot, man!
It's quite entertaining....and Bortz (sp?) is even better.
We must keep our enemies close....
Quote from: Teatownclown on August 18, 2011, 09:20:56 PM
Does this thread seem thin on substance? Does anybody recognize the thread title came from Rush Limbaugh's show?
Actually it's a Mitt Romney quote from MSNBC. :D
Quote from: Gaspar on August 19, 2011, 07:46:40 AM
Actually it's a Mitt Romney quote from MSNBC. :D
Teatownclown spoke an untruth?
He must be listening to Fox News too much. ;D