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Talk About Tulsa => Development & New Businesses => Topic started by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2011, 11:00:46 PM

Title: BOK Center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2011, 11:00:46 PM
This is becoming slightly dated, but figured I would post it anyway.  The numbers are out now about the first year and a half for the BOK center.  (Tulsa World info)

Construction cost  $ 196 million

Total sales tax Revenue   $  6.945 million
To city    $ 2.444 million
To state $ 3.667 million
To county $ 833,000

Profit;
Income $ 21.184 million
Expense $ 16.619 million
Profit   $ 4,564 million

Total profit and tax to city;  $ 7.008 million

So, we are looking at about $ 2.8 million per year, which hopefully will grow over the next few years.  Lets give it $ 5 million per year expected annual average.

That means a payback of 70 years at current rate.  Or 39.2 years at double the current, hopefully growing rate.  Or a little over 19 years if the profit grows to $ 10 million per year.  (Can we reasonably expect $ 10 million a year for some period of time??)

What this is all leading up to is the question for the real business people out there.  If you were presented with this performance as a business plan, would you "do the deal"??  In particular, would a bank, like maybe BOK, do this deal?? 










Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on March 29, 2011, 11:12:08 PM


If you were presented with this performance as a business plan, would you "do the deal"?? NO  In particular, would a bank, like maybe BOK, do this deal??  NO

You watch, when Bolton bolts (another year and a half) the fat lady will be singing at the BOK.

BTW, can we see those deferred maintenance projections for ten years out?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: nathanm on March 29, 2011, 11:17:28 PM
It seems someone either committed an error in arithmetic or provided incorrect information in their post.

Additionally, government is not a business. Measuring it by the standard of business is ridiculous.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: custosnox on March 29, 2011, 11:24:29 PM
Where is the info on the tax revenue brought in from the increased business to the area?  Or does that not count because it would show too favoriably?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on March 29, 2011, 11:43:20 PM
I have heard from UofA fans from Arizona that were impressed by the BOk Center and Tulsa in general and this was from people from Tucson, and from Phoenix, as well as people that watched the games on TV, and they were impressed by Tulsa, and by the BOk center in general. This is a positive for Tulsa, and something that will draw for future events. Something that has drawn national attention, is the Chili Bowl Nationals, I have lost track of the people that have asked me about that event. Tulsa is starting to get recognition that it deserves and is making it's way. Living in AZ, and having people ask, "Where would you go, and what would you do?" in Tulsa is a huge plus.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on March 29, 2011, 11:59:00 PM
Almost every public arena project after three years loses money as a standalone facility.  The fact that the BOK has been turning a profit has been very good, especially in these economic lean times.

But the comments made here are correct.  Just because the building itself is making or not making a profit doesn't take away from the intangibles.  Sales tax revenue generated by people who otherwise would not have come into town because of the events this venue is now drawing as compared to pre August 2008 when large venues usually went down the pike.  Now it's the OKC residents who are complaining about us getting acts like Rush, Foo Fighters and more.

Plus, with a metro/expanded metro area approaching 1 million people, the old dilapidated Convention Center needed replacing/augmenting.  It's actually turned out great for the smaller shows.  Save the marquee acts for the marquee facility.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 12:20:53 AM
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 29, 2011, 11:43:20 PM
I have heard from UofA fans from Arizona that were impressed by the BOk Center and Tulsa in general and this was from people from Tucson, and from Phoenix, as well as people that watched the games on TV, and they were impressed by Tulsa, and by the BOk center in general. This is a positive for Tulsa, and something that will draw for future events. Something that has drawn national attention, is the Chili Bowl Nationals, I have lost track of the people that have asked me about that event. Tulsa is starting to get recognition that it deserves and is making it's way. Living in AZ, and having people ask, "Where would you go, and what would you do?" in Tulsa is a huge plus.

A lot of people from Arizona and California dump a ton of sales tax money here every January for the Chili Bowl.

Speaking to the O/T, it's not a matter of profit, it's a matter of value.  BOK Center doesn't have to make a profit, it simply needs to pay it's own way.  No one expects a park and rec center, public school, university, or museum to make a profit, yet they like it because it adds to the livability factor of a city.  

How much more attractive is Tulsa with a great concert and sports venue than what we had to offer in 2007?  It's brought a positive image to Tulsa with the shows we've booked and the sporting events now televised nationwide.

Without BOK Center would we have gotten the following: Sir Paul, Sir Elton (x2), The Eagles (x2), The Boss, Dave Matthews, Erck Clapner (Slowhand), and countless others?  Not even possible.  The center has also acted as a catalyst for private investment downtown.  I suppose it's entirely possible that the current and future success the Blue Dome and Brady (Franklin to TTC) District are enjoying could have happened without the BOK and OneOk Field, but statistically, downtown areas do much better with major attractions.  It helps create a synergy.  Essentially it's been a factor in anchoring redevelopment of downtown.

Granted, Tulsa doesn't have a great track record on maintaining our assets.  I can agree with TTC on that count.  Let's hope they are keeping up with this building and not siphoning off funds from the profits to fund the Mayor's cronies executive branch of our city government.  I disagree that Bolton is the sole reason for our successful bookings.  SMG is a whole lot bigger than Bolton.  If something happens to him, BOK will soldier on, as will the BOK.

I wasn't a fan of the BOK nor V-2025 and voted against it.  I gladly admit I was wrong.  Let's just hope we don't fall prey to "needed upgrades" in 10 years.  I was watching a story on Ch. 9 in OKC the other night that the director of the OKC convention bureau is screaming because their new convention center won't even be on the table until 2018, which is supposedly costing them convention business because the Ford and Cox centers apparently aren't what event planners are looking for??  WTH?

And after that screed if you are still hung up on the economics, consider that the dirt that building sets on won't lose value with other planned improvements in the area. 
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: TURobY on March 30, 2011, 12:31:11 AM
This stupid question comes up nearly every year. And the answer never changes.

Regardless of the economics, the voters agreed to the tax to build it. The arena was a VERY well-known component of V-2025; there was some utility function that made the economics of the arena valuable enough for voters to approve it.

Simply put: If you didn't want it, then you should've voted against it and garnered more support for your cause SEVERAL years ago. You didn't.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on March 30, 2011, 12:42:42 AM
Just want to say, that people I know that came to Tulsa for the UofA games, enjoyed their stay in Tulsa and Oklahoma, and would return.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 05:21:09 AM
Quote from: dbacks fan on March 30, 2011, 12:42:42 AM
Just want to say, that people I know that came to Tulsa for the UofA games, enjoyed their stay in Tulsa and Oklahoma, and would return.

And that is the prize. The BOK wasn't really intended to make a profit. It was intended to enhance the quality of life for Tulsans and people from surrounding communities. And it's giving us huge recognition around the country. I have friends from Chicago and Indiana that were amazed by the BOK Center. And these people have friends and family that they tell this to also...

I firmly believe that if V25 had not been passed, Tulsa would be dying right now. We would be losing poulation, and people around the country would instead think of us as the next Detroit. I much prefer the attention from the BOK Center to that.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: sgrizzle on March 30, 2011, 08:10:59 AM
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 29, 2011, 11:00:46 PM

What this is all leading up to is the question for the real business people out there.  If you were presented with this performance as a business plan, would you "do the deal"??  In particular, would a bank, like maybe BOK, do this deal?? 





