The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

 If these chemicals are so safe, let's see Congress add them to their own drinking water.

Fracking Chemicals Cited in Congressional Report Stay Underground
http://www.thewashingtoncurrent.com/2011/04/fracking-chemicals-cited-in.html

How deep?

I watched this new show recently and they were also Fracking. It is a procedure of drilling so far down, then putting in concrete so the drill bit will spear off to the side of the concrete and drill sideways into the gas pocket.
Kind of interesting how they were doing it. But it sure was giving them hell to do it.

Quote from: DolfanBob on April 21, 2011, 02:52:51 PM
I watched this new show recently and they were also Fracking. It is a procedure of drilling so far down, then putting in concrete so the drill bit will spear off to the side of the concrete and drill sideways into the gas pocket.
Kind of interesting how they were doing it. But it sure was giving them hell to do it.

It was once considered criminal to drill horizontal into another property.

I would have no problem with the Frack if there were regulations with stiff oversight and away from any water tables.

What's in that juice?

Quote from: Teatownclown on April 21, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
It was once considered criminal to drill horizontal into another property.

I would have no problem with the Frack if there were regulations with stiff oversight and away from any water tables.

What's in that juice?

There's major changes and much safer technology on the horizon.  And it's coming from somewhere right around these parts.

Quote from: Teatownclown on April 21, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
It was once considered criminal to drill horizontal into another property.

Let's drill to Cuba.

Quote from: Teatownclown on April 21, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
It was once considered criminal to drill horizontal into another property.

You mean like drilling into a neighbor's wife?

Quote from: DolfanBob on Today at 01:52:51 pm I watched this new show recently and they were also Fracking. It is a procedure of drilling so far down, then putting in concrete so the drill bit will spear off to the side of the concrete and drill sideways into the gas pocket.  Kind of interesting how they were doing it. But it sure was giving them hell to do it.

That sounds more like horiztonal drilling.  After a well is drilled you usually perforate the gas zones, which shoots little holes into the casing and openings up the rocks/shals where the gas zone is.  After that, you "frac", by pumping chemicals and water or gels into the wellbore which flows into the holes you created by perf'ng and the holes the gas come out of are extended so you get more gas out of your hole.  This is happening several thousand feet (like 12,000' in the case of the woodford shale here in Oklahoma) below ground.

When doing a permit for drilling wells, you must check the depth of water aquifers in the area, the most I've seen them go down to are 1,000'.  I have a hard time believing what is going on that far below the water table is actually hurting our water.  I think its just more chicken little.  And OKlahomans for sure should be educating themselves, oil & gas creates enormous numbers of jobs and revenues for our state.

I was in Midland for a business trip and the crew that films Black Gold was staying at my hotel, it was very interesting to talk with them, several of whom had also filmed the Deadliest Catch!

Quote from: Conan71 on April 21, 2011, 03:36:00 PM
You mean like drilling into a neighbor's wife?

Hydraulic fracturing has been used in the US since the 40's, and the US Gov't expiremented with 30kiloton nuclear bombs in CO in the 70's to try an get at natural gas deposits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fracturing)

QuoteThe final PNE blast took place on 17 May 1973, under Fawn Creek, 76.4 km north of Grand Junction, Colorado. Three 30 kiloton detonations took place simultaneously at depths of 1,758, 1,875, and 2,015 meters. It was the third nuclear explosion experiment intended to stimulate the flow of natural gas from "tight" formation gas fields. Industrial participants included the El Paso Natural Gas Company for the Gasbuggy test; Austral Oil Company; CER Geonuclear Corporation for the Rulison test; and CER Geonuclear Corporation for the Rio Blanco test.




If it was successful, plans called for the use of hundreds of specialized nuclear explosives in the western Rockies gas fields. The previous two tests had indicated that the produced natural gas would be too radioactive for safe use. After the test it was found that the blast cavities had not connected as hoped, and the resulting gas still contained unacceptable levels of radionuclides.[4]

By 1974, approximately $82 million had been invested in the nuclear gas stimulation technology program. It was estimated that even after 25 years of gas production of all the natural gas deemed recoverable, that only 15 to 40 percent of the investment could be recovered.

Also, the concept that stove burners in California might soon emit trace amounts of blast radionuclides into family homes did not sit well with the general public. The contaminated well gas was never channeled into commercial supply lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plowshare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plowshare)

Quote from: dbacks fan on April 21, 2011, 05:21:46 PM
Hydraulic fracturing has been used in the US since the 40's, and the US Gov't expiremented with 30kiloton nuclear bombs in CO in the 70's to try an get at natural gas deposits.

There are significant differences between what we were drilling into in the 40s (and how) and what we're drilling into these days. The formations are much thinner and are only economical to produce precisely because they drill through it horizontally for a few miles. They're also much less porous, thus the fracking.

Some folks are blowing the risks way out of proportion, unfortunately. Are there problems? Sure, but that's more to do with a lack of regulation requiring companies to recover all the fluids and dispose of them properly. Most do it right because it's good business in the long run, but there are a few who play fast and loose and are ruining it for all the good operators.

Quote from: nathanm on April 22, 2011, 12:38:05 AM
There are significant differences between what we were drilling into in the 40s (and how) and what we're drilling into these days. The formations are much thinner and are only economical to produce precisely because they drill through it horizontally for a few miles. They're also much less porous, thus the fracking.

Some folks are blowing the risks way out of proportion, unfortunately. Are there problems? Sure, but that's more to do with a lack of regulation requiring companies to recover all the fluids and dispose of them properly. Most do it right because it's good business in the long run, but there are a few who play fast and loose and are ruining it for all the good operators.

GasLand (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558250/)

I saw this movie on HBO a couple of months ago.  While I'm sure what the subjects in this documentary go through are extreme (three families I believe were visited by the producer/director of the movie who could, literally, light their running well water faucets aflame due to the NG seepage into their well water).

And I usually don't side on the case of moonbatism, but in this case, where there some smoke, there might be fire.  No pun intended.

Well lookey here!

Documents: Industry Privately Skeptical of Shale Gas
Over the past six months, The New York Times reviewed thousands of pages of documents related to shale gas, including hundreds of industry e-mails, internal agency documents and reports by analysts. A selection of these documents is included here; names and identifying information have been redacted to protect the confidentiality of sources, many of whom were not authorized by their employers to communicate with The Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/us/natural-gas-drilling-down-documents-4-intro.html?ref=us
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/us/natural-gas-drilling-down-documents-4.html#document/p1/

So far, I read a bunch of speculation and without names being revealed, there's ZERO accountability to their statements.  If oil companies want to blow their profits on uneconomical shale drilling, BFD.  It's keeping people in high-paying jobs.

Only issue I've got with it is harmful fracking practices.  If they use the cleaner available technologies, again, BFD.

I suspect a lot of current oil profits are being used to drill in these formations and the gas will not be extracted until gas prices come up.  JMO.

The problem with the shale plays is that the flow falls off very, very quickly. (and I have the royalty checks to prove it. ;))

Quote from: nathanm on June 27, 2011, 01:34:00 PM
The problem with the shale plays is that the flow falls off very, very quickly. (and I have the royalty checks to prove it. ;))

You sure it's not being shut in due to a stagnant economy?

Quote from: Teatownclown on June 27, 2011, 01:35:43 PM
You sure it's not being shut in due to a stagnant economy?

Yeah, they're still producing, just at a much lower rate than last year. It's the same story when you frack a traditional well, it's just that there's not such a large initial flow in the shale gas plays.

Quote from: nathanm on June 27, 2011, 01:39:45 PM
Yeah, they're still producing, just at a much lower rate than last year. It's the same story when you frack a traditional well, it's just that there's not such a large initial flow in the shale gas plays.

That was the point in many of those leaked anonymous documents. I spoke with a land man in ND last week and he was freaking about the rising flood waters in Minot. Got my head straight and life in perspective.

Quote from: Teatownclown on June 27, 2011, 01:35:43 PM
You sure it's not being shut in due to a stagnant economy?

That's my take on it.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/environment/story/2011-12-08/epa-fracking-pollution/51745004/1
EPA: Fracking may cause groundwater pollution