CoT crews will be arriving at your house shortly to remove the road in front of your house. It hasn't made the return on investment they expected.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: we vs us on March 30, 2011, 08:12:06 AM
Definitely an unqualified success.  Conan said it perfectly:  with a marquee facility like that, it's not the cost but the value, and the value to date of the BOK has been exceptional.  It's a jewel in Tulsa's cap, without a doubt.  
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Red Arrow on March 30, 2011, 08:12:55 AM
Quote from: sgrizzle on March 30, 2011, 08:10:59 AM
CoT crews will be arriving at your house shortly to remove the road in front of your house. It hasn't made the return on investment they expected.

Turn it over to the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority.

:D
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: cannon_fodder on March 30, 2011, 08:33:50 AM
Everyone agrees the numbers are above what we expected.  No matter what they reflected you would have posted this.  You can post the same on nealry every publicly owned venue.

Also, according to the numbers you posted the venue is paying for itself AND dumping millions into the city/county in direct tax payments.  So isn't that free infrastructure that also generates revenue?  Unless I'm missing something because you failed to account for the bonds, it looks like we got a great deal.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on March 30, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
You are right.  We should tear it down and make a parking lot now.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 10:59:18 AM
Quote from: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 05:21:09 AM
And that is the prize. The BOK wasn't really intended to make a profit. It was intended to enhance the quality of life for Tulsans and people from surrounding communities. And it's giving us huge recognition around the country. I have friends from Chicago and Indiana that were amazed by the BOK Center. And these people have friends and family that they tell this to also...

I firmly believe that if V25 had not been passed, Tulsa would be dying right now. We would be losing poulation, and people around the country would instead think of us as the next Detroit. I much prefer the attention from the BOK Center to that.

Aside from that, every community in Tulsa County got new facilities which have improved the streetscape and quality of life for their residents.  Every demographic is even well-served from what V-2025 has provided.

I truly was a skeptic of it and was against it, but seeing the difference in the area over the last 8 years, it's really amazing and more projects are still coming.  It's hard for me to fathom anyone thinking this has not been a worthy investment.  The Civic Center area would still look like post-modern Beirut without V-2025.

This is from another thread we had on the BOK last summer.  

"The ROI for community reinvestment isn't as subjective as it is in the business world where money is always the bottom line.  What's the price of pride in the community?  What's the price of being able to add to the quality of life by bringing Paul McCartney to town instead of 3000 or 4000 people going down the pike or to KC or Dallas to see him?  I realize that's one show, but it says something about Tulsa when we are worthy enough to bring in that sort of talent which instills some pride in all of us."

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=15649.90

For those of you who weren't around when that thread was active, it's good reading and contains some great perspective from Blake Ewing (Joe Momma Blake).  It also appears to have been the swan song for a certain Tulsa blogger on this forum as he's not commented on a thread ever since.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: DTowner on March 30, 2011, 11:28:34 AM
Yea, the annual "the BOK Center sucks because it's an investment no business would make" thread.

As noted in this thread and all the ones previous on this topic - the BOK Center was the Tulsa area showing a commitment to itself and the quality of life this area can offer.  It was also a public expenditure intended to attract and spur private investment in and to revitalize downtown.  On both fronts the BOK Center has been an unqualified success.  This is true even though the commercial development/lending markets have been in a major recession since the BOK opened.  The evidence of private investment in downtown Tulsa being made primarily as a result of or in response to the BOK Center (and ONG Field) are overwhelming and starting to gain real momentum.

The nay sayers had their say, lost the vote, lost the argument, and now have lost all credibility.  Give it up and move on to perpetuating the myth that the turnpikes are all supposed to be free roads by now or some other crazy notion.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 11:39:31 AM
I want to give the naysayers about the BokCenter a break.

This whole thing could have gone wrong. There are plenty of examples of arenas becoming black holes in downtowns that become magnets for crime on nights when not being used. The location was odd (near the jail and government buildings with no retail close by). The price tag was the biggest public funded single project in our city's history. And we knew that the economy was struggling.

There were plenty of reasons to be wary.

I think it was a gamble that worked. Kathy Taylor stepped in and privately raised millions of dollars to cover cost overruns. SMG brought in wonderful acts. Local entreprenuers found buildings to quickly remodel into restaurants. The economy in Tulsa wasn't as bad as other parts of the country.

I love the place. I have been to dozens of events. I am glad it worked out, but it could have gone the other way.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 11:50:00 AM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 11:39:31 AM
I want to give the naysayers about the BokCenter a break.

This whole thing could have gone wrong. There are plenty of examples of arenas becoming black holes in downtowns that become magnets for crime on nights when not being used. The location was odd (near the jail and government buildings with no retail close by). The price tag was the biggest public funded single project in our city's history. And we knew that the economy was struggling.

There were plenty of reasons to be wary.

I think it was a gamble that worked. Kathy Taylor stepped in and privately raised millions of dollars to cover cost overruns. SMG brought in wonderful acts. Local entreprenuers found buildings to quickly remodel into restaurants. The economy in Tulsa wasn't as bad as other parts of the country.

I love the place. I have been to dozens of events. I am glad it worked out, but it could have gone the other way.

It could have, but it didn't.  So the naysayers, at least for now, need to kick another rock down the street.  I'm sure it's possible for it to fall on it's face in the future.  However, as long as it's one of the top grossing venues in North America, that becomes a dynamic momentum that's pretty hard to shut down.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Breadburner on March 30, 2011, 11:54:06 AM
Give me an example of an arena thats failed.....
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Red Arrow on March 30, 2011, 11:55:47 AM
Quote from: Breadburner on March 30, 2011, 11:54:06 AM
Give me an example of an arena thats failed.....

I believe the Pyramid in Memphis has failed but been replaced in another part of town closer to Beale St.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on March 30, 2011, 12:02:36 PM
Quote from: Breadburner on March 30, 2011, 11:54:06 AM
Give me an example of an arena thats failed.....

It hasn't failed yet, but look at Jobing.com Arena and the Phoenix Coyotes.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/121227 (http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/LaurieRoberts/121227)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 12:06:15 PM
Stockton, California.  http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090731/A_NEWS0803/907310309/-1/A_NEWS08

Seattle, Washington  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008112738_keyarena14m.html

Minneapolis, Minnesota  http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92594769.html

Denver, Colorado  http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/01/how_doomed_is_the_broomfield_e.php
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on March 30, 2011, 12:10:12 PM
And to add insult to injury, Jobbing.com's neighbor, University of Phoenix stadium is in jepordy of losing the Fiesta Bowl.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/03/30/20110330fiesta-bowl-ncaa-license.html (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/03/30/20110330fiesta-bowl-ncaa-license.html)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 12:14:57 PM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 12:06:15 PM
Stockton, California.  http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090731/A_NEWS0803/907310309/-1/A_NEWS08

Seattle, Washington  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008112738_keyarena14m.html

Minneapolis, Minnesota  http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92594769.html

Denver, Colorado  http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/01/how_doomed_is_the_broomfield_e.php

Who goes to Stockton, Ca. anyhow?
Broomfield's center looks about like the S'pank in Bixby
Minneapolis is losing business to the arena in it's twin city
Seattle is just full of FAIL since they let the Sonics get away.