CHEYENNE, Wyo. – CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) — The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency announced Thursday for the first time that fracking — a controversial method of improving the productivity of oil and gas wells — may be to blame for causing groundwater pollution.
The draft finding could have significant implications while states try to determine how to regulate the process. Environmentalists characterized the report as a significant development though it met immediate criticism from the oil and gas industry and a U.S. senator.
The practice is called hydraulic fracturing and involves pumping pressurized water, sand and chemicals underground to open fissures and improve the flow of oil or gas to the surface.
The EPA's found that compounds likely associated with fracking chemicals had been detected in the groundwater beneath Pavillion, a small community in central Wyoming where residents say their well water reeks of chemicals. Health officials last year advised them not to drink their water after the EPA found low levels hydrocarbons in their wells.
The EPA announcement could add to the controversy over fracking, which has played a large role in opening up many gas reserves, including the Marcellus Shale in the eastern U.S. in recent years.
The industry has long contended that fracking is safe, but environmentalists and some residents who live near drilling sites say it has poisoned groundwater.
The EPA said its announcement is the first step in a process of opening up its findings for review by the public and other scientists.
"EPA's highest priority remains ensuring that Pavillion residents have access to safe drinking water," said Jim Martin, EPA regional administrator in Denver. "We look forward to having these findings in the draft report informed by a transparent and public review process."
The EPA also emphasized that the findings are specific to the Pavillion area. The agency said the fracking that occurred in Pavillion differed from fracking methods used elsewhere in regions with different geological characteristics.
The fracking occurred below the level of the drinking water aquifer and close to water wells, the EPA said. Elsewhere, drilling is more remote and fracking occurs much deeper than the level of groundwater that would normally be used.
Environmentalists welcomed the news of the EPA report, calling it an important turning point in the fracking debate.
"This is an important first indication there are potential problems with fracking that can impact domestic water wells. It's I think a clarion call to industry to make sure they take a great deal of care in their drilling practices," said Steve Jones with the Wyoming Outdoor Council.
Pavillion resident John Fenton, chairman of the group Pavillion Area Concerned Citizens, applauded the EPA for listening to the homeowners with contaminated water.
"Those of us who suffer the impacts from the unchecked development in our community are extremely happy the contamination source is being identified," Fenton said.
Calgary, Alberta-based Encana owns the Pavillion gas field. An announced $45 million sale to Midland, Texas-based Legacy Reserves fell through last month amid what Encana said were Legacy's concerns about the EPA investigation.
Encana spokesman Doug Hock said there was much to question about the draft study.
The compounds EPA said could be associated with fracking, he said, could have had other origins not related to gas development.
"Those could just have likely been brought about by contamination in their sampling process or construction of their well," Hock said.
The low levels of hydrocarbons found in local water wells likewise haven't been linked to gas development and substances such as methane itself are naturally occurring in the area.
"There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. This is a probability and it is one we believe is incorrect," Hock said.
Sen. James Inhofe said the study was "not based on sound science but rather on political science."
"Its findings are premature, given that the Agency has not gone through the necessary peer-review process, and there are still serious outstanding questions regarding EPA's data and methodology," the Oklahoma Republican said in a statement.
Wyoming last year became one of the first states to require oil and gas companies to publicly disclose the chemicals used in fracking. Colorado regulators are considering doing the same.
The public and industry representatives packed an 11-hour hearing on the issue in Denver on Monday. They all generally supported the proposal but the sticking point is whether trade secrets would have to be disclosed and how quickly the information would have to be turned over.
And while the EPA emphasized the Wyoming findings we're highly localized, the report is likely to reverberate.
The issue has been highly contentious in New York, where some upstate residents and politicians argue that the gas industry will bring desperately needed jobs while others demand a ban on fracking to protect water supplies. New York regulators haven't issued permits for gas drilling with high-volume hydraulic fracturing in the Marcellus Shale since they began an extensive environmental review in 2008.
Kate Sinding, an attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council in New York City, said in an e-mail Thursday that the EPA in Wyoming is now recognizing what other experts and families in fracking communities have known for some time: "Fracking poses serious threats to safe drinking water."

Regulators:  Fracking Led to Earthquakes

http://www.usatoday.com/money/story/2012-03-09/fracking-gas-drilling-earthquakes/53435232/1

Quote from: patric on March 09, 2012, 12:34:38 PM
Regulators:  Fracking Led to Earthquakes

http://www.usatoday.com/money/story/2012-03-09/fracking-gas-drilling-earthquakes/53435232/1

From the article....

QuoteThe report's findings, the Ohio regulator said, show the earthquakes were based on "a number of coincidental circumstances." For one, investigators said, the well began operations just three months ahead of the first quake.

They also noted that the seismic activity was clustered around the well bore, and reported that a fault has since been identified in the Precambrian basement rock where water was being injected.

"Geologists believe it is very difficult for all conditions to be met to induce seismic events," the report states. "In fact, all the evidence indicates that properly located ... injection wells will not cause earthquakes."

The improper placement of the Youngstown well stemmed in part from inadequate geological data being available to regulators, the report states. New rules would require a complete roll of geophysical logs to be submitted to the state.

This is refering to one well for disposing of the waste water, not all fracking in general.

Quote from: patric on March 09, 2012, 12:34:38 PM
Regulators:  Fracking Led to Earthquakes

http://www.usatoday.com/money/story/2012-03-09/fracking-gas-drilling-earthquakes/53435232/1

Did you note the comments after the story? This may not be a very accurate reporting of how the quakes were triggered. The re-injection wells were actually the culprit.

Quote from: nathanm on June 27, 2011, 01:39:45 PM
Yeah, they're still producing, just at a much lower rate than last year. It's the same story when you frack a traditional well, it's just that there's not such a large initial flow in the shale gas plays.

When the price of natural gas drops, like it has over the last year, they close that valve (run the pumps less) so that not quite so much comes out.  So if you get half out at half price, your check is 1/4.

I know this is old reply to old note, but the economics still are the same today.

Watching the Masters and seeing Exxon/Mobil ads depicting a well bore and the extolling the virtues of fracking makes me noxious. I do not have a great problem with certain frack jobs done free and clear of water tables despite the unknown hideous chemicals involved.

I do not approve of these ads which through their drawings are bold face lies as the water table illustrated are 1/4 size the well pipe illustrated. There're other "irregularities" with these constant misinforming ads. Why does a major oil and gas company find the need to deceive the public? And why do these seem to be the only commercials they are running?

Corporatehoods?

This is what happens when you remove all accountability and/or 'personal responsibility' from corporate activities. 

Earthquakes and contaminated water.

Quote from: Teatownclown on April 07, 2012, 11:49:54 AM
Watching the Masters and seeing Exxon/Mobil ads depicting a well bore and the extolling the virtues of fracking makes me noxious. I do not have a great problem with certain frack jobs done free and clear of water tables despite the unknown hideous chemicals involved.

I do not approve of these ads which through their drawings are bold face lies as the water table illustrated are 1/4 size the well pipe illustrated. There're other "irregularities" with these constant misinforming ads. Why does a major oil and gas company find the need to deceive the public? And why do these seem to be the only commercials they are running?

Corporatehoods?

I get your point, loud and clear and do not disagree about unknown hazards as a result of fracking.  However, how many other ads during the masters weren't stretching the truth on extolling the virtues of the products they were selling?

Quote from: Conan71 on April 08, 2012, 09:49:51 PM
I get your point, loud and clear and do not disagree about unknown hazards as a result of fracking.  However, how many other ads during the masters weren't stretching the truth on extolling the virtues of the products they were selling?

try this on...it's short so you should grasp the message:

Quote from: Teatownclown on April 09, 2012, 05:15:28 PM
try this on...it's short so you should grasp the message:

Silly clown, earthquakes are caused by global warming climate change eh, whatever they call it now.  ;)

Quote from: Conan71 on April 10, 2012, 08:58:10 AM
Silly clown, earthquakes are caused by global warming climate change eh, whatever they call it now.  ;)

Global Climate Disturbance didn't pan out.  It's fracking now.

Algore is retooling his organization.  Soon, oil companies will be able to buy a bunch of frackin credits for their frackin oil and gas rigs.  

Seriously. . .

Having some geology knowledge and understanding the nature of earthquakes and the massive amounts of kinetic energy that builds up over time on moving rock formations.  And also understanding that like a stretched rubber band, this ultimately results in significant seismic effects.  it would actually be safe to speculate that if indeed we are responsible for the phenomenon, creating a series of smaller quakes by releasing that energy in several small insignificant events, across multiple fault lines, we may actually have stumbled on a way to prevent catastrophe.

The energy expended in the fracking process may indeed be enough to get the rock layers to release some of their force in the form of small quakes.  If so this would as important a discovery as learning to prevent tornados.  We may be able to save the lives of millions in California through controlled release, and solve our energy problems at the same time.

;D

Quote from: Gaspar on April 10, 2012, 04:28:07 PM
The energy expended in the fracking process may indeed be enough to get the rock layers to release some of their force in the form of small quakes.  If so this would as important a discovery as learning to prevent tornados.  We may be able to save the lives of millions in California through controlled release, and solve our energy problems at the same time.

Wow, you've made it to the 70s! Maybe in another couple of years you'll join us in the 21st century! ;)

Edited to add: Rather than solely snarking, I guess I should complete the thought: The earthquakes that injection wells cause are unrelated to the deeper earthquakes generated by long term geologic processes. Injection wells simply aren't deep enough to matter. An interesting possibility converse to your supposition is that small quakes in the upper part of the crust might trigger larger quakes along deep faults.

There was actually a bunch of research on this in Colorado in the 70s after there was a cluster of small earthquakes there.

Quote from: nathanm on April 10, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Wow, you've made it to the 70s! Maybe in another couple of years you'll join us in the 21st century! ;)

Edited to add: Rather than solely snarking, I guess I should complete the thought: The earthquakes that injection wells cause are unrelated to the deeper earthquakes generated by long term geologic processes. Injection wells simply aren't deep enough to matter. An interesting possibility converse to your supposition is that small quakes in the upper part of the crust might trigger larger quakes along deep faults.

There was actually a bunch of research on this in Colorado in the 70s after there was a cluster of small earthquakes there.

Actually I expected your snark.  The way it was explained to me is that massive quakes have a magnification effect.  They start deep and as the waves travel to the surface they release kinetic energy stored in multiple layers as they pass.  A massive quake may start with a relatively small amount of energy at it's epicenter but release much more in a wide funnel shape as it travels to and along the surface.  This may also trigger several aftershocks that can be as powerful as the original shift.

Fracking is the next left wing environmental cause du jour as the global warming hysteria cools off.

Quote from: HazMatCFO on April 11, 2012, 05:13:56 AM
Fracking is the next left wing environmental cause du jour as the global warming hysteria cools off.

I said it several times. . .when the Global Warming hobgoblin cooled off (no pun), a new god would arise for the left.

Part of their fabric is to manufacture new evils, so that they might extoll their own false piety. It's simply another form of arrogance.

For liberalism to survive they must keep the populous alarmed so that liberals can offer progressive solutions.  To do this all of the hobgoblins must be attributable to the actions of man. The problem comes when they have to back away from fantastic and expensive solutions because they learn that either the problem never really existed, or the prevention is beyond their power. 

Impressive statistics, but no scientific link as of yet.  However, the media will have this spun into fact within the next six months with some horrible conclusions like the new WTC or Empire State Building buckling and being toppled over in 50 years as a result of fracking . 

I do find it highly plausible that smaller magnitude quakes could be the result of fracking since fracking does involve fracturing substrate rock.  There's also not near enough evidence gathered thus far to show potential harm from smaller quakes, nor do we know much about seismic cycles at this point in history to be able to have a full grasp of what all this means.

QuoteBut another expert was not convinced of a link to oil and gas operations.

Austin Holland, the Oklahoma state seismologist, said the new work presents an "interesting hypothesis" but that the increase in earthquake rates could simply be the result of natural processes.

Holland said clusters of quakes can occur naturally, and that scientists do not yet fully understand the natural cycles of seismic activity in the central United States. Comprehensive earthquake records for the region go back only a few decades, he said, while natural cycles stretch for tens of thousands of years. So too little is known to rule out natural processes for causing the increase, he said.

http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/568353/Federal-Study-Ties-Fracking-to-Earthquakes.html?nav=515

Interesting op-ed in the Oklahoman this morning

http://newsok.com/jumping-to-fracking-quake-conclusions-certainly-a-bad-idea/article/3665213

It's interesting what you can do with some editorial license.  This goes from "almost certainly man-made" to "there's a link!"  Yet you read further and find the researchers really don't know why oil and gas activity might cause an increase in earthquakes.

QuoteWashington, D.C. – A U.S. Geological Survey research team has linked oil and natural gas drilling operations to a series of recent earthquakes from Alabama to the Northern Rockies.

According to the study led by USGS geophysicist William Ellsworth, the spike in earthquakes since 2001 near oil and gas extraction operations is "almost certainly man-made." The research team cites underground injection of drilling wastewater as a possible cause.

...The USGS authors said they do not know why oil and gas activity might cause an increase in earthquakes but a possible explanation is the increase in the number of wells drilled over the past decade and the increase in fluid used in the hydraulic fracturing of each well. The combination of factors is likely creating far larger amounts of wastewater that companies often inject into underground disposal wells. Scientists have linked these disposal wells to earthquakes since as early as the 1960s. The injections can induce seismicity by changing pressure and adding lubrication along faults.

http://www.ewg.org/analysis/usgs-recent-earthquakes-almost-certainly-manmade

This is another one of those topics (like global warming) where we don't have enough historical data to get to a valid conclusion.  We have only been able to monitor seismic activity realistically since about 1780 - and accurately and widespread enough to be of real value, for less than 100 years.  That just ain't enough data points.

There is some strong "coincidence" related to the recent (last 5 years or so) earthquake activity at about 3 miles depth to the increased drilling/fracking activity at about 3 miles depth, but I cannot imagine any real scientist/engineer making an absolute statement based on so little time/data.  Seems logical, though - at least until some other evidence comes to light - which means we ought to be studying it very closely.  Not the we can or will do much about it if found to be a cause/effect relationship....



My theory is - think of the earth as big 'balloon'.  When you poke a very tiny hole in the balloon, air starts to come out, causing the balloon to shrink/wrinkle.  So, after a while, after we have taken all the oil/gas out, the earth will shrink and wrinkle even more, leaving us at a diameter of about 4 thousand miles - or about half what it is today.  So as we contract, the flat places on earth will all rise up to be mountains, and the oceans will then cover all the land except for maybe the Himalayas.  Better get a boat!   (Kidding, in case no one could hear the inflection in my voice...)

As I mentioned earlier, we've actually got experience dating back to the 50s with increased seismicity in the vicinity of injection wells. I don't recall any of those older events causing any sort of damage, however, so it may be going too far to link magnitude 4-5 earthquakes with them.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/411275/march-28-2012/mark-ruffalo

So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

Quote from: dbacks fan on May 08, 2012, 04:05:00 AM
So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

Kinda in the same way Ted Nugent is an expert on American political policy?

;D

I have personal access to my own private Nuclear Health Physicist, so had this person bring the measurement tools to a family members home in Broken Arrow.  Alpha and Beta detector was normal levels.  When the gamma detector was being prepped, the talk was about the normal background levels and how that is what should be expected - around 4 or 5.  (I think it was micro-Roetgens....)

As soon as the detector was turned on, the response was, "Oh....that's high....well, it's still ok, nothing to worry about...".   So, of course, I won't worry....
It was 12 - 14 micro.  Probably not a problem. 

I think it was caused by the wells drilled on the property in the '40s and 50s...broke the ground loose and released the radiation buried there, waiting to come out and play.  No earthquakes yet, but still waiting.  Oh, wait - yes we did have an earthquake, but it was near Prague - twice.  Just got to feel it here in Tulsa...

Quote from: dbacks fan on May 08, 2012, 04:05:00 AM
So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....pretty much any person with a brain would realize that if a river - made of water - catches fire, there is likely to be a problem as the underlying root cause.

Also don't have to be an expert to understand that Germany, that Mecca of tanning excellence, has been able to achieve close to 30% of it's energy from solar.  Actually, the number as of last year was a little less, if memory serves, but they are VERY aggressively pursuing that level.  And wind.


But it would be a shame to bring reality into any discussion that might possibly take a penny out of the pockets of big oil...

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2012, 08:22:42 AM
The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....pretty much any person with a brain would realize that if a river - made of water - catches fire, there is likely to be a problem as the underlying root cause.

Also don't have to be an expert to understand that Germany, that Mecca of tanning excellence, has been able to achieve close to 30% of it's energy from solar.  Actually, the number as of last year was a little less, if memory serves, but they are VERY aggressively pursuing that level.  And wind.


But it would be a shame to bring reality into any discussion that might possibly take a penny out of the pockets of big oil...

This guy may not have been an expert, but he sure enlightened himself along the way of making this movie.  I found it pretty informational as it relates to the practice:

Gasland (maybe a movie made about a poster on this forum?...j/k)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558250/

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2012, 08:22:42 AM
The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....

The problem is when people who have a public platform to speak and are not experts (Algore *cough*) seize on the parts of a report or paper which most enraptures them and only follow that thread- essentially speaking for the experts even though they have no real scientific knowledge to start with.  Or they simply add hyperbole and bastardize it into a cause which will define them and reward them with either power, recognition, or money.

It's just like the old rumor line exercise.  Start a story at one end of the room, pass it through 20 people and see how much it morphed to  being nowhere close to the original message or at odds with the original message.

That movie was just on one of the pay movie channels and I actually caught that. He does discover some very nasty situations happening in rural America with the drilling going on.
The couple that had lived on their land for generations I think it was in Wyoming. And the gas fumes that now surround the home and affect the cattle was terrible. The giant pool of sludge were they pump the flowback water is just a big pond of contaminated liquid.
I have heard of people being able to light the water coming out of their faucet, but the man in this movie almost catches himself on fire with the big ball of flame coming out of his.
I realize we have to have these resources but at what cost to the publics health and benefit.

Contaminated wells go back a long time.  I had an uncle who lived on a farm in Ft. Scott KS (1955 to about 1975), where there was a couple of gas wells back about 3/8 mile from the road - back side of 160 acres.  The water well near the front of the property had methane coming out of it.  There was a water valve at the well house and light the water on fire from gas coming out.  The solution was to pump water into a pond that he made, aerate to get rid of the methane, then run the pond water from that pond into the sand filter and then to house.

Methane is straightforward to deal with and not a cause for alarm, unless you have it at the kitchen faucet and it gets lit up....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2012, 01:26:57 PM
Contaminated wells go back a long time.  I had an uncle who lived on a farm in Ft. Scott KS (1955 to about 1975), where there was a couple of gas wells back about 3/8 mile from the road - back side of 160 acres.  The water well near the front of the property had methane coming out of it.  There was a water valve at the well house and light the water on fire from gas coming out.  The solution was to pump water into a pond that he made, aerate to get rid of the methane, then run the pond water from that pond into the sand filter and then to house.

Methane is straightforward to deal with and not a cause for alarm, unless you have it at the kitchen faucet and it gets lit up....

I always wondered about "No Smoking" signs hung over a water fountain.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 08, 2012, 01:26:57 PM
Methane is straightforward to deal with and not a cause for alarm, unless you have it at the kitchen faucet and it gets lit up....

Sure, and there were even a few places where it happened completely naturally, before we started sticking straws in the ground and sucking. Why aren't we forcing the producers to clean up after themselves, though? They seem to be willing to do a little bit, sometimes, for people who seem like they have enough money to be a pain in the donkey, but that's about it. I think that's what infuriates me the most, that we let these companies run roughshod over the landowners.

The landowners shouldn't be able to prevent extraction of the gas, but they should be able to rely on the driller to not cause any problems beyond surface disruption, and to remediate what problems they do cause. Anything else is corporate welfare.

Not that this is the only problem. You should take a listen to the compressor stations at Dish, TX (the home of free Dish Network satellite TV!). How is it that companies are allowed to get away with noise pollution on that scale?