Understood, but those are all different scenarios than Tulsa. You don't want to give the doom and gloom lobby too much to hang onto anyhow  ;)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 12:21:13 PM
Stockton has 300,000 residents. It ain't much smaller than Tulsa. 
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: nathanm on March 30, 2011, 12:24:25 PM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 12:21:13 PM
Stockton has 300,000 residents. It ain't much smaller than Tulsa. 
Yeah, but it's more like Bixby than Tulsa in everything but population.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Breadburner on March 30, 2011, 12:29:57 PM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 12:06:15 PM
Stockton, California.  http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090731/A_NEWS0803/907310309/-1/A_NEWS08

Seattle, Washington  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008112738_keyarena14m.html

Minneapolis, Minnesota  http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-92594769.html

Denver, Colorado  http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/01/how_doomed_is_the_broomfield_e.php

Poor examples at best.....None of those have failed.....And at least two are smallish event centers......Anything else.....
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on March 30, 2011, 12:34:44 PM
Oracle Arena, Oakland CA, when the Golden State Warriors move.

http://bayareacomre.com/2010/03/29/rumor-golden-state-warriors-eyeing-a-move-to-san-francisco/ (http://bayareacomre.com/2010/03/29/rumor-golden-state-warriors-eyeing-a-move-to-san-francisco/)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 12:37:57 PM
Fortunately the Talons and Oilers are pretty stable franchises and don't need to sell 18,000 seats to make payroll.  Not sure how the WNBA is fairing, but if that franchise goes elsewhere, it shouldn't affect the BOK one iota.  Now if OKC were to lose the Thunder, it would really make a dent.  I do suspect we've gotten some shows simply because the Thunder were playing and bands could not book OKC as a logical stop on their tour.  However, the great sales numbers speak for themselves when it comes to promoters.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: swake on March 30, 2011, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 12:37:57 PM
.  I do suspect we've gotten some shows simply because the Thunder were playing and bands could not book OKC as a logical stop on their tour.  However, the great sales numbers speak for themselves when it comes to promoters.

I keep hearing that argument and I don't buy it. First OKC only has the Thunder that play in The (Formerly known as)Ford Center. Their arena football team went kaput and their hockey team plays next door. The Thunder have 41 homes games and that's it for dates filled by sports. The BOK Center has the Talons with 9 games, the Oilers with 32 and the Shock with 17. The BOK has 58 dates filled by sports teams to Oklahoma City's 41.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: swake on March 30, 2011, 01:00:40 PM
I keep hearing that argument and I don't buy it. First OKC only has the Thunder that play in The (Formerly known as)Ford Center. Their arena football team went kaput and their hockey team plays next door. The Thunder have 41 homes games and that's it for dates filled by sports. The BOK Center has the Talons with 9 games, the Oilers with 32 and the Shock with 17. The BOK has 58 dates filled by sports teams to Oklahoma City's 41.

As I said, "some" shows.  Leaves me a big enough out  ;)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Cats Cats Cats on March 30, 2011, 02:04:40 PM
Quote from: swake on March 30, 2011, 01:00:40 PM
I keep hearing that argument and I don't buy it. First OKC only has the Thunder that play in The (Formerly known as)Ford Center. Their arena football team went kaput and their hockey team plays next door. The Thunder have 41 homes games and that's it for dates filled by sports. The BOK Center has the Talons with 9 games, the Oilers with 32 and the Shock with 17. The BOK has 58 dates filled by sports teams to Oklahoma City's 41.

Those number speak for themselves.  There is almost no way that we would get more of a benefit from them than they would out of us.  Unless somehow all their events magically coincide with the tours.  Which I doubt.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 02:51:38 PM
In case anyone was wondering, Michael Bates still thinks the arena wasn't worth the investment:

"While we can be proud that visitors came to Tulsa and had a good time, we do need a clear-eyed look at the financial benefit of such an event to Tulsans in comparison to what it cost us to bring it to town -- $178 million for the venue alone, not including debt service on the bonds that built it.

Even if you believe the estimate of $15 million in "economic impact" and assume that it's all taxable and that it all represents money that wouldn't otherwise be spent here, that amounts to $602,500 in city and county sales taxes. It would take the equivalent of 295 NCAA men's basketball opening rounds to give as much local revenue back for the benefit of Tulsa County residents -- in the form of street improvements, police protection, park maintenance, etc. -- as they paid to build the arena. Our next opportunity at an NCAA opening round is in 2014."


http://www.batesline.com/

Might be a relevant argument if the BOK Center were built soley for the purpose of this NCAA tournament.  I guess he's still hung up on the cost rather than the value.  Can anyone on here say they like the way downtown looked in 2003 better than it looks now?



Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 03:21:09 PM
Downtown sucked in 2003. The only attraction it had was the penguins. And I dont really call that an attraction. If Vision 25 had never been passed then I probably couldn't give you a vague idea of what it looked like. That's how little I would be down there. But it did pass, and my family goes downtown quite often. Just this year I have been to two events at the BOK Center, one at the Cain's, went to the Christmas Parade, the MLK parade, and have competed in two runs (Tulsa & Bedlam). If downtown was still what it was like in 2003, then you could probably wipe all those off the board, except maybe the parade. We go downtown because it is nice and it's a fun change from Bixby. After college I would love to move downtown. I know that I would not be saying this if V25 had not kick started development. Hopefully by the time I'm living in downtown there will only be a few empty lots left, now that would be awesome.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 03:23:35 PM
And I believe Bixby got some nice projects out of the program as well.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 03:33:07 PM
Yep, we did :D
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on March 30, 2011, 03:47:53 PM
I don't enjoy having to agree with Mista Bates....
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on March 30, 2011, 03:47:53 PM
I don't enjoy having to agree with Mista Bates....

Explain your reasoning behind agreeing with him. After seeing everything that the BOK Center has done I don't see how you could...
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on March 30, 2011, 04:00:27 PM
Quote from: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
Explain your reasoning behind agreeing with him. After seeing everything that the BOK Center has done I don't see how you could...

Best thing that happened for BOK was the Thunder....I am one of few Tulsan's who love the Thunder!
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on March 30, 2011, 04:06:30 PM
NO you're not. I don't know anybody who likes basketball who doesn't love the Thunder.

You still didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on March 30, 2011, 04:07:13 PM
Now now....do not bate me. ;D
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: bmuscotty on March 30, 2011, 04:25:03 PM
QuoteFortunately the Talons and Oilers are pretty stable franchises and don't need to sell 18,000 seats to make payroll.

IMO I don't think the Talons will be playing here next year.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: godboko71 on March 30, 2011, 04:38:54 PM
Quote from: bmuscotty on March 30, 2011, 04:25:03 PM
IMO I don't think the Talons will be playing here next year.

That would be sad considering the league is based out of Tulsa or are they moving the headquarters too?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: YoungTulsan on March 30, 2011, 05:15:35 PM
The arena is infrastructure.  Maybe a little frivolous, but arenas funded by tax dollars are standard in markets our size, and not having one would put us behind.  Halting its construction would both not help us locally, and make no difference in the national norm.