Quote from: nathanm on May 08, 2012, 03:18:09 PM
Sure, and there were even a few places where it happened completely naturally, before we started sticking straws in the ground and sucking. Why aren't we forcing the producers to clean up after themselves, though? They seem to be willing to do a little bit, sometimes, for people who seem like they have enough money to be a pain in the donkey, but that's about it. I think that's what infuriates me the most, that we let these companies run roughshod over the landowners.

The landowners shouldn't be able to prevent extraction of the gas, but they should be able to rely on the driller to not cause any problems beyond surface disruption, and to remediate what problems they do cause. Anything else is corporate welfare.

Not that this is the only problem. You should take a listen to the compressor stations at Dish, TX (the home of free Dish Network satellite TV!). How is it that companies are allowed to get away with noise pollution on that scale?

You know exactly why - it would be an unwarranted government intrusion to require them to clean up their mess.  Like at Picher, OK with the lead mines - that place where Jim Inhofe has made so much of his personal fortune having his "good buddies" (in the truck driver sense of the word) push some tailings around for millions of dollars.  Sidetracked - sorry....

The requirement of personal responsibility - so popular in the dogma of the extremist you-know-who - doesn't really count for the people making those messes.  Go figure.... I don't get it, either.


The gas in this case was from an improperly cased well - two of them - such that when it was pumped, it could migrate through the ground and got to the water well probably 2,000 feet or more away.  Note; most gas wells work by pumping water out to relieve pressure on the formation, allowing gas to come out of solution.  Some people liken it to opening a bottle of shaken up pop.  Maybe...not sure how accurate that is, but makes it easy to understand.  I was pretty young at the time, so didn't really understand how they were working - don't remember an injection well per se, unless they were pumping back and forth alternately between each other.  There were tanks, so maybe just hauling the salt water out.

OERB is doing some clean up - the wait is VERY long.  Better than nothing.

The environmentlists just want another reason to shut down nat. gas drilling.

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 09, 2012, 12:43:02 PM
The environmentlists just want another reason to shut down nat. gas drilling.

Tell that to the people who can light the water coming out of their faucets...

Quote from: sauerkraut on May 09, 2012, 12:43:02 PM
The environmentlists just want another reason to shut down nat. gas drilling.

Yes, and you just want to fart more kim chi.

Quote from: dbacks fan on May 11, 2012, 03:18:19 AM
Yes, and you just want to fart more kim chi.

Hey!  I wanna fart some more kim chi! 

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 11, 2012, 08:23:07 AM
Hey!  I wanna fart some more kim chi! 

That statement should open the Summer games.

Lots of news on the Frack lately....In Wyoming, they've determined the formations leak out into the areas where the water tables go....In Cali, they've determined some safe zones free from leaching.

And in Pennsylvania, you might get some greedy college to participate.

QuotePennsylvania Fracking Law Opens Up Drilling on College Campuses
The state's latest grab for Marcellus Shale money could turn some colleges into industrial zones.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/pennsylvania-fracking-law-opens-drilling-college-campuses

According to the PennEnvironment Research and Policy Center, Pennsylvania drilling companies racked up a total of 3,355 violations of environmental law between 2008 and 2011, 2,392 of which posed a direct threat to the environment and safety of communities.

And the injection wells in Ohio are causing earthquakes.

Gotta love it....

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on October 12, 2012, 09:23:47 PM
And the injection wells in Ohio are causing earthquakes.

Gotta love it....

Red man didn't read about the mineral rights that should have gone with his allotment.  Now he finds building casinos for the greedy paleface to push little buttons is much cleaner and pays better.

There will be a time to avoid the tragedy that the removal of the under burden in North East Oklahoma will have to be replaced or the we are going to have many changes in land surfaces.  Look at the globe and notice how little is dry land.
   

Quote from: shadows on October 14, 2012, 09:56:20 PM

Red man didn't read about the mineral rights that should have gone with his allotment.  Now he finds building casinos for the greedy paleface to push little buttons is much cleaner and pays better.

There will be a time to avoid the tragedy that the removal of the under burden in North East Oklahoma will have to be replaced or the we are going to have many changes in land surfaces.  Look at the globe and notice how little is dry land.
 

Minerals actually were transferred with the land for the most part.  It was not recognized at that time there might be oil here.  It didn't take long for the white man to figure out how to screw the Indians out of that either.  Lot of that went on in the teen's and twenties.

The difference now is the Indians have teamed up with the mafia (bad-a$$ white men) to learn the tricks of the trade.  "Mineral rights" to the casino gold mines ain't gonna get stolen any time soon this go 'round.


Removal of under burden??  I presume you are talking about the Picher area.  Well, as long as Inhofe is still around, the only thing that might happen there is collapse of the area into the holes.  Not sure how one would go about putting all those tailings back into the ground. 

There is among the archives the age old saying of a bottle of whiskey was considered as fair for the 160 acres with mineral rights paid to the Redman.  Many of the building in Tulsa reflect this procedure used by its leading citizens that acquired fortunes from it in the Glen Pool strike. 

QuotePublished on Friday, October 19, 2012 by Common Dreams
Fracking Poisoning Families at Alarming Rate: Report

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/10/19-2

Residents living near gas fracking sites suffer an increasingly high rate of health problems now linked to pollutants used in the gas extraction process, according to a new report released Thursday.

The study, conducted by Earthworks' Oil & Gas Accountability Project, pulled from a survey of 108 Pennsylvania residents in 14 counties, and a series of air and water tests. The results showed close to 70 percent of participants reported an increase in throat irritation and roughly 80 percent suffered from sinus problems after natural gas extraction companies moved to their areas. The symptoms intensify the closer the residents are to the fracking sites.

"We use water for nothing other than flushing the commode," said Janet McIntyre referring to the now toxic levels of water on her land, which neighbors a fracking site. McIntyre said her entire family, including their pets, suffered from a wide array of health problems including projectile vomiting and skin rashes, indicative of other families' symptoms in the areas surveyed. Other symptoms include sinus, respiratory, fatigue, and mood problems.

"Twenty-two households reported that pets and livestock began to have symptoms (such as seizures or losing hair) or suddenly fell ill and died after gas development began nearby," the report finds.

After taking water and air samples, Earthworks detected chemicals that have been linked to oil and gas operations and also directly connected to many of the symptoms reported in the survey on the resident's properties. This study showed a higher concentration of ethylbenzene and xylene, volatile compounds found in petroleum hydrocarbons, at the households as compared to control sites.

"For too long, the oil and gas industry and state regulators have dismissed community members' health complaints as 'false' or 'anecdotal'," said Nadia Steinzor, the project's lead author. "With this research, they cannot credibly ignore communities any longer."

According to a separate report released earlier this month, EPA regulators are having trouble keeping up with the "rapid pace" of shale oil and gas development, due to a lack in resources, staff, data and a number of legal loopholes.

A First Look At Oklahoma's New Mining Regulations

http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2012/11/27/a-first-look-at-oklahomas-new-mining-regulations/ (http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2012/11/27/a-first-look-at-oklahomas-new-mining-regulations/)

QuoteThe land above the Arbuckle-Simpson aquifer — perhaps Oklahoma's most sensitive water resource — is dotted with great chasms, some empty, some filled with groundwater that's seeped in.

It's the result of pit mining by mostly out-of-state companies eager to get their hands on the area's rich deposits of silica sand, often used for hydraulic fracturing, and some of finest limestone in the world.

But property owners along Mill Creek, which is fed by the aquifer, are reporting low water levels. The landowners blame the mining companies for pumping out massive amounts of groundwater as they bore through the aquifer.

Water use in pit mining has been largely unregulated to this point, but that's about to change.

The Oklahoma Water Resources board has been charged by the legislature with creating new rules for the monitoring and management of aquifer water displaced by mining. The process is ongoing, but the OWRB has sent

proposed rules to interested parties like Citizens for the Protection of the Arbuckle-Simpson Aquifer and mining companies.

The rules appear fairly strict. New mines will have to report how much aquifer water is being displaced down to the amount of water still dampening the rock when it's hauled off.

That will be difficult enough for the mining companies, but they'll also have to show their plan to conserve the pit water by pumping it into streams or building recharge ponds.

So, problem solved, right? Wrong. CPASA is getting its first look at the proposed rules and isn't enthusiastic.

One point of contention for the group is the fact that only companies that apply for mining permits after Aug. 1, 2011 have to manage pit water. Once the rules are approved, companies who applied for permits before the

deadline only have to monitor their water use. Mining companies rushed to apply for permits before that deadline. None have applied since, say officials with the State Department of Mines.

Kevin Blackwood, a CPASA member and hydrogeologist for the Arbuckle-Karst Conservancy, says it doesn't matter how tough the rules are if all of the companies currently mining over the aquifer are exempt from them.

"That's something I do have a problem with, because all the problems that exist currently are associated with the mines that we have right now," he says. "I do have a problem with that exemption for them."

But J.D. Strong, executive director of the state Water Resources Board, says the pit water management exemptions are conditional and revocable.  Tougher regulations will be triggered if mining companies fail to monitor water use, or use more than their allotted share of groundwater, which varies from mine to mine.

Aside from the exemptions, Blackwood says the proposed rules are forceful, if a bit confusing.

"I've had a little bit of trouble understanding these, and I understand some of the attorneys have had a little bit of difficulty with it as well," he says. "But what I can understand, I'm a little bit optimistic with. I like what I see."

The OWRB will publicize the proposed rules in early December, and won't finalize the rules until the agency's January 2013 board meeting. Strong says there's still time for changes.

One thing is beyond doubt - regular people are gonna get screwed again...if they haven't already.

A Mysterious Patch Of Light Shows Up In The North Dakota Dark

(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/01/16/drilling_wide-8e07f1273ee90a4f0bcc3a36352be08270865af0-s4.jpg)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130116 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130116)

QuoteWhat we have here is an immense and startlingly new oil and gas field — nighttime evidence of an oil boom created by a technology called fracking. Those lights are rigs, hundreds of them, lit at night, or fiery flares of natural gas. One hundred fifty oil companies, big ones, little ones, wildcatters, have flooded this region, drilling up to eight new wells every day on what is called the Bakken formation. Altogether, they are now producing 660,000 barrels a day, double the output two years ago, so that in no time at all, North Dakota is now the second largest oil producing state in America. Only Texas produces more, and those lights are a sign that this region is now on fire ... to a disturbing degree — literally.

Quote from: Townsend on January 16, 2013, 01:31:08 PM
A Mysterious Patch Of Light Shows Up In The North Dakota Dark

(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/01/16/drilling_wide-8e07f1273ee90a4f0bcc3a36352be08270865af0-s4.jpg)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130116 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2013/01/16/169511949/a-mysterious-patch-of-light-shows-up-in-the-north-dakota-dark?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130116)

Kewl, and Wow.

The issue is all that contaminated waste water and pouring it back into the water tables.

http://m.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/01/fracking-wastewater-threatens-drown-ohio

" Because of fracking, gas extraction is up 570 percent since 2004 in the Marcellus shale region, which means that there's a whole lot more wastewater overall to deal with."
"Pennsylvania's 6,400 active wells created 20 million barrels of wastewater in 2011, and about 35 percent of it—7 million barrels—was disposed of in injection wells in Ohio, accounting for more than half of the wastewater Ohio dealt with."

Defend the water and air.

But think of the jobs...


Jobs.  Jobs.  Jobs.  Jobs.


Say that over and over for about 3 minutes and you get this weird sensation of how meaningless the letters are.  The word just blurs into a mush of irrelevance without any other context.  No input about quality of life.  Living standard.  Balance of work and family.  Also, a good a way to live vicariously as a Republicontin; not to be confused with a Republican....

That is the light from the oil rigs, there are alot of big oil rigs there with light shining up into the sky. It's a big oil patch.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 23, 2013, 05:19:58 PM
But think of the jobs...


Jobs.  Jobs.  Jobs.  Jobs.


Say that over and over for about 3 minutes and you get this weird sensation of how meaningless the letters are.  The word just blurs into a mush of irrelevance without any other context.  No input about quality of life.  Living standard.  Balance of work and family.  Also, a good a way to live vicariously as a Republicontin; not to be confused with a Republican....

Better than having no jobs and being unemployed and homeless.

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 24, 2013, 01:20:47 PM
Better than having no jobs and being unemployed and homeless.

Mary, for goodness sake, get back to work.

Frack on, frack off, The Fracker! I think I just invented something new! :)

Quote from: sauerkraut on January 25, 2013, 01:51:04 PM
Frack on, frack off, The Fracker! I think I just invented something new! :)

FINALLY!!  And better yet, it's almost humorous!!!!!

This sheds a little more light on the lights.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269517/The-picture-space-shows-U-S-oil-field-burning-gas-power-Chicago-AND-Washington-cheaper-selling-it.html

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 28, 2013, 09:46:46 AM
This sheds a little more light on the lights.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269517/The-picture-space-shows-U-S-oil-field-burning-gas-power-Chicago-AND-Washington-cheaper-selling-it.html

Perhaps the most damning:

"the abundant supplies of gas it has unlocked have outpaced development of infrastructure needed to store and pump it to populations."
i.e., it's cheaper to just let it burn than try to sell it.

If they have no means to transport the gas, then why are they continuing to drill eight new wells every day?

Quote from: patric on January 28, 2013, 11:26:02 AM

If they have no means to transport the gas, then why are they continuing to drill eight new wells every day?

Because of oil...not gas. Most wells come in at 500+ BOPD and then taper off to 100-200 BOPD ....the wells have a sharp decline curve. It's easier to burn the gas off than to try to build pipelines.

Also, burning off well head gas is nothing new, it's been done for decades.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 28, 2013, 12:01:57 PM
Also, burning off well head gas is nothing new, it's been done for decades.

Probably just not at this large of numbers in one place.

"no, it's cause that man in the White House is holdin' up all the pipelines" and "he's totally against the oil industry" ....Tulsa GOP/Teaheads mantra.

Quote from: DolfanBob on January 28, 2013, 12:23:11 PM
Probably just not at this large of numbers in one place.

I don't have the stats to back it up, but I'm relying on conversations with my step dad from 30-some years ago.  He was a petroleum geologist for Williams then formed an indie company with some other investors, so this was based on his knowledge in the industry.   

He explained early on in oil exploration, before there was a good way to capture and distribute natural gas, they would flare it or just let it vent off.  It was considered a nuisance. 

It's done more often than you would think in rural areas where the oil has vastly more value and it would be considered costly to capture and transport the gas, much as what is happening in ND.  The good news is, there's any number of processes which make methane gas or gasses with similar BTU values.  Sure, it would be nice if they harnessed all the gas they've been finding. If prices were still at 2005 highs like right after Katrina, you wound't see near the amount being vented off.  But when it trades for roughly four times less than it did then, the economics aren't there.  Much as if oil retreated back to $40 a barrel, some of the processes being used like downhole steaming and certain fracking processes wouldn't be economical to recover oil.

The low NG prices are part of the reason Chesapeake Energy has been struggling for a few years.  Well that and it's CEO is a degenerate spender much like Tom Kivisto.  Main difference is either McClendon doesn't engage in shady trading or the house of cards simply hasn't tumbled yet.

If you go west on 412 to Sand Springs, there is a small rocker arm well right about the expressway on the north side that has been around a long time.  There was a flare on that well for many, many years (haven't seen it burn lately, so guess they have stopped) because they couldn't economically capture the gas.  Kind of a "pest product" from many if not most oil wells.  When you pump out the water/oil, the pressure is reduced and that lets gas out.  So, they gotta do something with it.   Burn it!

There are a lot of what is called "coal bed methane" (CBM) wells in the west, where that is exactly the intent - pump out the salt water, reduce pressure on the formation, and let the gas out the back side to be collected and shipped.

Quote
The Surprising Connection Between Food and Fracking
In a recent Nation piece, the wonderful Elizabeth Royte teased out the direct links between hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, and the food supply. In short, extracting natural gas from rock formations by bombarding them with chemical-spiked fluid leaves behind fouled water—and that fouled water can make it into the crops and animals we eat.
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2013/01/foodfracking-connection-youve-never-thought-about

I have no problem with fracking that does not enter our water tables and does not foul the top soils.

So now that the Earthquakes are shown to be linked to drilling maybe Oklahoma should start taxing all oil drilling like Texas and North Dakota.  They do well, we could at least use it to rebuild earthquake damage and our capital building.

Oklahoma earthquake was largest linked to injection wells, new study suggests

http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2013/03/26/oklahoma-earthquake-was-largest-linked-to-injection-wells-new-study-suggests/ (http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2013/03/26/oklahoma-earthquake-was-largest-linked-to-injection-wells-new-study-suggests/)

QuoteA University of Oklahoma seismologist's research, released today, provides further evidence that Oklahoma's largest-recorded earthquake was triggered by injection wells used by the oil and gas industry. Katie Keranen's findings, published today in the geoscience journal Geology, adds to a growing chorus of scientific evidence suggesting that injection and disposal wells are likely causing an uptick of earthquakes in the continental United States. The analysis suggests that injection-induced earthquakes could be larger than previously thought, and that they could occur on much longer timescales.

I have been thinking that there are an awful lot more earthquakes now than when I was a kid (not that I felt all of them lol).  From the article above... More than 1,400 earthquakes were recorded in Oklahoma in 2011, the most seismically active year on record, data show.

And at BBC News

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21952428    

This is interesting...    " In April 2012, a study by scientists at the US Geological Survey of the interior of the US found that events of magnitude 3 or greater had "abruptly increased in 2009" from 1.2 per year in the previous 50 years to more than 25 per year -"

Wow that's a big increase.

http://www2.epa.gov/hydraulicfracturing#providing

The quakes are one thing...

Yesterday, I read where the nat gas pipelines to our homes will soon be blessed with a new technology that places a power source in our homes alleviating much of the environmental damage from power plants.

Refiner's are another matter....

Woo Hoo! We beat California in the number of Earthquakes.
So now back to fracking. Is this the cause? Lets discuss among ourselves...........again.  ::)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2690913/Is-fracking-reason-Oklahoma-earthquakes-year-CALIFORNIA-Geologists-descend-state-test-controversial-drilling-blame.html

Its like discussing with North Carolina tobacco farmers whether cigarettes cause cancer.

Or chatting with Iowans about the logic of turning food into fuel.

Perhaps having a round table discussion with college professors about tenure.

You mean like that?

Exactly H2O man. I mentioned the subject to my boss and did not know that he was so passionate about the whole fracking thing. It was like I said the Moon landing was staged in a studio(you know it was right?)

So until a huge Earthquake happens and a Drilling Rig falls in it(in Oklahoma)I'll just keep them dang conspiracy theories to my dang self.

I was once subject to that hostage mentality. When I worked for a large oil company we were constantly brainwashed, re-formatted, and fed the oil company mantras. They had us by the nads since our very existence relied on their benevolence. I escaped.