So unless you feel like convincing the top 50 or 100 markets to stop subsidizing the entertainment industry along with us, we can only lose.   Hence, this is now considered infrastructure.

Saying that it doesn't turn a profit is like saying roads don't turn profits.  But without road infrastructure in the first place, so much economic activity would never take place at all.   Without a modern facility, there is a whole sector of the entertainment industry that would simply not come to Tulsa.

If we kept doing nothing for downtown in 2003 and continued on that path, people would be complaining that this place is about as depressing as Chernobyl.  How many folks wouldn't live here anymore?   Not that big of a difference?  A few people abandoning the economy has residual effects, and grows exponentially as their descendants have descendants, and so on.

Going the arena route is what started the momentum, and the fact that we went the extra mile to build a quality one likely has something to do with its success.  So the question is, how else could we have sparked up momentum in downtown?  What other methods are currently working in other markets to revitalize their urban cores other than the entertainment industry?  Perhaps a technology center?  A civic center?  Jails? Maybe we could focus on more "retro" industries to impress the youngsters.  Textiles could make a huge comeback.   Or perhaps haberdasheries could spring up big.  I have a sword I need forging and there seems to be a lack of good swordsmiths in the immediate vicinity.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: we vs us on March 30, 2011, 07:05:33 PM
Pitting total cost vs two years of operating profits is ridiculous. Venues like the BOK will be in operation for years (hopefully) and will have a couple of decades to make back the initial investment.  Evaluating it at the two-year mark is useful only in establishing what possible revenue might look like.  I'd say that, judging by the quality and frequency of its bookings, the chance of making back the initial investment looks very very good. 
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 10:51:16 PM
Someone go to Batesline and point that out.  Or does he even allow dissenting opinions on his blog?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 10:51:16 PM
Someone go to Batesline and point that out.  Or does he even allow dissenting opinions on his blog?

Yes. I have often commented on Michael Bates blog. I argue with his reasoning on many political topics. He always posts them and argue back.

He makes good arguments and does his research. I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on March 30, 2011, 11:44:18 PM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
Yes. I have often commented on Michael Bates blog. I argue with his reasoning on many political topics. He always posts them and argue back.

He makes good arguments and does his research. I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.

How about wrong and unprepared..oh wait, I think you argue with someone like that HERE....
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on March 30, 2011, 11:51:17 PM
Quote from: RecycleMichael on March 30, 2011, 11:04:56 PM
I like arguing with people who are prepared but still wrong.

I love that!

Michael is very well-researched and he's a real treasure for they city as an amateur historian and factitian/statistician.  In that regard, he's every bit the historian Beryl Ford was, if not better.

However, like so many scientists and engineers, he fails to realize that what makes sense on paper sometimes has no basis in a real world, much like economics.  I'm only sorry he disappeared after the dust up on the BOK/Sprint Center thread.  He complained it seemed like we didn't allow debate on here which is really far from the truth.  I gathered from that, he didn't want to be proven wrong at all cost.  I lost my temper with him slightly by offering to buy his proportional share of the arena and he took it that we didn't like dissention here.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: bmuscotty on March 31, 2011, 10:57:21 AM
QuoteThat would be sad considering the league is based out of Tulsa or are they moving the headquarters too?

Maybe. They have only been here for a year (?). Would not effect that many jobs. If i'm not mistaken when the offices moved here it was the AF2 headquarters. They came from Chicago who did not have an AF2 team. Only an AFL team (Chicago Rush).

Since the merge Tulsa is one of very few small market teams left in the league. Most other AF2 teams folded, when to other leagues or moved to greener arenas. 

Talons are off to an 0-3 start, worst in franchise history. Most of the key players from last season are gone. Moved on to bigger cities and more money. Tulsa was not able to keep up. Mostly a rookie team now with hardly and indoor experience. Current ownership does not promote the Talons as it should and has financial interst in other teams as well.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2011, 10:25:58 PM
Wow.  This sure got some reaction.  That is nice.

I wasn't making an argument against it (or for it).  I was asking the questions since new information had been posted in the news.  The numbers were copied directly from the front page of the Tulsa World a few weeks ago.  I AM stunned - and it ain't easy to stun me - that someone didn't recognize/remember that.

As for 'additional revenue' - I made allowance for that by showing the times for double and triple the rate.  Double at this point would be a very optimistic estimation of "all the other business brought to town".  (Those arguments are much like the arguments that turnpikes are good because it lets all the rest of the world's travelers buy our roads for us.)

I believe we do get people in from way outside the area.  I don't believe it is even 1/2 let alone 100% of that additional revenue.  That would kind of mean that not many Tulsan's are attending events - only out of towners.  And that ain't happening.  And let me go one step further and define what I mean about "Tulsan's" - the Tulsa metro area.  Out of towners being those that would reasonably be required to spend the night for an event - would not drive home until the next day.  Or fly, or orb, or whatever.

And then the whole idea of infrastructure and government purpose - I am very much a believer in government doing the kind of things that may not make pure economic sense, but greatly enhance the life of the people.  Kind of like the CCC building ALL of our state lodges in the late 30s.  National and state parks.  All of that type of thing that makes like more liveable.

But then I am also NOT one of those who beats the drum about how government should be run like a business.  Like so many with a certain orientation not mentioned in polite company.

And roads are a horrible example of arguing about things not "paying" for themselves.  They literally ARE the things in this country that DO pay, not just for themselves, but for a massively huge piece of the rest of the economy.  Roads in general are the best bargain and the best investment the world has ever seen, starting with the Roman empire.  Roads make us (the US as we know it) possible.  No other single item is more important.  Even the invention of the wheel itself was just a side-show curiosity until the invention of the road.

And in particular, the road in front of my house was priced at a cost of around $1100 when it was built (paved - 1964).  At least that was the number and assessment made at the time.  And I guarantee you the city, county and state have made that back so many times, they should feel ashamed and give me a refund.  Especially considering how badly maintained it has been over the years.



Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on April 01, 2011, 12:45:09 AM
This reply maybe an apples to oranges comparison to some, but I think there is som relevance.

In 1991 the Phoenix Suns wanted a new place for the team, so at that time they built what was then America West Arena. (Comperable to BOk). When it was built, there really wasn't alot downtown. It was built near railyards, near the area where two failed Formula 1 races where held, and just not in the best of places. It opened in '92 and was met with great sucess, and it spurred development, and redevelopment of the area. Four years later, it was brought up to bring MLB to AZ and in particular Phoenix, and they built, at that time and I still call it Bank One Ballpark, which further spurred a change in downtown. An area that in 1990 was a ghost town part of downtown Phoenix has completely changed to a place to go even if there is nothing going on at either facility.

Downtown Tulsa from what I have read over the last few years is going the same direction. And I will admit that whe I moved from Tulsa in '98, downtown closed at about 3 in the afternoon, and anything after 5:30 didn't exist, or you were on the wrong side of the tracks going to something at Cain's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I love the fact that downtown is alive again for the first time since the early 70's, and I as much as many others want it to be a place of a lot of things, hotel, food, drink and entertainment, it has to grow, and change, it will be something.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on April 01, 2011, 01:03:46 AM
By The Way, don't start me on parking. I will only say this, you could take half of the surface lots downtown and turn them into 5 story garages, and solve most of the parking issues. And make parking downtown expensive. Parking in some areas of SF are $25 to $35 a day. And you could easily put in ground floor businesses, dry cleaners, food shops, deli's, Kinkos/Fed Ex, etc. (Sorry I've spent too much time in LA and SF and San Diego, and Phoenix.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Red Arrow on April 01, 2011, 07:40:32 AM
Quote from: dbacks fan on April 01, 2011, 01:03:46 AM
By The Way, don't start me on parking. I will only say this, you could take half of the surface lots downtown and turn them into 5 story garages, and solve most of the parking issues. And make parking downtown expensive. Parking in some areas of SF are $25 to $35 a day. And you could easily put in ground floor businesses, dry cleaners, food shops, deli's, Kinkos/Fed Ex, etc. (Sorry I've spent too much time in LA and SF and San Diego, and Phoenix.

Don't make parking in Tulsa expensive until there is another way to get there.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on April 01, 2011, 12:41:51 PM
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 31, 2011, 10:25:58 PM
 And I guarantee you the city, county and state have made that back so many times, they should feel ashamed and give me a refund.  Especially considering how badly maintained it has been over the years.


They only give refunds to the RWRE and their cronies  ;)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 04, 2011, 07:28:29 PM
Conan,
That's the way it has been in the past, but I think it should change!

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on April 04, 2011, 10:26:37 PM
The wife and I saw Gaga's "little monsters" all the way on Cherry street this eve.  The BOK is more than just a destination.  It provides business for many venues.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: TheArtist on April 05, 2011, 09:47:49 AM
  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 

Btw also liked coming out of the BOK and seeing the old Adams Hotel lit up at night.  Had seen them working on it a while back but hadn't been in that part of downtown to notice all the lights at the top.  It looked like a royal crown. I have never seen anything like it in any other city. Just made you wonder what downtown would have looked like in its glory days.  Must have been an incredible sight to behold.   
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on April 05, 2011, 09:50:00 AM
Quote from: TheArtist on April 05, 2011, 09:47:49 AM
  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 


Were you the guy dressed as a hotdog?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: sgrizzle on April 05, 2011, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Townsend on April 05, 2011, 09:50:00 AM
Were you the guy dressed as a hotdog?

No, that was Conan, but he wasn't going to the concert.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on April 05, 2011, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: sgrizzle on April 05, 2011, 10:03:33 AM
No, that was Conan, but he wasn't going to the concert.

So creepy
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on April 05, 2011, 10:44:05 AM
Quote from: Townsend on April 05, 2011, 10:04:58 AM
So creepy

Must...scrub...image...from...brain....ahh!!!
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: nathanm on April 05, 2011, 10:47:33 AM
Quote from: Hoss on April 05, 2011, 10:44:05 AM
Must...scrub...image...from...brain....ahh!!!
Suddenly, I'm happy that I've yet to make one of the lunches and meet you guys. ;)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on April 05, 2011, 11:58:56 AM
I would like to go to one of those lunches just to see.  Would probably be mugged on sight, though.

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on April 05, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
Quote from: TheArtist on April 05, 2011, 09:47:49 AM
  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 

Btw also liked coming out of the BOK and seeing the old Adams Hotel lit up at night.  Had seen them working on it a while back but hadn't been in that part of downtown to notice all the lights at the top.  It looked like a royal crown. I have never seen anything like it in any other city. Just made you wonder what downtown would have looked like in its glory days.  Must have been an incredible sight to behold.   

Think her stage show is a bit too cumbersome for the Deco Ball next year?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: TheArtist on April 05, 2011, 03:28:03 PM
Quote from: Townsend on April 05, 2011, 09:50:00 AM
Were you the guy dressed as a hotdog?

Naaa, I am just naturally "hot" period.  No need to guild the lilly.  8)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: JCnOwasso on April 06, 2011, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: TheArtist on April 05, 2011, 09:47:49 AM
  Saw Lady Gaga last night.  WOW what a concert.  Was more like a Broadway musical production.  I have never seen so many complete stage changes, costume changes, etc. during a show like that.  It must have cost a small fortune just to put that production on.  And yes, the people watching was quite fun lol. 

Btw also liked coming out of the BOK and seeing the old Adams Hotel lit up at night.  Had seen them working on it a while back but hadn't been in that part of downtown to notice all the lights at the top.  It looked like a royal crown. I have never seen anything like it in any other city. Just made you wonder what downtown would have looked like in its glory days.  Must have been an incredible sight to behold.   

From what I hear, she spent close to a million in putting together the show... and that was as of a few months ago.  I am sure she is continuing to change it.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on June 17, 2011, 11:59:25 AM
http://www.cityoftulsa.org//enews/2011/6-17-11/bok-center.aspx?utm_source=eNews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=6-17-11 (http://www.cityoftulsa.org//enews/2011/6-17-11/bok-center.aspx?utm_source=eNews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=6-17-11)

BOK Center Named Best in the World

QuoteThe City of Tulsa's iconic BOK Center was recently awarded the 2011 Venue Excellence Award by The International Association of Venue Managers (IAVM). This prestigious award is given annually to only one arena in the world and recognizes the best arena based on four criteria used to demonstrate the ways in which the venue has excelled in the management and operation of a public assembly venue.

The criteria for the award includes: Operational Excellence, Teambuilding/Professional Development, Safety and Security, and Service to the Community.

Mayor Dewey Bartlett said, "The BOK Center under SMG's leadership has truly shown what a successful public/private partnership should look like. We couldn't have accomplished or received the praise, recognition, and acclaim without SMG. I especially want to thank John Bolton, the General Manager of the BOK Center. Our receipt of this prestigious award is due in large part to Mr. Bolton's leadership and vision."

"The BOK Center and SMG, in receiving this award, put themselves at the pinnacle of venue management. What the BOK Center has accomplished in just three short years is truly phenomenal," said Dexter King, President and CEO of the International Association of Venue Managers.

"As the world leader in venue management we expect the best and I'm happy to say that our management team in Tulsa has accomplished this goal in an amazing fashion," commented Wes Westley, President and CEO of SMG.

In accepting the award, John Bolton, General Manager of the SMG-managed facility, said, "To be recognized as the best takes an amazing team and I'm proud to say we have that team with SMG both here in Tulsa and in our corporate headquarters in Philadelphia. This award recognizes the hundreds of part-time and full-time employees who work every day to ensure our guests have an amazing experience."

The award will be presented July 25 during the IAVM annual conference and trade show in Phoenix, Arizona
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on June 17, 2011, 12:26:45 PM
Has Michael Bates made any comments about this?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 17, 2011, 12:31:31 PM
That's nuts! I saw the headline and didn't realize it was one in the world...
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: dbacks fan on June 17, 2011, 12:37:33 PM
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 17, 2011, 12:31:31 PM
That's nuts! I saw the headline and didn't realize it was one in the world...

Don't feel bad, I had to read it twice myself to make sure that I read it right. That's a defenite WIN in my book.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2011, 01:13:38 PM
Quote from: dbacks fan on June 17, 2011, 12:37:33 PM
Don't feel bad, I had to read it twice myself to make sure that I read it right. That's a defenite WIN in my book.

The building does reek of awesomeness...