Now, its even more difficult to talk issues with people. They fear they are being monitored online, they fear retaliation, loss of future employment and more. Most people are quite guarded with their remarks lest they be considered as lacking commitment or unstable. Not me. I'm f###ing crazy, retired and outspoken about everything. Life's too short to engage in self deception for very long.

Of course fracking is causing quakes, pre-quake conditions and general ecological mayhem. Climate change is real, Inhofe is not. Cigarettes cause cancer and should be outlawed like radium water. Marijuana should be decriminalized at the very least. Ethanol is a giveaway program for corporate farming and tenure is too easy to get.

Quote from: DolfanBob on July 14, 2014, 11:05:01 AM
Exactly H2O man. I mentioned the subject to my boss and did not know that he was so passionate about the whole fracking thing. It was like I said the Moon landing was staged in a studio(you know it was right?)

Sorry to hear that!!   Hope you can find a job with a rational person some time!!  I wouldn't mind having one of those, too!!

Reminds me of that TV ad- "Frack on, Frack off, The Fracker"!

In other news:

DENVER—The organizer of Initiative 75, the grassroots anti-fracking measure, announced Monday that he has folded the statewide campaign after failing to collect enough signatures.http://thecoloradoobserver.com/2014/07/grassroots-anti-fracking-initiative-pulled-due-to-lack-of-support/

Once the legal pot industry outpaces the energy industry in that state it will be easier to get support for such a measure, however it may be more difficult to get people to show up to the polls on the right day.

Quote from: AquaMan on July 14, 2014, 11:30:20 AM
I was once subject to that hostage mentality. When I worked for a large oil company we were constantly brainwashed, re-formatted, and fed the oil company mantras. They had us by the nads since our very existence relied on their benevolence. I escaped.

Now, its even more difficult to talk issues with people. They fear they are being monitored online, they fear retaliation, loss of future employment and more. Most people are quite guarded with their remarks lest they be considered as lacking commitment or unstable. Not me. I'm f###ing crazy, retired and outspoken about everything. Life's too short to engage in self deception for very long.

Of course fracking is causing quakes, pre-quake conditions and general ecological mayhem. Climate change is real, Inhofe is not. Cigarettes cause cancer and should be outlawed like radium water. Marijuana should be decriminalized at the very least. Ethanol is a giveaway program for corporate farming and tenure is too easy to get.

Actually, the suspect isn't fracking so much as it is the deep injection wells where they are sending the waste water from fracking operations.  Interesting to note though that they aren't having near the quake activity in other areas where fracking is common now such as North Dakota, around Midland, Tx. or Pennsylvania.

That's a good point. Its actually the injection of the wastewater that is suspect. We have major faults that run through this area, one just west in Creek county, and the crust is quite solid limestone some 15 miles deep iirc. So, when we do have quakes, they travel through that layer for long distances. Our big one back in 2011 was felt all the way to Maryland. (thanks PBS!) Not sure of the layout in the Dakotas.

Quote from: Gaspar on July 14, 2014, 02:17:53 PM
In other news:

DENVER—The organizer of Initiative 75, the grassroots anti-fracking measure, announced Monday that he has folded the statewide campaign after failing to collect enough signatures.http://thecoloradoobserver.com/2014/07/grassroots-anti-fracking-initiative-pulled-due-to-lack-of-support/

Once the legal pot industry outpaces the energy industry in that state it will be easier to get support for such a measure, however it may be more difficult to get people to show up to the polls on the right day.

That's funny. I wonder if they will enact laws similar to alcohol for election days. No doobies within 150 feet of an election hall. And no sales on election day.

Oil companies are scrambling to find better ways to deal with waste water.  The technology is there, it simply will cost more per bbl for higher disposal costs.

  Was interesting looking at one of those recent studies one scientist had put together showing where the concentrations of injection wells were and then seeing the number of earthquakes nearby dramatically increasing and also spreading outwards.  If they spread outwards towards say the Meers Faultline and it kicks loose, I don't know how they will be able to say they had no part in that. They will of course BUT if there is loss of life and significant damage, people will be screaming for heads to roll. I think the fracking industry is pretty much just trying to "play the odds" cross their fingers and hope that doesn't happen under their management/shareholders watch.

Quote from: TheArtist on July 15, 2014, 07:29:26 AM
 Was interesting looking at one of those recent studies one scientist had put together showing where the concentrations of injection wells were and then seeing the number of earthquakes nearby dramatically increasing and also spreading outwards.  If they spread outwards towards say the Meers Faultline and it kicks loose, I don't know how they will be able to say they had no part in that. They will of course BUT if there is loss of life and significant damage, people will be screaming for heads to roll. I think the fracking industry is pretty much just trying to "play the odds" cross their fingers and hope that doesn't happen under their management/shareholders watch.

You understand perfectly!


Look out - you will be looking for a CEO job at one of the big oils, next.....

Is this a confirmation of Fracking = Earthquakes?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-orders-injection-well-shut-down-after-northwestern-oklahoma-earthquake/article_4184d155-d9b2-523d-a8d5-033174ff8584.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/earthquakes/swarm-of-earthquakes-strikes-parts-of-northern-oklahoma/article_88b6abe2-3dd8-521d-80bc-cbfae479c9fb.html

Quote from: DolfanBob on February 05, 2015, 10:49:38 AM
Is this a confirmation of Fracking = Earthquakes?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-orders-injection-well-shut-down-after-northwestern-oklahoma-earthquake/article_4184d155-d9b2-523d-a8d5-033174ff8584.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/earthquakes/swarm-of-earthquakes-strikes-parts-of-northern-oklahoma/article_88b6abe2-3dd8-521d-80bc-cbfae479c9fb.html

And yet, we just keep on believing and voting for the BS....

We have drunk the Kool-Aid big time!!   Don't Stop Believing...!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcjzHMhBtf0

Quote from: DolfanBob on February 05, 2015, 10:49:38 AM
Is this a confirmation of Fracking = Earthquakes?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/state-orders-injection-well-shut-down-after-northwestern-oklahoma-earthquake/article_4184d155-d9b2-523d-a8d5-033174ff8584.html

http://www.tulsaworld.com/earthquakes/swarm-of-earthquakes-strikes-parts-of-northern-oklahoma/article_88b6abe2-3dd8-521d-80bc-cbfae479c9fb.html

Injecting waste water into the ground (forcing it) is somewhat different from fracking to get the oil or natural gas out. This is disposing of the water from drilling activity.

The USGS and other scientific organizations acknowledged correlations for both, BUT, it appears somewhat conclusive that injection wells DO cause earthquakes. The fracking may just be a precursor (waste injection wells are almost always near fracking sites).  Unfortunately, if you can't inject salts, drilling chemicals, and contaminants that come up from the wells into the ground... it is very expensive to dispose of it.

Whether or not injection wells cause earthquakes is now just a question for industry and politicians - the more interesting question is do the pattern of earthquakes where little earthquakes usually foretell bigger earthquakes? As injecting activity goes down - will the earthquakes respond quickly? Is there a way or a location to do injections that doesn't cause earthquakes?

Arguing about the underlying issue, while not entirely resolved but appears to be heavily weighted towards causation, is no longer productive.

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/16/386693615/with-quakes-spiking-oil-industry-is-under-the-microscope-in-oklahoma

Quote from: cannon_fodder on February 05, 2015, 01:10:39 PM
The USGS and other scientific organizations acknowledged correlations for both, BUT, it appears somewhat conclusive that injection wells DO cause earthquakes. The fracking may just be a precursor (waste injection wells are almost always near fracking sites).  Unfortunately, if you can't inject salts, drilling chemicals, and contaminants that come up from the wells into the ground... it is very expensive to dispose of it.

Drive along some county roads and follow the miles of trails of something that looks like it "leaked" from a vehicle.

A friend in Okmulgee explained that fracking waste being hauled to disposal would "accidentally" not make it to its destination because of an open valve.

Thats toxic or carcinogenic B.T.E.X. chemicals (benzene, toluene, xylene and ethylbenzene) as well as lead, diesel and salt brine being dumped on open roads in the dead of night.

Quote from: patric on February 19, 2015, 11:12:34 AM
Drive along some county roads and follow the miles of trails of something that looks like it "leaked" from a vehicle.

A friend in Okmulgee explained that fracking waste being hauled to disposal would "accidentally" not make it to its destination because of an open valve.

Thats toxic or carcinogenic B.T.E.X. chemicals (benzene, toluene, xylene and ethylbenzene) as well as lead, diesel and salt brine being dumped on open roads in the dead of night.

This is old, old procedure - back to the 20's.  Relatives who were truck drivers in that time told those stories when I was a kid.  You can see it from time to time when following either a tanker, or sometimes a van (big box trailer).  Lower right hand corner at the floor level, just under the door, will have some type of oxidation depending on the trailer - steel vs alum.  Occasionally, will even drill holes in the floor to route a tube out the bottom in front of the tires, so not seen as a visible stream out the back.  

And a lot more than just drilling wastes.... a wide variety of liquids that needed disposal have been dumped that way forever.  If you ever had any inexplicable marks show up on the paint of your car, it must have just been "acid rain"....from those "rain clouds" at about 4 feet off the ground that you were following down the road....


Is that really that much worse than taking a truck load of gravel and pouring it on the ground, with a few thousand gallons of almost crude oil ??  Asphalt road....  That certainly couldn't lead to any increased health risks a reasonable person might expect, would it??

I ride a lot of gravel roads, especially out in Paine County where there is a lot of drilling and fracking going on.  One of the reasons people like riding out there is oil field and farm traffic is about all you see.  I have yet to see any evidence of "leaky" valved trailers being dragged around the Oklahoma outback. 