On a serious note though, I've been to MANY arena venues and BOK beats the crap out of all of them.  I realize that sounds like homerism, but I've been to AA in Dallas, ScottTrade in St. Louis,  that hunk down the turnpike and more, and for sheer comfort and functionality, ours wins hands down.  Huge concourses (ScottTrade could have taken note of that, as well as the OKC Arena), abundant restrooms (at the FF concert I saw huge lines for the rooms.  Had some of the patrons taken the time to use the escalator up to the upper level, they would have found nearly empty facilities) the concessions are, in a word, awesome, and the front office staff is great.

Now if they could get the SMG stooges that patrol the aisles some proper training, they'd be even better.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2011, 01:33:44 PM
Flash in the pan.  This was a bad investment for Tulsa.  Totally ruined downtown and our image around the globe.  Total abuse of tax dollars.


Bahahahahahaha!


Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: BKDotCom on June 17, 2011, 02:01:41 PM
The BOK center is awesome, but... This award is for the best venue management, not the best arena or venue.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 17, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
I will stand by my prediction of 3 year profitability. Subscriber renewals may be telling as many have cut back since 2007.

WP moved their show from BOK to the Brady this Sunday (better venue anyway).

Bolton's done great. Will he bolt further down the road?

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2011, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: Floyd on June 17, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
To be fair, I don't think most folks were forecasting ruination.  There were just lots of questions about the way the thing went up and the proper use of tax dollars.  You're going to tell me the city/county has earned the right not to be second-guessed on these things?   First and foremost in my book is the location.  Just can't get behind the placement... best argument for it was proximity to the convention center, but I haven't seen the promised synergy.  Should have been closer to the entertainment district(s). 

But this is awesome anyway, and it has turned out even better than anyone could have expected.

Floyd, I was one of the worst skeptics and haters on this project.  Just wait until the new construction to the east is done, the A-Loft is open and we can re-purpose or demolish some other buildings like the Page Belcher Building, it will seem a lot more connected then.
Title: Re: BOK Tulsa's Socialized Entertainment Venue....
Post by: Teatownclown on June 17, 2011, 02:50:05 PM
Connected? Great. Please tell me how many "connected" events will be held over a year.

There won't be a road coming through there connecting old City Hall for some time.

Will the library disappear too, Conack?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: stageidea on June 17, 2011, 03:07:33 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 17, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
WP moved their show from BOK to the Brady this Sunday (better venue anyway).


Wow, I am glad I read this thread.  I wasn't aware the show had even moved. 
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 17, 2011, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: Floyd on June 17, 2011, 03:18:36 PM
I forget that you're the biggest convert on here.  And don't get me wrong--it's working out where it is--but having to repurpose City Hall and tear down a federal building make things a lot more complicated than, oh, say, just building the East End from scratch as the arena goes up.

Quite well understood.  It would have a little more synergy with the development in the Blue Dome for sure.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: BKDotCom on June 17, 2011, 03:29:08 PM
WP = Widespread Panic..   might save a few folks the need to visit the Brady's website to look that up.

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on June 17, 2011, 03:22:17 PM
Quite well understood.  It would have a little more synergy with the development in the Blue Dome for sure.

I think it has plenty of synergy with it as is.  It's a good compromise...it's needs to be connected to the convention center, or be relatively close.  And walking from the BOK to the Blue Dome?  About 6 minutes when I do it.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on June 17, 2011, 04:56:25 PM
Quote from: Hoss on June 17, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
And walking from the BOK to the Blue Dome?  About 6 minutes when I do it.

Pshhhht, walk?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 17, 2011, 04:58:59 PM
Quote from: Townsend on June 17, 2011, 04:56:25 PM
Pshhhht, walk?

You've seen me...you think I don't need it?  LOL.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Jeff P on June 18, 2011, 05:23:21 PM
Quote from: Hoss on June 17, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
I think it has plenty of synergy with it as is.  It's a good compromise...it's needs to be connected to the convention center, or be relatively close.  And walking from the BOK to the Blue Dome?  About 6 minutes when I do it.

Yeah - I do find it sort of interesting when people complain about the BOK's placement in this way.

I'm one of those people who wishes it would have been placed in Blue Dome, but I don't think it's THAT big of a deal.

As you noted... you can walk straight down 2nd Street from the arena and be in Blue Dome in about 6-8 minutes.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 18, 2011, 07:22:40 PM
1.  I'm thinling Widespread moving their show probably has more to do with the Brady being 3000 seats to the BOKs 20,000...  but I agree a show is better in a smaller venue anyway.

2.  The problem with the bok center where it is lies in the fact that its an economic desert.  Go in, watch your show, leave.  You don't walk past places enticing you to stay and spend your money downtown tulsa before heading back to owasso.  This was the largest complaint of ncaa guests - nothing (to spend their money on) to do near the arena.  You have to look for and travel to before/after entertainment.

There are advantages to where its located, but . . .

3. Aox, your 3 years of profits prediction came after it was proven a success.  It is just a new prediction of failure when you were wrong.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 12:37:27 AM
Bad guess, Sparty.

Here's the deal. WP audience like to cop a buzz but booze ain't their preference. They played BOK and many of their fans got busted because....well, it's Teatown: a no tolerance little hick town and zero tolerance for smoking pot (see:corporate prison outsourcing). Now, they sold 500 advance tickets for an 18,000 seat arena because none of the followers wanted to come here again as word travels about these bad vibe cities.  So, they moved it to Brady and the count is 1000. BFD.

The BOK was a three year term from opening according to my inside sources. Let's see what next year brings. The place has already peaked out. And no cool people will come here much in the future. But hey, there's always Cirque de Sole and the pop and the cuntry. They won't float the boat. The BOK will skid.

BTW, CF...the arema is only 3 blocks from the Blue Dome and/or Brady Franklin districts. To say they are too far away is lame.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 08:28:46 AM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 12:37:27 AM
Bad guess, Sparty.

Here's the deal. WP audience like to cop a buzz but booze ain't their preference. They played BOK and many of their fans got busted because....well, it's Teatown: a no tolerance little hick town and zero tolerance for smoking pot (see:corporate prison outsourcing). Now, they sold 500 advance tickets for an 18,000 seat arena because none of the followers wanted to come here again as word travels about these bad vibe cities.  So, they moved it to Brady and the count is 1000. BFD.

The BOK was a three year term from opening according to my inside sources. Let's see what next year brings. The place has already peaked out. And no cool people will come here much in the future. But hey, there's always Cirque de Sole and the pop and the cuntry. They won't float the boat. The BOK will skid.

BTW, CF...the arema is only 3 blocks from the Blue Dome and/or Brady Franklin districts. To say they are too far away is lame.

Sucks to be wrong, doesn't it?  Spin, spin away.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Jeff P on June 19, 2011, 08:37:19 AM
QuoteThis was the largest complaint of ncaa guests - nothing (to spend their money on) to do near the arena.  You have to look for and travel to before/after entertainment.

Except for the giant tent party right across the street from the arena?

Also - I don't doubt that some guests complained about that.... because... you know... someone will always complain about something.

But I also saw throngs of people walking down 2nd Street toward Blue Dome every day of the tournament... I also saw lots of tournament goers at Blue Dome establishments over the weekend... so a good portion of them figured it out.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Red Arrow on June 19, 2011, 10:10:02 AM
A downtown circulator (real) trolley system would help take the distance out of the BOK from the Brady, Blue Dome...   It would need to have a short headway (time between trolleys) so people would be willing to wait for the next one.  I am aware of the $ factor.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 19, 2011, 10:10:02 AM
A downtown circulator (real) trolley system would help take the distance out of the BOK from the Brady, Blue Dome...   It would need to have a short headway (time between trolleys) so people would be willing to wait for the next one.  I am aware of the $ factor.

100 percent in agreement with this.  They 'sort of' have this now, but it's not a real trolley system.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 11:34:29 AM
Quote from: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 08:28:46 AM
Sucks to be wrong, doesn't it?  Spin, spin away.

So, what portion of dwindling audiences don't you get? (see Fair Meadows article in the abbreviated Tulsa Whirled Sunday edition.....looks like Fair Meadows petered out)....
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 11:34:29 AM
So, what portion of dwindling audiences don't you get? (see Fair Meadows article in the abbreviated Tulsa Whirled Sunday edition.....looks like Fair Meadows petered out)....

Fair Meadows <> BOK Center.

Wow.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 12:09:31 PM
Fair Meadows <> BOK Center.

Wow.

Well, some of us recall the daze when FM was Tulsa's great hope for good fun entertainment <BOK>. Ron Shotts=fail.

Will Bolton bolt?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on June 19, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
Where have you heard that the BOK is slipping under? Of course it's not gonna have AS many big acts as it's first year, because it's not brand new anymore. However, you may recall that it recently won this weird award thingy, something about best management I think. The BOK's managing team is phenomenal and brings in many, many popular events. But I guess if all this changes in the next six months you will be right.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: cannon_fodder on June 19, 2011, 02:38:31 PM
So, AOX, your theory is WP had to change venues because only 500 fans would go to a 20000 seat venue if they couldn't smoke pot - but 1000 fans willl go if they can smoke pot.  You realize that makes no sense. 

Also, from 2nd and Denver to 2nd and Elgin is clearly not 3 blocks.  Please learn to count.

Jeff:

I'm not arguing that  such a distance is too far for me.  I'm stating, as a fact, that crowds of people are far less likely to seek out places to spend money than if they are right there.  See KC light and power. The Excel Energy Center is st. Paul.  The FedEx Forums. Or any number of venues...  they draw people in to spend money and enjoy themselves near those venues.

People unfamiliar with downtown, from bixby  or from boston, may not want to go hunting for a bar.  And that was, by far, the largest item of feedback from the ncaa - in spite of the cities efforts.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on June 19, 2011, 02:56:23 PM
Please please please please, do not smoke pot in the BOK Center. I love the Cain's but my gosh, can barely breathe when you walk in there.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:06:42 PM
Quote from: cannon_fodder on June 19, 2011, 02:38:31 PM
So, AOX, your theory is WP had to change venues because only 500 fans would go to a 20000 seat venue if they couldn't smoke pot - but 1000 fans willl go if they can smoke pot.  You realize that makes no sense. 

Also, from 2nd and Denver to 2nd and Elgin is clearly not 3 blocks.  Please learn to count.


They did not "have" to do anything. The broker/promoter did it. The word among the WP cult got out and some decided to make the trek to Teatown once the venue changed. That probably doesn't make sense to you either because Teatown got black balled which makes you mad. And it's no further from MSG to many points in NYC but we still walk despite the elements because we can. Same in SF (except Oakland) and Chitown (except Rosemont) Don't be so miserable or is it laziness? You're not lame.

zyx: when was the last time you went to Cain's? The floor trash is worse than the smoke....and the constant crowd chatter needs more attention than the smokers because the smokers go outside. Although, some people have been busted for pot inside and outside the Cain's recently by those allied corporate prison pigs.

Stop the war on drugs.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on June 19, 2011, 03:13:10 PM
Quotezyx: when was the last time you went to Cain's?

December 2010

And because of the character of people, and the pot smell, I don't plan to return for a while.
Title: Re: BOK Center (socialist event center)
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:21:31 PM
That's too bad. Try not to be so negative. I'm always amazed how nobody tokes up in the Cain's anymore. Ruins the ambiance.  8) Plus, you may actually catch some future huge stars....

Support the locals....BOK monies tie into LiveNation and the national chain of events. Plus, BOK doesn't feel like a theater show.... it feels oppressive.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: ZYX on June 19, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:21:31 PM
That's too bad. Try not to be so negative. I'm always amazed how nobody tokes up in the Cain's anymore. Ruins the ambiance.  8) Plus, you may actually catch some future huge stars....

Support the locals....BOK monies tie into LiveNation and the national chain of events. Plus, BOK doesn't feel like a theater show.... it feels oppressive.

Don't get me wrong, LOVED the venue, and the band was amazing. I just wish people would lay off the pot and behave themselves in there.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: ZYX on June 19, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
Don't get me wrong, LOVED the venue, and the band was amazing. I just wish people would lay off the pot and behave themselves in there.

And I wish they'd lay off the booze and S T F U. Define "behave" anymore.... >:(
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 04:05:50 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:33:39 PM
And I wish they'd lay off the booze and S T F U. Define "behave" anymore.... >:(

How about not melting down on a public forum and claiming someone hacked your forum account?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Red Arrow on June 19, 2011, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: Hoss on June 19, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
100 percent in agreement with this.  They 'sort of' have this now, but it's not a real trolley system.

A bus is better than nothing.  Is the bus that some people call a trolley still running?  I haven't heard.  What is the time between buses?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 09:31:15 AM
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 19, 2011, 10:10:02 AM
A downtown circulator (real) trolley system would help take the distance out of the BOK from the Brady, Blue Dome...   It would need to have a short headway (time between trolleys) so people would be willing to wait for the next one.  I am aware of the $ factor.

2nd st. would make perfect sense, especially if they would put a multi-level garage just to the east of the PAC.  Run a trolley from BOK/CC to 2nd & Greenwood or even a little further or have it go left from second up to a stop at Archer or even OSU to serve the Greenwood/OSU/OneOk field.  They could also make a left on Denver at the other end from 2nd and go up to 5th or 6th to serve the library and courthouse.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 09:37:30 AM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:06:42 PM
They did not "have" to do anything. The broker/promoter did it. The word among the WP cult got out and some decided to make the trek to Teatown once the venue changed. That probably doesn't make sense to you either because Teatown got black balled which makes you mad. And it's no further from MSG to many points in NYC but we still walk despite the elements because we can. Same in SF (except Oakland) and Chitown (except Rosemont) Don't be so miserable or is it laziness? You're not lame.

zyx: when was the last time you went to Cain's? The floor trash is worse than the smoke....and the constant crowd chatter needs more attention than the smokers because the smokers go outside. Although, some people have been busted for pot inside and outside the Cain's recently by those allied corporate prison pigs.

Stop the war on drugs.

I'm quite certain the rent on the Brady was a good deal less than the BOK. 500 pre-sales?  Would you sit around and hope another 5000 or 6000 show up at the ticket window on the night of the event or move it and face less risk of a huge financial bath? WP has limited market appeal here, they will never sell 5000 tickets in Tulsa, much less fill the BOK.