I think you are repeating a wive's tale Patric.  Granted I don't ride Okmulgee County roads, oil companies do some stupid smile but I don't think anyone would be that blatantly obvious.

Quote from: Conan71 on February 19, 2015, 05:08:48 PM
I ride a lot of gravel roads, especially out in Paine County where there is a lot of drilling and fracking going on.  One of the reasons people like riding out there is oil field and farm traffic is about all you see.  I have yet to see any evidence of "leaky" valved trailers being dragged around the Oklahoma outback.  

I think you are repeating a wive's tale Patric.  Granted I don't ride Okmulgee County roads, oil companies do some stupid smile but I don't think anyone would be that blatantly obvious.

Look closer.  It's there from time to time.  Less now than in the past, 'cause it is so much more expensive to get caught!  Thank goodness for the EPA!!

And it's not gravel roads so much as the back paved roads....


While you are out and about - keep an eye out for WPA bridges and culverts.  They are all over the place.  Usually a small concrete barrier 'fence' on both sides of the road.  Often painted yellow.  On the end, cast into the concrete is a badge shape with WPA and the date just under it.  Mostly 1940 and 1941 in northeast Oklahoma.  Have seen a 1939 or two somewhere around.  These are still doing the job more than 70 years later!  Think of the massive amounts of money saved and the recreational opportunities created in that time due to WPA and the state parks built by the CCC.

USGS:  "Deep injection of wastewater is the primary cause of the dramatic rise in detected earthquakes and the corresponding increase in seismic hazard in the central U.S."

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=4132&from=rss_home#.VOlp8Y3TnIV

Well if Jeb Bush says it's OK and Business men should invest in it. Then its gotta be a good thing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2964992/Jeb-Bush-facing-questions-claims-urged-businesses-invest-fracking-stood-profit-private-equity-group.html

Another article. Looks to be gaining steam in the State connect the dots game.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2999373/Reactivated-fault-lines-Oklahoma-cause-major-quake-study.html

The result of the earthquake study were stated thusly (verbatim): "it's the deep well injections stupid"

Oklahoma is based on oil & gas. We need drilling, there is no proof Fracking  causes quakes or anything else. Passing laws to ban or control it is nuts and it hurts the economy. Quakes happen deep underground and have no connection to fracking.

Quote from: DolfanBob on March 18, 2015, 08:23:35 AM
Another article. Looks to be gaining steam in the State connect the dots game.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2999373/Reactivated-fault-lines-Oklahoma-cause-major-quake-study.html

The key words in the article are "Could have Been", it's also just as likely it  has zero effect. Articles like that are not based on fact or science. Fracking could cause black holes to open up and swallow up the Earth, then again they may not. I'm tellin' ya .

What would you know about science or fact?

At least the people who did these studies have something upon which to base their conclusions. They studied science and earthquakes.

You have the ability to read, write and repeat political doctrine.

Quote from: AquaMan on April 03, 2015, 11:47:08 AM
What would you know about science or fact?

At least the people who did these studies have something upon which to base their conclusions. They studied science and earthquakes.

You have the ability to read, write and repeat political doctrine.

And two of those are questionable at best.

Quote from: AquaMan on April 03, 2015, 11:47:08 AM
What would you know about science or fact?

At least the people who did these studies have something upon which to base their conclusions. They studied science and earthquakes.

You have the ability to read, write and repeat political doctrine.

His probation officer needs to be told he's accessing the internet again.

Sure sounds like a threat...

Stillwater Officials: Oil Lobbyists Warned of Legislation if Vote on Drilling Ordinance Wasn't Delayed

http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/ (http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/)

(http://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/files/2015/04/yost-well-300x225.jpg)

QuoteOfficials in at least two cities have publicly questioned bills filed during the 2015 legislative session that would limit the local governments' authority to regulate oil and gas activity.

The bills' authors say the measures are meant to prevent towns, cities and counties from banning or effectively banning oil and gas drilling and related production activities, like hydraulic fracturing. Officials in Norman and Stillwater, for their part, say the legislation is an overreach that could limit their ability to write ordinances to protect the health and safety of local residents.

Stillwater has been considering stricter oil and gas ordinances, including 1,000-foot setbacks and limits on things like noise, traffic, gas flares, lights and dust. Two Stillwater city councilors say oil industry representatives told them to delay their vote on the ordinance or state lawmakers would pass a law that could "cost the city a lot of money," the Tulsa World's Ziva Branstetter reports:

The lobbyists and an attorney representing the Consumer Energy Alliance, an energy industry group based in Washington, D.C., told councilors that state lawmakers will approve one of two bills currently before the Legislature. If the council failed to delay its vote on the local ordinance, the lawmakers would pass the bill that is more restrictive of cities' ability to regulate drilling, the councilors say they were told.

Oklahoma-based lobbyists Pat Hall and Jim Dunlap met with council members before their March 23 meeting, during which councilors voted 3-2 to delay a vote on the ordinance. A public hearing on the ordinance had been set for April 6 but was delayed until April 20.

"They said this is not a threat. ... This is what will happen," Councilor Gina Noble said.

Hall, the lobbyist, acknowledges asking Stillwater city councilors to delay a vote on the ordinance, but denies it was a threat.

"I don't know if it (the vote) was because of us," Hall said.

"We tried to really reiterate that we were not in any way threatening them. We were just showing them that there's two bills, ... one that has the word 'reasonable' in it so the city of Stillwater could still pass an ordinance."

Sauer, I know you can read. Can you comprehend? The previous post about who controls our legislature and why we are being kept in the dark is scary enough. Here in a nutshell from a major newspaper OUTSIDE of Oklahoma is an article that pretty much sums up what is happening in our state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/04/us/as-quakes-rattle-oklahoma-fingers-point-to-oil-and-gas-industry.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=1

Please note the reference to a likely 7.0 magnitude quake for the Oklahoma City area and our dear David Boren's response.

Quote from: sauerkraut on April 03, 2015, 11:37:12 AM
Oklahoma is based on oil & gas. We need drilling, there is no proof Fracking  causes quakes or anything else. Passing laws to ban or control it is nuts and it hurts the economy. Quakes happen deep underground and have no connection to fracking.

So,...just curious....what exactly is it that happened to you sometime in the past that made you this way??

Quote from: AquaMan on April 03, 2015, 11:47:08 AM
What would you know about science or fact?

At least the people who did these studies have something upon which to base their conclusions. They studied science and earthquakes.

You have the ability to read, write and repeat political doctrine.

It must be remembered that some studies are agenda driven, or the "experts" are hired by the anti-oil industry to prove what they want proved, if they don't prove what they want proved the "experts" are fired and replaced by others who will prove their point. I dunno if that's the case here, but it's the case with things like global warming. The planet is cooling and the "experts" need to prove the planet is overheating. That even goes back to the "climate gate" scandal of 2007 when climate data was being doctored to prove the planet was warming up. All  sources need to be studied open & fairly. I have no issues with fracking or oil drilling. Bottom line is we need to know who those "experts" are and who those scientists are and who or what group is paying them.. That's all. No biggie.

A Warming Deiner would certainly know better than any educated expert.

And you are right, the fracking is not causing the earthquakes...the deep injection wells (where they put the unwanted detritus caused by fracking) is causing the earthquakes.

This might've gotten their attention.

Magnitude 4.3 Earthquake Recorded South of Guthrie

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/magnitude-43-earthquake-recorded-south-guthrie (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/magnitude-43-earthquake-recorded-south-guthrie)

QuoteGUTHRIE, Okla. (AP) — The U.S. Geological Survey reports an earthquake with a preliminary magnitude of 4.3 has been recorded south of Guthrie in central Oklahoma.

Logan County Sheriff's Sergeant Greg Valencia said there are no reports of injury or damage.

The USGS recorded the quake at 3:52 p.m. Wednesday two miles south of Guthrie. It was felt about 15 miles away in Edmond, where police spokesman Jennifer Monroe said the police station shook, but there was also no reports of damage or injury.

The epicenter of the quake was about 25 miles north of Oklahoma City.

I'd assume if the rest of the capital fell to the ground, they may take heed...

Quote from: Townsend on April 09, 2015, 03:14:33 PM
I'd assume if the rest of the capital fell to the ground, they may take heed...

Why would you assume that?
;D

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 09, 2015, 03:18:47 PM
Why would you assume that?

Some of them could be crushed in the rubble

Quote from: Townsend on April 03, 2015, 12:41:51 PM
Sure sounds like a threat...

Stillwater Officials: Oil Lobbyists Warned of Legislation if Vote on Drilling Ordinance Wasn't Delayed

As in Eminent Domain? 
Scores of people who lost their farms to the Canadian pipeline (XL) might be able to address that.

Quote from: patric on April 09, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
As in Eminent Domain? 
Scores of people who lost their farms to the Canadian pipeline (XL) might be able to address that.

Do you have links to all these farms lost?

You do realize the farmers would have been paid very good money for that 50 to 100' wide ROW across their property, right?  It's not like it would have been lost by eminent domain.

Quote from: Conan71 on April 09, 2015, 09:06:17 PM
Do you have links to all these farms lost?

You do realize the farmers would have been paid very good money for that 50 to 100' wide ROW across their property, right?  It's not like it would have been lost by eminent domain.

All of them?  Doesnt sound reasonable.  How about we start 3 months ago...