And Fair Meadows?  Puh-lease, that's not even a remote equal comparison to BOK.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
Went to WSP last night.  Didn't even fill up the Brady.  The main parking lot was only about 75% full, but it made for a nice stroll.  They are so much better in an outside venue.  The sound was oppressive in that little theater.  Not the way WSP is meant to sound.

The amount of herbal medicine being used was really amazing.  The entire place smelled like bong-water and a$$ by the time the show was over.

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 11:50:50 AM
Quote from: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
Went to WSP last night.  Didn't even fill up the Brady.  The main parking lot was only about 75% full, but it made for a nice stroll.  They are so much better in an outside venue.  The sound was oppressive in that little theater.  Not the way WSP is meant to sound.

The amount of herbal medicine being used was really amazing.  The entire place smelled like bong-water and a$$ by the time the show was over.



Contact high?  Lots of Doritos when you got home?
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Hoss on June 20, 2011, 12:16:02 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 11:50:50 AM
Contact high?  Lots of Doritos when you got home?

Cool Ranch Doritoes.  Any other just doesn't do it.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: heironymouspasparagus on June 20, 2011, 01:37:19 PM
What does a bee say??

Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: custosnox on June 20, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: Teatownclown on June 19, 2011, 03:33:39 PM
And I wish they'd lay off the booze and S T F U. Define "behave" anymore.... >:(
so you try to equate drinking to pot smoking because someone drinking near you gets you drunk, right?  Your not exactly making the case that pot doesn't have a long term effect on the mind.

I really don't think that length of the walk from the bok to blue some is really issue. Cities like Seattle, DC and Boston require a lot of walking, but actually have things in place between the destinations. Here the is just a lot of blank walls and surface lots.  That really kills the desire to take a stroll to get to your destination.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 03:09:07 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 11:50:50 AM
Contact high?  Lots of Doritos when you got home?

Late night swim and hot tub to get the patchouli smell off.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Quote from: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 03:09:07 PM
Late night swim and hot tub to get the patchouli smell off.

Hot tub.  Boy there's some bad memories...
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Hot tub.  Boy there's some bad memories...

Therapy.  I recently learned that growing old is painful and now I hear it can be fatal.

Sometimes a hot tub and Sundown Wheat at the end of the day is da Bomb!
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: stageidea on June 20, 2011, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: Gaspar on June 20, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
Went to WSP last night.  Didn't even fill up the Brady.  The main parking lot was only about 75% full, but it made for a nice stroll.  They are so much better in an outside venue.  The sound was oppressive in that little theater.  Not the way WSP is meant to sound.

The amount of herbal medicine being used was really amazing.  The entire place smelled like bong-water and a$$ by the time the show was over.



I went as well.  As soon as the lights went off my entire row seemed to light up something herbal.  Good show overall but I agree that I would prefer to have seen them in an outside venue as well. 
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 20, 2011, 04:59:18 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on June 20, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Hot tub.  Boy there's some bad memories...

;)
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Teatownclown on June 20, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
Quote from: custosnox on June 20, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
  Your not exactly making the case that pot doesn't have a long term effect on the mind.


Got any proof?

Seen Business Week? http://www.businessweek.com/mediacenter/podcasts/cover_stories/covercast_06_17_11.htm

What's the point? I can understand not subjecting innocence to pot smoke. But give me a break about it's adverse affects versus other legal substances.

http://www.slate.com/id/2297195/

END WARS!
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Townsend on November 10, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
BOK Center One Of Six Finalists For Arena Of The Year

http://www.ktul.com/story/16012220/bok-center-one-of-six-finalists-for-arena-of-the-year?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.ktul.com/story/16012220/bok-center-one-of-six-finalists-for-arena-of-the-year?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Tulsa - For the fourth consecutive year, Tulsa's BOK Center is among the finalists for Pollstar's Arena of the Year.

Tulsa is the smallest market to compete for the impressive award, going up against others like Los Angeles' Staples Center, Madison Square Garden in New York City, the Philips Arena in Atlanta, Nashville's Bridgestone Arena and Toronto's Air Canada Centre.

"We are honored to be included in this category with the best facilities in the world," said General Manager John Bolton, who is also nominated for Facility Executive of the Year. "Our continued success is due to the support of Tulsa and the surrounding communities. We're planning another stellar year in our fourth year of operation and are pleased to be recognized for our accomplishments."

The BOK Center opened in 2008 and has hosted some of the biggest concerts in the U.S., with such acts as Lady Gaga, The Eagles, Paul McCartney, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift and Nickelback.

Of the seven acts competing for Pollstar's major tour of the year, three of them -- Lady Gaga, Jason Aldean and Taylor Swift -- will have played the BOK Center this year and a fourth, Roger Waters, will play here in May.

Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Conan71 on November 10, 2011, 10:49:47 PM
So next year we go in the shitter?  Seems like the demise of BOK was predicted for this year.  I guess it's still not enough time for the newness to wear off.

Oh, also heard today that Bassmasters will be here in Feb 2013 and using BOK and the convention center as well as Grand Lake.  Projected uptick to the tax base is $24 million.  Not that Bassmaster's trips my trigger but according to those numbers it could bring in the sort of money the Chili Bowl does even if it's not the same shear excitement level.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: LandArchPoke on November 11, 2011, 01:13:56 AM
Quote from: Conan71 on November 10, 2011, 10:49:47 PM
So next year we go in the shitter?  Seems like the demise of BOK was predicted for this year.  I guess it's still not enough time for the newness to wear off.

Oh, also heard today that Bassmasters will be here in Feb 2013 and using BOK and the convention center as well as Grand Lake.  Projected uptick to the tax base is $24 million.  Not that Bassmaster's trips my trigger but according to those numbers it could bring in the sort of money the Chili Bowl does even if it's not the same shear excitement level.

This is great news, the arena has done so much more for the city (and made money) then I ever thought it could. I hope it keeps going like this for many years to come!  ;D
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: Jeff P on November 14, 2011, 01:13:32 PM
Quote from: Conan71 on November 10, 2011, 10:49:47 PM
So next year we go in the shitter?  Seems like the demise of BOK was predicted for this year.  I guess it's still not enough time for the newness to wear off.

Oh, also heard today that Bassmasters will be here in Feb 2013 and using BOK and the convention center as well as Grand Lake.  Projected uptick to the tax base is $24 million.  Not that Bassmaster's trips my trigger but according to those numbers it could bring in the sort of money the Chili Bowl does even if it's not the same shear excitement level.

Yeah - the Bassmasters thing is a huge deal.

They're expecting 75,000-100,000 people to attend the various events.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: we vs us on November 14, 2011, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: Jeff P on November 14, 2011, 01:13:32 PM
Yeah - the Bassmasters thing is a huge deal.

They're expecting 75,000-100,000 people to attend the various events.

We (hospitality industry) don't have much more info, but from what we know from the VisitTulsa we're projecting a much bigger bump than the NCAA.  This is definitely a big deal.
Title: Re: BOK Center
Post by: JCnOwasso on November 14, 2011, 03:19:20 PM
Quote from: Townsend on November 10, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
...

The BOK Center opened in 2008 and has hosted some of the biggest concerts in the U.S., with such acts as Lady Gaga, The Eagles, Paul McCartney, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift and Nickelback.


"one two of these things are not like the other; come on can you tell me which onetwo"...