TransCanada had spent the last six years "bullying" landowners into signing away the rights to their land, but a group of about 100 is prepared to continue fighting.  Crumly said her family first heard from TransCanada when a company representative called at 9:30 p.m. a few years ago to tell them that the planned route would go through their land. At the time, she said, TransCanada made them an offer that was less than the price of a set of tires for an irrigation rig.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-keystone-land-2015-0120-story.html

Or you could just hit the "back" button on your browser...

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18662.msg254809#msg254809

Arthur Judge, a Wood County deputy sheriff, admitted to Texas landowner Susan Scott that TransCanada was paying the police by the hour to work private security details. "He was patrolling the easement on my farm and he informed me that his mandate was to arrest anyone at anytime that sets foot on the easement," attests Ms. Scott. "The officer also demanded that I show ID or he would arrest me, all this while I was standing on my own private property in the middle of the woods. TransCanada is ordering police to arrest me just for trying to take a walk across my own farm."

"The main goal of corporations working in this way is to try to have a small group of activists get hammered with serious charges so the community will be afraid to stand up and protest"
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/big-oils-fight-for-keystone-xl-includes-tracking-critics-activists/




In Oklahoma, for instance, undercover police officers infiltrated a group of protesters, preempting a planned demonstration at a TransCanada storage facility, according to a police report obtained by Bloomberg News.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-24/on-terror-alert-inside-big-oil-s-fight-to-build-keystone

Quote from: patric on April 09, 2015, 06:23:04 PM
As in Eminent Domain? 
Scores of people who lost their farms to the Canadian pipeline (XL) might be able to address that.

Quite a few people in East BA lost their land for the Creek extension when they refused the low ball offers.

Quote from: DolfanBob on April 10, 2015, 12:38:52 PM
Quite a few people in East BA lost their land for the Creek extension when they refused the low ball offers.

Let's not forget the fiasco with the Denver Grill during the land acquisition phase of the BOK Center construction.  I'm glad the arena got built, but sometimes the bullying has got to stop.

Quote from: patric on April 10, 2015, 12:12:54 PM
All of them?  Doesnt sound reasonable.  How about we start 3 months ago...


TransCanada had spent the last six years "bullying" landowners into signing away the rights to their land, but a group of about 100 is prepared to continue fighting.  Crumly said her family first heard from TransCanada when a company representative called at 9:30 p.m. a few years ago to tell them that the planned route would go through their land. At the time, she said, TransCanada made them an offer that was less than the price of a set of tires for an irrigation rig.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-keystone-land-2015-0120-story.html

Or you could just hit the "back" button on your browser...

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18662.msg254809#msg254809

Arthur Judge, a Wood County deputy sheriff, admitted to Texas landowner Susan Scott that TransCanada was paying the police by the hour to work private security details. "He was patrolling the easement on my farm and he informed me that his mandate was to arrest anyone at anytime that sets foot on the easement," attests Ms. Scott. "The officer also demanded that I show ID or he would arrest me, all this while I was standing on my own private property in the middle of the woods. TransCanada is ordering police to arrest me just for trying to take a walk across my own farm."

"The main goal of corporations working in this way is to try to have a small group of activists get hammered with serious charges so the community will be afraid to stand up and protest"
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/big-oils-fight-for-keystone-xl-includes-tracking-critics-activists/




In Oklahoma, for instance, undercover police officers infiltrated a group of protesters, preempting a planned demonstration at a TransCanada storage facility, according to a police report obtained by Bloomberg News.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-24/on-terror-alert-inside-big-oil-s-fight-to-build-keystone

Still no evidence of scores of people who lost their farms to Keystone XL.

Fracking and drilling help us break away from the OPEC strangle hold. I'm a strong supporter of drilling for our own oil and gas. I also favor coal one of our most abundant natural  resources.  :)

Quote from: sauerkraut on April 13, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
Fracking and drilling help us break away from the OPEC strangle hold. I'm a strong supporter of drilling for our own oil and gas. I also favor coal one of our most abundant natural  resources.  :)

Once again. Consider doing some research on the subject or listen to some different media sources. We are not in a strangle hold and haven't been for some time. We have what is called a "surplus" of supply in both oil and gas. Coal is rapidly declining in importance (you should invest heavily in it). Electric and solar are gaining in importance (best stay away from that Tesla stock).

Try Newsweek, Huffington, Kiplinger Report or the Coronets and Life magazines in your basement.

note. for those who aren't aware of my snide personality...several parts of that post were sarcasm and insider jokes. Coronet went out of business after failing to acknowledge the reality of the post war economics. They predicted Dewey would beat Truman based on phone polling. Turns out only the wealthy had phones at that time. Sauer simply lives in a world that ignores reality.

Well Duh!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/capitol_report/governor-s-office-oklahoma-geological-survey-acknowledge-disposal-wells-likely/article_8f6203fd-c7a9-5d38-a0b1-ab020c655d86.html

Quote from: AquaMan on April 13, 2015, 11:13:43 AM
Once again. Consider doing some research on the subject or listen to some different media sources. We are not in a strangle hold and haven't been for some time. We have what is called a "surplus" of supply in both oil and gas. Coal is rapidly declining in importance (you should invest heavily in it). Electric and solar are gaining in importance (best stay away from that Tesla stock).

Try Newsweek, Huffington, Kiplinger Report or the Coronets and Life magazines in your basement.

Tesla is in the final installation stages of a supercharger station in Perry, OK.  Took some pictures the other day and it is very close to opening.

Quote from: sauerkraut on April 13, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
Fracking and drilling help us break away from the OPEC strangle hold. I'm a strong supporter of drilling for our own oil and gas. I also favor coal one of our most abundant natural  resources.  :)

I'm sure you are and do.  It's the way you are...

I missed this comment or I would have replied earlier.

Oil and gas pipeline companies have the power of eminent domain in most states. The concept of "public use" is pretty broadly applied. The power of eminent domain is supposed to be limited to public utilities, but any company affiliated with a public utility appears to get a free ride.

A couple of judges in Nebraska drew the line at the Keystone pipeline, though, and entered a temporary restraining order against use of eminent domain by the Canadian company that would own the pipeline. News reports failed to shed much light about the legal issues there, but there seems to be concern that that condemnor was a foreign corporation. The Washington Post reported that the Nebraska legislature had earlier passed a bill allowing the Governor to approve the pipeline. The constitutionality of that law is in question. The company spokesman implied that the power of eminent domain is always available to establish corridors for the safe transportation of "necessary commodities" such as food, oil, gas, and power. As far as I can tell, the case is pending before the Nebraska Supreme Court. I think there were some 90 landowners objecting to the pipeline using their land, along with some Indian tribes. A landowner quoted in one article caught the issue pretty well. She said "We understand public use. What we don't understand is the taking of private land simply for corporate profit."

Until the Nebraska Supreme Court rules, the general rule remains that eminent domain can be used to take private property for the laying of oil and gas pipelines.

Quote from: Conan71 on April 09, 2015, 09:06:17 PM

Do you have links to all these farms lost?

You do realize the farmers would have been paid very good money for that 50 to 100' wide ROW across their property, right?  It's not like it would have been lost by eminent domain.

God we provide so much fodder for this show:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/be7rjx/shakes-on-a-plain---secret-agent-can

Quote from: patric on April 24, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
God we provide so much fodder for this show:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/be7rjx/shakes-on-a-plain---secret-agent-can

Oklahoma, where being in an industry's pocket can be obvious as Hell and it's no big deal.

Oklahoma House's Top Democrat Decries Loss of Local Control

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/oklahoma-houses-top-democrat-decries-loss-local-control (http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/oklahoma-houses-top-democrat-decries-loss-local-control)

QuoteOKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Oklahoma House's top Democrat says his caucus was disappointed by passage of a Republican-backed bill that prohibits cities and towns from regulating oil and natural gas drilling operations.

House Democrat Leader Scott Inman of Del City said Thursday that members of the House minority caucus believe local communities and their leaders should have authority to regulate the drilling operations in their areas.

The House passed the bill on Wednesday by a vote of 64-32 that was largely along party lines. The bill's author, Republican House Speaker Jeff Hickman of Fairview, says a hodgepodge of local regulations involving oil and gas drilling had created a patchwork of guidelines that were difficult for oil and gas operators to follow.

Inman opposed the bill and says it's a disservice to Oklahomans.

Quote from: Townsend on April 24, 2015, 12:42:58 PM
Oklahoma, where being in an industry's pocket can be obvious as Hell and it's no big deal.

Inhofe has stated for years he gets millions from big oil.  And then follows it up with the comment, it's not enough, they should donate more to him!

And yet, like Failin', we keep electing him.

Oklahoma Geological Survey office is closing...and so soon after they tied deep injection wells related to the energy companies with our recent spate of earthquakes.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-geological-survey-closing-leonard-seismic-observatory-out-of-cost-concerns/article/5414539 (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-geological-survey-closing-leonard-seismic-observatory-out-of-cost-concerns/article/5414539)

If we could only figure out a way to incrementally ease pressures along fault lines causing small seismic events instead of catastrophic ones. 

Sure would save a lot of lives.

Why does this not surprise me?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-15/oil-tycoon-harold-hamm-wanted-scientists-dismissed-dean-s-e-mail-says

Quote from: Hoss on May 18, 2015, 09:58:20 AM
Why does this not surprise me?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-15/oil-tycoon-harold-hamm-wanted-scientists-dismissed-dean-s-e-mail-says

This is a tiny little subset of what life will be like when the complete abdication of Federal oversight to corporate entity is finished.  Or right now, since corporate interests have bought and paid for Congress at Federal and State level.  For regular people (the 99%) it shows graphically why a strong Federal government that IS responsive to the electorate is so important.  Shame we don't have one....